I never intended to dispute anyone's positive experience or refute the fact that people did, in fact, come away with some valuable lessons learned. If I came across that way, I apologize.
TFI, that was the place...’75 or ‘76! A group of us went from the bay area with the objective of learning a little rock climbing and repelling. Well, different strokes for different folks, and after a little canvassing of the rock surfaces it was time to, “Let go and let Go...”
So for the uninitiated, going over a cliff in your leather harness with a rope running through the carabiners for the FIRST time, can cause some to manifest that spiritual creature called FEAR! Such was the case with our housemate “Craig”.
Craig whose real name was Greg, had Mr. Fear written all over his face and refused to go over. But whoever was in charge that day was going to have none of that. I remember after my turn of bouncing down the wall, looking up maybe 50 ft., that things were slowing down. So up I went. There was Greg in a white “cable” sweater refusing to move.
To make an interesting moment as short as possible, Greg was forced over and seemed to get about 1/2 way down when the devil in the form of a nice cable knit sweater got caught with the rope in the carabiner. So there is Greg, FROZEN with fear, his face to the wall, with absolutely no way to go up or down. And the sweater firmly through the metal hooks tied in knots!
Are GSC members now being subjected to "reproof", of sorts, by other members, for having had positive (twi) experiences ?
Should we be guilt- ridden because we liked something about it? had a laugh? learned something?
If something in TWI blessed someone , are they "Less" in here because their posts are not as bloody and horrific?
THIS IS MADNESS
CONSTANT NEGATIVITY BUILDS NOTHING GOOD
I know this is NOT the "Here's why I loved TWI ..." website.
I get that...but
If a guy had an awesome time at LEAD...( or any other TWI class, event, teaching, etc.) Can't you guys just let
him/her have that ? Can relaying ANY positive be so wrong?
Does any positive post HAVE to be taken apart line by line??
Casually trying to ensure that EVERY post in here is negative seems a little "cultish" to me.
Not to mention... a real downer.
for example: I know you thought _____ was positive, but REALLY it was negative. It was bad. Bad things happened.
You really had no business enjoying yourself and should ,probably, feel badly for doing so.
strangely familiar to anyone else ???
Don't have your own thoughts or feelings.
God forbid,you were ever blessed.
I too, had a freakin' AWESOME LEAD. no apologies!
It's why I don't frequent this part of the web site much anymore. This thread kept showing up as the last one posted to on the General page and it caught my attention and I thought I would stumble in here and read it. But the fact is that despite my personal h3lls while with that group there are things I am still thankful for, experiences I still cherish and I'm exactly where I am today because I had some of them to go through. Which does not mean I would return to them, nor does it mean I think they are a godly group. But I did have positive things that I refuse to apologize for or to subtract from my memories because another person had bad experiences. If I were to take away all my good experiences because someone else had a bad experience I would become bitter and I refuse to go in that direction.
Because some of us had blessings does not mean we support twi, it simply is the truth and the fact that we should be ashamed and hide it has been a good part of running me out of this part of Paw's web site.
THis thread could have been subtitled = 'The Good, The Bad and the Ugly' . BLEAD has many fond memories for people and many horrors for others. I don't think that any other 14 days in the corps had as big an impact on people's lives as these. I had some very good times out there and I had some horrors. No matter how you look at it though you will find that the TWI was negligent in the protection they provided the participants of the program. I think that the liability waivers that they provided to anyone who suffered any kind of injury after the fact was a little underhanded and today the idea of having to sign one under duress would probably get some attention from the legal community. (Here sign this and I'm sure you'll get to graduate from the corps)
Todays litigious spociety would never stand for the way people were put into harms way bv having them hitchhike 36 hours or the way someone 60 years old would be expected to perform to a standard set by a 20 year old. the older I get the more I can see the difference in what people are capable of. Tomorrow I have a 25 year old female client. I'm going to have to really push to give her a satisfying experience (on the rocks). Boy. life can be hard as we found at BLEAD but it can also be very satisfying.
I think there's a mentality that develops here that says....
"If you had a good experience that's great, but don't share it because because it's like celebrating in the end zone."
MY take on the whole matter is that my life is just that - MINE. (Yes - I know that God has me as well, but I'm talking about something else.) I had some good experiences - but that doesn't mean that the program was a good program. It only means that I had good experiences.
I think that the problem that some folks have is that if too many people speak of their good experiences, it somehow takes those who were hurt, or killed, or committed suicide and puts them right back into that box labeled "Unbelieving Loser." I doubt highly that anyone here feels that way about those we've lost through tragedies in LEAD or otherwise.
Each and every person has value. Every brother and sister that we lost because of an accident brought on TWI's negligence deserved better. I understand that while I was out having a good experience someone else may have been hurt, and that grieves me to no end. I truly wish it had grieved those with the power to change the programs and make them safer.
I guess that some would say that our "good experiences" came at too high a price. I tend to believe that. It's not that I regret having those good moments, it's that I choose to not celebrate them publically.
I choose to celebrate them publicly, not hide them from those who ask questions about it. If I didn't celebrate them publicly, then those who ask about them publicly would only hear the negatives.
And remember once again that I did say this, and I'll say it for the second time::
And now, with all of that said, make sure to go back and read my posts where I did in fact say that I thought that errors were made, that certain people should not have been given leadership positions at LEAD, and that I thought that LEAD should have not been a requirement in The Way Corps training program, but rather an option like the High Country Rodeo School
My farside calendar the other day had a guy whistling while working in hell. The caption had the devil saying "We just aren't getting through to that guy" There are good times to be had anywhere and under almost any circumstances. I don't take away from the good times I had at Tinnie. I do condemm the way they ran the program though. their idea was the same as tearing down the old waste places of Isaiah but they didn't realize that not everyone had evil in their heart and needed to be torn down. they found wrong with everyone in both groups I was in and tried to tell everyone else what their problem was. My first year the whole group was rounded up and a face melting was instore for everyone "DON'T EVER LET YOUR MIND ENTERTAIN A DEVIL SPIRIT!" A wonderful 11th corps brother refused to do a rappell or something so immediately he had to be possessed. I felt terrible for him. I knew there was no devil spirit in him. he just decided that rappelling was something he didn't want to do with his life at that moment. Inside I was laughing my A$$ off at the stupidity of the ....ed off BLEAD person. His wild ravings did nothing more but than to prove how much spiritual savy he really had (Zippo, Nunno, pffft.) The wilderness is a tremendous place for someone to learn and to get quiet and have fellowship with God, but without the meekness, that was exhibited by many of the BLEAD staffers, it made it hard for many.
I do not place the blame for the suicide of the 11th corps woman at the feet of the BLEAD program or the staffers. I knew her very well and she suffered terribly from the accident and medical science was unable to help her. Had she lived today perhaps help would have been there for her. I don't know if she left the corps or was thrown out but I do know the pain she suffered after the accident caused her to be depressed and depression in the way for any reason was surely a sign of possession.SHe always came off as tough as nails the first year in residence and after the accident she seemed sometimes even more standoffish. I got to know her when we were at HQ together one of the last blocks our final year. I was surprised at what a warm hearted individual she really was. Her loss was great to me. If she were alive today I know I would be counting her amongst my dearest friends.
SO Dooj. don't think I am at all discounting the great things that being at BLEAD did for you and any other person. I call fault to the program and how they ran it, both from a safety standpoint and from a spiritual standpoint. You had novices out looking for ways to reprove intermediates and better
I, for one, tend to be one of those that feels that any good done by the programs/activities/twi is far outweighed by all the evil and harm done. But do we, as a general GSC populace, really clamp down on folks who tell us about their good experiences? I really hope not. I want this place to be where I can hear all sides, and many opinions.
I think most of us did have good experiences threaded through our time in twi. But, I think those good times and fond moments are what kept us thinking that any bad times we might be going through were just temporary or aberrations, not the norm. I think the good times gave us just enough hope to keep us hanging. And that is a shame.
I think telling about our good experiences helps remind us that we were not completely daft to have joined twi in the first place. There were reasons we joined. There were reasons we stayed. There were good people and good experiences that added positively to our lives. There really were. It's just that looking back, with the wisdom of age and experience on our side, we see that there were not enough of those moments. Not nearly enough of them compared to all the bad stuff.
And I suppose that is why some of us bristle when we read about a good twi experience. We don't mind that you had a good experience, as long as you acknowlege that we didn't. The question is, does that 'tip of the hat' need to be in every post?
As for LEAD specifically, I think that it should have been voluntary. And I think it should have been directed by actual professionals. In other words, I think it should have been run like Rodeo School was run. Were there injuries there? Oh, yeah. But people signed up KNOWING it was going to be a risk, and the cowboys let them know it was SERIOUS, and when there were accidents, it wasn't HIDDEN or covered up like so much of the LEAD stuff was. From what I saw, people were not ostracized for being hurt because they got thrown off a bull, they were praised for facing their fears and having tried in the first place.
I realize it's some 37 pages long, but you asked the (somewhat) same question (somewhere in the middle of it all), and got your answer. Peruse the link. :)
I'm always hesitant to comment on matters that concern tragedy but, having seen your link and read up to the point of where HCW actually speaks of what happened I feel compelled to say I see no justification for blaming the LEAD program or TWI for the accident. The driver of the car was just being plain stupid and I don't think anyone -- including God -- can be blamed for stupidity.
I was involved in two auto accidents in my entire life. The first one was when I was in Ohio's in-state outreach program called WOO. My partner and I was returning from the home of someone interested in learning more about God. We were excited because it went very well. It was night-time and raining. Neither of us were familiar with the roads. And my partner was driving faster than the speed limit. We came up to a sharp curve in the road and he failed to negotiate it, flipping the car over three times before it came to rest back on its tires. He was knocked unconscious. Maybe I was also but only briefly. I noticed the passenger window was broke but I didn't think anything of it until a few minutes later. I dragged my partner out of the car and then saw what was the only house in the area -- we were in a rural or country area and proceeded to it. I knocked on the door and it was then that I realized why the window was broken. My arm went broke it. I left a trail of blood dripping on the door.
The second accident happened when I was in FLO. Only a few months later. I volunteered (probably was asked) to go with a member of the Way Corp to Int. HQ to pick up some straw. Our route took us down one of those roads that had a deep ditch on one side (and the road was narrow). I thought he was driving too close to the edge and should move over -- for a moment I thought God was telling me to tell him so but, then I thought that couldn't be right because this man was Corp and surely he would be listening to God. So I kept my mouth shut. And just a few minutes later we went off the road into the ditch.
Now, my point is -- In neither case was anyone else to blame but the drivers of the vehicles. Both were careless. To blame anyone else (or a program) for what happened to me -- well -- I think is slightly dishonest. But that's just my opinion. I mean no offense to those who have (and continue to) mourned the loss of someone they loved.
Remember ..the Tinnie Mountain Crazy who stalked the LEAD house and rushed it armed? maybe took pot shots, does anyone remember...
..The wayfer man who "sold" the property to twi got royally screwed financially.
I went 1980 and 82 (10th wc). I loved it. And I hated it - afraid of heights! The camping part was great fun, I made the fires and the breakfasts and hauled water and whatever, it was great. Still a tent camper up here in Maine.
Climbing was an adventure in how many ways can I CRY IN PUBLIC... funny now, but simple walk-ups sent me to total melt down...
But I am better now, I can stand on a chair to change a lightbulb. If I have to.
I enjoyed LEAD, but normal camp precautions were not taken. I was too ignorant regarding the climbing procedures to know any better. I enjoyed Australian rapel at 9,000 feet with an 8,000 foot rope...too dumb to know I was in danger and shouldnt be having a GREAT TIME!
Funny thing, climbing up was terrifying. Flying down was DELIGHTFUL...
And then there was DSmythe and me and the huge spider and the revolver incident... I am still laughing Donnie...
I've hiked through areas with Grizzly bears along the trail, I've gone through villages were there were Banditos with pistolos, I've had black bear try to take fish off my hook, I've almost been run over by Yak trains, yet I have never carried a revolver or bear spray into the woods. I remember both trips to tinnie there were revolvers present. why?
I asked about the revolvers, I was told it was for rattlesnakes.
But they had concern/paranoia for the "Vietnam Vet" living in Lincoln National who was supposed to be very well armed. When I was there in 80 the staff were talking about him trailing the LEAD groups. I never saw him.
DSmythe used his revolver (I heard the shot after walking down the trail away from DS).
Yes, he shot the big spider.
It was really big.
I am still laughing.
PS
Out There - I want to live vicariously through you...
Hi Dagoo - I have been in areas were I've seen 50 rattlesnakes a day. I learned a very simple rule about snakes. They don't want to have anything to do with you so you shouldn't have anything to do with them. They do not want to be petted, held, fed. they don't want their glands excised nor do they want you to talk baby talk to them. they just want to be left alone so that seems to tell us something - stay away from them. I've eaten a couple over the years and they are not all that good eatin. tastes like very stringy, tough chicken. No need for a gun in rattlesnake territory as long as you watch your step and don't step on one or try to pick one up.
Now spiders, they are a different story - yes, SHOOT THEM!!! especially the big ones, they are the ring leaders.
Hi Dagoo - I have been in areas were I've seen 50 rattlesnakes a day. I learned a very simple rule about snakes. They don't want to have anything to do with you so you shouldn't have anything to do with them. They do not want to be petted, held, fed. they don't want their glands excised nor do they want you to talk baby talk to them. they just want to be left alone so that seems to tell us something - stay away from them. I've eaten a couple over the years and they are not all that good eatin. tastes like very stringy, tough chicken. No need for a gun in rattlesnake territory as long as you watch your step and don't step on one or try to pick one up.
Now spiders, they are a different story - yes, SHOOT THEM!!! especially the big ones, they are the ring leaders.
Speaking of Snakes & Spiders...Have you ever been to Africa? You don't need to "see" 50 a day, you only need to NOT see ONE on ANY day There's no place to go and nothing to think about if something happens. But if you're interested pm me. I have another project coming up at the end of the year, and you might be the one to work with some of my "locals"! You see, I don't really like clearing jungle vegatation! <_<
I choose to celebrate them publicly, not hide them from those who ask questions about it. If I didn't celebrate them publicly, then those who ask about them publicly would only hear the negatives.
...and because of your celebrations, the need arises to post the negatives...otherwise people would not see the complete picture.
...and you wouldn't want people to have a lopsided view that is not accurate would you?
Jonny...Maybe you would like to write a letter to the family of the person who died on "lead" and tell THEM what a great program it was...
Personally, I think that when a twi program kills someone, it diminishes the "good time" that someone else may have had in that program...but that's just me.
Personally, I think that when a twi program kills someone, it diminishes the "good time" that someone else may have had in that program...but that's just me.
ALL of the Way, International was murderous.
Regular people in twigs killed themselves.
Fellow Laborers killed themselves.
WOWs killed themselves.
WOWs were killed by accidents.
WOWs were killed by illness.
WOWs were killed by murderers.
Corps killed themselves.
Corps were killed by accidents.
Corps were killed by illness.
Corps were killed by murderers.
It is easier for me to chuckle about some good sunny days in NM, than to acknowledge the evil I lived in.
"celebrate" is a strange choice, in my humble opinion
i'm didn't mean to "reprove" anyone for having a good experience, but it came across that way
i think i said i was trying to figure things out.....
and my saying "people got hurt, people died, etc." sorry. ken died, rochelle never recovered and killed herself, toppie got raped
i guess that's enough for me
"a person died, a person commited suicide, a person got raped"
oh man. i know god cares (i'm not saying anyone here doesn't). it's just that it was such a great cost (like dooj said), so i felt weird telling how well i did
some days i feel that way, yesterday was one of them
As far as hitch hiking being dangerous, I don't buy that.
I decided to begin reading this thread and only got as far as this, and I just gotta say something: DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On one of my hitching experiences in the Corps, I was stuck in a sports car being driven by a drunk at high rates of speed, praying I'd see the light of day.
One of my Corps sisters was KIDNAPPED while hitching, when her buddy left the truck to go to the bathroom and the trucker took off with her.
Not dangerous?
Buddy, what planet do you live on, and in what century?
I think telling about our good experiences helps remind us that we were not completely daft to have joined twi in the first place. There were reasons we joined. There were reasons we stayed. There were good people and good experiences that added positively to our lives. There really were. It's just that looking back, with the wisdom of age and experience on our side, we see that there were not enough of those moments. Not nearly enough of them compared to all the bad stuff.
And I suppose that is why some of us bristle when we read about a good twi experience. We don't mind that you had a good experience, as long as you acknowlege that we didn't. The question is, does that 'tip of the hat' need to be in every post?
As for LEAD specifically, I think that it should have been voluntary.
And......not only should LEAD had been voluntary (with or without the hitchhiking experience)
The LEAD evaluation should NOT have been weighed as the prime indicator of a corps person's spirituality and commitment level. C'mon, having a 60 year old Family Corps woman measured in the same manner of a 19 year old athletic man is absurd. Everything from back pain to blisters on her feet could easily affect her performance, her mood, her "positive" outlook, her willingness to help around the campfire, etc.
To me, it's NOT whether someone had a good experience and another had a bad experience.....
Looking back, I see the heavy-handedness of LEAD/corps leadership to manipulate and degrade some individuals when COMPARING corps against corps. And, we all know that making comparisons amongst one another is not wise.
The LEAD experience can be viewed on so many levels because it was intricately interwoven into the fabric of the competitive corps program.
One of my Corps sisters was KIDNAPPED while hitching, when her buddy left the truck to go to the bathroom and the trucker took off with her.
Yes, hitch hiking is very dangerous. So dangerous that that dude should never have left his Corps Sistah in that truck with that trucker. That's exactly how one of our sweet Corps sisters was violently raped. Her hitching partner, the GUY, did the exact same thing. I would never ever do that. I'd say; "Mary Jane (or whoever), I have to take a leak. Come on with me and wait in the coffee shop".
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I never intended to dispute anyone's positive experience or refute the fact that people did, in fact, come away with some valuable lessons learned. If I came across that way, I apologize.
Waysider.
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Bumpy
TFI, that was the place...’75 or ‘76! A group of us went from the bay area with the objective of learning a little rock climbing and repelling. Well, different strokes for different folks, and after a little canvassing of the rock surfaces it was time to, “Let go and let Go...”
So for the uninitiated, going over a cliff in your leather harness with a rope running through the carabiners for the FIRST time, can cause some to manifest that spiritual creature called FEAR! Such was the case with our housemate “Craig”.
Craig whose real name was Greg, had Mr. Fear written all over his face and refused to go over. But whoever was in charge that day was going to have none of that. I remember after my turn of bouncing down the wall, looking up maybe 50 ft., that things were slowing down. So up I went. There was Greg in a white “cable” sweater refusing to move.
To make an interesting moment as short as possible, Greg was forced over and seemed to get about 1/2 way down when the devil in the form of a nice cable knit sweater got caught with the rope in the carabiner. So there is Greg, FROZEN with fear, his face to the wall, with absolutely no way to go up or down. And the sweater firmly through the metal hooks tied in knots!
The stage is set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abseil#Equipment
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Danny
As far as lead goes the part that took place in New Mexico
was cool for me.
As far as the whole concept it was a bunch of sheet.
You are going to put 60 year old over weight ladies
on the road hitching a ride and climbing rocks so they can
believe better.
Right
And test them as if they were a 19 year old take a chance Man/boy.
Right
And hitching is not dangerous lets see I have a camera
we will start with your daughter and a friend give them each 20 dollars
and tell them to be someplace between 30 and 36 hours across 6 or seven
states.
If they fail they aren't believing God.
Right
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ChattyKathy
It's why I don't frequent this part of the web site much anymore. This thread kept showing up as the last one posted to on the General page and it caught my attention and I thought I would stumble in here and read it. But the fact is that despite my personal h3lls while with that group there are things I am still thankful for, experiences I still cherish and I'm exactly where I am today because I had some of them to go through. Which does not mean I would return to them, nor does it mean I think they are a godly group. But I did have positive things that I refuse to apologize for or to subtract from my memories because another person had bad experiences. If I were to take away all my good experiences because someone else had a bad experience I would become bitter and I refuse to go in that direction.
Because some of us had blessings does not mean we support twi, it simply is the truth and the fact that we should be ashamed and hide it has been a good part of running me out of this part of Paw's web site.
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Out There
THis thread could have been subtitled = 'The Good, The Bad and the Ugly' . BLEAD has many fond memories for people and many horrors for others. I don't think that any other 14 days in the corps had as big an impact on people's lives as these. I had some very good times out there and I had some horrors. No matter how you look at it though you will find that the TWI was negligent in the protection they provided the participants of the program. I think that the liability waivers that they provided to anyone who suffered any kind of injury after the fact was a little underhanded and today the idea of having to sign one under duress would probably get some attention from the legal community. (Here sign this and I'm sure you'll get to graduate from the corps)
Todays litigious spociety would never stand for the way people were put into harms way bv having them hitchhike 36 hours or the way someone 60 years old would be expected to perform to a standard set by a 20 year old. the older I get the more I can see the difference in what people are capable of. Tomorrow I have a 25 year old female client. I'm going to have to really push to give her a satisfying experience (on the rocks). Boy. life can be hard as we found at BLEAD but it can also be very satisfying.
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doojable
I think there's a mentality that develops here that says....
"If you had a good experience that's great, but don't share it because because it's like celebrating in the end zone."
MY take on the whole matter is that my life is just that - MINE. (Yes - I know that God has me as well, but I'm talking about something else.) I had some good experiences - but that doesn't mean that the program was a good program. It only means that I had good experiences.
I think that the problem that some folks have is that if too many people speak of their good experiences, it somehow takes those who were hurt, or killed, or committed suicide and puts them right back into that box labeled "Unbelieving Loser." I doubt highly that anyone here feels that way about those we've lost through tragedies in LEAD or otherwise.
Each and every person has value. Every brother and sister that we lost because of an accident brought on TWI's negligence deserved better. I understand that while I was out having a good experience someone else may have been hurt, and that grieves me to no end. I truly wish it had grieved those with the power to change the programs and make them safer.
I guess that some would say that our "good experiences" came at too high a price. I tend to believe that. It's not that I regret having those good moments, it's that I choose to not celebrate them publically.
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J0nny Ling0
I choose to celebrate them publicly, not hide them from those who ask questions about it. If I didn't celebrate them publicly, then those who ask about them publicly would only hear the negatives.
And remember once again that I did say this, and I'll say it for the second time::
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Out There
My farside calendar the other day had a guy whistling while working in hell. The caption had the devil saying "We just aren't getting through to that guy" There are good times to be had anywhere and under almost any circumstances. I don't take away from the good times I had at Tinnie. I do condemm the way they ran the program though. their idea was the same as tearing down the old waste places of Isaiah but they didn't realize that not everyone had evil in their heart and needed to be torn down. they found wrong with everyone in both groups I was in and tried to tell everyone else what their problem was. My first year the whole group was rounded up and a face melting was instore for everyone "DON'T EVER LET YOUR MIND ENTERTAIN A DEVIL SPIRIT!" A wonderful 11th corps brother refused to do a rappell or something so immediately he had to be possessed. I felt terrible for him. I knew there was no devil spirit in him. he just decided that rappelling was something he didn't want to do with his life at that moment. Inside I was laughing my A$$ off at the stupidity of the ....ed off BLEAD person. His wild ravings did nothing more but than to prove how much spiritual savy he really had (Zippo, Nunno, pffft.) The wilderness is a tremendous place for someone to learn and to get quiet and have fellowship with God, but without the meekness, that was exhibited by many of the BLEAD staffers, it made it hard for many.
I do not place the blame for the suicide of the 11th corps woman at the feet of the BLEAD program or the staffers. I knew her very well and she suffered terribly from the accident and medical science was unable to help her. Had she lived today perhaps help would have been there for her. I don't know if she left the corps or was thrown out but I do know the pain she suffered after the accident caused her to be depressed and depression in the way for any reason was surely a sign of possession.SHe always came off as tough as nails the first year in residence and after the accident she seemed sometimes even more standoffish. I got to know her when we were at HQ together one of the last blocks our final year. I was surprised at what a warm hearted individual she really was. Her loss was great to me. If she were alive today I know I would be counting her amongst my dearest friends.
SO Dooj. don't think I am at all discounting the great things that being at BLEAD did for you and any other person. I call fault to the program and how they ran it, both from a safety standpoint and from a spiritual standpoint. You had novices out looking for ways to reprove intermediates and better
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TheHighWay
Interesting thread...
I, for one, tend to be one of those that feels that any good done by the programs/activities/twi is far outweighed by all the evil and harm done. But do we, as a general GSC populace, really clamp down on folks who tell us about their good experiences? I really hope not. I want this place to be where I can hear all sides, and many opinions.
I think most of us did have good experiences threaded through our time in twi. But, I think those good times and fond moments are what kept us thinking that any bad times we might be going through were just temporary or aberrations, not the norm. I think the good times gave us just enough hope to keep us hanging. And that is a shame.
I think telling about our good experiences helps remind us that we were not completely daft to have joined twi in the first place. There were reasons we joined. There were reasons we stayed. There were good people and good experiences that added positively to our lives. There really were. It's just that looking back, with the wisdom of age and experience on our side, we see that there were not enough of those moments. Not nearly enough of them compared to all the bad stuff.
And I suppose that is why some of us bristle when we read about a good twi experience. We don't mind that you had a good experience, as long as you acknowlege that we didn't. The question is, does that 'tip of the hat' need to be in every post?
As for LEAD specifically, I think that it should have been voluntary. And I think it should have been directed by actual professionals. In other words, I think it should have been run like Rodeo School was run. Were there injuries there? Oh, yeah. But people signed up KNOWING it was going to be a risk, and the cowboys let them know it was SERIOUS, and when there were accidents, it wasn't HIDDEN or covered up like so much of the LEAD stuff was. From what I saw, people were not ostracized for being hurt because they got thrown off a bull, they were praised for facing their fears and having tried in the first place.
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Larry N Moore
I'm always hesitant to comment on matters that concern tragedy but, having seen your link and read up to the point of where HCW actually speaks of what happened I feel compelled to say I see no justification for blaming the LEAD program or TWI for the accident. The driver of the car was just being plain stupid and I don't think anyone -- including God -- can be blamed for stupidity.
I was involved in two auto accidents in my entire life. The first one was when I was in Ohio's in-state outreach program called WOO. My partner and I was returning from the home of someone interested in learning more about God. We were excited because it went very well. It was night-time and raining. Neither of us were familiar with the roads. And my partner was driving faster than the speed limit. We came up to a sharp curve in the road and he failed to negotiate it, flipping the car over three times before it came to rest back on its tires. He was knocked unconscious. Maybe I was also but only briefly. I noticed the passenger window was broke but I didn't think anything of it until a few minutes later. I dragged my partner out of the car and then saw what was the only house in the area -- we were in a rural or country area and proceeded to it. I knocked on the door and it was then that I realized why the window was broken. My arm went broke it. I left a trail of blood dripping on the door.
The second accident happened when I was in FLO. Only a few months later. I volunteered (probably was asked) to go with a member of the Way Corp to Int. HQ to pick up some straw. Our route took us down one of those roads that had a deep ditch on one side (and the road was narrow). I thought he was driving too close to the edge and should move over -- for a moment I thought God was telling me to tell him so but, then I thought that couldn't be right because this man was Corp and surely he would be listening to God. So I kept my mouth shut. And just a few minutes later we went off the road into the ditch.
Now, my point is -- In neither case was anyone else to blame but the drivers of the vehicles. Both were careless. To blame anyone else (or a program) for what happened to me -- well -- I think is slightly dishonest. But that's just my opinion. I mean no offense to those who have (and continue to) mourned the loss of someone they loved.
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Daggoo
Remember ..the Tinnie Mountain Crazy who stalked the LEAD house and rushed it armed? maybe took pot shots, does anyone remember...
..The wayfer man who "sold" the property to twi got royally screwed financially.
I went 1980 and 82 (10th wc). I loved it. And I hated it - afraid of heights! The camping part was great fun, I made the fires and the breakfasts and hauled water and whatever, it was great. Still a tent camper up here in Maine.
Climbing was an adventure in how many ways can I CRY IN PUBLIC... funny now, but simple walk-ups sent me to total melt down...
But I am better now, I can stand on a chair to change a lightbulb. If I have to.
I enjoyed LEAD, but normal camp precautions were not taken. I was too ignorant regarding the climbing procedures to know any better. I enjoyed Australian rapel at 9,000 feet with an 8,000 foot rope...too dumb to know I was in danger and shouldnt be having a GREAT TIME!
Funny thing, climbing up was terrifying. Flying down was DELIGHTFUL...
And then there was DSmythe and me and the huge spider and the revolver incident... I am still laughing Donnie...
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Out There
I've hiked through areas with Grizzly bears along the trail, I've gone through villages were there were Banditos with pistolos, I've had black bear try to take fish off my hook, I've almost been run over by Yak trains, yet I have never carried a revolver or bear spray into the woods. I remember both trips to tinnie there were revolvers present. why?
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Larry N Moore
Happy Birthday Out There.
Oops! Sorry, I discovered there's already a thread congratulating you on your BD.
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Daggoo
I asked about the revolvers, I was told it was for rattlesnakes.
But they had concern/paranoia for the "Vietnam Vet" living in Lincoln National who was supposed to be very well armed. When I was there in 80 the staff were talking about him trailing the LEAD groups. I never saw him.
DSmythe used his revolver (I heard the shot after walking down the trail away from DS).
Yes, he shot the big spider.
It was really big.
I am still laughing.
PS
Out There - I want to live vicariously through you...
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Out There
Hi Dagoo - I have been in areas were I've seen 50 rattlesnakes a day. I learned a very simple rule about snakes. They don't want to have anything to do with you so you shouldn't have anything to do with them. They do not want to be petted, held, fed. they don't want their glands excised nor do they want you to talk baby talk to them. they just want to be left alone so that seems to tell us something - stay away from them. I've eaten a couple over the years and they are not all that good eatin. tastes like very stringy, tough chicken. No need for a gun in rattlesnake territory as long as you watch your step and don't step on one or try to pick one up.
Now spiders, they are a different story - yes, SHOOT THEM!!! especially the big ones, they are the ring leaders.
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Bumpy
Speaking of Snakes & Spiders...Have you ever been to Africa? You don't need to "see" 50 a day, you only need to NOT see ONE on ANY day
There's no place to go and nothing to think about if something happens. But if you're interested pm me. I have another project coming up at the end of the year, and you might be the one to work with some of my "locals"! You see, I don't really like clearing jungle vegatation! <_<
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and because of your celebrations, the need arises to post the negatives...otherwise people would not see the complete picture.
...and you wouldn't want people to have a lopsided view that is not accurate would you?
Jonny...Maybe you would like to write a letter to the family of the person who died on "lead" and tell THEM what a great program it was...
Personally, I think that when a twi program kills someone, it diminishes the "good time" that someone else may have had in that program...but that's just me.
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Daggoo
Personally, I think that when a twi program kills someone, it diminishes the "good time" that someone else may have had in that program...but that's just me.
ALL of the Way, International was murderous.
Regular people in twigs killed themselves.
Fellow Laborers killed themselves.
WOWs killed themselves.
WOWs were killed by accidents.
WOWs were killed by illness.
WOWs were killed by murderers.
Corps killed themselves.
Corps were killed by accidents.
Corps were killed by illness.
Corps were killed by murderers.
It is easier for me to chuckle about some good sunny days in NM, than to acknowledge the evil I lived in.
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excathedra
"celebrate" is a strange choice, in my humble opinion
i'm didn't mean to "reprove" anyone for having a good experience, but it came across that way
i think i said i was trying to figure things out.....
and my saying "people got hurt, people died, etc." sorry. ken died, rochelle never recovered and killed herself, toppie got raped
i guess that's enough for me
"a person died, a person commited suicide, a person got raped"
oh man. i know god cares (i'm not saying anyone here doesn't). it's just that it was such a great cost (like dooj said), so i felt weird telling how well i did
some days i feel that way, yesterday was one of them
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J0nny Ling0
Excathedra said;
I chose the word "celebrate" in a direct and contrasting response to Doojable's choice of the words " to not celebrate" where she said;Groucho said;
Groucho, the negative chicken came first, and then the positive egg. Check out the very second post in this thread.
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Catcup
I decided to begin reading this thread and only got as far as this, and I just gotta say something: DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On one of my hitching experiences in the Corps, I was stuck in a sports car being driven by a drunk at high rates of speed, praying I'd see the light of day.
One of my Corps sisters was KIDNAPPED while hitching, when her buddy left the truck to go to the bathroom and the trucker took off with her.
Not dangerous?
Buddy, what planet do you live on, and in what century?
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skyrider
And......not only should LEAD had been voluntary (with or without the hitchhiking experience)
The LEAD evaluation should NOT have been weighed as the prime indicator of a corps person's spirituality and commitment level. C'mon, having a 60 year old Family Corps woman measured in the same manner of a 19 year old athletic man is absurd. Everything from back pain to blisters on her feet could easily affect her performance, her mood, her "positive" outlook, her willingness to help around the campfire, etc.
To me, it's NOT whether someone had a good experience and another had a bad experience.....
Looking back, I see the heavy-handedness of LEAD/corps leadership to manipulate and degrade some individuals when COMPARING corps against corps. And, we all know that making comparisons amongst one another is not wise.
The LEAD experience can be viewed on so many levels because it was intricately interwoven into the fabric of the competitive corps program.
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J0nny Ling0
Yes, hitch hiking is very dangerous. So dangerous that that dude should never have left his Corps Sistah in that truck with that trucker. That's exactly how one of our sweet Corps sisters was violently raped. Her hitching partner, the GUY, did the exact same thing. I would never ever do that. I'd say; "Mary Jane (or whoever), I have to take a leak. Come on with me and wait in the coffee shop".
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excathedra
thank god the sweet girl got help, counseling, etc., when she got back
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