My 2 cents: <snip>The point, though, is that it's the practises, not the participants or their experiences that should be scrutinized.
Actually we can evaluate what occurs when someone practices something whether it's something we should likewise do. Like I said -- I personally think people who climb mountains or do sky-diving or race nutty. I think it's too risky and wouldn't do it. People who climb mountains should know that some people who climb mountains have died doing so. Knowing that -- it's your choice and no one else's. If that means you won't get the "prize" then your ego might be bruised but, your life will be intact.
Actually we can evaluate what occurs when someone practices something whether it's something we should likewise do. Like I said -- I personally think people who climb mountains or do sky-diving or race nutty. I think it's too risky and wouldn't do it. People who climb mountains should know that some people who climb mountains have died doing so. Knowing that -- it's your choice and no one else's. If that means you won't get the "prize" then your ego might be bruised but, your life will be intact.
I understand that doojable. I once considered going into the Corp. In fact many expected me to back in the early seventies. I made the decision NOT to because I knew I could never do some of the things that would be expected of me. Some people thought I was making a mistake because they believed God was "calling" me to the Corp. I remember telling them that I just couldn't do it and if that bothered them then they would have to learn how to deal with it.
And Tonto! Ugghh! That was disgusting! And, I don't remember that from CF and S. Was it really there, and I just don't remember it? Uggh?
Yes, it was disgusting and it was one of the long list of euphamisims for anu s rattled off by the manofgodfortheworld in CF&S circa 1975. He said we needed to know these words so we wouldn't be shocked if someone used them. I gave that example because I believe some men don't "get" what rape is unless they can think in terms of it happening to them. Well, enough of that.
Yes, LEAD was required for the corps...the only person in our corps who didn't have to go was a young mom with a heart condition. Everyone else went.
I knew LEAD was required when I went in. That's not the problem. The problem is that the shi+ that happened on the road happened because twi/vpw was too cheap to provide safe transportation. If they had provided a bus for us and a semi crossed the median and slammed into our bus head-on and killed us, then that would have been a tragedy but yes, shi+ happens.
If, however, they provided a bus with worn breaks (because money for new breaks wasn't in the budget) and the breaks failed while the bus was going down the mountain, resulting in our deaths, that's not in the catagory of "shi+ happens". That's negligence.
Remembering the good times in twi is fine with me...just realize that most of the bad happened not by chance, but as a result of the greed and lust of vpw/lcm/etc.
If, however, they provided a bus with worn breaks (because money for new breaks wasn't in the budget) and the breaks failed while the bus was going down the mountain, resulting in our deaths, that's not in the catagory of "shi+ happens". That's negligence.
That's a big IF. I have a hard time giving much weight to IF's. Now IF you have proof that they knew the breaks were in need of being replaced and IF you have documentation that such a scenario (that you described) actually happened -- then I would say you have a point.
I do have a point Larry. They didn't even provide a dam n bus. They were too cheap. They knew hitching was illegal and dangerous but they required us to hitch.
I do have a point Larry. They didn't even provide a dam n bus. They were too cheap. They knew hitching was illegal and dangerous but they required us to hitch.
It's all about the money.
I'm aware of the point that you were making but, (from first hand experience) I know that accusing someone of a crime is not the same as evidence that they actually committed the crime. You prefaced your scenario with an IF. I would agree that IF they did what you accused them of you would have a point. But an IF doesn't amount to much. Documentation is more persuasive.
knew LEAD was required when I went in. That's not the problem. The problem is that the shi+ that happened on the road happened because twi/vpw was too cheap to provide safe transportation. If they had provided a bus for us and a semi crossed the median and slammed into our bus head-on and killed us, then that would have been a tragedy but yes, shi+ happens.
If, however, they provided a bus with worn breaks (because money for new breaks wasn't in the budget) and the breaks failed while the bus was going down the mountain, resulting in our deaths, that's not in the catagory of "shi+ happens". That's negligence.
Point well taken Tonto. However, I don't think it was about being "cheap". I think the hitch hiking part was about the challenge that it provided. I mean, I believe that they believed that, misguided as it may have been. Sure there was money saved. But, I think that it was done that way to provide a real challenge, just the way that Special Forces (Green Beret Navy Seals, etc) use live ammunition during training exercises, which is very very dangerous. Now, mind you EVERYBODY WHO IS READING, I am not endorsing that idea as a good idea, I am only saying that I think that having us hitch hike had more to do with the challenge, then it had to do with saving money, that's all.
I understand what you're saying Jonny. I believe that the challenge was part of it, but I still believe the driving force was the money saved. We'll just agree to disagree...no biggie.
I can't believe I stayed up this late...T-Bone is in there snoozing away...probably dreaming up more stuff for "just plain silly" or "doctrine", or "silly doctrine".
I just wanted to point out that hitch-hiking, at least until the early 80's was NOT illegal. It is only illegal to walk on the freeway. If you stand at the top of the ramp with your thumb out, you are not breaking the law. I know...I got a ticket for it in 82, just outside of Columbus, Ohio. The cop was a nasty pr-ck...took me a few miles down the road, passing a number off on-ramps and dropped me off in the middle of nowhere, on a ramp that had maybe 5 cars an hour go by.
Now in light of all the freaks and serial killers in the world, the laws might have changed. But it's around 4:30 in the morning and I'm still not awake enough to mess around googeling it.
***DISCLAIMER....I am NOT condoning hitching, or saying it's safe, or saying it SHOULD have been required by the way, nor am I saying ANYTHING positive about the way, way corp, lead, George Bush, or Republicans in any way, shape or form. Does that cover everything that anyone could yell at me about?
Good one Rick. I got it. Made me laugh too! I just came in from playing my harmonicas at the the bar. BLUES, as a matter of fact. Fine evening, and at 0230, I don't want to google anyhting either. Nad os, have a great day tomorrow. I am too tired to proof read, sorrry...
Seriously though...Anyone who wants to post about their positive experiences in twi is free to do so, always has been. Nobody can stop you from doing this...if you feel that way, then by all means, post about it...BUT, expect criticism...for surely it will come. Why?...simple. The GreaseSpot is primarily set up to be an expose of twi's lies and manipulations and harm they did to other people. There are many here who are interested in seeing the abuse of people, that are currently still in twi, come to a stop. I personally would not mind seeing twi dissolve as an entity...Therefore, I focus on the goal...to expose them...to let other people know how manipulative and abusive this cult is.
I was in twi for 13 years and of course I can remember positive experiences that I had in twi...one of them was that I met some really fine people...most of the rank and file were sincere godly people...but romanticizing about the good times does little to further my goal of exposing this dangerous cult...and that's why I'm here.
Everyone has their own reason why they are here...personally, I feel that my attitude fits with the "mission statement" of this website...so to speak. This place exists primarily to expose the abuse of twi...and many of us feel strongly about contributing to that flow...not to be "negative"...but to provide a resource for others to learn of the dangers...it's to help people. Many newcomers arrive here to discover the "other side of the coin"...and many have been delivered from guilt and confusion and gone through the process of recovery, due in part to the information they learned here at the GreaseSpot....and I'm talking about the abuse, the manipulation, the uncaring attitudes, the sexual debauchery, the wrong doctrines, the damaging programs. People who were or are involved with twi deserve to know the truth...
If people want to relate their positive experiences, romaticize about the good old days and emphasis the "good" in twi...go for it, but that's not why I'm here.
I've never said my experience in TWi was pure hell. I was in for twenty years. But much of that time was striving for a false standard of abundant life and never making the mark--or perhaps fleetingly, here and there. Good dog. Here's a treat.
Seriously though...Anyone who wants to post about their positive experiences in twi is free to do so, always has been. Nobody can stop you from doing this...if you feel that way, then by all means, post about it...BUT, expect criticism...for surely it will come. Why?...simple. The GreaseSpot is primarily set up to be an expose of twi's lies and manipulations and harm they did to other people. There are many here who are interested in seeing the abuse of people, that are currently still in twi, come to a stop. I personally would not mind seeing twi dissolve as an entity...Therefore, I focus on the goal...to expose them...to let other people know how manipulative and abusive this cult is.
I was in twi for 13 years and of course I can remember positive experiences that I had in twi...one of them was that I met some really fine people...most of the rank and file were sincere godly people...but romanticizing about the good times does little to further my goal of exposing this dangerous cult...and that's why I'm here.
Everyone has their own reason why they are here...personally, I feel that my attitude fits with the "mission statement" of this website...so to speak. This place exists primarily to expose the abuse of twi...and many of us feel strongly about contributing to that flow...not to be "negative"...but to provide a resource for others to learn of the dangers...it's to help people. Many newcomers arrive here to discover the "other side of the coin"...and many have been delivered from guilt and confusion and gone through the process of recovery, due in part to the information they learned here at the GreaseSpot....and I'm talking about the abuse, the manipulation, the uncaring attitudes, the sexual debauchery, the wrong doctrines, the damaging programs. People who were or are involved with twi deserve to know the truth...
If people want to relate their positive experiences, romaticize about the good old days and emphasis the "good" in twi...go for it, but that's not why I'm here.
Your use of romaticize comes across to me as a means to throw guilt or shame towards the person who had good experiences. Surely you must get my point Groucho. You are not a one sided individual and I know that.
And if you honestly believe that everyone here that has been helped was done so because they abandoned all their good memories in exchange for ones stating nothing good ever came from their time while in twi you are kidding yourself, again I state you are not a one sided individual.
But if that is the requirements to post in this part of Paw's forum then you can have it dear. Because I refuse to state the negatives over and over and over again because it is not healthy for me. And this is not twi where I have to abide by their rules of giving myself over to another's pleasure. I'm using the free will I have been given to take care of me for a change and I will not become bitter and give up my memories of good.
The reality is, my experiences in TWI were both good and bad. The sweet times were exceptionally sweet and the bad times were exceptionally bad.
If I were to weigh them in a scale, I would have to say that the good times are far outweighed by the bad in both number, and in severity. So over all, it was a negative experience for me, and many others.
Some of the good times, I look back on now, and I understand the "good" I thought it was, was due to my being deceived. It wasn't good at all, it was based on falsehoods.
But some of the good times, were genuine. Mostly they revolved around individual people with really genuine hearts to love God and his people. These people were generally my peers or subordinates, and rarely leadership. Looking back on it, I cannot attribute any of the good times to the organization itself, but individual people, and the fact that God can reach into the depths of hell to answer your prayers and bless you. (That doesn't mean it is His will that you STAY in the depths of hell.)
The bad times, however, revolved around both individual people AND the organization of The Way International itself. The bad times mostly originated in the institutionalized lies and corrupt policies of The Way International organization itself, combined with people who I believe were motivated by pure evil, greed, self gain, and self aggrandizement. That, my folks, is the stark reality of The Way International and it's internal workings. And exposing that is my primary purpose for being here.
That doesn't mean I don't believe God did not and cannot bless people while they are in the organization. And I do not discount that God can't teach you something while he is ALSO trying to lead you out of the hell hole. I just don't believe God wants people IN TWI, I believe he was always, and still is, calling people OUT of it.
So I am not going to "p i $$" on anyone's blessing, as long as they can keep it in perspective. My "blessing" does not negate the fact the organization itself was evil, promoted evil people, and caused an immense amount of suffering to untold numbers of individuals.
I don't have a problem with people who admit they learned a few things and had some positive experiences, yet acknowlege that this organization was toxic and hurt a lot of people.
I have problems with people who minimize or ignore the damage caused by TWI, its founder, its structure, its doctrine, and its policies.
Your blessing does not negate the harm done to others, and the harm done to others doesn't demean your personal experience.
As long as we understand, that when weighed in the balance, TWI comes up wanting.
I have a problem with the people who think that because they had a mostly positive experience, everyone else must be exaggerating.
So I am not going to "p i $$" on anyone's blessing, as long as they can keep it in perspective. My "blessing" does not negate the fact the organization itself was evil, promoted evil people, and caused an immense amount of suffering to untold numbers of individuals.
I don't have a problem with people who admit they learned a few things and had some positive experiences, yet acknowlege that this organization was toxic and hurt a lot of people.
I have problems with people who minimize or ignore the damage caused by TWI, its founder, its structure, its doctrine, and its policies.
Your blessing does not negate the harm done to others, and the harm done to others doesn't demean your personal experience.
As long as we understand, that when weighed in the balance, TWI comes up wanting.
I have a problem with the people who think that because they had a mostly positive experience, everyone else must be exaggerating.
This speaks to how I feel.
Also, I see how it can be easy to take the negatives and make them one's identity. The temptation is to use the negative experiences and let them define who you are and then wrap yourself in them like an old familiar blanket. Sometimes the pain is so intense and so familiar that it seems almost better to hold on to that pain because at least you know what that feels like.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I hope that the constant shouting from the rooftops of TWI's evils help even one person to see that the negatives they endured under a heavy-handed, greed-driven ministry will help them to finally throw that old blanket out.
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Larry N Moore
Then that would be equally stupid of you.
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waysider
My 2 cents:
I think it is possible to criticize the program itself without criticizing the participants or their experiences.
Hitching is a good example.
Many people hitched and never had a bad experience with it.
Still, that doesn't lend credability to the actual practise of hitching.
Hitching is not a safe method of transportation.(and it's illegal)
I'm not criticizing those who have done it, I'm criticizing the practise of requiring people to do it.
And the list goes on . The point, though, is that it's the practises,not the participants or their experiences that should be scrutinized.
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ChattyKathy
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Larry N Moore
Actually we can evaluate what occurs when someone practices something whether it's something we should likewise do. Like I said -- I personally think people who climb mountains or do sky-diving or race nutty. I think it's too risky and wouldn't do it. People who climb mountains should know that some people who climb mountains have died doing so. Knowing that -- it's your choice and no one else's. If that means you won't get the "prize" then your ego might be bruised but, your life will be intact.
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doojable
And LEAD was required for the Corps.....
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Larry N Moore
I understand that doojable. I once considered going into the Corp. In fact many expected me to back in the early seventies. I made the decision NOT to because I knew I could never do some of the things that would be expected of me. Some people thought I was making a mistake because they believed God was "calling" me to the Corp. I remember telling them that I just couldn't do it and if that bothered them then they would have to learn how to deal with it.
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tonto
Jonny said:
Yes, it was disgusting and it was one of the long list of euphamisims for anu s rattled off by the manofgodfortheworld in CF&S circa 1975. He said we needed to know these words so we wouldn't be shocked if someone used them. I gave that example because I believe some men don't "get" what rape is unless they can think in terms of it happening to them. Well, enough of that.
Yes, LEAD was required for the corps...the only person in our corps who didn't have to go was a young mom with a heart condition. Everyone else went.
I knew LEAD was required when I went in. That's not the problem. The problem is that the shi+ that happened on the road happened because twi/vpw was too cheap to provide safe transportation. If they had provided a bus for us and a semi crossed the median and slammed into our bus head-on and killed us, then that would have been a tragedy but yes, shi+ happens.
If, however, they provided a bus with worn breaks (because money for new breaks wasn't in the budget) and the breaks failed while the bus was going down the mountain, resulting in our deaths, that's not in the catagory of "shi+ happens". That's negligence.
Remembering the good times in twi is fine with me...just realize that most of the bad happened not by chance, but as a result of the greed and lust of vpw/lcm/etc.
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Larry N Moore
That's a big IF. I have a hard time giving much weight to IF's. Now IF you have proof that they knew the breaks were in need of being replaced and IF you have documentation that such a scenario (that you described) actually happened -- then I would say you have a point.
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tonto
I do have a point Larry. They didn't even provide a dam n bus. They were too cheap. They knew hitching was illegal and dangerous but they required us to hitch.
It's all about the money.
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Larry N Moore
I'm aware of the point that you were making but, (from first hand experience) I know that accusing someone of a crime is not the same as evidence that they actually committed the crime. You prefaced your scenario with an IF. I would agree that IF they did what you accused them of you would have a point. But an IF doesn't amount to much. Documentation is more persuasive.
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J0nny Ling0
I
Point well taken Tonto. However, I don't think it was about being "cheap". I think the hitch hiking part was about the challenge that it provided. I mean, I believe that they believed that, misguided as it may have been. Sure there was money saved. But, I think that it was done that way to provide a real challenge, just the way that Special Forces (Green Beret Navy Seals, etc) use live ammunition during training exercises, which is very very dangerous. Now, mind you EVERYBODY WHO IS READING, I am not endorsing that idea as a good idea, I am only saying that I think that having us hitch hike had more to do with the challenge, then it had to do with saving money, that's all.
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tonto
I understand what you're saying Jonny. I believe that the challenge was part of it, but I still believe the driving force was the money saved. We'll just agree to disagree...no biggie.
I can't believe I stayed up this late...T-Bone is in there snoozing away...probably dreaming up more stuff for "just plain silly" or "doctrine", or "silly doctrine".
Nighty-nite.
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Bluzeman
I just wanted to point out that hitch-hiking, at least until the early 80's was NOT illegal. It is only illegal to walk on the freeway. If you stand at the top of the ramp with your thumb out, you are not breaking the law. I know...I got a ticket for it in 82, just outside of Columbus, Ohio. The cop was a nasty pr-ck...took me a few miles down the road, passing a number off on-ramps and dropped me off in the middle of nowhere, on a ramp that had maybe 5 cars an hour go by.
Now in light of all the freaks and serial killers in the world, the laws might have changed. But it's around 4:30 in the morning and I'm still not awake enough to mess around googeling it.
***DISCLAIMER....I am NOT condoning hitching, or saying it's safe, or saying it SHOULD have been required by the way, nor am I saying ANYTHING positive about the way, way corp, lead, George Bush, or Republicans in any way, shape or form. Does that cover everything that anyone could yell at me about?
Rick
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J0nny Ling0
Good one Rick. I got it. Made me laugh too! I just came in from playing my harmonicas at the the bar. BLUES, as a matter of fact. Fine evening, and at 0230, I don't want to google anyhting either. Nad os, have a great day tomorrow. I am too tired to proof read, sorrry...
Jenny lingo
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GrouchoMarxJr
Jenny lingo???...Dare we ask what you wore to the bar?...
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GrouchoMarxJr
Seriously though...Anyone who wants to post about their positive experiences in twi is free to do so, always has been. Nobody can stop you from doing this...if you feel that way, then by all means, post about it...BUT, expect criticism...for surely it will come. Why?...simple. The GreaseSpot is primarily set up to be an expose of twi's lies and manipulations and harm they did to other people. There are many here who are interested in seeing the abuse of people, that are currently still in twi, come to a stop. I personally would not mind seeing twi dissolve as an entity...Therefore, I focus on the goal...to expose them...to let other people know how manipulative and abusive this cult is.
I was in twi for 13 years and of course I can remember positive experiences that I had in twi...one of them was that I met some really fine people...most of the rank and file were sincere godly people...but romanticizing about the good times does little to further my goal of exposing this dangerous cult...and that's why I'm here.
Everyone has their own reason why they are here...personally, I feel that my attitude fits with the "mission statement" of this website...so to speak. This place exists primarily to expose the abuse of twi...and many of us feel strongly about contributing to that flow...not to be "negative"...but to provide a resource for others to learn of the dangers...it's to help people. Many newcomers arrive here to discover the "other side of the coin"...and many have been delivered from guilt and confusion and gone through the process of recovery, due in part to the information they learned here at the GreaseSpot....and I'm talking about the abuse, the manipulation, the uncaring attitudes, the sexual debauchery, the wrong doctrines, the damaging programs. People who were or are involved with twi deserve to know the truth...
If people want to relate their positive experiences, romaticize about the good old days and emphasis the "good" in twi...go for it, but that's not why I'm here.
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excathedra
bow wow
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Danny
Well old Craig and D Bob And D and a few other stole a van
from HQ to go so they wouldn't have to hitch.
It broke So guess what the rented a car or something like that
Some flew home. veepee was not to happy but this was not a published fact.
Some Ford place in New Mex put a new motor and so someone else had to go pick it up.
Oh yea they ran the place. Christmas week of 80.
They slept in beds and showered every day.
Did not climb.
Yea did I tell you they ran the place.
So who is full of sheet or what.
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excathedra
how did ol' veepee do with his believing up there on the big rock
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ChattyKathy
Your use of romaticize comes across to me as a means to throw guilt or shame towards the person who had good experiences. Surely you must get my point Groucho. You are not a one sided individual and I know that.
And if you honestly believe that everyone here that has been helped was done so because they abandoned all their good memories in exchange for ones stating nothing good ever came from their time while in twi you are kidding yourself, again I state you are not a one sided individual.
But if that is the requirements to post in this part of Paw's forum then you can have it dear. Because I refuse to state the negatives over and over and over again because it is not healthy for me. And this is not twi where I have to abide by their rules of giving myself over to another's pleasure. I'm using the free will I have been given to take care of me for a change and I will not become bitter and give up my memories of good.
See ya dude!
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Danny
That was a good one God got me there because I
had some money for a wow.
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Catcup
How do I feel about this stuff? It's a mixed bag.
The reality is, my experiences in TWI were both good and bad. The sweet times were exceptionally sweet and the bad times were exceptionally bad.
If I were to weigh them in a scale, I would have to say that the good times are far outweighed by the bad in both number, and in severity. So over all, it was a negative experience for me, and many others.
Some of the good times, I look back on now, and I understand the "good" I thought it was, was due to my being deceived. It wasn't good at all, it was based on falsehoods.
But some of the good times, were genuine. Mostly they revolved around individual people with really genuine hearts to love God and his people. These people were generally my peers or subordinates, and rarely leadership. Looking back on it, I cannot attribute any of the good times to the organization itself, but individual people, and the fact that God can reach into the depths of hell to answer your prayers and bless you. (That doesn't mean it is His will that you STAY in the depths of hell.)
The bad times, however, revolved around both individual people AND the organization of The Way International itself. The bad times mostly originated in the institutionalized lies and corrupt policies of The Way International organization itself, combined with people who I believe were motivated by pure evil, greed, self gain, and self aggrandizement. That, my folks, is the stark reality of The Way International and it's internal workings. And exposing that is my primary purpose for being here.
That doesn't mean I don't believe God did not and cannot bless people while they are in the organization. And I do not discount that God can't teach you something while he is ALSO trying to lead you out of the hell hole. I just don't believe God wants people IN TWI, I believe he was always, and still is, calling people OUT of it.
So I am not going to "p i $$" on anyone's blessing, as long as they can keep it in perspective. My "blessing" does not negate the fact the organization itself was evil, promoted evil people, and caused an immense amount of suffering to untold numbers of individuals.
I don't have a problem with people who admit they learned a few things and had some positive experiences, yet acknowlege that this organization was toxic and hurt a lot of people.
I have problems with people who minimize or ignore the damage caused by TWI, its founder, its structure, its doctrine, and its policies.
Your blessing does not negate the harm done to others, and the harm done to others doesn't demean your personal experience.
As long as we understand, that when weighed in the balance, TWI comes up wanting.
I have a problem with the people who think that because they had a mostly positive experience, everyone else must be exaggerating.
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ChattyKathy
Catcup,
You get me!
Thank you for that.
Kathy
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doojable
This speaks to how I feel.
Also, I see how it can be easy to take the negatives and make them one's identity. The temptation is to use the negative experiences and let them define who you are and then wrap yourself in them like an old familiar blanket. Sometimes the pain is so intense and so familiar that it seems almost better to hold on to that pain because at least you know what that feels like.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I hope that the constant shouting from the rooftops of TWI's evils help even one person to see that the negatives they endured under a heavy-handed, greed-driven ministry will help them to finally throw that old blanket out.
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