One thing I can honestly say,is that the more I read the word,and attend church,the more I find out that what I was taught in P.F.A.L. was the truth. I am nothing but proud of what I learned, and how I learned it, and I love the people I was in twig with.
Not saying there are no problems,I am not blind, but I remember the excitement that I felt knowing that I found brothers and sisters that really loved God,and the word. I never felt more loved, and never found truer friends. But, it wasn,t that we were all in the ministry.It was because we are who we are, and we will always be birds of the same feather.
JING, Doug Simerly
Welcome Doug, I feel the same as you. Hope to read more of your posts.
Before we proceed further, we must define our terms. Many people may be misled because while using the same language or words, we don't mean the same thing. First of all, let me give the orthodox definition of Christian trinity. The doctrine of the trinity states that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God and together, not exclusively, they form one God. The trinity is co-eternal, without beginning or end, and co-equal. (from William Wilson Stevens, "Doctrine of the Christian Religion" (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Co., 1967) pp. 113-122.
Horror of horrors.. I'm suprised and agast.. he actually documented his source here..
According to Jesus, a false prophet is a bad tree. A bad tree can only produce one thing…bad fruit. He's NOT talking about the amount of fruit produced or the quality of fruit. He's talking about the TYPE of fruit! You don't go to a thorn bush to gather grapes or go to thistles to gather figs.
Well then on this basis, I don't see Dr. Wierwille being a false prophet or a bad tree. Why? Golly because good Godly fruit was produced by him, was manifested and confirmed through his teaching ministry. Gee if ya can't see that one, you'll never see it.
Some posters don't want to, can't, or refuse, to recognize the good fruit Dr. produced.
Christ tells us in Revelation he "walks among the churches." Thus, he is among us today - here and present and always has been.
...
We have holy spirit in us, and Christ walks among us and guides us.
John said he was in the spirit on the Lord's day. The Book of Revelation is a exposition of the future, not the present. The Lord's day is future, when Christ (and God) will walk and talk among us. That's what the Hope is all about.
As I see this, we have Christ in us and among us via the holy spirit and the scriptures.
But Christ Himself is not here; he has ascended and God has seated him on his right hand.
Christ himself is not here. If Christ himself were here and present, he wouldn't need to return.
Rape, adultery and alcoholism is NOT the fruit of a good tree.
I agree but would argue that these acts are not fruit at all, they are sins.
Can someone who does rape, adultery and alcohol be saved? Of course.
But if not, then Jesus hasn't saved to the uttermost and his sacrifice didn't cover some sins. God help us if that's true because those who hate Wierwille so much that they can't stop focusing on his sins may be in deep dooo dooo too. Along with a whole host of sinners who have sinned in this manner.
Well then on this basis, I don't see Dr. Wierwille being a false prophet or a bad tree. Why? Golly because good Godly fruit was produced by him, was manifested and confirmed through his teaching ministry. Gee if ya can't see that one, you'll never see it.
Some posters don't want to, can't, or refuse, to recognize the good fruit Dr. produced.
Oh, I recognize the "good fruit" alright. That's part of the Christian facade he propped up for folks to see. Ya know, a wolf has got to wear something that LOOKS like a sheep's.
I think the "you" in "Christ in you" is plural, leading some translators to render it, "Christ among you." What do you think?
I would have to look at the Greek Text on that – I'm at work right now…But I think it could work both ways – "Christ in you" – "Christ among you." And perhaps the latter is more applicable due to the context…The passage in John 14 is at a much more personal level – not addressing the "Christ collective" . I'm also thinking of the personal aspect that Paul mentions in Galatians:
Galatians 2:20 NKJV
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
I like your spatial reference, Another Dan - in your post # 1722 - that He transcends location…My itty bitty pea brain tries so hard to understand how God works. We're given very little specific details on how – none really. We're just assured that God will commune with us. That leads me to think it is a very subjective, personal thing – this communion…it would be different for each person then, wouldn't it?
We humans are trapped in a certain space and time. God inhabits eternity…some physicists working with super-string models/theories suggest there may be at least eleven (?) dimensions – I'm only aware of three [four, if you include time]. Imagine the capacities of a being who is not bound by any dimension [however many there really are] and with no temporal limitations.
I agree but would argue that these acts are not fruit at all, they are sins.
Oldiesman:
Gal 5:16-21 are DIRECT CONTRAST to Gal 5:22-26
The first list includes adultery, drunkenness, and an unheavenly host of other works of the flesh.
I'm not going to comment on whether or not VP was saved. I just know that Jesus said that His Father's house had many rooms - so IF VP was saved, I hope my room is far, far, far away from his.
More telling than this is the list of what the requirements for a minister are and how to recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Oldies, you need to learn about the Book of Revelation and the churches. And the end, where we are specifically told that Revelation is "written for the church." I'll take the Spirit's word instead of yours.
Also, I know VP publically told us, we did not need to study it.
In case someday you'd like to venture out,
Revelation, by Donald Barnhouse, available on Amazon, is probably one of the best books you will ever read on it.
I know, of course, if it isn't a VP/TWI sanctioned book, you will most likely ignore it, or, if you decide to read it, you may find yourself incredibly blessed.
I agree but would argue that these acts are not fruit at all, they are sins.
Can someone who does rape, adultery and alcohol be saved? Of course.
But if not, then Jesus hasn't saved to the uttermost and his sacrifice didn't cover some sins. God help us if that's true because those who hate Wierwille so much that they can't stop focusing on his sins may be in deep dooo dooo too. Along with a whole host of sinners who have sinned in this manner.
I'm not talking about whether or not vpw was saved. I don't think that's something we can figure out – we can't play God. Look at the context of Matthew 7:
Matthew 7:15-23 NKJV
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
According to the above passage - identifying a bad tree [false prophets, wolves] IS something our Lord said we can do. Only the Lord knows if someone shall enter the kingdom of heaven! vpw's salvation has never been an issue with me. I don't want to damn anybody to he11. Only God knows what's really going on in a person's heart…
I've said it before – I believe he was a good man at some point – until he let his sins dominate his life. Our God-given responsibility as Christians is to be on the lookout for false prophets, wolves – so as to protect God's flock.
I'm not interested in getting philosophical – can a Christian be a bad tree? I dunno....So many things to think about. That's not the issue here. Can a Christian spot a bad tree? I think it's possible for one who is armed with the criteria of Scripture.
But Christ Himself is not here; he has ascended and God has seated him on his right hand.
Christ himself is not here. If Christ himself were here and present, he wouldn't need to return.
It must be nice to have it so tidy and boxed up so pretty, like I used to have it (somebody else boxed Jesus up for me, and I "made it my own.") If it were in fact that way, I don't see why, when Jesus spoke of the Comforter he would send, he would say, "I wll not leave you comfortless; I will come to you." Again, we're talking "location." Is Jesus Christ in fact "up there" and not here?
Just before Pentecost, some of Jesus' disciples saw him ascend up into heaven, and a cloud received him out of their sight. An angelic message was delivered to them. This same Jesus would come "in like manner as you have seen him go" into heaven. This refers, of course, to the event you're talking about, Oldies -- the day of the Lord, when he shall return... the Second Coming of Christ. He came the first time to preach the Kingdom, make known the Father through his words and works, fulfil the Law, bring grace and truth, and die for our sins, "and not for ours only," but also for the sins of the whole world. (You may add other important aspects of his first coming... I'm not claiming comprehensiveness... I suppose all the world could not contain the books... you get the idea. I hope I didn't leave out your favorite aspect). He's coming again with a mighty hand and a mighty host, and he's going to make the heavens and earth right again.
Most of we who believe, I think, would agree that our times fall between those two events. Certainly, the lion is not laying with the lamb. It cannot be said that "there is no more sea," and that "every tear" is wiped away. That's future. But when Jesus said, "If I go not away..." he went on to say that this Comforter would come in his name, and again we have yet another unfinished discussion, including praying in his name, and whatsoever we do, doing it in his name. This is all "now" stuff.
OK, these are not definitive answers, but I hope they are part of the answers. A number of the posts that followed my last were a real blessing to read. Forgive me if I don't acknowledge you all by name. Sunesis, there are some things I hope to get to later about your excellent post.
snip...I think it could work both ways – "Christ in you" – "Christ among you." And perhaps the latter is more applicable due to the context…The passage in John 14 is at a much more personal level – not addressing the "Christ collective" . I'm also thinking of the personal aspect that Paul mentions in Galatians:
Galatians 2:20 NKJV
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Good points. "both ways" You described the personal well, with a good reference. There is also the corporate "in." And this is where I think the "Christ in you, the hope of glory" is pointing. Specifically, Paul is addressing the Gentiles, so the "you" is "you, Gentiles." That's why the reference to "this Mystery" is used, reminding us of the letter he wrote to the Ephesians (or as an encyclical... :P ) that the Gentiles would be fellowheirs, etc. of God's promise in Christ by the Gospel.
all for now... I'm going back to reading... haven't finished the thread
Now, I think the problem is: Is "Christ in you" the same as having "holy spirit" in you?
I don't think they are.
If its Christ in you, and holy spirit in you, then you have two separate spiritual things living in you because Christ and the comforter, i.e., the holy spirit which he promised to send, are two distinct beings. So we know this can't be correct, we don't have two distinct beings in us.
If, in the greek, it truly is Christ among you, well, then it fits. We have holy spirit in us, and Christ walks among us and guides us.
Then, we see, the ministry VP built on this phrase - this one main, major phrase, the mantra we chanted over and over - its Christ in you, Christ in you - is totally in error.
I agree that the fifth session was a very limited exposition of the message of "Christ in you, the hope of glory." It was totally directed, first, as an individual thing. "Does that make you a man or a woman, I should say so... throw your shoulders back and hold your head up high.... get outta the way, here comes a son of God!" (not an exact quote, OK? ... dang! I could use those brain cells for something else!) Again, I think this particular verse is talking about a corporate "in"---- i.e. "in" the Gentiles, or among them. In each of them, it is true, but that's not what it's talking about here. Where's that verse that says something like "don't you know that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobate"? (Again, a paraphrase, perhaps)
I agree that it's definitely not "two beings" -- holy spirit and Christ. The holy spirit is as much Christ as Christ is God (and as we all know... things equal to the same thing... I'M KIDDING!) Don't call ME a trinitarian! All the Father has is Christ's, and the Comforter "takes" from Christ's.
But I don't know about this:
If, in the greek, it truly is Christ among you, well, then it fits. We have holy spirit in us, and Christ walks among us and guides us.
I think "the Lord is that spirit," and as TBone said, "both."
Interesting thoughts Dan. Although, one of the first things I mused about after leaving TWI was also the incarnation - I finally understood it, in that regard, sure, go ahead, call me a trinitarian if you want :)
I really do believe there is a distinction between Christ, where he is now and what he is doing, and the Holy Spirit, the Comforter he sent to us. Christ is God's heart, the head of the Universe, the High Priest and King, the head of the body, our groom and the one to whom Judgment will belong.
The Holy Spirit, or Comforter is in this world now to convict mankind, individuals. I believe all men at some point must make a choice, to believe or not. Those who have never heard but love God, when Christ is revealed, will say, yes - that's who I was looking for. But, anyway, the Holy Spirit convicts and leads men to a choice about God. Those who accept Christ, he dwells within. We are "sealed" by him, in the same way the blood over the doorpost sealed the Jews in Egypt from the angel of death. We are sealed and spared the wrath to come.
The other thing the Holy Spirit does is teach us. It dwells in the world and in us. Its not just upon a select few anymore. When we are gathered, I think it will revert to what it did in the OT, upon a few. People will be able to believe Christ and will die as martyrs for him, but they will not be "born again" so to speak.
I did a word study once on apokolypsis - apokoloypse, years ago. It was amazing to note, that Christ's role now, today, as the risen One, is the "revealer" the apokalypse (sic). I do believe VP did get this right (ok, calm yourself Oldies) when he said God reveals to Christ who teaches your spirit.
I believe Christ reveals God's heart to us via the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. The Holy Spirit dwelling in us is how Christ also is with us. The spirit is the conduit, so to speak, to our mind. It teaches us. Like say I'm reading a scripture and suddenly - OMG - its awesome, I've never seen it like that. I think Christ says to the Spirit, go ahead, reveal it to her. The Spirit is the river that carries Christ to us in our physical body - mind.
I know I can pray to Christ and he hears and delivers, but I would not pray to the Holy Spirit - two distinct things.
Doreen, i think what you have written represents what most people, i guess i can only write for myself, but would like to think,MOST PEOPLE, feel in their hearts. thank you.....my husband, myself and oldest daughter took the PFAL class on the south side of chicago in 1973. thank GOD it was made available to us, it saved my marriage and made me a whole better person, also to know that i have a one on one relationship with GOD is so great. thank you again for all that you have written GOD bless! sarckat
Doreen, i think what you have written represents what most people, i guess i can only write for myself, but would like to think,MOST PEOPLE, feel in their hearts. thank you.....my husband, myself and oldest daughter took the PFAL class on the south side of chicago in 1973. thank GOD it was made available to us, it saved my marriage and made me a whole better person, also to know that i have a one on one relationship with GOD is so great. thank you again for all that you have written GOD bless! sarckat
You are right, you can only write for yourself.
As Raf answered Doreen at the beginning of this long thread, you will find a variety of answers here. Also, what most people who have had PFAL who participate in these forums feel in their hearts may or may not be the same as what most people anywhere who have had PFAL feel. It doesn't matter; you have given your testimony and no one can really refute that, as long as you dont try to make your testimony everyone else's experienced also (Like we were ALL blessed or we were ALL deceived, etc) and you don't do that here.
I agree with most of you as well. While it is rather sad to hear about all the "plagerism" and such, I am very thankful for many things from the ORIGINAL PFAL Class, no matter "just where" it really came from. It had such heart! To learn that the Bible, when properly understood does not contradict itself was a wonderful discovery for me.
I still work the scriptures using the Biblical Keys we were shown and have found many wonderful things we were NOT TAUGHT which bless me tremendously.
It used to be that when something was discovered which made "more sense" than what was origianally taught, there was a change. TWI used to be meek enough to ACT on it. Nowadays, you run yourself into a "brick wall" even trying to introduce such things.
Here is an example of a "change" made:
In PFAL, VPW (discussing the manifestations in I Co 12ff) said something to the effect that "These are not in any particular order here because it is simply a list." I remember the "amusing rhetoric" when he was talking about TONGUES -- "Well, something has to be last! Oh! -- but YOU said it was LAST -- Well, it's NOT LAST, its SECOND LAST!" (fond memories -- ha! ha!)
But later on, he put out a little research paper called "Numerics and the Manifestations" - available in the Advanced Class - which goes into quite some depth about how these manifestations REALLY ARE IN ORDER, even though they are not actually NUMBERED IN ORDER, which (by the way) would be a "step stronger" to me as a figure of speech.
I too, had seen that truth myself from working the Word on my own, and was very refreshed to see it had been changed.
I'm "afraid" though, that TWI never did what the Founder wanted after he was gone - and that was to continue taking the Word FURTHER than he did. That takes listening to the rest of the "TREE", so to speak - and that does not seem "available" these days. All in all, I think TWI has become "traditionalized" by holding onto much error which could be changed if they REALLY looked into issues brought by others NOT ON STAFF OR CORPS etc, instead of ignoring their findings until they just get fed up and leave!
Many have become rather bitter of even most of what was taught in PFAL (as we see many places on this site).
However, I myself am thankful for those things I was taught which DID (and still do) make sense. And when I hear something better, I change, for I just cannot help it - because I am convinced of my own free will!
...I'm "afraid" though, that TWI never did what the Founder wanted after he was gone - and that was to continue taking the Word FURTHER than he did. That takes listening to the rest of the "TREE", so to speak - and that does not seem "available" these days. All in all, I think TWI has become "traditionalized" by holding onto much error which could be changed if they REALLY looked into issues brought by others NOT ON STAFF OR CORPS etc, instead of ignoring their findings until they just get fed up and leave!...
One of the reasons followers never took it "further" than vpw was because they never questioned his "rule" - you can't go beyond what you're taught. Word Wolf referred to vpw's silly rule as intellectual hobbling. I don't think the founder could see past his own ego. There was such an oppressive atmosphere under his reign – though most folks were unaware of his iron-fisted grip on their thought process – it was just something understood by committed followers –your teachings and research must never contradict anything vpw taught.
You make a good point though – most leadership had a TWI mindset that was cast in concrete so dense as to bring creative/critical thinking skills to a standstill and for that matter immobilize any response to the Holy Spirit. TWI was never interested in change, addressing errors or issues – their only concern was maintaining the status quo.
I am very thankful for many things from the ORIGINAL PFAL Class, no matter "just where" it really came from. It had such heart! To learn that the Bible, when properly understood does not contradict itself was a wonderful discovery for me.
I have seen several people over the years grudgingly admit that there were good things taught in PFAL and in the Way, but they are quick to point out their opinion that it is not to the credit of VPW, but to the credit of God teaching people in spite of VPW. Well, glory be to God! I think maybe they dont realize that there are quite a few of us who found some value in the things we were taught and realize that God, not VPW, should get the glory for whatever good we learned. When, at ROA 1976, VPW deliberately misquoted Ephesians as "Finally, my brethren, be strong in V.P. Wierwille", the "no" response he got wasn't loud enough for him. For show? OK, let it be so and let us take him at his word on that and be strong in the Lord. Not too long ago, a poster stated that the things we learned in PFAL or TWI didnt have anything to do with the "heinous" actions of VPW. When one of our long time posters stated an agreement with that, the first poster suddenyl deleted the original statement.
Anyway, Spectrum, it doesnt sound like you are a VPW worshipper, just a God worshipper.
I have seen several people over the years grudgingly admit that there were good things taught in PFAL and in the Way, but they are quick to point out their opinion that it is not to the credit of VPW, but to the credit of God teaching people in spite of VPW. Well, glory be to God! I think maybe they dont realize that there are quite a few of us who found some value in the things we were taught and realize that God, not VPW, should get the glory for whatever good we learned. When, at ROA 1976, VPW deliberately misquoted Ephesians as "Finally, my brethren, be strong in V.P. Wierwille", the "no" response he got wasn't loud enough for him. For show? OK, let it be so and let us take him at his word on that and be strong in the Lord. Not too long ago, a poster stated that the things we learned in PFAL or TWI didnt have anything to do with the "heinous" actions of VPW. When one of our long time posters stated an agreement with that, the first poster suddenyl deleted the original statement.
Anyway, Spectrum, it doesnt sound like you are a VPW worshipper, just a God worshipper.
vpw: "Finally, my brethren, be strong in VP Wierwille."
crowd:"No."
vpw:"Say it LOUDER!"
crowd:"NO!"
vpw:"That's right.
You're not strong in VP Wierwille. Many of you have heard God's Word through my ministry,
but I didn't die for you."
(shouted from offsides):"It was Jesus Christ!"
vpw:"You said it man!"
There were times-like then, like in ROA 77, when he covered Hebrews 13, when vpw claimed we were to look to
Jesus Christ, and not to himself or any other leader. I think this was correct to say.
"OK, let it be so and let us take him at his word on that and be strong in the Lord."
After I left Twi, I really didn't want to think about what I might have learned from PFAL. These discussions have given me the freedom to sort through what attracted me to it in the first place, as well as the negative and damaging aspects of Twi. I grew up in a Free Will Baptist church background with strong emphasis on hellfire and brimstone. I found the environment to be very authoritarian and legalistic and the moment I turned eighteen ran away screaming. T year before I had flirted with atheism, so it was refreshing to hear a message of grace and forgiveness, not condemnation. It was a message I later found after I left Twi in the Presbyterian Church, and at least if Pfal did nothing else it showed me there were other ways to approach spirituality than the narrow upbringing of my parents. Some of the other aspects -- sonship rights, the belief that all could manifest the nine gifts of holy spirit, wereaspects I found refreshing at the time, having experienced elitism and second-class treatment at the hands of my Pentecostal peers at school as a teenager. That said, the negative flipside of the coin of the Law of Believing was one of the more damaging aspects of PFal which I experienced firsthand in the form of isolation the week I fell and broke my arm. I'm not sure if I would have reached different conclusions about God on my own than the ones taught in my upbringing without Twi and the Pfal course, but think in the end I came away more true to myself and more outspoken in standing up against spiritual abuse and legalism in religion that keep people in fear.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
oldiesman
Welcome Doug, I feel the same as you. Hope to read more of your posts.
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Ham
Horror of horrors.. I'm suprised and agast.. he actually documented his source here..
I guess miracles do abound..
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oldiesman
Well then on this basis, I don't see Dr. Wierwille being a false prophet or a bad tree. Why? Golly because good Godly fruit was produced by him, was manifested and confirmed through his teaching ministry. Gee if ya can't see that one, you'll never see it.
Some posters don't want to, can't, or refuse, to recognize the good fruit Dr. produced.
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rascal
Rape, adultery and alcoholism is NOT the fruit of a good tree.
What I refuse to do ignore the fruit vpw manifested....his works do not change that.
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Ham
Hmm. Well.. if he was such a good tree.. how come I've been pulling thistles out of my miserable hide for the last decade or so..
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oldiesman
John said he was in the spirit on the Lord's day. The Book of Revelation is a exposition of the future, not the present. The Lord's day is future, when Christ (and God) will walk and talk among us. That's what the Hope is all about.
As I see this, we have Christ in us and among us via the holy spirit and the scriptures.
But Christ Himself is not here; he has ascended and God has seated him on his right hand.
Christ himself is not here. If Christ himself were here and present, he wouldn't need to return.
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oldiesman
I agree but would argue that these acts are not fruit at all, they are sins.
Can someone who does rape, adultery and alcohol be saved? Of course.
But if not, then Jesus hasn't saved to the uttermost and his sacrifice didn't cover some sins. God help us if that's true because those who hate Wierwille so much that they can't stop focusing on his sins may be in deep dooo dooo too. Along with a whole host of sinners who have sinned in this manner.
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T-Bone
Oh, I recognize the "good fruit" alright. That's part of the Christian facade he propped up for folks to see. Ya know, a wolf has got to wear something that LOOKS like a sheep's.
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Ham
Fruit.. hmm.
reminds me of an old fairy tale..
"cmere, little girl.. here's a nice shiny red apple for you.."
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T-Bone
I would have to look at the Greek Text on that – I'm at work right now…But I think it could work both ways – "Christ in you" – "Christ among you." And perhaps the latter is more applicable due to the context…The passage in John 14 is at a much more personal level – not addressing the "Christ collective"
. I'm also thinking of the personal aspect that Paul mentions in Galatians:
Galatians 2:20 NKJV
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
I like your spatial reference, Another Dan - in your post # 1722 - that He transcends location…My itty bitty pea brain tries so hard to understand how God works. We're given very little specific details on how – none really. We're just assured that God will commune with us. That leads me to think it is a very subjective, personal thing – this communion…it would be different for each person then, wouldn't it?
We humans are trapped in a certain space and time. God inhabits eternity…some physicists working with super-string models/theories suggest there may be at least eleven (?) dimensions – I'm only aware of three [four, if you include time]. Imagine the capacities of a being who is not bound by any dimension [however many there really are] and with no temporal limitations.
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doojable
Oldiesman:
Gal 5:16-21 are DIRECT CONTRAST to Gal 5:22-26
The first list includes adultery, drunkenness, and an unheavenly host of other works of the flesh.
I'm not going to comment on whether or not VP was saved. I just know that Jesus said that His Father's house had many rooms - so IF VP was saved, I hope my room is far, far, far away from his.
More telling than this is the list of what the requirements for a minister are and how to recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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Ham
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Sunesis
Oldies, you need to learn about the Book of Revelation and the churches. And the end, where we are specifically told that Revelation is "written for the church." I'll take the Spirit's word instead of yours.
Also, I know VP publically told us, we did not need to study it.
In case someday you'd like to venture out,
Revelation, by Donald Barnhouse, available on Amazon, is probably one of the best books you will ever read on it.
I know, of course, if it isn't a VP/TWI sanctioned book, you will most likely ignore it, or, if you decide to read it, you may find yourself incredibly blessed.
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T-Bone
I'm not talking about whether or not vpw was saved. I don't think that's something we can figure out – we can't play God. Look at the context of Matthew 7:
Matthew 7:15-23 NKJV
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
According to the above passage - identifying a bad tree [false prophets, wolves] IS something our Lord said we can do. Only the Lord knows if someone shall enter the kingdom of heaven! vpw's salvation has never been an issue with me. I don't want to damn anybody to he11. Only God knows what's really going on in a person's heart…
I've said it before – I believe he was a good man at some point – until he let his sins dominate his life. Our God-given responsibility as Christians is to be on the lookout for false prophets, wolves – so as to protect God's flock.
I'm not interested in getting philosophical – can a Christian be a bad tree? I dunno....So many things to think about. That's not the issue here. Can a Christian spot a bad tree? I think it's possible for one who is armed with the criteria of Scripture.
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anotherDan
It must be nice to have it so tidy and boxed up so pretty, like I used to have it (somebody else boxed Jesus up for me, and I "made it my own.") If it were in fact that way, I don't see why, when Jesus spoke of the Comforter he would send, he would say, "I wll not leave you comfortless; I will come to you." Again, we're talking "location." Is Jesus Christ in fact "up there" and not here?
Just before Pentecost, some of Jesus' disciples saw him ascend up into heaven, and a cloud received him out of their sight. An angelic message was delivered to them. This same Jesus would come "in like manner as you have seen him go" into heaven. This refers, of course, to the event you're talking about, Oldies -- the day of the Lord, when he shall return... the Second Coming of Christ. He came the first time to preach the Kingdom, make known the Father through his words and works, fulfil the Law, bring grace and truth, and die for our sins, "and not for ours only," but also for the sins of the whole world. (You may add other important aspects of his first coming... I'm not claiming comprehensiveness... I suppose all the world could not contain the books... you get the idea. I hope I didn't leave out your favorite aspect). He's coming again with a mighty hand and a mighty host, and he's going to make the heavens and earth right again.
Most of we who believe, I think, would agree that our times fall between those two events. Certainly, the lion is not laying with the lamb. It cannot be said that "there is no more sea," and that "every tear" is wiped away. That's future. But when Jesus said, "If I go not away..." he went on to say that this Comforter would come in his name, and again we have yet another unfinished discussion, including praying in his name, and whatsoever we do, doing it in his name. This is all "now" stuff.
OK, these are not definitive answers, but I hope they are part of the answers. A number of the posts that followed my last were a real blessing to read. Forgive me if I don't acknowledge you all by name. Sunesis, there are some things I hope to get to later about your excellent post.
Good points. "both ways" You described the personal well, with a good reference. There is also the corporate "in." And this is where I think the "Christ in you, the hope of glory" is pointing. Specifically, Paul is addressing the Gentiles, so the "you" is "you, Gentiles." That's why the reference to "this Mystery" is used, reminding us of the letter he wrote to the Ephesians (or as an encyclical... :P ) that the Gentiles would be fellowheirs, etc. of God's promise in Christ by the Gospel.
all for now... I'm going back to reading... haven't finished the thread
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anotherDan
I agree that the fifth session was a very limited exposition of the message of "Christ in you, the hope of glory." It was totally directed, first, as an individual thing. "Does that make you a man or a woman, I should say so... throw your shoulders back and hold your head up high.... get outta the way, here comes a son of God!" (not an exact quote, OK? ... dang! I could use those brain cells for something else!) Again, I think this particular verse is talking about a corporate "in"---- i.e. "in" the Gentiles, or among them. In each of them, it is true, but that's not what it's talking about here. Where's that verse that says something like "don't you know that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobate"? (Again, a paraphrase, perhaps)
I agree that it's definitely not "two beings" -- holy spirit and Christ. The holy spirit is as much Christ as Christ is God (and as we all know... things equal to the same thing... I'M KIDDING!) Don't call ME a trinitarian! All the Father has is Christ's, and the Comforter "takes" from Christ's.
But I don't know about this:
I think "the Lord is that spirit," and as TBone said, "both."
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Sunesis
Interesting thoughts Dan. Although, one of the first things I mused about after leaving TWI was also the incarnation - I finally understood it, in that regard, sure, go ahead, call me a trinitarian if you want :)
I really do believe there is a distinction between Christ, where he is now and what he is doing, and the Holy Spirit, the Comforter he sent to us. Christ is God's heart, the head of the Universe, the High Priest and King, the head of the body, our groom and the one to whom Judgment will belong.
The Holy Spirit, or Comforter is in this world now to convict mankind, individuals. I believe all men at some point must make a choice, to believe or not. Those who have never heard but love God, when Christ is revealed, will say, yes - that's who I was looking for. But, anyway, the Holy Spirit convicts and leads men to a choice about God. Those who accept Christ, he dwells within. We are "sealed" by him, in the same way the blood over the doorpost sealed the Jews in Egypt from the angel of death. We are sealed and spared the wrath to come.
The other thing the Holy Spirit does is teach us. It dwells in the world and in us. Its not just upon a select few anymore. When we are gathered, I think it will revert to what it did in the OT, upon a few. People will be able to believe Christ and will die as martyrs for him, but they will not be "born again" so to speak.
I did a word study once on apokolypsis - apokoloypse, years ago. It was amazing to note, that Christ's role now, today, as the risen One, is the "revealer" the apokalypse (sic). I do believe VP did get this right (ok, calm yourself Oldies) when he said God reveals to Christ who teaches your spirit.
I believe Christ reveals God's heart to us via the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. The Holy Spirit dwelling in us is how Christ also is with us. The spirit is the conduit, so to speak, to our mind. It teaches us. Like say I'm reading a scripture and suddenly - OMG - its awesome, I've never seen it like that. I think Christ says to the Spirit, go ahead, reveal it to her. The Spirit is the river that carries Christ to us in our physical body - mind.
I know I can pray to Christ and he hears and delivers, but I would not pray to the Holy Spirit - two distinct things.
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sarckat
Doreen, i think what you have written represents what most people, i guess i can only write for myself, but would like to think,MOST PEOPLE, feel in their hearts. thank you.....my husband, myself and oldest daughter took the PFAL class on the south side of chicago in 1973. thank GOD it was made available to us, it saved my marriage and made me a whole better person, also to know that i have a one on one relationship with GOD is so great. thank you again for all that you have written GOD bless! sarckat
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Lifted Up
You are right, you can only write for yourself.
As Raf answered Doreen at the beginning of this long thread, you will find a variety of answers here. Also, what most people who have had PFAL who participate in these forums feel in their hearts may or may not be the same as what most people anywhere who have had PFAL feel. It doesn't matter; you have given your testimony and no one can really refute that, as long as you dont try to make your testimony everyone else's experienced also (Like we were ALL blessed or we were ALL deceived, etc) and you don't do that here.
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spectrum49
I agree with most of you as well. While it is rather sad to hear about all the "plagerism" and such, I am very thankful for many things from the ORIGINAL PFAL Class, no matter "just where" it really came from. It had such heart! To learn that the Bible, when properly understood does not contradict itself was a wonderful discovery for me.
I still work the scriptures using the Biblical Keys we were shown and have found many wonderful things we were NOT TAUGHT which bless me tremendously.
It used to be that when something was discovered which made "more sense" than what was origianally taught, there was a change. TWI used to be meek enough to ACT on it. Nowadays, you run yourself into a "brick wall" even trying to introduce such things.
Here is an example of a "change" made:
In PFAL, VPW (discussing the manifestations in I Co 12ff) said something to the effect that "These are not in any particular order here because it is simply a list." I remember the "amusing rhetoric" when he was talking about TONGUES -- "Well, something has to be last! Oh! -- but YOU said it was LAST -- Well, it's NOT LAST, its SECOND LAST!" (fond memories -- ha! ha!)
But later on, he put out a little research paper called "Numerics and the Manifestations" - available in the Advanced Class - which goes into quite some depth about how these manifestations REALLY ARE IN ORDER, even though they are not actually NUMBERED IN ORDER, which (by the way) would be a "step stronger" to me as a figure of speech.
I too, had seen that truth myself from working the Word on my own, and was very refreshed to see it had been changed.
I'm "afraid" though, that TWI never did what the Founder wanted after he was gone - and that was to continue taking the Word FURTHER than he did. That takes listening to the rest of the "TREE", so to speak - and that does not seem "available" these days. All in all, I think TWI has become "traditionalized" by holding onto much error which could be changed if they REALLY looked into issues brought by others NOT ON STAFF OR CORPS etc, instead of ignoring their findings until they just get fed up and leave!
Many have become rather bitter of even most of what was taught in PFAL (as we see many places on this site).
However, I myself am thankful for those things I was taught which DID (and still do) make sense. And when I hear something better, I change, for I just cannot help it - because I am convinced of my own free will!
Great comments by most on this post.
Spec
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T-Bone
One of the reasons followers never took it "further" than vpw was because they never questioned his "rule" - you can't go beyond what you're taught. Word Wolf referred to vpw's silly rule as intellectual hobbling. I don't think the founder could see past his own ego. There was such an oppressive atmosphere under his reign – though most folks were unaware of his iron-fisted grip on their thought process – it was just something understood by committed followers – your teachings and research must never contradict anything vpw taught.
You make a good point though – most leadership had a TWI mindset that was cast in concrete so dense as to bring creative/critical thinking skills to a standstill and for that matter immobilize any response to the Holy Spirit. TWI was never interested in change, addressing errors or issues – their only concern was maintaining the status quo.
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Lifted Up
I have seen several people over the years grudgingly admit that there were good things taught in PFAL and in the Way, but they are quick to point out their opinion that it is not to the credit of VPW, but to the credit of God teaching people in spite of VPW. Well, glory be to God! I think maybe they dont realize that there are quite a few of us who found some value in the things we were taught and realize that God, not VPW, should get the glory for whatever good we learned. When, at ROA 1976, VPW deliberately misquoted Ephesians as "Finally, my brethren, be strong in V.P. Wierwille", the "no" response he got wasn't loud enough for him. For show? OK, let it be so and let us take him at his word on that and be strong in the Lord. Not too long ago, a poster stated that the things we learned in PFAL or TWI didnt have anything to do with the "heinous" actions of VPW. When one of our long time posters stated an agreement with that, the first poster suddenyl deleted the original statement.
Anyway, Spectrum, it doesnt sound like you are a VPW worshipper, just a God worshipper.
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WordWolf
vpw: "Finally, my brethren, be strong in VP Wierwille."
crowd:"No."
vpw:"Say it LOUDER!"
crowd:"NO!"
vpw:"That's right.
You're not strong in VP Wierwille. Many of you have heard God's Word through my ministry,
but I didn't die for you."
(shouted from offsides):"It was Jesus Christ!"
vpw:"You said it man!"
There were times-like then, like in ROA 77, when he covered Hebrews 13, when vpw claimed we were to look to
Jesus Christ, and not to himself or any other leader. I think this was correct to say.
"OK, let it be so and let us take him at his word on that and be strong in the Lord."
I agree.
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aball001
After I left Twi, I really didn't want to think about what I might have learned from PFAL. These discussions have given me the freedom to sort through what attracted me to it in the first place, as well as the negative and damaging aspects of Twi. I grew up in a Free Will Baptist church background with strong emphasis on hellfire and brimstone. I found the environment to be very authoritarian and legalistic and the moment I turned eighteen ran away screaming. T year before I had flirted with atheism, so it was refreshing to hear a message of grace and forgiveness, not condemnation. It was a message I later found after I left Twi in the Presbyterian Church, and at least if Pfal did nothing else it showed me there were other ways to approach spirituality than the narrow upbringing of my parents. Some of the other aspects -- sonship rights, the belief that all could manifest the nine gifts of holy spirit, wereaspects I found refreshing at the time, having experienced elitism and second-class treatment at the hands of my Pentecostal peers at school as a teenager. That said, the negative flipside of the coin of the Law of Believing was one of the more damaging aspects of PFal which I experienced firsthand in the form of isolation the week I fell and broke my arm. I'm not sure if I would have reached different conclusions about God on my own than the ones taught in my upbringing without Twi and the Pfal course, but think in the end I came away more true to myself and more outspoken in standing up against spiritual abuse and legalism in religion that keep people in fear.
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