A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL

[Suda]

Page7 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Section 1 of 5 of this post)

(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread; Page 2 post #891 on page 45; Page 3 post #893 on page 45; Page 4 post #941, Page 48; Page 5 posted in 5 Sections, posts 1216-1217, and 1219-1220 on page 61, and 1221 page 62; Page 6 post 1081 on page 6)

As discussed in “my Page 6", page 11 started with Jonny Lingo’s response to Excathedra about m’s story.

I read it. Sad story. VP was a very bad man to do things like that. As bad as David for murdering Uriah and shagging hid wife, in my opinion. Too bad "M", or whoever that is didn't have the guts to walk away that first time like my wife did when Craig tried the same s h it on her. I still liked PFAL, and am thankful for having the privilege to have been able to sit through it.

His post concerned me because he appeared to be reading it from the viewpoint of “an armchair quarterback” watching the re-run of a game. It lacked empathy and compassion. He placed as much responsibility on m as he did on vpw and his accessories to the crime. There is a striking contrast, but consistent similarities, between this post and his previous one to Exie concerning the sexual abuse accounts, and his current perception of vpw in light of the abuse stories. In response to his pov of the accounts, he refers to his previous answer to Rascal to a similar question, and then expounds upon it. Both are quoted below, along with his current perception of vpw.

Rascal, I recognize those things as heinous. And I recognize that they happened in The Way. I am just saying that I don't believe that it was VPWs intent at first, that he wanted to help at first but went bad due to the same sins that mankind many times succumbs to, that's all. . . . any kind of extramarital sex with the MOGS . . encouraged by them is in fact a sin and is as I said "heinous". . . What do I think of VPW you ask? I am thankful to God that he taught the PFAL class, and that I got to sit through it. I am very not happy that he succumbed to the desires of the flesh and hurt so many people. But I won't throw out the good that I learned from him just because he lost it and became a really bad guy when the power went to his head.

Note the contrast: previously heinous was used to describe accounts; m’s story is sad. It is logical to assume that since he has said twice before such acts were heinous, he sees no need to repeat it here. He acknowledges people were hurt, but I hear no sense of outrage in his reply concerning m’s story. As to his perception of VPW, it conjures up memories of teachings I heard (maybe in CF&S or the Advanced Class, or both) when VPW was recounting the story of David and Uriah. He noted that since the dawn of time, the devil got to people through pressure or pleasures. And the primary pleasure that overtook men was in the sexual arena. How understandable it was that David, looking out his window and catching a view of the beautiful Bathsheba bathing, would get overcome by the flesh and desire her. She was so enticing, and maybe purposefully so. And then he gave examples from the Bible of others who had fallen to similar temptations as David. And didn’t all of us know of men that it had happened to? A chief problem in marriage “in the world” was infidelity by husbands. Even JFK was renowned for his sexual escapades. It was couched in such a way that you might go “Yeah. That’s pretty typical. That must be all men’s Achilles heel. It’s so common, it’s almost to be expected.” So the fact that he, VPW, was overtaken by that very same conduct, could be viewed by some as “it just shows he was as human as the rest of us, fell for the same trick that gets most men”. That part of him was “the bad guy”. That term in my mind minimizes the offense when taken by him, versus being heinous when committed by others. But in truth, there are many men who eschew adultery. It is also one of the few (if not only) reasons given in the Bible that is grounds for divorce. While some men commit adultery, most I know have not. Or they are so discreet, no rumor mill has ever picked up on the fact.

The reverence for clergy is a part of our culture. You show respect for the vocation he has chosen, to dedicate his life to the service of God. Much as you show respect to a judge for his office, or a policeman for his public service. This reverence was emphasized even more in twi with the attention focused on protocol. There was a real stigma placed on speaking evil of a man ordained by God. In my mind there is a big difference between due respect, and a forbiddance to note evil in the life of a man of the cloth. But also note that Jonny was asked for his perception versus his opinion of VPW. In both instances he cites his belief that he started out with pure and honest intentions, and later lost his footing. And due respect for the benefits gained from him is justified to be accorded, imo. But Jonny does seem to have a reluctance to use the same strong words in reference to VPW as he does to his “sins”. Perhaps that is and example of how we are the love the sinner, but hate the sin. Don’t know. However, in post #285, Jonny responds to a post from Tom Strange, and states, “ I'm not a VP defender, so I guess I can't help you out there Tom." I take him at his word. Note his posts #422 and #735

I didn't even question the authenticity of the accusations . . . but have acknowledge the alleged crimes. Even if VP lured the girls to his bed via a (non existent) sexual magnetism (which evidently was not the case), it was wrong. No minister should ever do that. I have already said that in numerous ways here.

He **** e d up royally, hurting perhaps thousands,

As for his ending comment

I still liked PFAL, and am thankful for having the privilege to have been able to sit through it.

it seems that Jonny is sticking tenaciously to the original topic of the thread “A few things I learned from PFAL, do you still believe them?”. I certainly don’t fault him for that and actually admire his tenacity.

In Rascal’s post #203 she states regarding Deciderator

The discussion then went from that to cid accusing me of laying untrue charges at the feet of these men...ie calling me a liar because he didn`t want to believe it.(I suppose I am suppose to ignore THAT accusation as well)

I think she misunderstood what he was saying. As discussed previously, to some people there is a huge difference between stating something is true versus stating you believe it to be true or hold it to be true. And from a legal perspective, they are correct. And to say it is not true from a legal pov is not to say it is false, but that is unproven in legal terminology. That leaves room for anyone to come to their own belief concerning it, and holding their belief to be true.

Catcup responds to my post. It was excellent and cleared up my confusion over what she was trying to communicate in her earlier post. Thank you, Catcup. I see that she intentionally made an extreme comment in order to

It is to challenge someone’s thinking and get them to examine their values.

Much later, in post # 270, Lifted Up presents the perfect follow-up to my question. My answer to her question would be an emphatic YES! And I believe many here feel exactly that way.

Is it possible to be greatly thankful for what you got from TWI and deeply sorrowful for the unimaginable hurt someone else received in TWI?

Jonny’s post #210 made me smile. I strongly disagree with his characterization of Rascal; as discussed above, she was responding not to “a good thing” being said about PFAL, but to the admonition to stop talking about the past, and move forward. He brings this subject up again in post #422.

And, it seems as if it is many of the same people I met here when I first came to the GSCafe roughly three years ago. And those same people are still as angry and as injured by all of this as they were the day I "walked" into this cyber place.

That statement leads me to believe that Jonny is having a hard time distinguishing between people’s passion to expose the underbelly, with them still being “as angry and injured as they were 3 years ago.” He is talking about Rascal here, and perhaps others.

IMO, Rascal has healed tremendously. She does not think of this everyday, it’s not a thought she entertains unless and until it is brought up here again in a thread in response to an admonition to stop talking about the past, and move forward, because there is no value in exposing the darkness. And, Jonny as you are aware of the underbelly, accept the allegations as true, and find them heinous, it is true that you probably do not benefit from it being resurrected from time to time. But please note that Rascal’s motivation for bringing this information to this thread was in response to Deciderator, not you, for at least two reasons. (1) He questioned the benefit of exposing the underbelly, and (2) She did not know if he was aware of the underbelly, and believed it may have a bearing on his evaluation of some of the teachings of VPW if he did, and, therefore brought it to his attention, not yours. Of course you read it as you are following this thread, but that does not mean it was addressed to you. And I think you misread her passion as being in a constant state of anger. No, the passion only arises when the subject is revisited.

Rascal does not wake up each morning and go “Man, I’m angry about what vpw did to some of his followers”. And think about it all during the day. And then think about it last thing before she goes to bed at night. No, it never even crosses her mind unless it comes back up here on a thread or is brought to her attention again through some other means of communication. She is not obsessed with this idea. It does not fill in thoughts every waking moment of every day. But every time it is brought to her attention, her passion flares. I don’t take it as an indication that the bitterness regarding this subject is still deep in her soul, eating at her and tormenting her daily, but rather that indignant anger is expressed again whenever the subject is brought up. Remember, forgiving for mankind does not always equate to forgetting. God is capable of that, we are not.

If some kid beat your butt on the playground in the 2nd grade and it was traumatic to you, you are likely to never forget it. It resides somewhere in the recesses of your mind. You have probably forgiven that person and moved on. But if you run into them at your High School reunion, that thought may well resurface and when you think about it, you remember and express the anger you had at that time. That does not mean you are dwelling in bitterness, just that you remember it when it is brought to mind. In post #424 pond addresses the issue well:

maybe your down home feelings about this web site allows you to dismiss how important it is to them because it isn’t your pain or you mission to accomplish. so it easy for you to "move on" the idea of forgiveness and moving on in life is a very personal one and what may work for you with your angry feelings may not work for them.

I have to admire Jonny for ending his post with yet another good thing he learned from PFAL and that he still believes. He is as tenacious about speaking his passion as Rascal is about speaking hers. I love the tenacity in both of them. He also reminds me of how many gems there were compared to the rubble we had to sift through to find them. To me, many of the individual verses were the gems and stood alone, outside of the context which VPW was teaching, like scripture build-up, for instance. It took several times of sitting through the class before I was able to see the “big pictures” he was drawing. Most of the errors were in the big pictures, not the verses. And once I finally saw them, I realized why I hadn’t gotten them in the first place, because they were so confusing, I couldn’t comprehend them. Never could understand them, so never did believe them.

Edited August 25, 2007 by Suda

[Suda]

Page7 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Section 2 of 5 of this post)

The first part of Oldiesman’s post riled me.

QUOTE(Catcup @ Jul 29 2007, 09:58 AM So do you think all the sacrifices these women and others were forced to make, were worth your "blessing"?

That's pretty damn selfish, ...

I think it's much more selfish to antagonize folks who still love PFAL and the concepts they learned from it.

If someone were to believe that their receipt of a blessing was worth the sacrifice of someone else, they would be the epitome of selfishness. And to say that Catcup’s passion to expose the underbelly of twi is done in order to antagonize those who still love PFAL has failed to comprehend what she has written. Altruistic would describe her motivation, not selfishness.

To his next statement of comparing VPW and Solomon

I suppose they shouldn't be thought of as the same, as Solomon did MUCH worse evil!

I admit to being rusty on my knowledge of Solomon, but find it heartening to see OM does accept that VPW did commit evil acts, even if in his opinion they were much less worse than those committed by Solomon.

To Oldiesman post #224, all I can say is to repeat his words : Wow, what spin! Compare this clear description here with what he said earlier.

Post #213

I also think that the offshoots are great, especially CFF. They still hold VP AND PFAL IN HIGH REGARD. --- That must REALLY TICK SOME FOLKS OFF, know what I mean?

Post #224

Wow, what spin! They (the leaders) still hold Dr. Wierwille and his teachings (PFAL) in high regard. While repudiating Wierwille's sins, they still honor Dr. Wierwille for his works sake, which the bible says to do. Don't believe me, speak to Wayne Clapp. I did, a few months ago when he ran my sister's memorial service. Make no mistake, CFF honors Wierwille.

Huge distinction between holding someone in high regard and honoring someone for his works sake. The former is to highly esteem a person in totality; the latter is due respect.

To Catcup’s post of #228 - I love your honesty and integrity. You are a excellent example of a Godly woman, and have my upmost respect. Later, in reading post #254, I see your father’s hand in forming your sterling character. I’m proud of him, too! (Just love typing out these notes, so I can refer back to earlier topics!)

Post #251 from Oldiesman made me hoot. It sounded so ludicrous!

It wasn't the BG Leonard ministry where some folks got their help, it was twi. Nothing wrong with BG Leonard ministry, but it sounds like you're trying to exclude twi from the body of Christ.

And yes, Dr. Wierwille was part of the Body of Christ.

Just ask CFF...

Oldies, you’re right in that most posters here were affiliated with twi and not BG Leonard, but it was God who touched us through them. I laughed when I read you thought Tom Strange was trying to exclude an organization from the Body of Christ. In fact, I’m still laughing about it. I thought the Body of Christ was made up of people God called individually. And I don’t think God relies on Tom to tell Him who to include or exclude. Tom’s a mighty fine fellow, but probably not that fine yet! But we’ll see what God puts him in charge of for eternity. I agree with you (and I know, others do not) that VPW was a member of the Body of Christ. And then burst out laughing again that someone would need CFF to help them decide whether they believed this or not. Personally, I choose to make up my own mind about things, and rarely need confirmation from someone else to do so. And I think that goes for most everyone here.

Catcup’s post #295 is an excellent answer to Deciderator’s question of why don’t people move out of the darkness and dwell in the light. Catcup has dealt with the devastation she must have felt after learning what her sister had held in for 22 years, and realizing, that due to her twi mentality, she had “guarded” herself from her sister, and not reached out as she probably would have in any other circumstance in her time of great need. It took great honesty and courage for her to face that truth about herself, and realize she had withheld sisterly love she would have otherwise poured onto her sister. And to admit that if she had learned earlier, she probably would have cut her sister off, completely. And it takes even more courage to come here and openly admit her failing to others so that others can learn from her example. She has gone through the healing process, and now dwells in “the light” to use Deciderator’s phraseology. But she does not hesitate to revisit the darkness when she sees a benefit in it. Bravo, Catcup!

You're welcome Rascal. The real reason I share this stuff, is not because I need to say it. I have moved on with my life. But other people need to be freshly reminded not only of the pain that TWI caused, and can still cause, but they need to see there are still people out there who support that kind of predation, and that they are active and vicious . . . It underlines again, that if you do speak out, you risk being hurt again. But it exposes the wicked and their venom.

Excathedra rejoins us in post #297, and shares more than just a few words, and they speak volumes. In post #416 she succinctly describes the atrocity of vpw’s sexual abuse of those in his charge as a minister of God. Thanks, Exie!

did you read my post about what happened to me ?

QUOTE Jonny Lingo Thankful to know that I do not need to take a cute little lamby and kill it

too bad dr. wierwille didn't know that

From reading some of Excathedra’s posts and talking with her during podcasts, I believe she is one of the ex-twi’ers who have had to “peel many layers off their onion.” She seems to consistently be working through one layer after another, and making progress towards getting rid of the onion all together. What some fail to realize or understand is that each layer stems from the core devastation of being abused at the hands of the religious leader she trusted. That’s the core she is working to dismantle, but it had so many different effects on her life - thus the multitude of layers on her onion. But dealing with each layer starts with that core, and that core must a be addressed in shedding in layer. Jonny’s post #432 evidences he can not understand this component of her healing process.

Go ahead and wallow in your misery Excathedra. It's yours, you own it. Enjoy it I guess. No doubt there will always be people here to (((hug))) you here for your bravery to tell your story and be the queen victim of the GSCafe.

Edited August 25, 2007 by Suda

[Suda]

Page7 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Section 3 of 5 of this post)

Excathedra is not wallowing, she is doing all she can to peel layer after layer off until she is left with only that core, and then she can dispose of it. And I think she is close to that point. His comment of her (implied - wanting and enjoying) being the queen victim of the GSCafe, clearly illustrates to me he does not understand her healing process. And due to his misunderstanding or ignorance (not used in a derogatory fashion, in a descriptive sense), he sees her actions as trying garner attention and be hostess to a pity party. Nothing could be further from the truth, imo. This comment is hurtful. Her reply in post #436 makes this quite clear.

i'm not wallowing, believe it or not and i'm not enjoying it believe it or not

i do like the hugs, but they don't get me through the day or night

as does her post #449

well ham, it took a lot for me to get out the guns this time . . . and i'm wondering if it was worth it

WhiteDove, I’d like to give you a point of constructive criticism if I may. Your posts would be much easier to read and understand if you used punctuation and capitalization in all of them. I find I have to re-read them several times to find “the natural pauses” where a “.” or a “?” or a “,” should be inserted. I think others would have an easier time understanding the excellent points you make in your posts if you helped them by using punctuation.

In post #362, Doojable makes an excellent point that I think bears repeating.

Note please that God never puts Bathsheba's ability to "just say, 'No"" on trial. He never even mentions whether or not Bathsheba was moral. He didn't compare her to the woman down the street who didn't open her home to David. He didn't put her on trial at all. Nathan never went and visited her. That tells me that GOD placed responsiblity and accountability on DAVID'S shoulders.

The resposibility and accountability for VP's actions rests on VP - not the girls who ended up in the motorcoach. It doesn't matter how they ended up there - HE was wrong.

Deciderator’s post # 466 is quite illuminating for a number of reasons.

Send me a link by pm and I'll glady read your story and catcup's, which I am only vaguely aware of.

(1) He has decided he will take a look at Excathreda and Catcup’s story. Currently the posts are not “badgering” him to do so. Rather, several posters have come forward and spoken descriptively about how the view the despicable behavior of vpw as a minister treating some of his flock so cruelly.

(2) It would seem he either (a) is willing to look at more details than have already been shared on this thread, or (b) did not see what has already been posted on this thread, or ( c) say them but did not read them, and does not know where to find them now.

I’m confused as how to interpret his reply.

Things are heating up again. Punches being thrown. And, imo, still because people aren’t reading what is written and understanding what the poster means. But I could be mistaken.

Dot Matrix’ posts 483 and 484 are jewels:

The devil was brilliant. What a way to take people out! Allow them the deliverance of the Word of God, get them excited, then switch the product. . . . If anyone really kicks it in with Discerning, they might see that VPW bringing the PFAL class to us was the greatest bait and switch scam I have ever seen. Steal a great class, call it your own. The word of God in that class DID help me. Then, have VPW show his doctrine of devils to a grateful following.

As many have stated, it was God that attracted us. For some of those who continued to get more and more involved with the organization, their focus and allegiance was slowly but surely transferred from God to the organization, and there was no escaping the effects of both the sound and the unsound doctrines at play. Thus, good results and bad results were experienced by them in varying degrees. The good results caused gain with no adverse consequences. The bad results came with adverse consequences that ran the gamut from slight to extreme. Thus necessary healing will cross the same gamut, slight to extreme. Slight can take very little time, extreme can take a lifetime.

There is a linear correlation between degree of severity of an offense and the degree of severity of the damage inflicted. However, the relationship between time required to inflict damage and time required to recover from such damage is not linear. I know of no objective unit of measurement that can gauge this phenomena. Therefore, it is impossible to say if x happened it will take this long, i.e., a specific unit of time, for the person to heal. And thus the assumption that “Since I have healed from the wounds inflicted due to my association with twi, so x should have been able to do so, also.” is invalid. No valid comparisons can be made. Each case is individual with unique parameters, this reality should be recognized and accepted as such. And to put this understanding into practice requires empathy and practicing compassion, imo.

Post #485 is a beaut! And puts this into more perspective.

And Mr. Lingo

Had you awakened in the motor coach without any pants on, a sore bum, telltale seamen on said sore bum after having a "drink" with VPW -

I dare say, this forum would be about the day VP was beaten to death by Johnny Lingo

There would be no spin off cults or accolades.

Pond makes some valid points in her post #490

some want the others to "move on" and not be a victim.

yet here they are in the same web site , living in the same "past" but with different colored horse. still just as serious about getting their own message said.

it is the same camp folks, but different focus of what is important to you.

johnny i know pfal is important to you and your serious, just as those who speak of the sex stuff feel it is important.. same things different plots.

but consider it is an EX way site.

and the victim thing isn’t wrong johnny it isn’t wrong to admit your hurt. it doesn’t mean life is damaged beyond any reasonable happiness. you learned in the way any sort of hurt or sickness or depression or wrong was from the devil.

could be . but the people who had the experience in their life were are not the devil. they are God beloved.

People continue to misunderstand WhiteDove. In post# 495 he sets one record straight, if one chooses to believe what he says, and I do,

You are wrong abut VPW being a role model for me or why I think the way I do.

If you listen to his posts you will hear “I do not deny the accusations leveled against VPW. I have reason to believe they did in fact happen. But, my belief that they happened does not make them a statement of truth. Truth concerning such accusations in the USA can only be proven in a court of law in the presence of a judge and jury.”

And, “I have reason to believe they did in fact happen. However, with only being able to learn one side of the story, I cannot know if each and every detail occurred according to the poster’s pov. With every accusation made in life, there is at least Side 1 and Side 2, and what actually happened lies somewhere between the two. It may be very close to Side 1 or to Side 2, or it may be in the middle, or anywhere else in between.”

And, “It usually takes two to tango. In many instances, both bear some responsibility for what happened, however slight it may be. But because someone bears some responsibility, it does not mean the action taken was correct or deserving. For example, if you walk down Main Street at 3 a.m. and get mugged, it does not mean the mugger had a right to do so, nor that you were asking to be mugged. It does mean you put yourself in a potentially dangerous situation and reaped that potential danger.”

So where does that leave him personally? He sums it up well in his post #614. (I added some of the punctuation and capitalization for clarity, hope it does not skew his intended meaning. I also added the bold.)

Really though George I think you are right. It will lay in the unknown category: can't prove, can't disprove, not enough facts to reach a conclusion. That does not make anyone a liar, just inconclusive evidence.

Oldiesman, some of your posts make me think you must live in a deafening world of silence, and you will do anything to break that silence. Therefore, you type posts just to hear the sound emitted from hitting the keys. Any logic or purpose in many of your posts is lost on me.

The golf talk starts. I really don’t feel they were trying to minimize Excathredra, just uncomfortable with how to respond. So they tried to bring in some levity. Rascal states it well in #498

you seem to have imparted your own lack of understanding for the necessity of these topics and compassion regarding the people sharing them.

But those who are uncomfortable need compassion also, in teaching them how to respond in these type situations. I posted some ideas near the end of my post #1081 in the paragraph beginning “All you posters out there”

Edited August 25, 2007 by Suda

[Suda]

Page7 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Section 4 of 5 of this post)

WhiteDove, re your post #899

Suda you are doing such a great job of reviewing the thread I wonder if you might do the Threadkiller thread when you are done here it's only 63 pages but since it is locked now at least you wont have any pages added.

I’m unfamiliar with the thread. Not sure if this comment is in earnest or jest. Have I stepped on your toes by something I have said? To everyone, if I have mis-characterized you, please do correct me. My posts are my observations and likely have errors in my understanding. I welcome feedback and constructive criticism.

Oakspear’s posts always challenge my thinking - guess that’s why I like them so much. In Post # 1,001

QUOTE (Suda) Nor had I heard Psalms 116:15 explained that “precious” meant “costly”.

Does it?

That is my current belief, Oak. I welcome further information you have on the subject. If you or anyone else has a different perspective, I’d enjoy reading it. What do you think it means, Oak?

As stated in my post #1,162 on page 59, Tom Strange’s post # 573 hit a paradigm for me I needed to work through.

I DID NOT WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE OR EVEN CONSIDER THAT SOMETHING I HAD GIVEN MY LIFE TO FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS COULD BE SO WRONG... BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN THAT I WAS WRONG FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS, THAT WOULD MEAN (in my mind) THAT I'D HAVE TO ADMIT THAT 'I WAS DUPED'...

And I certainly didn't want to admit that... not me.

Stated below are some “quotable quotes” that may help those new to GSC to unravel the incongruence between (1) the public and private personas of vpw, (2) the truths taught in PFAL and the errors in doctrine due to misuse of scripture, and (3) where and when God prevailed in twi and where and when the adversary did so. I don't necessarily agree with all of them, but all caused me to think carefully.

Why were people “led” to twi?

Larry N. Moore #1101, 1106, and 1112

It makes no difference to me whether they have a differing opinion/belief or not because I believe God will lead each of us where we need to be when we need to be there.

Abi, if this is true then couldn't you say that God led people to TWI because that's where they needed to be at the time?

I've seen that since my early years of involvement. I remember people saying something along the line of: "You can't separate the ministry from the Word." Even though I didn't say so in response I never agreed with that sentiment because it was contrary to what the Word said >

Well, then if God led even some people to TWI wouldn't that make it an avenue God uses to lead them to Himself? And if so then who am I to tell people that they shouldn't go there?

Doojable #1118 (I added italics)

I believe that God used TWI as a tool for many of us to get closer to Him. BUT - even though many, many of us wanted to have a closer relationship with Him, and we talked about "all nine, all the time," when the time came to actually listen to that still small voice and get out, we stayed. WHY? The answers are varied. Some never bothered to ask if they should leave because it was "their ministry." Others kept shooing away that Godly admonishment and told themselves to "just renew their minds." I can go on and on - but you get the picture.

My opinion is that if PFAL had been treated like a class instead of the basis for a ministry, things would have gone a lot better for many of us.

Misuse of scripture:

Groucho Marx#968

...the idea that the bible was wrongly taught in twi is a reoccuring theme here at the GreaseSpot...

Oakspear #1072

In my opinion it was nothing of the sort, but a motley collection of material, some plagiarized, some original, and some reworked from other sources. His conclusions betrayed, not a devotion to biblical "accuracy", but often a woeful lack of understanding of what his sources were saying, a virtual absence of logic and common sense, and a devotion rather to push his own agenda, his own views, no matter what the bible actually said.

Tbone #977 and 1131

That reminds me….I think a big thing lacking in PFAL was the fear of God and sin-consciousness. vpw interpreted what Jesus Christ did for us as reason to believe what we did in the flesh was of little or no consequence. We heard in his class that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof and correction. He had a tendency to make study of the Bible an intellectual pursuit rather than a moral guide. So vpw's application of that was to reprove and correct followers that didn't follow his doctrine…to his liking. There was definitely a fear of vpw when I was in TWI. It didn't matter if you were a goody-two-shoes or an unscrupulous son-of-a-b1tch – just don't buck PFAL stuff – or there will be hell to pay!

In my opinion, PFAL is a sloppy patchwork of systematic theology, philosophies of questionable pedigree and Gnostic-like commentary that is solely based on one deceitful, lewd, deluded, egocentric man…When it comes to Bible study - the PFAL grad is not into "comparison shopping", checking out other viewpoints…other commentaries, doing their own research – or even checking out a "consumer report" [like this thread – listen to all the satisfied customers of PFAL

(Sorry, don't know who to give credit for this one)

Deciderator......when you mentioned "God's Word with pfal as if they are Siamese twins or something" you noting what many here have stated as "bait and switch".....or in Galatians 3 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you that ye should not obey the truth..."

In many cases, fooling someone or bewitching someone happens OVER A PERIOD OF TIME. In my opinion, few people allow complete strangers to fool them, scam them, bewitch them. It's someone in whom we allow to get in close with us and in the process of living life........the deception takes place.

In hindsight, TO ME (notice I'm not trying to infer this on others).....pfal was like that. I allowed the simple verses and the knowledge to sway me towards wierwille's ministry. I was young and naive and rebellious and wierwille, seemingly, had answers to my spiritual questions. I jumped on-board for a wild and fast ride. BUT AROUND 1995......I saw how pfal's absent-Christ doctrine ALSO shifted emphasis away from the Lordship of Jesus Christ in my life.

So.....no, I would NOT call God's Word and pfal as "Siamese twins." In fact, this thread and other "pfal threads" illustrate the MAJOR DIVERGING PATHS that each one takes.

Here's another cliche by wierwille..........."The Word is the ministry and the ministry is The Word”

Edited August 25, 2007 by Suda

[Bumpy]

Suda Darling, I don’t drink enough tea in the morning to get through 10% of your critiques of other people!

I mean, do you do this for a living, analyzing the GS forum and people’s personalities, grammar, content, and how you interpret it all?

Yikes, write the book but change the style a little. It’s going to kill the readers at the book signing party! <_<

[Suda]

Page7 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Section 5 of 5 of this post)

Oakspear #1156

True, Wierwille said that we shouldn't follow men, and that we shouldn't take his or anyone else's word for it, but when you come down to it, isn't that what he expected us to do?

Result of the misused scriptures:

Doojable #1034 and #1058

TWI (the lies, hypocrisy, and degrading of God's people) was the shifting sand on which the buildings (the love of God and Jesus, the attitude of service and valuing each person as a child of God) of these servants stood. When the sand shifted the foundation strained to hold it together, until it all crumbled. >

Herein lies the problem. For too many people, the "firm Rock of Jesus Christ" WAS their loyalty to an organization. For others still - what they believed was a firm Rock was in fact a huge pile of pebbles glued together by a few Foundational principals and a series of classes.

In my opinion, all the foundation that was laid by TWI had to be re-built, in each heart and mind.

It was built on study and not worship.

It was built on looking to the ministers instead of the Christ.

It was built on the MOG and not God Himself.

As many folks turned to worship, prayer, Christ, and God - they found the foundation they had sought. Many folks found themselves going back to the beginning of their journey - that being to seek God and His will.

If we had known, we would have left. Who’s to blame for the abuse?

Groucho #1030

Very few people were aware that Wierwille and his henchmen were drugging young girls and sexually molesting them, or that he stole the work of other people and put his name on it...had I known these things, I would have left immediately...that's why I said in an earlier post that he lied in God's name. Yes, I am guilty of putting my trust in this man...and in return for that trust, I was rewarded by deceit and evil. So what is it?...We once again blame the victims of twi for their own abuse?...this seems to be a reoccuring theme here. That young girl had freedom of will when she entered the motorcoach?...I suppose that if a doctor told you that you had a tumor and he needed $50,000 to remove it to save your life and if you found out he was lying to get your money...that would be YOUR fault because you have freedom of will?...sorry, I don't buy it.

Impact upon those who were abused hearing about goodness of vpw:

But Now I See #948

Ok, how bout this example, if someone kidnaped your sister and sexually abused her, would you be so ready to listen to how he was such an upstanding citizen? Wouldn't the upstanding part be obliterated by the kidnaping and abuse part?

Were not we captivated by such a one, and were not some of our sisters abused?

Result of the good:

jeaniam #1051

I would like to think that the majority of the leaders had that mindset, and that the ones who were in it for personal gain were in the minority.

Yes, the organization may have crumbled, but the men and women whose stand was based on the firm rock of Jesus Christ, not loyalty to an organization have not crumbled, but still stand strong on the Word (Bible), nor has the foundation beneath their feet shifted at all.

Skyrider #1154

For me, I believe that the Scriptures are God's Word and Divine Guidance.....written by holy men who were moved by holy spirit within them. And yes, when the Scriptures are received and understood in the manner for which God intended.....then and there I have truth, a spiritual perspective of life and godliness. . . .

When simple verses were read in pfal......my heart could not contain its joy.

When certain sections were expounded in their context.......my eyes of understanding were enlightened.

As a teenager, I thought that I'd reached the summit of spiritual knowledge....and had keys to open doors.

A deep, burning quest to walk like Jesus Christ keep me moving and teaching and ministering to others in the valley of human suffering and need. Small portions and morsels of truth are more than many others have who are hungering and thirsting. And, I thank the Lord for opening doors before me to give and minister to so many.... many of whom never took pfal but were uplifted and encouraged by the Scriptures.

Deciderator #1141

People come and go, but the Word of God liveth and abideth forever!

A bottom line for me is that God was able to reach many through vpw/twi/pfal. Most of those reached wised up and left twi, complete with the truths they had learned from scripture and the hurt they endured due to misuse of scripture. Many of us are now together again at GSC where we clarify "old" truths and share new truths, and where we help each other heal from the wounds inflicted during twi. And what keeps us coming back is the sweet fellowship among grand people who have great love in their hearts and a desire to help others.

Suda (glad to have finally posted the last of her notes, and sure you are glad, too!)

Edited August 25, 2007 by Suda

[Suda]

Bumpy,

Suda Darling, I don’t drink enough tea in the morning to get through 10% of your critiques of other people!

I mean, do you do this for a living, analyzing the GS forum and people’s personalities, grammar, content, and how you interpret it all?

Yikes, write the book but change the style a little. It’s going to kill the readers at the book signing party! <_<

I understand what you're saying. This is the first and hopefully the last "long winded tangent" here at GSC for me! This particular thread just brought up lots of things I needed and wanted to delve into for some needed paradigm shifts for me personally.

Once I started posting the notes, I received requests from others to continue to do so. So I have posted the notes for them. I realize most (if not all, by this time) people will skip them entirely, and that is okay by me.

Know the style is boring - just notes - not manuscript style. Sorry, but didn't have the inclination to spend even more time making it "pretty" and "user friendly". I do have a life, hee hee! Actually, all the notes were taken about 3 weeks ago and I have just been posting them as time has permitted.

Glad it's all over now!

Suda

[johniam]

quote: I do not recall CF&S being or having any sort of discussion format at all. I do recall a branch coordinator discussing his & wife's choices on birth control as some addition to the class materials, but it was not a group discussion or even a Q&A format..

I don't recall any TWI class that had open discussions as an actual part of the class. They were all lecture type classes.

Yeah, what waysider said. In CFS they put you in small groups and encouraged people to just talk about stuff hopefully without giving too much info. Even in foundational pfal at the last session they'd ask new students to share how the class blessed them.

[Larry N Moore]

Bumpy,

I understand what you're saying. This is the first and hopefully the last "long winded tangent" here at GSC for me! This particular thread just brought up lots of things I needed and wanted to delve into for some needed paradigm shifts for me personally.

Once I started posting the notes, I received requests from others to continue to do so. So I have posted the notes for them. I realize most (if not all, by this time) people will skip them entirely, and that is okay by me.

Know the style is boring - just notes - not manuscript style. Sorry, but didn't have the inclination to spend even more time making it "pretty" and "user friendly". I do have a life, hee hee! Actually, all the notes were taken about 3 weeks ago and I have just been posting them as time has permitted.

Glad it's all over now!

Suda

I must say, Suda, it's been an interesting read. Although I found some of your comments contradictory (maybe due to a misunderstanding on my part) I commend you for your efforts. As a observation -- I thought your critique and/or analysis, of what has transpired in this thread, should have been posted in a companion thread. At times I thought it interrupted the "flow" of the discussions. But, what the hey -- if someone has been blessed by it then -- I'm making a trivial point.

WhiteDove, I’d like to give you a point of constructive criticism if I may. Your posts would be much easier to read and understand if you used punctuation and capitalization in all of them. I find I have to re-read them several times to find “the natural pauses” where a “.” or a “?” or a “,” should be inserted. I think others would have an easier time understanding the excellent points you make in your posts if you helped them by using punctuation.

Let me offer you a bit of constructive criticism. Never make it a point to tell someone else how they should compose their posts. At least not publicly. If someone reading such posts don't understand what the author meant to say -- they can always ask for clarification. I'm sure you're aware of the old adage -- when you point a finger, you have three pointing back at yourself. :)

[anotherDan]

Suda Darling, I don’t drink enough tea in the morning to get through 10% of your critiques of other people! rolleyes.gif

I mean, do you do this for a living, analyzing the GS forum and people’s personalities, grammar, content, and how you interpret it all?

Yikes, write the book but change the style a little. It’s going to kill the readers at the book signing party! dry.gif

Bump, I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but you can just skip them if you don't like them. I've become pretty good at skipping. I really really like Suda's analysis. I don't always agree with her analysis, but I commend her for what she's doing. It's free to post, and I haven't heard Paw saying it's taking up too much bandwidth or anything.

Did you ever see Eyes and Larry get on a roll? That can be fun, too. Or you can just skip it.

Watch out, Lar! She's lurking!

Edited August 25, 2007 by anotherDan

[doojable]

Did you ever see Eyes and Larry get on a roll? That can be fun, too. Or you can just skip it.

Watch out, Lar! She's lurking!

I'm fairly certain that if there was a roll in the vicinity, Eyes would be calling for extra gravy and Larry would be lunch.

[Larry N Moore]

Watch out, Lar! She's lurking!

Not to worry Dan. Have I ever shown you my shark suit?

Besides -- Underneath that shark exterior lurks a beautiful woman. :)

[WhiteDove]

WhiteDove, re your post #899

QUOTE

Suda you are doing such a great job of reviewing the thread I wonder if you might do the Thread killer thread when you are done here it's only 63 pages but since it is locked now at least you wont have any pages added.

I’m unfamiliar with the thread. Not sure if this comment is in earnest or jest. Have I stepped on your toes by something I have said? To everyone, if I have mis-characterized you, please do correct me. My posts are my observations and likely have errors in my understanding. I welcome feedback and constructive criticism

Not at all Suda the comment was in earnest, I have enjoyed your observations. The second part of the comment was in jest

"I wonder if you might do the Threadkiller thread when you are done here it's only 63 pages but since it is locked now at least you wont have any pages added. "

Since this thread had no intentions of slowing down and it was apparent the work you were putting into your observations I was thinking man this is going to be a lot of work here, Me I would have picked a shorter thread to analyze if I were to do such a thing. It was a poor comparison to another long thread, the point was lost but, what I meant to convey was you are going to be doing this for some time I hope you enjoy it because it may turn out to be several pages.

By the way the thread killer thread is pinned in the memorial section although originally in the open section it was placed there in memory of my sister dove Wyteduv or Dovey as she was known. Dovey loved that thread, even when she was ill and bedridden it gave her a place to go and laugh, when she passed away I asked Paw and he kindly locked the thread in her memory giving her the last post. She would have liked that .... Today it would be in the silly section.

You can find it

Here

[Eyesopen]

I'm fairly certain that if there was a roll in the vicinity, Eyes would be calling for extra gravy and Larry would be lunch.

Gravy? Did someone mention gravy?

Larry lunchmeat...Larry ala croissant....

Hmmm....

Not today, I'm still rendering the moose into one cup!

[Eyesopen]

Not to worry Dan. Have I ever shown you my shark suit?

Besides -- Underneath that shark exterior lurks a beautiful woman. :)

Is your suit made of Kevlar with trauma plates?

I did just leave the dentists office...nice file job after the cleaning.

Oh that's not me Larry that's the lunch that got away...well I let her go, she was tough. :blink:

[bulwinkl]

Not today, I'm still rendering the moose into one cup!

Get them fangs outta me lady

[Eyesopen]

Get them fangs outta me lady

Mmmmmmm....moose mousse.... :D

[Oakspear]

Page7 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Section 4 of 5 of this post)

That is my current belief, Oak. I welcome further information you have on the subject. If you or anyone else has a different perspective, I’d enjoy reading it. What do you think it means, Oak?

I don't know what it means, and I haven't investigated it lately. My point is that I don't believe that you did either and that a lot of what Wierwille taught us stuck in our brains simply because it sounded good or was comforting in some manner, not because he could back it up with any kind of evidence.

Yes, it makes sense it light of the belief that God doesn't kill people, but does the word translated "precious" actual mean "costly"?

Edited August 25, 2007 by Oakspear

[anotherDan]

a bit of a new spin on the topic, but

One of the Big Things I did NOT learn in PFAL was to really "look unto Jesus" as it says in Hebrews. To be fair, one memorable coffeehouse teaching at an early ROA, I heard Ger@ld Wr3n do quite a good job of it, but the preaching of the cross was not a popular theme, and it should be.

who endured the cross, despising the shame....

... became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross...

I neither want to defend nor diss the class. I only want to say that in my own personal journey, my appreciation for the Lord Jesus and his teaching has been revolutionary. The Gospels were written AFTER the Pauline corpus, and one commentator cleverly called them something like "passion narratives with extended introductions." The teachings of Christ that are contained in the Gospels are treasures beyond compare. How I now take to heart, as if he were speaking directly to me, "you call me Lord... why do you not do the things that I say?"

[J0nny Ling0]

Good job Suda, thanks...

[Bumpy]

Yes, it makes sense it light of the belief that God doesn't kill people, but does the word translated "precious" actual mean "costly"?

Maybe it depends on how much you paid for "the class"??

[doojable]

I don't know what it means, and I haven't investigated it lately. My point is that I don't believe that you did either and that a lot of what Wierwille taught us stuck in our brains simply because it sounded good or was comforting in some manner, not because he could back it up with any kind of evidence.

Yes, it makes sense it light of the belief that God doesn't kill people, but does the word translated "precious" actual mean "costly"?

Oak - I'd ask a Hebrew scholar. Maybe Abi has some sources...

Other than that - who knows...?

[socks]

Costly - different pews, different views Oaks:

One rendering similar to PFAL but defines it differently depending on which side of the register you're looking at costly

And some more different strokes on costly

Edited August 26, 2007 by socks

[Deciderator]

Page7 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Section 1 of 5 of this post)

(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread; Page 2 post #891 on page 45; Page 3 post #893 on page 45; Page 4 post #941, Page 48; Page 5 posted in 5 Sections, posts 1216-1217, and 1219-1220 on page 61, and 1221 page 62; Page 6 post 1081 on page 6)

As discussed in “my Page 6", page 11 started with Jonny Lingo’s response to Excathedra about m’s story.

.In Rascal’s post #203 she states regarding Deciderator

The discussion then went from that to cid accusing me of laying untrue charges at the feet of these men...ie calling me a liar because he didn`t want to believe it.(I suppose I am suppose to ignore THAT accusation as well)

I think she misunderstood what he was saying. As discussed previously, to some people there is a huge difference between stating something is true versus stating you believe it to be true or hold it to be true. And from a legal perspective, they are correct. And to say it is not true from a legal pov is not to say it is false, but that is unproven in legal terminology. That leaves room for anyone to come to their own belief concerning it, and holding their belief to be true.

Yep yep yepyepyep.

Definitely misunderstood.

This led rascal to once again claim I said something I did not.

She made other false statements in the post about what I said.

This appears to be a habitual thing with rascal.

[Bumpy]

I’m “cruising” a bit here after dinner...but if “every word that proceedeth from thy mouth shall be judged”...please help me here with chap/verse...I get a bit worried big time! I’m somehow trying to workout my own “salvation” day to day. But I always had this image of a cd recorder hovering over me, recording my every word. I’ve got a feeling, I’m in big trouble...when the “Book of Life” is opened!

But I just keep trying! <_<