These things DID happen to your brothers and sisters in christ ....some of it documented in courts of law, many many instances of first hand accounts have been reported here and on other sites and corroborated.
John Lynn himself confirmed that the young women had been drugged and raped. Posters (note plural here) here and other sites reported being given drinks by your man of God (I say that with the utmost sarcasm) Geer only to later awake being raped by vpw.
Is that too graphic? Do you care about the lives destroyed? Do you care about the women who were marked and avoided who were declared posessed and so slandered that their own families would have nothing to do with them by the time vp or lcm were done because they seemed likely to tell or didn`t cooperate???
HOW can a genuine christian, commit these atrocities??? I don`t think they can...I don`t think that the word the word and nothing but the word makes you a Christian, a man of the spirit, or even a person of character and decency.
Again I say ... there is much more necessary to the christian walk than an idolatry of the scripture, which I believe was evidenced by the men who were unspeakably evil to the innocent entrusted to that ministry.
Scriptural mastery doesn`t impress me one bit, Charity, peace, long suffering gentleness meekness, loving God loving your neighbor ...THESE things are what we were told identified our spiritual brothers and sisters...I notice that not once is knowledge of the scriptures listed a s a fruit of one of the spirit.
I do notice that in spite of the word the word and nothing but the word wierwille/lcm/geer had no problem with indulging in rampant alcoholism fornication, adultery, anger, lust etc ...(JUST to name a few) all clearly activities that identify someone who is of the flesh.
I think that you are earnest and genuine in your understanding of your responsibility...I just think that there is a lot more to the eqaution than you have been taught.
We have more responsibility than scriptural study to one another.
We as in the posters ( not three year old idiots needing his long sermons on what life is when it is totaly off topic and he accuses me of not getting what he is saying right .
he doesnt say anything he just evades and goes into a story.. then when ya have to guess at what he is talking about he doesnt explain again he just accuses you of assuming. and becomes a victim of misunderstanding once again .
ya know in twi the leaders did the same thing pointed at how misunderstood the whole situation is by everyone but refused to give any details of what the problem was.. they of course had followers who backed them up and enjoyed the endless run around with alot of words about nothing and certainly leaving out much . some like others to tell them what to think even if it doesnt make any darn sense...
geez am i glad i changed and now question what people say and think for myself and find my own information that is important to the issue instead of listening to a person use far to many words about nothing and thinking yeah that MUST be it because he says he loves God and the word.
Are your finger-pointing haranguing accusations over yet, Rascal?
I get it. You are on a Godly mission from the true God to drum in posters' brains that VP & LCM & Co. were evil men. Drugging and raping and drugging and raping and drugging and raping young helpless girls. It can't be said enough. Over and over and over again, it needs to be said over and over and over again. And again.
But, can't you tolerate some posts about what some posters learned in PFAL without engaging in your endless tirades? Sure you can. You are a very loving person. Yes. The end.
Deciderator, I don`t mind if you call me honey, though I am sure that you meant that sarcastically (I am from the south too lol :) ) but just so we are clear....I cannot recall referring to you as *dear*.
You are at a point here....you are being offered the chance for the next step in spiritual growth and understanding. It is your chance. We have all been where you are now....we have all had to face this choice....whether to take that next step, whether to face the difficult truth concerning the debauchery and cruelty of twi leaders. You can learn the truth, the true spiritual natures of the people who instructed you, who layed the flawed foundation of your basic understanding....or you can retreat back to where you feel safe and warm, protected by that which is familiar to you. Your choice, nobody can make it for you. The only person limited is you.
Oldies, I am sorry that you find the evidence of the spiritual nature of those whom you still hold in high regard disturbing...truly...but that will not prevent me from speaking the truth which you wish to remain hidden or inconsequential.
It happened, they did it......it ain`t ever going away...I think it is a big hairy deal and I don`t intend to EVER stop talking about it
Ya know, I gotta agree with Deciderator on a major point. It is The Word and nothing but the Word, and I liked that part of PFAL also. It really doesn't matter what you or I think when it comes to God's Word. Obviously, there are inaccuracies an multitudes of Christian ministries, but when it is the true Word of God when found, that accurate Word of God should be held "par excellant"(sp?) in our hearts and minds. I think Jesus would agree with that also. He believed it to the letter, and look at what he did in life, for you and me. I think I'll try to follow his example. "Not my will, but thine be done..."
Just pondering here....
It seems that whenever this topic of vpw's proclamation It's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word surfaces.....two camps are formed here at GS:
1) The Word.....represents the original God-breathed word that holy men of God spoke as they were moved by holy spirit
OR
2) The "Word" wherein vpw takes many liberties when referring to things in Scripture that he just knows but cannot document.
I think that most Christians would desire to understand "the first camp of thought"....and desire to study the holy writ that God made available. But, in my opinion, the problem with many ex-twi followers' concept and understanding of "the Word".....is warped and shaky because vpw KEEPS ADDING AND AUGMENTING HIS WAY through the pfal class that doesn't follow sound, biblical research.
And, taking one step further.....when wierwille held his bible high in the air and proclaimed It's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word........NOW, other thoughts arise in my little brain. For instance...John 1:1-3 and John 1:14......in brief, GOD is noted as "The Word" and in verse 8, "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" namely Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word.
So, are we saying:
1) It's God, God and nothing but God...............(God and His Word are inseparable, right?)
2) It's the God-breathed Word, the God-breathed Word and nothing but the God-breathed Word as holy men of God spake as they were moved by Holy Spirit
3) It's Jesus, yes Jesus and nothing but Jesus Christ
If we're talking about THIS..............count me in. Hallelujah
If we're talking about the pfal class with wierwille's additions.........count me out.
Wrong again Oldies....THIS thread is about things learned in pfal AND DO I still believe them.
The spiritual nature of the men who taught and believed pfal IS a major factor concerning WHY I don`t believe what I was taught....ie a valid point to be presented.
The discussion that you are trying to hijack between deciderator and myself, is concerning whether or not the point of *it`s the word it`s the word, it`s the word* is a valid biblical truth, or even a spiritually healthy concept. I think that there is ample evidence presented in the lives of the men who lived and died by this code to contend that assertion.
Deciderator, I don`t mind if you call me honey, though I am sure that you meant that sarcastically (I am from the south too lol :) ) but just so we are clear....I cannot recall referring to you as *dear*.
WHOOPS!
My mistake. I'm sorry, I was wrong.
It was pond.
But I sure do loves me the Southern womens!
You are at a point here....you are being offered the chance for the next step in spiritual growth and understanding. It is your chance. We have all been where you are now....we have all had to face this choice....whether to take that next step, whether to face the difficult truth concerning the debauchery and cruelty of twi leaders. You can learn the truth, the true spiritual natures of the people who instructed you, who layed the flawed foundation of your basic understanding....or you can retreat back to where you feel safe and warm, protected by that which is familiar to you. Your choice, nobody can make it for you. The only person limited is you.
The only thing I will listen to concerning spiritual matters is how someone handles the Scriptures.
I was so distant from a lot of TWI that they did not have the impact you imagine.
In the last 17 years since I have been away from them I have not retreated anywhere.
It's not my style.
While I lead a quiet and peaceable life, I'm also restless in many respects. I'm a man in motion and I am moving forward with my life, not backward. I like doing new things.
Since I posted in this forum, there has been case after case of people just out and out fabricating false opinions and motivations and ascribing them to me.
Purely knee-jerk reactions by those who see TWI or PFAL and go NUTS! NUTS! NUTS!
I hope you understand that when someone treats me that way right of the bat, I am not as open to what they say as I would have been otherwise.
I hope you paid attention to what I posted about giving people a fair shake in terms of accusations.
You may someday end up in a courtroom on the other end of false accusations as I have been. Accusations accompanied by evidence that, when presented on their own before I had a chance to challenge them, looked mighty bad.
Deciderator, please be absolutely certain that the charges I level against these men are well documented. I did not post them lightly or for shock value.
The information is available, it is yours to be had with very little effort. The question is....does the truth matter to you?
Only you can decide if you believe that the spiritual nature of these men contaminated the scriptures they lay down as a foundation.
Trust me, if the information that I presented was not factual, you would have had a half a dozen people jumping all over me at this point calling me a liar and exagerator of facts.
Nobody contests that these events and many worse happened at the hands of vp...of lcm...of geer and so many many others....any more .....where the difference in opinions lie is the conclusions that we draw.
The pfal/twi/vpw fans think that these minor shortcomings don`t contaminate the end product.
I contend that their actions are listed in galatians 5 as those of somebody who is of the flesh who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God....scriptures are very clear...no wiggle room.
I have a little problem with trusting ANY idea that men of the flesh would put forward on ANY spiritual matter.
You have a choice here. Find out if what I said concerning your teachers are true...or continue to remain in blissfull ignorance....then depending on your choice....the next step ..you must decide once aware of the entire unplatable truth...whether that affects your perception of spiritual matters.
I hope that you do not read me as antagonistic, or mean spirited. I am neither, I am simply earnest in my desire that people know the entire truth.
The only thing I will listen to concerning spiritual matters is how someone handles the Scriptures.
I was so distant from a lot of TWI that they did not have the impact you imagine.
In the last 17 years since I have been away from them I have not retreated anywhere.
It's not my style.
While I lead a quiet and peaceable life, I'm also restless in many respects. I'm a man in motion and I am moving forward with my life, not backward. I like doing new things.
Since I posted in this forum, there has been case after case of people just out and out fabricating false opinions and motivations and ascribing them to me.
Purely knee-jerk reactions by those who see TWI or PFAL and go NUTS! NUTS! NUTS!
I hope you understand that when someone treats me that way right of the bat, I am not as open to what they say as I would have been otherwise.
I hope you paid attention to what I posted about giving people a fair shake in terms of accusations.
You may someday end up in a courtroom on the other end of false accusations as I have been. Accusations accompanied by evidence that, when presented on their own before I had a chance to challenge them, looked mighty bad.
my goodness your the one with all the accusations and now threats to fear.
but still not one answered question about what is this word you say is nothing but.
you like to talk about yourself enough that is clear to read why is it so difficult for you to define one term you say vpw was right in nothing but the word.
the question is what word are you talking about hmm?
so just keep thinking we all want to be rivited to your emotions about everything but what the heck this thread is about.
my goodness your the one with all the accusations and now threats to fear.
but still not one answered question about what is this word you say is nothing but.
you like to talk about yourself enough that is clear to read why is it so difficult for you to define one term you say vpw was right in nothing but the word.
the question is what word are you talking about hmm?
so just keep thinking we all want to be rivited to your emotions about everything but what the heck this thread is about.
lol
ooops myself and even after oldman marked and avoided me! not a we an I would like to know what is this word we are to have hmm? pfal the bible verses a famous preacher who what.
1) It's God, God and nothing but God...............(God and His Word are inseparable, right?)
2) It's the God-breathed Word, the God-breathed Word and nothing but the God-breathed Word as holy men of God spake as they were moved by Holy Spirit
3) It's Jesus, yes Jesus and nothing but Jesus Christ
If we're talking about THIS..............count me in. Hallelujah
If we're talking about the pfal class with wierwille's additions.........count me out.
If this is the case, count me in, too! Thank you, skyrider! You took the words right out of my mouth, and I think you said it better than I could have anyway!
They may well be true, but everyone deserves a fair shake.
They deserve the presumption of innocence and the right to face their accusers, the right to cross examine hostile witnesses, the right to present exculpatory evidence, the right to present friendly witnesses and the right to appeal after conviction. Are you referring me to all that?
I am only concerned with how the Scriptures are handled.
The only one I have dealt with you named was Chris Geer. I was at Gartmore for 6 weeks in 1990 and I didn't see anyone raped or turned into sex slaves.
I saw a guy twist an ankle.
My twig coordinator had given me some material (History of the Mystery and some other things) he wasn't supposed to give me and I took it to Gartmore with me.
One day not long after I got there I was out hitchhiking and Geer picked me up.
I told him about this stuff and that I was bringing it back, had made no copies and would be happy to pack my bags if he didn't like it. I told him I wanted him to clear my twig coordinator for giving me this material.
Geer was nice about it, smiled and told me to keep the material, cleared my twig coordinator and I stayed with no repercutions.
The classes I took there, the fellowship and the things I worked on my own made for a wonderful experience.
I'm sorry if that makes you unhappy.
I am not concerned with personalities or their personal failings.
I started out with seeking a better knowledge of the Bible and that's the path I am trying to stay on.
Please don't make any presumptions about what I have worked on my own, what I hold forth or what I believe.
The only thing I will listen to concerning spiritual matters is how someone handles the Scriptures.
[so, claiming that in the nation of Israel, "technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king",
which completely contradicts the entire Mosaic Law,
does that count as handling Scriptures, and not doing so correctly?
How about claims that under grace, sex between 2 people not married to each other is fine "if you can handle it,"
which contradicts the Epistles,
does that count as handling Scriptures, and not doing so correctly?
And how someone handles the Scriptures PRIVATELY, is that insignificant compared to how they handle
it PUBLICKLY at the podium? If so, Jimmy Swaggart was immaculate, since he was perfect
AT THE PODIUM but acted poorly IN PRIVATE.
That's 3 questions.]
I was so distant from a lot of TWI that they did not have the impact you imagine.
In the last 17 years since I have been away from them I have not retreated anywhere.
It's not my style.
While I lead a quiet and peaceable life, I'm also restless in many respects. I'm a man in motion and I am moving forward with my life, not backward. I like doing new things.
[That's wonderful.]
Since I posted in this forum, there has been case after case of people just out and out fabricating false opinions and motivations and ascribing them to me.
I noticed you counted me among them.
I ASKED YOU specific questions- which you didn't answer, BTW-
and said what generally happened when someone arrived and began making pronouncements,
which is why you got the reaction you did.
You responded by saying I said YOU meant that- which is jumping to a conclusion.
(Then blaming me for putting words in your mouth.)
You might review the posts of the others and see if you've similarly ascribed error and malice where none existed.
Just a suggestion, since you made that mistake in ONE case...]
Purely knee-jerk reactions by those who see TWI or PFAL and go NUTS! NUTS! NUTS!
I hope you understand that when someone treats me that way right of the bat, I am not as open to what they say as I would have been otherwise.
[Ah, at least some of those posts, that's not what happened, but you labelled them so
IMMEDIATELY, which allowed you to dismiss them "with a clear conscience".
BTW, there were also some purely knee-jerk reactions by those who see someone claim
vpw was harmless and didn't really hurt anyone and say "WELL DONE! TOTALLY TRUE!"
You took those as endorsement of your position-which is as fair as automatically
abandoning your position because someone said "NUTS! NUTS! NUTS!"
While we're on the subject, precisely WHO did that knee-jerk reaction you're claiming,
and what did they say?
You MIGHT be POLARIZING the issues,
reducing them to BLACK AND WHITE THINKING.
That's come up already.]
I hope you paid attention to what I posted about giving people a fair shake in terms of accusations.
You may someday end up in a courtroom on the other end of false accusations as I have been. Accusations accompanied by evidence that, when presented on their own before I had a chance to challenge them, looked mighty bad.
Ever consider that there's a wealth of information, including many eyewitnesses and confessions from
members of the inner circle who facilitated the felonies,
and that by themselves, they're pretty damning, even leaving out the direct testimony of the victims?
I BEGAN from the position that vpw was probably innocent- and didn't want him to be guilty.
However, examining the wealth of testimony HONESTLY, I found that position UNSUPPORTABLE.
Now, if I was eager to dismiss all of them to maintain my comfortable viewpoint,
perhaps I would be posting little encouragements when you posted otherwise-
another of the apologists for vpw.
Of course, if you've already decided anything I post is without merit, you probably won't consider
any of this no matter how sound the advice. However, I've no guarantee you've done that.
OK, the information IS out there....if you ever desire the truth.
One thing to remember.... Satan wasn`t any less evil just because he was a scriptural master.....ergo neither does scriptural mastery make vp/lcm/geer/jim jones/david koresche trustworthy or even a genuine Christian....the evidence is to the contrary.
The only way we can determine for sure whether someone is of the flesh or of the spirit.... is to do as the scriptures require us and examine the fruit of one another to determine HOW to recognise one another, to identify false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing.
To bury your head in the bible oblivious to all else IS much easier....but really does not fall under the injunctions that Jesus charged us with.
at best you do some work and research and come to your own conclusions on what it may have meant.
just like everyone elese does.
good luck with your work.
"the word and only the word" that vpw exclaimed and you say is what is you admire about his teaching is then.. some reading and working of a whole butch of stuff written by other people and your inspiration spin or take on what it means to you.
no assumption there it is what you say with out saying it.
you do not have the one and only spin no matter how convinced you are so is everyone eles.
and i do believe most do believe it is the word and nothing but the word that means anything to them.
Ever wonder why people who extol the virtues of cliches such as "it's the word, the word and nothing but the word" and "the integrity of the word is at stake" and "having done all, STAND!." seem to have a stubborn reluctance to look at information that is readily available here at GSC?
Could it be because one of the "big things they learned in PFAL" was to never allow themselves to question or doubt?
I mean, hey--------That's how the devil was able to trick Eve,right?
Deciderator. The fact is, when a person here says anything positive about what they learned in The Way Ministry, or from VPW, or from CG, or from when they were out WOW or in The Corps, there is a definite knee jerk reaction by a certain group here (who seem to be well represented in this feeding frenzy), who will tear at and try to tear down anything positive about The Way. It infuriates them that the "well laid out work" that they have presented has any opposition whatsoever, even though the poster presenting something positive is not even trying to "be in opposition", but rather, just wants to share. But also remember, there are many many here who do not post, but rather watch and lurk and read and endeavor to make up their own minds in these matters, and I, personally like to try and present those positive aspects that I found in The Way Ministry, so that things here are not so one sided.
Now, for the record. Here is my general position on things back when I was involved with what I and a few others refer to as TWI One, which is the era between The Way's beginnings and the time when Craig Martindale went ballistic around 1990 or so, which I and some others refer to as TWI Two. And TWI 2, from what I have gathered here and from first hand accounts from friends who are now out was an insanity that would never ever have held me! In fact, many here are probably people who stayed with and worshipped LCM and dissed me and my wife (and friends like us) to the MAX as sick and possessed copouts, mark and avoids, during those years after we were kicked out in 1990. And yet they judge so harshly....
Anyway, I believe that the ministry started out in an effort to truly help God's people. That VPW wanted to help, and that he developed the PFAL class in order to help people. And, I believe that he helped alot of people through that class, me included. I prayed on my knees late one night in the wheel house of the cruise ship I worked on, and asked God to send a Christian person to me to show me the way to Him. The very next day, a WOW gal came to work as a cocktail waitress, and she witnessed to me on the spot and the rest is history. I believed/believe that God answered that prayer, and I always will. But, as I moved along within The Way Ministry, I saw changes that went from the delightful, to the not so cool, to the very very bad. I believe that with the influx of money and power, VPW was not able to control his lusts, lusts no more heinous than those of fallen men we read of in both the old and new testaments of the Bible, and people were then used and hurt. I know for a fact that there were beaucoups sex scandals. I was ordained in The Way, and was a branch leader on the field at most, but I was also privy to some higher ups's goins ons, and it began to disturb me a good deal. And now down the road, I have talked to old friends, females, who witnessed and even took part in some of these alleged sex scandals, which to me are now no longer just "allegations", but rather, true stories. And of course, LCM was in fact busted in a court of law for his infidelities.
But I contend that it was all a very good thing gone very bad. Many folks here, however, contend that it was all a scam from the start, and that VPW very cleverly, from it's onset, put it all together to be a "money and sex farm", which I simply do not believe. I see the sins committed as sins no different than what have been very common to man throughout history, both biblically and secularly. But, that's what you are up against here, and so, just remember, if you say anything positive about The Way, and in this case anything from PFAL which you still believe (and therefore have a favorable view of which is what the thread author requested), you are going to get lambasted in what I believe to be in a very dishonest way.
You paint with a mighty broad brush there concerning other peoples positions and beliefs concerning twi JL.
Maybe vp believed the whole schpiel himself...maybe he was the most greatly decieved of us all. I see no place in the scriptures that actually say that false prophets or wolves in sheep clothing necessarily realise that they are false.
All I know that with drunkeness, drugging and rape and adultery and destroying of lives laid at his feet...to name but a few....it gives serious rise to the question of whether or not he was ever a genuine Christian.
Certainly if one is to believe what the scriptures say about men of the flesh and fruit of the spirit.
Anyway, I believe that the ministry started out in an effort to truly help God's people. That VPW wanted to help, and that he developed the PFAL class in order to help people. And, I believe that he helped alot of people through that class, me included. I prayed on my knees late one night in the wheel house of the cruise ship I worked on, and asked God to send a Christian person to me to show me the way to Him. The very next day, a WOW gal came to work as a cocktail waitress, and she witnessed to me on the spot and the rest is history. I believed/believe that God answered that prayer, and I always will.
Jonny - I guess I have never, ever given credit to vpw for helping folks.
God helped you.
God sent that girl.
He could have sent anyone - but she was the gal that was there and her heart was open to hearing His voice.
God answered that prayer - this is true. It was God and His word that healed you and helped you.
It is quite fair of you to take that position. But, I do not. My next example usually draws a knee jerk reaction, but, Once upon a time, young David was a fair haired youth. He was as pure hearted as an Alaska summer day is long. He trusted God, and with cojones like none other, slew Goliath. He was an honorable servant of God, who did God's will. And yet later on, he took the wife of the honorable Uriah, knocked her up, and with complicity, tried to get the honorable Uriah to go and spend the night with his wife in order to create a cover up for her child soon to be born. But, as we know, Uriah The Honorable, would not take part in such pleasures, even at the King's urging (which equals permission), and refused to do it. And as we know, David, by Uriah's unwitting hand, sent the Death Note to Joab who followed David's orders, and had him killed. Now, that was purdy danged heinous, is it not? Think of the destroyed lives as a result of that? What about Uriah's brothers and sisters? What about his parents and possibly grand parents? What about Bathsheba's family? Maybe they were proud of and loved their daughter's honorable warrior husband. Just maybe there were those who thought that it was suspicious that Joab put Uriah into the heart of the hottest battle and then withdrew, "and now all of the sudden, Bathsheba is the King's wife! Now just what the Sam Hill's goin on here!?" But all of that latter is just speculation, but certainly a possibility, knowing human nature.
And yet, David repented, and later wrote much scripture in that he became trusted of God to do so. Did VPW repent? Dunno. Maybe. Maybe not. But, I think I personally am ready to let God Almighty decide whether or not VPW was born again, and whether or not he actually started out to help people or not...
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
rascal
These things DID happen to your brothers and sisters in christ ....some of it documented in courts of law, many many instances of first hand accounts have been reported here and on other sites and corroborated.
John Lynn himself confirmed that the young women had been drugged and raped. Posters (note plural here) here and other sites reported being given drinks by your man of God (I say that with the utmost sarcasm) Geer only to later awake being raped by vpw.
Is that too graphic? Do you care about the lives destroyed? Do you care about the women who were marked and avoided who were declared posessed and so slandered that their own families would have nothing to do with them by the time vp or lcm were done because they seemed likely to tell or didn`t cooperate???
HOW can a genuine christian, commit these atrocities??? I don`t think they can...I don`t think that the word the word and nothing but the word makes you a Christian, a man of the spirit, or even a person of character and decency.
Again I say ... there is much more necessary to the christian walk than an idolatry of the scripture, which I believe was evidenced by the men who were unspeakably evil to the innocent entrusted to that ministry.
Scriptural mastery doesn`t impress me one bit, Charity, peace, long suffering gentleness meekness, loving God loving your neighbor ...THESE things are what we were told identified our spiritual brothers and sisters...I notice that not once is knowledge of the scriptures listed a s a fruit of one of the spirit.
I do notice that in spite of the word the word and nothing but the word wierwille/lcm/geer had no problem with indulging in rampant alcoholism fornication, adultery, anger, lust etc ...(JUST to name a few) all clearly activities that identify someone who is of the flesh.
I think that you are earnest and genuine in your understanding of your responsibility...I just think that there is a lot more to the eqaution than you have been taught.
We have more responsibility than scriptural study to one another.
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pond
We as in the posters ( not three year old idiots needing his long sermons on what life is when it is totaly off topic and he accuses me of not getting what he is saying right .
he doesnt say anything he just evades and goes into a story.. then when ya have to guess at what he is talking about he doesnt explain again he just accuses you of assuming. and becomes a victim of misunderstanding once again .
ya know in twi the leaders did the same thing pointed at how misunderstood the whole situation is by everyone but refused to give any details of what the problem was.. they of course had followers who backed them up and enjoyed the endless run around with alot of words about nothing and certainly leaving out much . some like others to tell them what to think even if it doesnt make any darn sense...
geez am i glad i changed and now question what people say and think for myself and find my own information that is important to the issue instead of listening to a person use far to many words about nothing and thinking yeah that MUST be it because he says he loves God and the word.
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oldiesman
Are your finger-pointing haranguing accusations over yet, Rascal?
I get it. You are on a Godly mission from the true God to drum in posters' brains that VP & LCM & Co. were evil men. Drugging and raping and drugging and raping and drugging and raping young helpless girls. It can't be said enough. Over and over and over again, it needs to be said over and over and over again. And again.
But, can't you tolerate some posts about what some posters learned in PFAL without engaging in your endless tirades? Sure you can. You are a very loving person. Yes. The end.
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rascal
Deciderator, I don`t mind if you call me honey, though I am sure that you meant that sarcastically (I am from the south too lol :) ) but just so we are clear....I cannot recall referring to you as *dear*.
You are at a point here....you are being offered the chance for the next step in spiritual growth and understanding. It is your chance. We have all been where you are now....we have all had to face this choice....whether to take that next step, whether to face the difficult truth concerning the debauchery and cruelty of twi leaders. You can learn the truth, the true spiritual natures of the people who instructed you, who layed the flawed foundation of your basic understanding....or you can retreat back to where you feel safe and warm, protected by that which is familiar to you. Your choice, nobody can make it for you. The only person limited is you.
Oldies, I am sorry that you find the evidence of the spiritual nature of those whom you still hold in high regard disturbing...truly...but that will not prevent me from speaking the truth which you wish to remain hidden or inconsequential.
It happened, they did it......it ain`t ever going away...I think it is a big hairy deal and I don`t intend to EVER stop talking about it
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oldiesman
Yes, I understand. But this thread isn't about Wierwille's big hairy sins, it's about sharing things learned in PFAL.
Have a nice weekend.
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Deciderator
It's in the thread title and everything...
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skyrider
Just pondering here....
It seems that whenever this topic of vpw's proclamation It's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word surfaces.....two camps are formed here at GS:
1) The Word.....represents the original God-breathed word that holy men of God spoke as they were moved by holy spirit
OR
2) The "Word" wherein vpw takes many liberties when referring to things in Scripture that he just knows but cannot document.
I think that most Christians would desire to understand "the first camp of thought"....and desire to study the holy writ that God made available. But, in my opinion, the problem with many ex-twi followers' concept and understanding of "the Word".....is warped and shaky because vpw KEEPS ADDING AND AUGMENTING HIS WAY through the pfal class that doesn't follow sound, biblical research.
And, taking one step further.....when wierwille held his bible high in the air and proclaimed It's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word........NOW, other thoughts arise in my little brain. For instance...John 1:1-3 and John 1:14......in brief, GOD is noted as "The Word" and in verse 8, "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" namely Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word.
So, are we saying:
1) It's God, God and nothing but God...............(God and His Word are inseparable, right?)
2) It's the God-breathed Word, the God-breathed Word and nothing but the God-breathed Word as holy men of God spake as they were moved by Holy Spirit
3) It's Jesus, yes Jesus and nothing but Jesus Christ
If we're talking about THIS..............count me in. Hallelujah
If we're talking about the pfal class with wierwille's additions.........count me out.
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rascal
Wrong again Oldies....THIS thread is about things learned in pfal AND DO I still believe them.
The spiritual nature of the men who taught and believed pfal IS a major factor concerning WHY I don`t believe what I was taught....ie a valid point to be presented.
The discussion that you are trying to hijack between deciderator and myself, is concerning whether or not the point of *it`s the word it`s the word, it`s the word* is a valid biblical truth, or even a spiritually healthy concept. I think that there is ample evidence presented in the lives of the men who lived and died by this code to contend that assertion.
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Deciderator
WHOOPS!
My mistake. I'm sorry, I was wrong.
It was pond.
But I sure do loves me the Southern womens!
The only thing I will listen to concerning spiritual matters is how someone handles the Scriptures.
I was so distant from a lot of TWI that they did not have the impact you imagine.
In the last 17 years since I have been away from them I have not retreated anywhere.
It's not my style.
While I lead a quiet and peaceable life, I'm also restless in many respects. I'm a man in motion and I am moving forward with my life, not backward. I like doing new things.
Since I posted in this forum, there has been case after case of people just out and out fabricating false opinions and motivations and ascribing them to me.
Purely knee-jerk reactions by those who see TWI or PFAL and go NUTS! NUTS! NUTS!
I hope you understand that when someone treats me that way right of the bat, I am not as open to what they say as I would have been otherwise.
I hope you paid attention to what I posted about giving people a fair shake in terms of accusations.
You may someday end up in a courtroom on the other end of false accusations as I have been. Accusations accompanied by evidence that, when presented on their own before I had a chance to challenge them, looked mighty bad.
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rascal
Deciderator, please be absolutely certain that the charges I level against these men are well documented. I did not post them lightly or for shock value.
The information is available, it is yours to be had with very little effort. The question is....does the truth matter to you?
Only you can decide if you believe that the spiritual nature of these men contaminated the scriptures they lay down as a foundation.
Trust me, if the information that I presented was not factual, you would have had a half a dozen people jumping all over me at this point calling me a liar and exagerator of facts.
Nobody contests that these events and many worse happened at the hands of vp...of lcm...of geer and so many many others....any more .....where the difference in opinions lie is the conclusions that we draw.
The pfal/twi/vpw fans think that these minor shortcomings don`t contaminate the end product.
I contend that their actions are listed in galatians 5 as those of somebody who is of the flesh who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God....scriptures are very clear...no wiggle room.
I have a little problem with trusting ANY idea that men of the flesh would put forward on ANY spiritual matter.
You have a choice here. Find out if what I said concerning your teachers are true...or continue to remain in blissfull ignorance....then depending on your choice....the next step ..you must decide once aware of the entire unplatable truth...whether that affects your perception of spiritual matters.
I hope that you do not read me as antagonistic, or mean spirited. I am neither, I am simply earnest in my desire that people know the entire truth.
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pond
my goodness your the one with all the accusations and now threats to fear.
but still not one answered question about what is this word you say is nothing but.
you like to talk about yourself enough that is clear to read why is it so difficult for you to define one term you say vpw was right in nothing but the word.
the question is what word are you talking about hmm?
so just keep thinking we all want to be rivited to your emotions about everything but what the heck this thread is about.
lol
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pond
ooops myself and even after oldman marked and avoided me! not a we an I would like to know what is this word we are to have hmm? pfal the bible verses a famous preacher who what.
please
i think sky would like to know as well
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JavaJane
If this is the case, count me in, too! Thank you, skyrider! You took the words right out of my mouth, and I think you said it better than I could have anyway!
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Deciderator
They may well be true, but everyone deserves a fair shake.
They deserve the presumption of innocence and the right to face their accusers, the right to cross examine hostile witnesses, the right to present exculpatory evidence, the right to present friendly witnesses and the right to appeal after conviction. Are you referring me to all that?
I am only concerned with how the Scriptures are handled.
The only one I have dealt with you named was Chris Geer. I was at Gartmore for 6 weeks in 1990 and I didn't see anyone raped or turned into sex slaves.
I saw a guy twist an ankle.
My twig coordinator had given me some material (History of the Mystery and some other things) he wasn't supposed to give me and I took it to Gartmore with me.
One day not long after I got there I was out hitchhiking and Geer picked me up.
I told him about this stuff and that I was bringing it back, had made no copies and would be happy to pack my bags if he didn't like it. I told him I wanted him to clear my twig coordinator for giving me this material.
Geer was nice about it, smiled and told me to keep the material, cleared my twig coordinator and I stayed with no repercutions.
The classes I took there, the fellowship and the things I worked on my own made for a wonderful experience.
I'm sorry if that makes you unhappy.
I am not concerned with personalities or their personal failings.
I started out with seeking a better knowledge of the Bible and that's the path I am trying to stay on.
Please don't make any presumptions about what I have worked on my own, what I hold forth or what I believe.
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WordWolf
[so, claiming that in the nation of Israel, "technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king",
which completely contradicts the entire Mosaic Law,
does that count as handling Scriptures, and not doing so correctly?
How about claims that under grace, sex between 2 people not married to each other is fine "if you can handle it,"
which contradicts the Epistles,
does that count as handling Scriptures, and not doing so correctly?
And how someone handles the Scriptures PRIVATELY, is that insignificant compared to how they handle
it PUBLICKLY at the podium? If so, Jimmy Swaggart was immaculate, since he was perfect
AT THE PODIUM but acted poorly IN PRIVATE.
That's 3 questions.]
[That's wonderful.]I noticed you counted me among them.
I ASKED YOU specific questions- which you didn't answer, BTW-
and said what generally happened when someone arrived and began making pronouncements,
which is why you got the reaction you did.
You responded by saying I said YOU meant that- which is jumping to a conclusion.
(Then blaming me for putting words in your mouth.)
You might review the posts of the others and see if you've similarly ascribed error and malice where none existed.
Just a suggestion, since you made that mistake in ONE case...]
[Ah, at least some of those posts, that's not what happened, but you labelled them soIMMEDIATELY, which allowed you to dismiss them "with a clear conscience".
BTW, there were also some purely knee-jerk reactions by those who see someone claim
vpw was harmless and didn't really hurt anyone and say "WELL DONE! TOTALLY TRUE!"
You took those as endorsement of your position-which is as fair as automatically
abandoning your position because someone said "NUTS! NUTS! NUTS!"
While we're on the subject, precisely WHO did that knee-jerk reaction you're claiming,
and what did they say?
You MIGHT be POLARIZING the issues,
reducing them to BLACK AND WHITE THINKING.
That's come up already.]
Ever consider that there's a wealth of information, including many eyewitnesses and confessions from
members of the inner circle who facilitated the felonies,
and that by themselves, they're pretty damning, even leaving out the direct testimony of the victims?
I BEGAN from the position that vpw was probably innocent- and didn't want him to be guilty.
However, examining the wealth of testimony HONESTLY, I found that position UNSUPPORTABLE.
Now, if I was eager to dismiss all of them to maintain my comfortable viewpoint,
perhaps I would be posting little encouragements when you posted otherwise-
another of the apologists for vpw.
Of course, if you've already decided anything I post is without merit, you probably won't consider
any of this no matter how sound the advice. However, I've no guarantee you've done that.
And even if you did, you may reconsider.]
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Deciderator
What threats?
And my accusations are born out in black and white for anyone who goes back and re-reads what I posted.
If you had someone making up things about you how would you react?
And if you made up something about someone else, accidental or otherwise, once you saw you had done it, what is the proper thing to do?
Hmm?
The Word originally revealed.
I want to figure out what was in the original manuscripts and know how to put them together.
That's what I'm looking for.
That's what I've always looked for.
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rascal
OK, the information IS out there....if you ever desire the truth.
One thing to remember.... Satan wasn`t any less evil just because he was a scriptural master.....ergo neither does scriptural mastery make vp/lcm/geer/jim jones/david koresche trustworthy or even a genuine Christian....the evidence is to the contrary.
The only way we can determine for sure whether someone is of the flesh or of the spirit.... is to do as the scriptures require us and examine the fruit of one another to determine HOW to recognise one another, to identify false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing.
To bury your head in the bible oblivious to all else IS much easier....but really does not fall under the injunctions that Jesus charged us with.
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pond
ok the original manuscripts are gone long gone.
at best you do some work and research and come to your own conclusions on what it may have meant.
just like everyone elese does.
good luck with your work.
"the word and only the word" that vpw exclaimed and you say is what is you admire about his teaching is then.. some reading and working of a whole butch of stuff written by other people and your inspiration spin or take on what it means to you.
no assumption there it is what you say with out saying it.
you do not have the one and only spin no matter how convinced you are so is everyone eles.
and i do believe most do believe it is the word and nothing but the word that means anything to them.
their word.
the same as yours is everything important to you.
alot of words to be had.
thank you for answering my question.
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waysider
Ever wonder why people who extol the virtues of cliches such as "it's the word, the word and nothing but the word" and "the integrity of the word is at stake" and "having done all, STAND!." seem to have a stubborn reluctance to look at information that is readily available here at GSC?
Could it be because one of the "big things they learned in PFAL" was to never allow themselves to question or doubt?
I mean, hey--------That's how the devil was able to trick Eve,right?
(Or so we were told in PFAL.)
Man, that was one powerful lesson!
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J0nny Ling0
Deciderator. The fact is, when a person here says anything positive about what they learned in The Way Ministry, or from VPW, or from CG, or from when they were out WOW or in The Corps, there is a definite knee jerk reaction by a certain group here (who seem to be well represented in this feeding frenzy), who will tear at and try to tear down anything positive about The Way. It infuriates them that the "well laid out work" that they have presented has any opposition whatsoever, even though the poster presenting something positive is not even trying to "be in opposition", but rather, just wants to share. But also remember, there are many many here who do not post, but rather watch and lurk and read and endeavor to make up their own minds in these matters, and I, personally like to try and present those positive aspects that I found in The Way Ministry, so that things here are not so one sided.
Now, for the record. Here is my general position on things back when I was involved with what I and a few others refer to as TWI One, which is the era between The Way's beginnings and the time when Craig Martindale went ballistic around 1990 or so, which I and some others refer to as TWI Two. And TWI 2, from what I have gathered here and from first hand accounts from friends who are now out was an insanity that would never ever have held me! In fact, many here are probably people who stayed with and worshipped LCM and dissed me and my wife (and friends like us) to the MAX as sick and possessed copouts, mark and avoids, during those years after we were kicked out in 1990. And yet they judge so harshly....
Anyway, I believe that the ministry started out in an effort to truly help God's people. That VPW wanted to help, and that he developed the PFAL class in order to help people. And, I believe that he helped alot of people through that class, me included. I prayed on my knees late one night in the wheel house of the cruise ship I worked on, and asked God to send a Christian person to me to show me the way to Him. The very next day, a WOW gal came to work as a cocktail waitress, and she witnessed to me on the spot and the rest is history. I believed/believe that God answered that prayer, and I always will. But, as I moved along within The Way Ministry, I saw changes that went from the delightful, to the not so cool, to the very very bad. I believe that with the influx of money and power, VPW was not able to control his lusts, lusts no more heinous than those of fallen men we read of in both the old and new testaments of the Bible, and people were then used and hurt. I know for a fact that there were beaucoups sex scandals. I was ordained in The Way, and was a branch leader on the field at most, but I was also privy to some higher ups's goins ons, and it began to disturb me a good deal. And now down the road, I have talked to old friends, females, who witnessed and even took part in some of these alleged sex scandals, which to me are now no longer just "allegations", but rather, true stories. And of course, LCM was in fact busted in a court of law for his infidelities.
But I contend that it was all a very good thing gone very bad. Many folks here, however, contend that it was all a scam from the start, and that VPW very cleverly, from it's onset, put it all together to be a "money and sex farm", which I simply do not believe. I see the sins committed as sins no different than what have been very common to man throughout history, both biblically and secularly. But, that's what you are up against here, and so, just remember, if you say anything positive about The Way, and in this case anything from PFAL which you still believe (and therefore have a favorable view of which is what the thread author requested), you are going to get lambasted in what I believe to be in a very dishonest way.
Cheers all! Mmmwahh!
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rascal
You paint with a mighty broad brush there concerning other peoples positions and beliefs concerning twi JL.
Maybe vp believed the whole schpiel himself...maybe he was the most greatly decieved of us all. I see no place in the scriptures that actually say that false prophets or wolves in sheep clothing necessarily realise that they are false.
All I know that with drunkeness, drugging and rape and adultery and destroying of lives laid at his feet...to name but a few....it gives serious rise to the question of whether or not he was ever a genuine Christian.
Certainly if one is to believe what the scriptures say about men of the flesh and fruit of the spirit.
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doojable
Jonny - I guess I have never, ever given credit to vpw for helping folks.
God helped you.
God sent that girl.
He could have sent anyone - but she was the gal that was there and her heart was open to hearing His voice.
God answered that prayer - this is true. It was God and His word that healed you and helped you.
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J0nny Ling0
It is quite fair of you to take that position. But, I do not. My next example usually draws a knee jerk reaction, but, Once upon a time, young David was a fair haired youth. He was as pure hearted as an Alaska summer day is long. He trusted God, and with cojones like none other, slew Goliath. He was an honorable servant of God, who did God's will. And yet later on, he took the wife of the honorable Uriah, knocked her up, and with complicity, tried to get the honorable Uriah to go and spend the night with his wife in order to create a cover up for her child soon to be born. But, as we know, Uriah The Honorable, would not take part in such pleasures, even at the King's urging (which equals permission), and refused to do it. And as we know, David, by Uriah's unwitting hand, sent the Death Note to Joab who followed David's orders, and had him killed. Now, that was purdy danged heinous, is it not? Think of the destroyed lives as a result of that? What about Uriah's brothers and sisters? What about his parents and possibly grand parents? What about Bathsheba's family? Maybe they were proud of and loved their daughter's honorable warrior husband. Just maybe there were those who thought that it was suspicious that Joab put Uriah into the heart of the hottest battle and then withdrew, "and now all of the sudden, Bathsheba is the King's wife! Now just what the Sam Hill's goin on here!?" But all of that latter is just speculation, but certainly a possibility, knowing human nature.
And yet, David repented, and later wrote much scripture in that he became trusted of God to do so. Did VPW repent? Dunno. Maybe. Maybe not. But, I think I personally am ready to let God Almighty decide whether or not VPW was born again, and whether or not he actually started out to help people or not...
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J0nny Ling0
J
Yes Dooj, you are right. And, I edited this because I mis-understood you at first.
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