Comparisons, Metaphors and the Like

[Oakspear]

On another thread someone compared Wierwille to Hitler and another compared him to Jeffrey Dahmer. Still another poster (actually more than one) took exception to the Hitler comparison pointing out that Wierwille didn't kill people, etc, expressing the opinion that the comparison was absurd.

Can some people not understand the concept of analogies, metaphors and other figures of speech, or for that matter, exaggeration? Generally the Hitler analogy comes up in response to pro-Wierwille posters tossing out the old "Wierwille did some good" or "he taught me the Word" rationale. The anti-Wierwille response goes along the lines of "yeah...well Hitler did some good too...".

The idea is not that Wierwille was exactly like Hitler in all particulars, but that the fact that he also did good as well as evil is a valid point for comparison.

A figure of speech is by its very definition not literal, so why do so many act like it is?

[Nottawayfer]

Yes, I used Jeffrey Dahmer as an example, not literal.

But I would still ask Oldiesman or johniam if Jeffrey Dahmer had taught the Word like nobody had and started a successful ministery, would they still follow his teachings because the Word is still the Word? Wouldn't they be inclined to think that there was something awry with the doctrine BECAUSE OF HIS ACTIONS????

[nandon]

the same kind of thing happens when you point out hitlers strong points to people.

if you say, Hitler was an amazing public speaker and he knew how to lead people. some people take offense to that, as if you were saying he was a great man.

[excathedra]

if anyone would should know about figures of speech, these peope should

[rhino]

well, the point of comparison is that evil can do some good, using the extreme of Dahmer or Hitler to make the point. Still, invoking an extreme name makes for an extreme comparison. It might be better to more accurately compare Wierwille's evils to somone comparable ... ummmm He took a lot of money under false pretenses, and maybe raped/took advantage of women. There may be other comparisons that would be fairer. Swaggert ... Baker ... others ... invoking the extreme names might be hyperbole (or hyperbolic)

Using Hitler or Dahmer makes for a poor comparison in my opinion. I get the point, but it introduces an order of magnitude difference in emotion.

Edited July 18, 2007 by rhino

[excathedra]

i see your point, rhino

[rhino]

perhaps if he was more competent, he would have risen to those levels ... :(

[exwaycorps]

HERE HERE Rhino!!

As bad as things got ( and yes they did get VERY bad)

I have yet to hear of gas chambers at any of the campuses

OR

of anyone LITERALLY being eaten

not to minimize anything that really did happen

BUT

I think we need to make realistic comparisons to remain credible

[excathedra]

for me, what really happened, is plenty enough

[ChasUFarley]

I think the comparison is more about the cult of personality that one had - not the metaphore that other's make it out to be.

[Oakspear]

HERE HERE Rhino!!

As bad as things got ( and yes they did get VERY bad)

I have yet to hear of gas chambers at any of the campuses

OR

of anyone LITERALLY being eaten

not to minimize anything that really did happen

BUT

I think we need to make realistic comparisons to remain credible

I believe that you missed the point.

The point of a figure of speech is that it's not literally true.

[exwaycorps]

Using Hitler or Dahmer makes for a poor comparison in my opinion. I get the point, but it introduces an order of magnitude difference in emotion.

THIS is what I was agreeing with.

Using figures of speech. sure. Great enhancements to comparisons or a point being made.

I do,however, believe that comparisons should be;

credible.

realistic.

within the bounds of the point being made.

not so blown out of porportion that the original comparison is lost or rendered ridiculous.

VPW/Hitler ???...sort of... apples/minivans.

not CREDIBLE comparisons.

VPW and Hitler... both great public speakers...both widely thought of as evil men ... but c'mon.

internet postings are WIDE open and ,pretty much, can live on forever.

credibility is a must.

I understand that this site is HEAVILY visited,scrutinized,and often "cut & pasted".

All the more reason for those posting here not to come off as,well, something LESS than they really are.

Especially when we're discussing PEOPLE.

I believe us to be credible men and women.(from most of what i've seen)

NOT some lunatic fringe group.

Let's not "come off" like that.

[ex10]

Oh geeze, once again, Oak, you said what I was thinkin. A figure of speech isn't a "realistic comparison."

The point of using a figurative comparison, as opposed to a "realistic" one, is to grab someone's attention, and to make a point that the verbage of a a bland comparison impedites.

[Bolshevik]

Doesn't vpw get compared to Jesus too?

I pointed this out on a recent service to someone. The wayfer said that's not what was meant.

I guess a good metaphor for vpw needs to fall somewhere between Jesus Christ and Hitler.

[doojable]

"I'm so hungry I could eat a horse."

"He can run like the wind."

"I'm gonna slap the stupid off of his face."

These are all extremes. Each of them are impossible (one is a comparison that is "unbelievable")

That's the point of a figure of speech......

Fourth grade English.

Now, regarding analogy - the stronger the similarities, the stronger the analogy will be. Note that they need only be similiarities and NOT exactly point for point identical.

I'll look up a link...

[exwaycorps]

I think we need to make realistic comparisons to remain credible

Did this portion of my post NOT show up or something ? :huh:

Edited July 18, 2007 by exwaycorps

[dmiller]

i see your point, rhino

The one(s) on his nose in the avatar, or his post?? ;)

(Sowwy -- couldn't resist!!)

[now I see]

If people are having trouble seein that VPW embodied the capacity for both good and evil, just look at OJ simpson, even Oj wants to be loved, he's had many girlfriends since the trial, even though he is what he is.

VPW maybe didn't have as many kills as Hitler, but he and his successor henchmen were both directly or indirectly responsible for deaths and abortions in der Vey, of Corps and others, many who've been discussed here, plus he had a direct hand in the death of the evangelism of Doop and Heefner's ministries in what he did to the Way West and East. Of which he will be delt with by God himself.

What is worse? Hitler or Verwille? God will be the judge, depends on what's important to God?

[dmiller]

Now, regarding analogy - the stronger the similarities, the stronger the analogy will be. Note that they need only be similiarities and NOT exactly point for point identical.

I'll look up a link...

I once heard it said by Rodney Dillard

(a famous picker whom most of you have probably never heard of): That ---

"Bob Dylan's singing sounds like a dog with it's hind leg caught in a barbed wire fence."

Now --- THAT'S an analogy!

(Sorry WhiteDove -- that's always been one of my favorite quotes!)

[ex10]

exwaycorps

Realistic comparisons don't speak the same way figurative ones do. I thought that was the point of this thread. :B) It has nothing to do with "credibility." Most of us who hang around the cafe, were there. "Credibility" isn't much of an issue, cause most of us lived through the Waydaze.

[doojable]

Did this portion of my post NOT show up or something ? :huh:

It showed up - but the point of a metaphor, simile, or hyperbole is to be stronger than a mere comparison.

So....

"Wi*rw*lle is a two-bit Jimmy Swaggert."

Is a simile (which is a figure of speech of comparison for emphasis.)

"Even Hitler's mother loved him."

This isn't even a figure of speech. It's just a smart arse remark that really is true. Hitler's mother loved him. Hitler most likely loved someone in his lifetime and I bet some folks thought he was a good guy.

Can you tell me what you see that is not credible? I'm not being evasive here. I just didn't go through and review every post as I wrote this.

[JavaJane]

So....

"Wi*rw*lle is a two-bit Jimmy Swaggert."

Is a simile (which is a figure of speech of comparison for emphasis.)

technically, it's a metaphor. Similes have to involve "like" or "as" in the comparison, hence, they are "similar" while metaphor says that something IS something else.

(sorry, dooj, my English training came out and possessed me. Forgive the interruption.)

[doojable]

technically, it's a metaphor. Similes have to involve "like" or "as" in the comparison, hence, they are "similar" while metaphor says that something IS something else.

(sorry, dooj, my English training came out and possessed me. Forgive the interruption.)

NO problem at all Java Jane.... I know you're a perfectionist ;)

Actually I kept saying to myself, "A metaphor uses 'like' or 'as.'" I had it wrong in my head....

I stand corrected and I bow to your training. ;)

[JavaJane]

Perfectionist? Who, me??

[doojable]

I should know better than to comment on Language without checking it.

I could blame it on my right-brainedness.... but I won't.....