I read about Marsha in your post and thought I like this guy validating the Marsha story...
Then, I read what you said to Onephile and Thomas and I am not so sure. What are you saying? If you are trying to "love" and encourage them, I must say you seem a bit judging and mean. Please explain before my first opinion of you changes. Thanks.
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we don't go to heaven at all, but rather inherit the Kingdom of God on earth, which is what Jesus taught. The whole idea that the kingdom on earth was only for Israel is a problem. It separates Jesus from his words, which we are supposed to believe.
But I am thankful to have learned that Jesus is the Son of God and not God, and that the dead are unconscious now. Both of these seem to be huge stumbling blocks for a lot of other Christians.
But then.......you never sat in those wierwille-veins-popping yellfests when all hell broke loose. Man, wierwille and martindale and others could really spit out some over-the-top fear manipulation by using scriptures such as "salt losing its savor" or "like a dog returning to his vomit" or "being loaded up with devil spirits like a new
boot in hell."
Believe it or not..........the wierwille of pfal was NOT the wierwille of corps training.
Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hide comes to mind.
Sky, I was never in the Corps, so I don't know that side of VBW. However, I heard VBW teach live a number of times, and I thought he was boring as Hell. I never understood why so many people thought he was such a great man of God; I thought he was a Country Bumpkin. I know some people will disagree with me, but that is/ was my opinion of the man.
Seems like if you took PFAL and just lived on the field in VP's day, you stood a chance of having a pretty good experience with twi. If you went into the corps under VP, well... you were in for a rude shock in many respects.
Perhaps one of the biggest changes under LCM is that what the corps experienced, bled out onto the field almost immediately. Every standard presented as "corps level" soon trickled down to "adv class grad" to "fellowship coordinators" to "standing grads" standards. And then even to "new grads" standards. Ridiculous!!
Sometimes I wonder, if I had stopped my involvement with twi after taking PFAL, what would I believe today... probably just about everything I was taught in that class... I felt like I had been enlightened. I felt like I had been given answers I'd hoped for my whole life. I felt like I could do anything with my life, and help others do the same!
Of course, I was 20 years old. And I think that's how most 20-yr-olds feel, with or without the class...
High, ditto for me!! I thought I was going to change the world with what I learned in PFAL. Here I was 21 years old,and I believed almost all of what I learned in PFAL. Then I went out WOW, and I quickly learned that most of what VPW taught in PFAL was garbage, and very few people wanted it. Hell, toward the end of my WOW year, I didn't believe a lot of it either. I think I was a very foolish young girl, when I tried to sign people up for PFAL. After a while, I got smart, and just went through the motions. I was much happier, and after a while, I left TWI.
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God. Also, God's grace, mercy, and salvation were taught to us from a very early age. So that was not news to us when we heard it in TWI.
When we heard preaching in church about the trinity, we simply understood the trinity to be the three main subjects of our bible: God the Father, His Son Jesus, and Holy Spirit, which was interchangeably used for either God, or referred to characteristics of that interesting permanent change that the gift of salvation bestowed upon a person when they got born again.
I suppose we were lucky to have just enough "churching" to hear about salvation and confess Jesus as our Lord, understand he was the Son of God who died for our sins, and God raised him from the dead so that we could have eternal life, and not enough "churching" to indoctrinate us on the trinity.
Some time after being raised S.B., going through typical late 1960's teenage angst, drugs, and searching, and before getting into TWI, I was part of a charismatic movement. During that time, a woman taught me how to speak in tongues. I was growing, enjoying fruit of the spirit, a tight relationship with my Lord, getting answers to prayer, and I was reading my bible to learn about what exactly it all was. It seemed that finally, for once in my life, things were going well for me and I was on the right track. Then an introduction to TWI interrupted that journey.
As far as the dead going straight to heaven when they die, I am no longer sure, but I don't really care, because sometimes I think it's just not that important, at least to me, at this point in time, to worry about what my status is after I die. I believe the most important thing is to take care of your "status" BEFORE you die, because afterwards, you can't change anything.
If I am born again, which I believe I am, if God has it arranged so that I enter heaven immediately, that is fine with me. If my consciousness is in a state of suspended animation or unawareness until Christ comes back at a gathering together, that's fine, too.
Whatever happens after I am dead, I have no control over. It's the moment by moment choices I make to live for Him today that matter the most in the long run, at least to me.
But as a side note, I know plenty of great, and I do mean GREAT men and women of God (Rev. and Mrs. Billy Graham, for instance), who are convinced a believer goes straight to heaven at the moment of death. And NO leadership I EVER met in TWI can hold a candle to the genuine evangelistic and pastoral ministries these two had.
I personally know very few people to have walked with such love and compassion in their lives in TWI, and NO ONE in TWI to have manifested their personal ministries on such a dynamic world-wide level and monumental impact, touching as many lives in such a powerfully positive way.
I lived through over two decades of a cult which professed an elitist gnostic attitude, and tragically oppressed people and stole their lives with their "knowledge."
So I do not believe searching for "an accurate knowledge" is the most important thing a believer should be doing. I think it's better to check the moral basics Jesus taught.
God understands the confusion TWI interjected into each of our lives and the doubts that it caused, and he understands as humans we make mistakes and can at times be unintentionally and horribly deceived. So as far as I am concerned, He understands where I am and will meet me at my own level, and lead me where He wants me to go, as long as I do my best to keep my heart, my motivations, and my actions pure.
Cat, what a great post!! I too believe that God will meet me at my level, and lead me where He wants me to go. To the best of my ability, I keep my heart, and my motivations pure like you. When I die, I want God to judge me as being the best person I knew how to be.
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong...
However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not God...like Catcup, I learned these things before I ever heard of twi.
As far as being "thankful" to Mr. Wierwille...I'm afraid that the severe damage that he inflicted on so many people in his life overshadows any thoughts of "thankfulness" on my part...
GM, good point!! I am thankful that TWI turned me on to God, but I think VPW was a POS. I have read here at the GSC, of many of the evil things he did to so many good people; it makes me glad that he is dead.
The really great things I learned from PFAL were things I realized after leaving TWI. Like the life lessons one can garner after surviving some traumatic event. I will NEVER make the same mistake again! The poison of PFAL resides in some of its content, and some in its application. The following points qualify a successful PFAL graduate by challenging them to meet certain criteria:
1. The greatest sin a PFAL grad can commit: doubting PFAL.
2. The unforgivable sin of any PFAL grad: letting people know the teacher is a sexual predator.
3. The PFAL grad's basic spiritual problem is becoming aware of the lack of integrity of the teacher. Once a grad overcomes that "problem" – there are no other problems.
4. The PFAL grad learns to create their own "reality" through the law of believing equals perceiving. Though nothing actually changes in the real world, the perception by the grad that they can manipulate reality is all that matters.
5. The PFAL grad learns to interpret the Bible by being well versed in PFAL principles, always in the context of PFAL or by a previous teaching using PFAL principles.
6. The PFAL grad learns to receive anything from God, one must: Know what PFAL says is available, know how PFAL says to get it, know what PFAL says you should do with it after you've got it, have TWI's needs and wants parallel with PFAL principles, and believe mastering PFAL makes God willing and able to grant your every wish.
7. The PFAL grad believes the greatest secret in the world today is that PFAL is the will of God. And that VPW has some purpose for the things he says, where he says it, why he says it, how he says it, to whom he says it, when he says it - and doesn't care if he plagiarized it.
Based on the above criteria I have since disqualified myself from being a successful PFAL grad by reason of sanity.
T-Bone, great post! In my opinion PFAL was a lot of garbage! And it was boring as Hell to listen too!
The more I took pfal, the more I learned. For instance ---
1.) I learned that you better NOT be late:
(helpful later on in life for job interviews).
2.) I learned the class instructor was ALWAYS right:
(helpful with biting my tongue when in disagreement with my boss at work).
3.) I learned to NEVER offer an unsolicited (or independant opinon):
(Refer back to number 2).
4.) I learned that positives are ALWAYS better than negatives:
(helpful knowledge when I FINALLY had a decent bank account).
5.) I learned that I was welcome as long as I didn't dissent with *party doctrine*:
(another helpful hint for the later *pathways of life* -- job or otherwise).
6.) I found out that my *worth* to them was directly proportionate to the folks I *recruited*:
(which helped me find a REAL job, and SHUN tele-marketing).
7.) I learned *money is everything*, since they wanted so much of my paycheck:
(after I started paying MYSELF first, and ignoring them -- I see they were right).
Sure I got a few things out of pfal (spiritually speaking), and though it took a few years for the above 7 to come into fruition -- those points above really are a lot of what I got out of pfal, twi, and the 10 or so years I was in. It was more like a lesson in life, rather than the biblical teaching aspect which they touted so much.
Twi spoke so loudly by their actions, it was hard to hear the words, eh?
:unsure: :unsure:
(P.S. --- Welcome to GreaseSpot Cafe!! In all seriousness -- glad to have you.)
D, thanks for your post!! I too learned something things in PFAL; namely that getting a class together was a lot of work! After a while, I got sick of all the pressure to put one together, and stopped taking the class. I always felt that we were under so much pressure to get a class together, that I couldn't enjoy my life. Finally, I stood back, and let others put the classes, and do all the work. I did all that nonsense when I was a WOW; I didn't have to do it anymore. Suddenly, I was able to live again, without feeling guilty that I hadn't signed anyone up for the class! God loved me, and approved of me, because I was me! What a great lesson that was for me to learn!!
I am no fan of vp or pfal, and I’ve tried at times to come up with anything at all positive I got from twi. There is one thing I do remember that caused me to sit bolt upright:
1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Oh geez. I am writing this post remembering something along the lines of had the devil known it blah, blah, blah. Now I read “princes” plural, and so I realize there is a good chance it refers to the government and church leaders…
The entire rest of the class I was bored beyond belief and uncomfortable from the metal chairs.
As far as are the dead alive now, I don’t care. I trust God to take care of it. The trinity? I didn’t believe it to start with. At the same time, I know twi diminished Jesus a LOT. I am not through with this subject.
Beyond that, I have a lot of Bible in my head and still have many twi doctrinal “fleas.” A real chaff and wheat situation, which I continue to sort thru, much like a big fire and sifting through the ashes.
For those that think twi was a great thing, well I don’t suppose to be a judge of what others should think.
Spot, I think you nailed it. I think most of what was taught in PFAL was garbage; however if others think it was a great class, good for them!
i would kinda like the dead to be alive so i could talk to them
i do have faith and hope of seeing them again
Ex, absolutely!! Several members of my family have died, and I believe I will see them again, and spend eternity with them. Perhaps, I am wrong, but U take great comfort in knowing that I will see them after ai die!
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Dot Matrix
David-
I read about Marsha in your post and thought I like this guy validating the Marsha story...
Then, I read what you said to Onephile and Thomas and I am not so sure. What are you saying? If you are trying to "love" and encourage them, I must say you seem a bit judging and mean. Please explain before my first opinion of you changes. Thanks.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Hi Mark!! Great post!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, I was never in the Corps, so I don't know that side of VBW. However, I heard VBW teach live a number of times, and I thought he was boring as Hell. I never understood why so many people thought he was such a great man of God; I thought he was a Country Bumpkin. I know some people will disagree with me, but that is/ was my opinion of the man.
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Grace Valerie Claire
High, ditto for me!! I thought I was going to change the world with what I learned in PFAL. Here I was 21 years old,and I believed almost all of what I learned in PFAL. Then I went out WOW, and I quickly learned that most of what VPW taught in PFAL was garbage, and very few people wanted it. Hell, toward the end of my WOW year, I didn't believe a lot of it either. I think I was a very foolish young girl, when I tried to sign people up for PFAL. After a while, I got smart, and just went through the motions. I was much happier, and after a while, I left TWI.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Cat, what a great post!! I too believe that God will meet me at my level, and lead me where He wants me to go. To the best of my ability, I keep my heart, and my motivations pure like you. When I die, I want God to judge me as being the best person I knew how to be.
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Grace Valerie Claire
GM, good point!! I am thankful that TWI turned me on to God, but I think VPW was a POS. I have read here at the GSC, of many of the evil things he did to so many good people; it makes me glad that he is dead.
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, great post! In my opinion PFAL was a lot of garbage! And it was boring as Hell to listen too!
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Grace Valerie Claire
D, thanks for your post!! I too learned something things in PFAL; namely that getting a class together was a lot of work! After a while, I got sick of all the pressure to put one together, and stopped taking the class. I always felt that we were under so much pressure to get a class together, that I couldn't enjoy my life. Finally, I stood back, and let others put the classes, and do all the work. I did all that nonsense when I was a WOW; I didn't have to do it anymore. Suddenly, I was able to live again, without feeling guilty that I hadn't signed anyone up for the class! God loved me, and approved of me, because I was me! What a great lesson that was for me to learn!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Spot, I think you nailed it. I think most of what was taught in PFAL was garbage; however if others think it was a great class, good for them!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Ex, absolutely!! Several members of my family have died, and I believe I will see them again, and spend eternity with them. Perhaps, I am wrong, but U take great comfort in knowing that I will see them after ai die!
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Nathan_Jr
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Nathan_Jr
All 72 pages... just...
...Mmmph!
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