Also, I see how it can be easy to take the negatives and make them one's identity. The temptation is to use the negative experiences and let them define who you are and then wrap yourself in them like an old familiar blanket.
When you get to the point that you no longer allow your negative experiences in TWI define who you are, then:
You are no longer a victim.
You have recovered your life.
You have moved on.
You can do that, and still recognize TWI for the evil it is, and continue to speak out about it.
When you get to the point that you no longer allow your negative experiences in TWI define who you are, then:
You are no longer a victim.
You have recovered your life.
You have moved on.
You can do that, and still recognize TWI for the evil it is, and continue to speak out about it.
And some of us had to acknowledge it was not all evil and stop dwelling on the evil to get to the point where we no longer consider ourselves a victim. I guess that is why I no longer feel I should participate in this part of the web site because moving on for me means not repeating the same thing over and over again.
So on that note, I thank you for the conversations folks, and Catcup for how you seemed to understand my intent, especially in this last post of yours, and my best to you all.
Your use of romaticize comes across to me as a means to throw guilt or shame towards the person who had good experiences. Surely you must get my point Groucho. You are not a one sided individual and I know that.
And if you honestly believe that everyone here that has been helped was done so because they abandoned all their good memories in exchange for ones stating nothing good ever came from their time while in twi you are kidding yourself, again I state you are not a one sided individual.
But if that is the requirements to post in this part of Paw's forum then you can have it dear. Because I refuse to state the negatives over and over and over again because it is not healthy for me. And this is not twi where I have to abide by their rules of giving myself over to another's pleasure. I'm using the free will I have been given to take care of me for a change and I will not become bitter and give up my memories of good.
See ya dude!
Heck...I don't have any authority here...I don't list the requirements to post...and my use of the word "romanticize" is used to illustrate my point...not to "throw guilt or shame" at anyone. I think that Catcup said it well, perhaps I was too blunt in stating my position.
Too often, people have carried the burden of "IT WAS MY FAULT" around with them. My intention is to illuminate to them that it was not their fault...they did not fail...twi was wrong. They were manipulated with erroneous ideas and doctrines and by meanspirited people. Chatty....it's not the "good memories" that should be exchanged...it's the memories of self condemnation and guilt that should be replaced. Guilt should be reassigned to the top leaders of twi.
...You say "I refuse to state the negatives over and over and over again because it is not healthy for me"...and I agree. Each person should recognize where their head is at and what is healthy and unhealthy for them. I suppose that I have been out of twi for so long now (20 years), that I remain somewhat "detached" from the twi experience on a personal level...in other words, when I walk away from my computer, I forget about twi until the next time I come back here...I no longer have issues that I deal with.
...and I also understand that there is value in revisiting those times that had been positive experiences. That's why there are a variety of different forums here. GreaseSpot is more than just a forum of exposing twi's evils...it's also a social community where people interact on different levels. We have places where folks discuss food, music, movies, politics, family, etc, etc...we have a place where we honor those who have passed away and a place to pray...some folks love the chat room...others love being silly and telling jokes...and I appreciate the well rounded venue here. I'm not a harsh or bitter person but I AM diligent in my attempts to keep my focus on exposing twi in THIS forum. Like I said, that's why I'm here...and I would never want to impose my own decisions on how to post...on you or anyone else. You have always been free to post how you choose!
In twi, everybody was locked into "groupthink"...opposing views were not debated and everyone was secure in the knowledge that we all believed the same stuff...GreaseSpot is the opposite of that...and because we all think independently, at times there will be opposing views...and that's a GOOD thing. Arguing is not a negative thing (although it CAN be), it shouldn't be. That's why attorney's present their "Arguments" in court...not to be negative but to present their view in contrast to the other view. This allows debate...this is how we learn and advance. I appreciate your unique contributions and would never want you to feel pressured to conform to someone else's agenda...in other words, "do your thing"...I do. :)
Graucho, that was a good post. It's been a quick learning curve for me here at GS, but 'debate' is definitely part of the issue. I haven't been to a twi function since Oslo and that was back about 25 years ago. Even though this has nothing to do with LEAD, the point is, interaction vis a vis what people's experiences were, and the result is not an easy consensus! Fortunately for me, I was never close to the corps (core) of the problem. But I met some of the "players" more than once. <_<
Heck...I don't have any authority here...I don't list the requirements to post...and my use of the word "romanticize" is used to illustrate my point...not to "throw guilt or shame" at anyone. I think that Catcup said it well, perhaps I was too blunt in stating my position.
Too often, people have carried the burden of "IT WAS MY FAULT" around with them. My intention is to illuminate to them that it was not their fault...they did not fail...twi was wrong. They were manipulated with erroneous ideas and doctrines and by meanspirited people. Chatty....it's not the "good memories" that should be exchanged...it's the memories of self condemnation and guilt that should be replaced. Guilt should be reassigned to the top leaders of twi.
...You say "I refuse to state the negatives over and over and over again because it is not healthy for me"...and I agree. Each person should recognize where their head is at and what is healthy and unhealthy for them. I suppose that I have been out of twi for so long now (20 years), that I remain somewhat "detached" from the twi experience on a personal level...in other words, when I walk away from my computer, I forget about twi until the next time I come back here...I no longer have issues that I deal with.
...and I also understand that there is value in revisiting those times that had been positive experiences. That's why there are a variety of different forums here. GreaseSpot is more than just a forum of exposing twi's evils...it's also a social community where people interact on different levels. We have places where folks discuss food, music, movies, politics, family, etc, etc...we have a place where we honor those who have passed away and a place to pray...some folks love the chat room...others love being silly and telling jokes...and I appreciate the well rounded venue here. I'm not a harsh or bitter person but I AM diligent in my attempts to keep my focus on exposing twi in THIS forum. Like I said, that's why I'm here...and I would never want to impose my own decisions on how to post...on you or anyone else. You have always been free to post how you choose!
In twi, everybody was locked into "groupthink"...opposing views were not debated and everyone was secure in the knowledge that we all believed the same stuff...GreaseSpot is the opposite of that...and because we all think independently, at times there will be opposing views...and that's a GOOD thing. Arguing is not a negative thing (although it CAN be), it shouldn't be. That's why attorney's present their "Arguments" in court...not to be negative but to present their view in contrast to the other view. This allows debate...this is how we learn and advance. I appreciate your unique contributions and would never want you to feel pressured to conform to someone else's agenda...in other words, "do your thing"...I do. :)
I was hoping you'd shine through with what I knew you understood, you know I've loved to fight with you since day one, and you gave me exactly what I knew you had inside you in this post Groucho.
Back in May a sherpa climbed to the top of Everest, took ALL of his cloths off and stood naked at the top of the world for just over three minutes. I'm sure this was a positive experience for him which he has been bragging about since. except for the fact that he got a bad case of Penile Frostbite and is now going to lose his joystick, He had fun. The other sherpas and the monks are very upset becasue they have strict rules about exposing their bodies and especially in the presence of their mother goddess. Positive experiences and safety do not necessarily go together and in the category of BLEAD Outdoor Academy this was certainly the case. The ability of the program to provide a positive experience rested in the hands of the staff which in many cases just tore apart people and took great care of others
As I've related, I was allowed to remain in the Corps, but always, always, with a cloud of "spiritual" suspicion over my head. I put one foot in front of the other, and did everything I was told, but things were never the same. I was even allowed to go LEAD my final year-and you know what-I had a great time. Did all the climbs, even the Australian repel (wasn't THAT a hoot). Strangely enough, I have absolutely no memory of getting there or getting back-I just remember the experience once I got there. But it was to be my last good time. A few months later, I was gone.
Top darlin', This just chaps my hide! You were "allowed to remain" in the Corps. What a wacked system! You write very well, I was very moved by your post. If you ever feel that there is something that I can do for you...just ask.
Also, I see how it can be easy to take the negatives and make them one's identity. The temptation is to use the negative experiences and let them define who you are and then wrap yourself in them like an old familiar blanket. Sometimes the pain is so intense and so familiar that it seems almost better to hold on to that pain because at least you know what that feels like.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I hope that the constant shouting from the rooftops of TWI's evils help even one person to see that the negatives they endured under a heavy-handed, greed-driven ministry will help them to finally throw that old blanket out.
Absolutely! Throwing that blanket out is really hard, but it is easier if you go get yourself a new one that's softer and better. The pain we have endured does help define us. As Top said it does help shape us into who we are. We cannot change our pasts, but we can use what we learned from them to help us build a better future.
The ability of the program to provide a positive experience rested in the hands of the staff which in many cases just tore apart people and took great care of others
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Catcup
When you get to the point that you no longer allow your negative experiences in TWI define who you are, then:
You are no longer a victim.
You have recovered your life.
You have moved on.
You can do that, and still recognize TWI for the evil it is, and continue to speak out about it.
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Catcup
Top,
You are a truly courageous person.
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doojable
Well said!
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doojable
Hammeroni remembered this phrase in another thread:
"Preparation is the highest form of believing"?
Okay, sooooo...
Where was the believing for all vpw's "kids" when TWI didn't prepare. I said that because he used to call us "his kids."
Usually when problems arise, things get reevaluated.
Food for thought....
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ChattyKathy
And some of us had to acknowledge it was not all evil and stop dwelling on the evil to get to the point where we no longer consider ourselves a victim. I guess that is why I no longer feel I should participate in this part of the web site because moving on for me means not repeating the same thing over and over again.
So on that note, I thank you for the conversations folks, and Catcup for how you seemed to understand my intent, especially in this last post of yours, and my best to you all.
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excathedra
dear toppie, nothingi can really say
except i admire you and you are so special to me
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GrouchoMarxJr
Heck...I don't have any authority here...I don't list the requirements to post...and my use of the word "romanticize" is used to illustrate my point...not to "throw guilt or shame" at anyone. I think that Catcup said it well, perhaps I was too blunt in stating my position.
Too often, people have carried the burden of "IT WAS MY FAULT" around with them. My intention is to illuminate to them that it was not their fault...they did not fail...twi was wrong. They were manipulated with erroneous ideas and doctrines and by meanspirited people. Chatty....it's not the "good memories" that should be exchanged...it's the memories of self condemnation and guilt that should be replaced. Guilt should be reassigned to the top leaders of twi.
...You say "I refuse to state the negatives over and over and over again because it is not healthy for me"...and I agree. Each person should recognize where their head is at and what is healthy and unhealthy for them. I suppose that I have been out of twi for so long now (20 years), that I remain somewhat "detached" from the twi experience on a personal level...in other words, when I walk away from my computer, I forget about twi until the next time I come back here...I no longer have issues that I deal with.
...and I also understand that there is value in revisiting those times that had been positive experiences. That's why there are a variety of different forums here. GreaseSpot is more than just a forum of exposing twi's evils...it's also a social community where people interact on different levels. We have places where folks discuss food, music, movies, politics, family, etc, etc...we have a place where we honor those who have passed away and a place to pray...some folks love the chat room...others love being silly and telling jokes...and I appreciate the well rounded venue here. I'm not a harsh or bitter person but I AM diligent in my attempts to keep my focus on exposing twi in THIS forum. Like I said, that's why I'm here...and I would never want to impose my own decisions on how to post...on you or anyone else. You have always been free to post how you choose!
In twi, everybody was locked into "groupthink"...opposing views were not debated and everyone was secure in the knowledge that we all believed the same stuff...GreaseSpot is the opposite of that...and because we all think independently, at times there will be opposing views...and that's a GOOD thing. Arguing is not a negative thing (although it CAN be), it shouldn't be. That's why attorney's present their "Arguments" in court...not to be negative but to present their view in contrast to the other view. This allows debate...this is how we learn and advance. I appreciate your unique contributions and would never want you to feel pressured to conform to someone else's agenda...in other words, "do your thing"...I do. :)
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Bumpy
Graucho, that was a good post. It's been a quick learning curve for me here at GS, but 'debate' is definitely part of the issue. I haven't been to a twi function since Oslo and that was back about 25 years ago. Even though this has nothing to do with LEAD, the point is, interaction vis a vis what people's experiences were, and the result is not an easy consensus! Fortunately for me, I was never close to the corps (core) of the problem. But I met some of the "players" more than once. <_<
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ChattyKathy
I was hoping you'd shine through with what I knew you understood, you know I've loved to fight with you since day one, and you gave me exactly what I knew you had inside you in this post Groucho.
(((((you)))))
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ex10
Hi, lovely Topoftheworld. As I was reading your post, I couldn't help but think how we've come full circle? in the past 2 and a half years.
I love you immensely, intensely, relentlessly, my friend. Thanks for showing up here. Your voice counts.
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rascal
(((Topper))) Thank you for being willing to share your perspective. Your posts have had far reaching impact on so many of us.
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Out There
Back in May a sherpa climbed to the top of Everest, took ALL of his cloths off and stood naked at the top of the world for just over three minutes. I'm sure this was a positive experience for him which he has been bragging about since. except for the fact that he got a bad case of Penile Frostbite and is now going to lose his joystick, He had fun. The other sherpas and the monks are very upset becasue they have strict rules about exposing their bodies and especially in the presence of their mother goddess. Positive experiences and safety do not necessarily go together and in the category of BLEAD Outdoor Academy this was certainly the case. The ability of the program to provide a positive experience rested in the hands of the staff which in many cases just tore apart people and took great care of others
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Eyesopen
Top darlin', This just chaps my hide! You were "allowed to remain" in the Corps. What a wacked system! You write very well, I was very moved by your post. If you ever feel that there is something that I can do for you...just ask.
Absolutely! Throwing that blanket out is really hard, but it is easier if you go get yourself a new one that's softer and better. The pain we have endured does help define us. As Top said it does help shape us into who we are. We cannot change our pasts, but we can use what we learned from them to help us build a better future.
Hence the problem with my LEAD experience.
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J0nny Ling0
Ouch! Oh man! Out There! You shouldn't told us about that Sherpa! What an idiot!
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Out There
yea. remember that movie that was out a few years back -- "Freeze Your Willie"
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waysider
Sounds more like "The Rise And Fall Of Mankind".
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Out There
LOL LOL LOL
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