I wouldn't have shown that to the 13 year old, and don't believe Dr. Wierwille would have either. The parents should share some blame for that one too.
I think these things were shown for purposes of outreach. We know a major emphasis in twi was outreach. May sound strange but, not being shocked by what is going on in the world may help when one comes across one of these people and witnesses to them. Instead of acting like Mr. or Mrs. goooodie two shoes but trying to relate and understand where they're at maybe would help motivate them to get out of what they are in.
Yes, I can see how such videos would be useful for outreach, in retrospect. How many men here have said they initially got involved with TWI because they were attracked to some cute girl? :blink:
How many doors did you knock on, only to find the person inside praising you for helping them be healed of their desire to have sex with animals? :blink:
Oh, and I'm certain the "homo purges"of the 90's that LCM instituted healed many a "deviant" :blink:
Oldies, sometimes I think you are very niave. :)
Larry, yes the world is most certainly changing. Ever watch the cartoon network??? Lordy!!!
I believe that was the context in which it was presented and I tried to understand it. I could be wrong. But I think it's better to think that way then think VP was some sort of a porn pusher.
I believe that was the context in which it was presented and I tried to understand it. I could be wrong. But I think it's better to think that way then think VP was some sort of a porn pusher.
Okay, I can buy that Oldies. I can understand the concept of wanting to see the good in people, really. I generally tend toward that view too - despite the fact that the result has been to be "taken in" a time or two in the process.
I wonder though, can you offer that same benefit of the doubt to others here? Can you look at someone, like say Rascal, and understand that she speaks out because she loves people and genuinely wants to help them? That from her POV, VPW hurt people and she wants to protect other people from experiencing similar hurt?
I am not saying you have to AGREE with her POV that VPW hurt people, even. I am just wondering if you can see her heart and intent as something good, even though you disagree with her opinion?
In cf&s I didn't take it as the vicmeister being a porn pusher, exactly..
I kinda thought it odd.. but here, we had a middle aged or older man, standing in da gap.. rescuing the sexually oppressed youth from the bondage engendered by their parents, and showing them exactly "how it's supposed to be done"..
I thought it was pretty lame at the time.
It was hardly "exciting" watching people go at it with the royal vicmeister giving a blow by blow account like some kind of sports announcer..
Okay, I can buy that Oldies. I can understand the concept of wanting to see the good in people, really. I generally tend toward that view too - despite the fact that the result has been to be "taken in" a time or two in the process.
I wonder though, can you offer that same benefit of the doubt to others here? Can you look at someone, like say Rascal, and understand that she speaks out because she loves people and genuinely wants to help them? That from her POV, VPW hurt people and she wants to protect other people from experiencing similar hurt?
I am not saying you have to AGREE with her POV that VPW hurt people, even. I am just wondering if you can see her heart and intent as something good, even though you disagree with her opinion?
Just curious.
Mixed emotions. I think Rascal has love and mercy but I can't see continued hatred of Victor Paul Wierwille as being a good thing, even though folks did get hurt. Hate is a real strong blinding emotion and as you know, can come from betrayal. I think Rascal feels betrayed and devastated by the sins of VP, and manifests continued hate through that emotion. I believe the feelings are real and genuine. However, where does it say that it is a godly Christian thing to engage in continued hatred caused by betrayal?
You know, I believe it can even be an obsession, this continued hate of VP. It's like a dead cockroach on the linoleum. For crying out loud, the cockroach is dead and doesn't have to bother you anymore. But over and over every day, day in and day out, you smash the cockroach. You look at it, morning, noon, and night, and offer smashes every chance you get. You keep on smashing and pulverizing, smashing it into the linoleum. Unrelentingly. Crushed and smashed, morning, noon and night, every day, on and on. Continued hatred of VP is like that, like smashing a dead cockroach in linoleum.
Mixed emotions. I think Rascal has love and mercy but I can't see continued hatred of Victor Paul Wierwille as being a good thing, even though folks did get hurt. Hate is a real strong blinding emotion and as you know, can come from betrayal. I think Rascal feels betrayed and devastated by the sins of VP, and manifests continued hate through that emotion. I believe the feelings are real and genuine. However, where does it say that it is a godly Christian thing to engage in continued hatred caused by betrayal?
Does Rascal say she hates him or is that merely your interpretation of what she has said?
You know, I believe it can even be an obsession, this continued hate of VP. It's like a dead cockroach on the linoleum. For crying out loud, the cockroach is dead and doesn't have to bother you anymore. But over and over every day, day in and day out, you smash the cockroach. You look at it, morning, noon, and night, and offer smashes every chance you get. You keep on smashing and pulverizing, smashing it into the linoleum. Unrelentingly. Crushed and smashed, morning, noon and night, every day, on and on. Continued hatred of VP is like that, like smashing a dead cockroach in linoleum.
The roach may be dead, but there is concern his legacy lives on. LCM's actions were really not much different than his predessessors, could it be he was taught such behavior was okay? Could VPW have taught others the same error? Could LCM have taught others the same error?
I think that is why you still see the outcry. Not because anyone thinks there is a need to stop a deadman from hurting other women, but because people want to stop those who likewise think such behavior is acceptable from hurting other women.
And too, I am sure there is a degree of venting that comes from the pain of one's experiences. I think Dooj said it well in one of her posts on a thread somewhere - it took her 10 years to get over her mother's death?? Something like that. Venting is a part of the healing process sometimes. Expressing one's pain can be healthy. Sure it can go too far and become unhealthy as well. But I have met Rascal face to face and am very aware that what you see of her here on the cafe is one dimensional. You don't see the entire woman.
Just like I am certain what I see of you here is somewhat one dimensional and I don't see the whole man. That is why I try to offer you the benefit of the doubt, that is why I try to hold my tongue when you say something that angers me - to wait until I can respond from a kinder place.
A supposed "minister" shows - unannounced - hardcore porn to a mixed audience of kids and adults and those that think that that action was wrong have to explain why they feel that way?
If I had you and your kids over to my house for an evening of Bible talk and then decided it was time to show you the home movie of my "witnessing" trip to a Tijuana donkey show, how many of yas would be running to my defense now?
Of course I'm not The Great and Wonderful MOG, I guess that makes all the difference...
Oldies, I think it depends on the depth of pain inflicted.
I don't see hate here. I think most people talk of the vicster and cronies as they see them, or as they experienced them.
I think he was a flim-flam artist, and built his organization not much unlike how Capone built his..
But..
What if they required castration, to be proper and free to do the "will of gawwd"?
Maybe that is the closest male version to what they did to some women..
so you go ahead, do the "procedure".. it's just a couple of cells ya know.. an "appendage"..
Jesus said, "if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out.." maybe we could apply that to the "modern" times.. if your.. offends you.. well, it's a small thing compared with loss of vision.
So let's just yank it out, it can't breath on it's own for pity's sake..
and then you find out you've been flim flammed.. fooled.. deceived.. by a madman..
how would YOU feel?
You might say, "well, that's entirely different.."
Is it? See.. what these women were robbed of, was MOTHERHOOD. What if someone robbed you of your FATHERHOOD, using the name of God to do so?
The roach may be dead, but there is concern his legacy lives on.
I think VP's legacy is the continued teaching and preaching of the accuracy of the Word of God. I believe the important thing is that the Word continues to be taught and believed... and I think that is what he would have wanted most. I see nothing wrong with that and much right about it.
And, I think that's the only profitable thing that's left. Hatred is destructive and doesn't help.
I think VP's legacy is the continued teaching and preaching of the accuracy of the Word of God. I believe the important thing is that the Word continues to be taught and believed... and I think that is what he would have wanted most. I see nothing wrong with that and much right about it.
Theoretically, philosophically even, you may be correct. But what about the legacy of abuse that also lives on via LCM and those members of the BOD who KNEW and COVERED such things, and God only knows who else? THAT legacy needs to be stopped, no?
Did you ever take LCM's Believer's Family Class, the legacy of CFS?
Oh I know, one can argue VPW is not responsible for the actions of LCM and in some sense that is a valid argument. But one can also argue VPW IS responsible if he taught LCM such erronious and incredibly hurtful practices are acdeptable and that argument is also valid.
Actually, Odies, what is more destructive than hatred is wrong, devisive, controling, and hurtful doctrine being taught in the guise of "the accuracy of the Word of God."
Speaking out against something you think is that destructive, while you may hate it, is the right thing to do.
Theoretically, philosophically even, you may be correct. But what about the legacy of abuse that also lives on via LCM and those members of the BOD who KNEW and COVERED such things, and God only knows who else? THAT legacy needs to be stopped, no?
I honestly don't see much profit in dwelling on your characterization of a "legacy of abuse that also lives on". I don't know that it is fair to say that the current state of affairs at twi is abusive, do you? Much like a Catholic parishoner may not find profit in dwelling on pedophile priests, life goes on. The church goes on.
If something at present is destructive and abusive, the Word says to reprove and rebuke, and make correction. If there is current abuse taking place in twi or the offshoots then it is incumbent to root it out and make correction. Do you know of any adultries / rapes currently taking place in twi or the offshoots? I don't know of any.
I think there is some current twi doctrine that is worth questioning; but I believe that can be accomplished in love and respect, not hatred and disrespect.
The world is a much more savvy place today than it was 30-35 years ago, especially regarding matters like the one we are discussing.
If you produced this class(CF&S) today and presented it to the same types of audiences that viewed it back then, you could possibly be charged with *pandering obsenity* and possibly even *contributing to the delinquency of a minor*.
It has been stated by one poster that it is his opinion that VPW would not have presented this sort of thing with minors present.
And yet, there is testimony that he, in fact, did present similar material to at least one 14 year old. And, this was a "live and in person" event, not a filmed class session.
I was a class instructor for this particular class in the 1970s.
There was no disclaimer regarding the content. I think I would remember that detail.
The first time I ran it, there was a 14 year old girl signed up to take it.
I was apprehensive so I consulted with the leadership above me.
They gave me a "canned" response to the effect that "What better place to learn these things than in the safety of the household?" Pretty close to the exact words.
I did have one couple walk out one time. They were senior citizens and this stuff was off the charts of what they considered acceptable. They came back for the next session after a long meeting with their twig leader. I was not present and don't know what was discussed in their meeting.
You know, The Holocaust has been over for more than 60 years.
As long as people continue to deny that it happened, there will be those who speak up and proclaim its reality. Why? Well, maybe in doing so, they can help to prevent a recurrence.
I think VP's legacy is the continued teaching and preaching of the accuracy of the Word of God.
If only it were accurate...
I believe the important thing is that the Word continues to be taught and believed...
This would have happened with or without VPW. (Read above.)
and I think that is what he would have wanted most.
Well, his wants are irrelevant. We can only speculate as to what he wanted. I think he would have wanted to still be alive and in control of his empire.
I see nothing wrong with that and much right about it.
No surprise there.
And, I think that's the only profitable thing that's left. Hatred is destructive and doesn't help.
The Word of God lives and abides forever VPW is a blip on the screen. It doesn't take hatred to put things in their proper perspective.
So.. by this logic I should rent XXX movies and show them to my girls...
Sorry, I'm not buying that krap. Take some of the most vile stuff and show it to a bunch of young adults ( I include teens and those in their early twenties here...) so that you can "protect" them from the world - Seems like he became "the world"...
That may have been the public explanation, and the story you feel most comfortable with believing. Did he want us to adopt bestiality? Probably not. That doesn't mean that his motives were purely for teaching purposes - come on,
I may have been born at night, but it wasn't LAST night. <_<
Yes I do believe his motives were purely for teaching purposes. He didn't promote beastiality.
Larry, I don't remember photos but do remember videos. :)
Nobody said the sole-or even most likely purpose- for a 50-year-old to show teens and early 20s
videos of young women having sex with animals was specifically to PROMOTE BESTIALITY.
However,
pretending the only choices are
"he was trying to get people into bestiality"
and
"he had some other purpose, which was noble"
makes it a lot easier to pretend that there WERE sane reasons to show bestiality pornographic videos
to young people.
Let me get this straight,
A supposed "minister" shows - unannounced - hardcore porn to a mixed audience of kids and adults and those that think that that action was wrong have to explain why they feel that way?
If I had you and your kids over to my house for an evening of Bible talk and then decided it was time to show you the home movie of my "witnessing" trip to a Tijuana donkey show, how many of yas would be running to my defense now?
Of course I'm not The Great and Wonderful MOG, I guess that makes all the difference...
I honestly don't see much profit in dwelling on your characterization of a "legacy of abuse that also lives on". I don't know that it is fair to say that the current state of affairs at twi is abusive, do you? Much like a Catholic parishoner may not find profit in dwelling on pedophile priests, life goes on. The church goes on.
If something at present is destructive and abusive, the Word says to reprove and rebuke, and make correction. If there is current abuse taking place in twi or the offshoots then it is incumbent to root it out and make correction. Do you know of any adultries / rapes currently taking place in twi or the offshoots? I don't know of any.
I think there is some current twi doctrine that is worth questioning; but I believe that can be accomplished in love and respect, not hatred and disrespect.
I really have little direct knowledge of what the various offshoots do, I've never been involved in one. But it is my understanding that the woman who covered for LCM (who was picked by VPW and seems to have followed in his foot steps in all the wrong ways) is now president of TWI. To me, that is a huge red flag.
I was thinking about this as well, Oldies, how did VPW even come by such films?
I am not sure, by it is my guess videos involving beastiality would be illegal in the U.S. even to this day. I'm thinking it is even more likely they were illegal back then. It's not like he could have just stopped into your friendly video store, browsed the "back room" and picked one out, is it? Myabe I am the niave one here - Sheesh!
So then WHO did he have to know to get ahold of such a thing? And what about copyright issues? Even if it were legal, I am assuming he would have to have permission to use it in a class he is being paid to teach, no?
And given what we know about sexuality today, it all makes me a bit nauseous to be sure. Think about it, men in particular are by and large VISUALLY stimulated sexually. Women - to a lesser degree. So lets get a bunch of men and women together in a class and show them pornographic videos under the guise of Christianity? Under the guise of "a witnessing tool?" So they won't be shocked??
Again, I go back to my question - out of all the people who took that class and watched those videos, and then went witnessing - how many of them do you think actually drew on something they learned by watching pornographic videos to help them lead someone else to God?? What percentage of them came across even one human being who confessed to them they were "into" bestiality?
Abigail, if you're asking me these questions, then I would refer you to my previous answer about seeking the good in Wierwille, which you said you bought. I don't answer these speculative questions that can have no real answers and only seem to result in strife and debate.
Abigail, if you're asking me these questions, then I would refer you to my previous answer about seeking the good in Wierwille, which you said you bought. I don't answer these speculative questions that can have no real answers and only seem to result in strife and debate.
And I do buy it, Oldies. At the same time, I will add, that as with all things there is a balance to be found. I can look at the life of Jeffrey Dalmer and I may be able to find good things that he did at some point in time in his life. I may even be able to empathize with him for the horrid childhood he endured (if that were so, I really have no idea) but at the same time, I can recognize that his life took a wrong turn somewhere and he would be a danger to society if we simply let him loose on the people again.
I also recognize the analogy doesn't fit, in that VPW is dead.
In any case, I guess I don't really expect you to answer the questions Oldies. I think I was thinking out loud more than anything. Believe it or not, I do try to see the valid arguments on all sides of this issue. I never knew the man, he never directly hurt me personally. That doesn't mean I can simply turn a blind eye to the people I know were hurt by him. I can't just "invalidate" them by seeing only the good and ignoring the bad. Nor do I wish to see only the bad and ignore the good.
Jonny, I saw the beastiality clip at a CFS camp in 1973. Dr. Wierwille ran it in NY.
No big deal, although I do remember a couple of women walking out. And that's another thing, if folks thought it was sooooooooooo bad, they could have walked right out. Wierwille wouldn't have minded.
The purpose of this short video (and I mean SHORT) as explained by Wierwille was to get folks to see stuff they wouldn't normally see, so they wouldn't be shocked by what is going on in the world....
Welcome class, today’s de-sensitivity training is by our own illustrious sexual predator, New Knoxville’s foremost expert on moral depravity. His expertise spans a wide variety of skills as I’m sure you’ve heard of his How I Plagiarized for Glory and Profit story – it often goes by the subtitle A Few Big Things I Stole to Make PFAL.
That doesn't mean I can simply turn a blind eye to the people I know were hurt by him. I can't just "invalidate" them by seeing only the good and ignoring the bad. Nor do I wish to see only the bad and ignore the good.
I'm gonna' come right out and say it. I truly believe that VP's main motivation for showing THAT video at Rome City, to THAT audience (with teenaged girls in the room) was purely voyeuristic. In other words, I really believe that VPW got a kick out of seeing the various reactions in the room.
Say I'm thinking evil if you want. Say I'm judging him. I don't know have any other sane reason for his actions.
BTW - my reaction to the "Christian Family and Sex" class was that it was really about sex and very little about Christian Family. I wouldn't even put it in the category of sex education. I'm no prude and I wasn't a prude when I was 20. I just don't remember walking out of there feeling the class had been appropriately titled.
Maybe it should have been called, "VPW does New Knoxville." <_<
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Abigail
Yes, I can see how such videos would be useful for outreach, in retrospect. How many men here have said they initially got involved with TWI because they were attracked to some cute girl? :blink:
How many doors did you knock on, only to find the person inside praising you for helping them be healed of their desire to have sex with animals? :blink:
Oh, and I'm certain the "homo purges"of the 90's that LCM instituted healed many a "deviant" :blink:
Oldies, sometimes I think you are very niave. :)
Larry, yes the world is most certainly changing. Ever watch the cartoon network??? Lordy!!!
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oldiesman
I believe that was the context in which it was presented and I tried to understand it. I could be wrong. But I think it's better to think that way then think VP was some sort of a porn pusher.
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Abigail
Okay, I can buy that Oldies. I can understand the concept of wanting to see the good in people, really. I generally tend toward that view too - despite the fact that the result has been to be "taken in" a time or two in the process.
I wonder though, can you offer that same benefit of the doubt to others here? Can you look at someone, like say Rascal, and understand that she speaks out because she loves people and genuinely wants to help them? That from her POV, VPW hurt people and she wants to protect other people from experiencing similar hurt?
I am not saying you have to AGREE with her POV that VPW hurt people, even. I am just wondering if you can see her heart and intent as something good, even though you disagree with her opinion?
Just curious.
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Ham
In cf&s I didn't take it as the vicmeister being a porn pusher, exactly..
I kinda thought it odd.. but here, we had a middle aged or older man, standing in da gap.. rescuing the sexually oppressed youth from the bondage engendered by their parents, and showing them exactly "how it's supposed to be done"..
I thought it was pretty lame at the time.
It was hardly "exciting" watching people go at it with the royal vicmeister giving a blow by blow account like some kind of sports announcer..
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oldiesman
Mixed emotions. I think Rascal has love and mercy but I can't see continued hatred of Victor Paul Wierwille as being a good thing, even though folks did get hurt. Hate is a real strong blinding emotion and as you know, can come from betrayal. I think Rascal feels betrayed and devastated by the sins of VP, and manifests continued hate through that emotion. I believe the feelings are real and genuine. However, where does it say that it is a godly Christian thing to engage in continued hatred caused by betrayal?
You know, I believe it can even be an obsession, this continued hate of VP. It's like a dead cockroach on the linoleum. For crying out loud, the cockroach is dead and doesn't have to bother you anymore. But over and over every day, day in and day out, you smash the cockroach. You look at it, morning, noon, and night, and offer smashes every chance you get. You keep on smashing and pulverizing, smashing it into the linoleum. Unrelentingly. Crushed and smashed, morning, noon and night, every day, on and on. Continued hatred of VP is like that, like smashing a dead cockroach in linoleum.
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Raf
While others try to rehabilitate the cockroach's legacy.
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Abigail
The roach may be dead, but there is concern his legacy lives on. LCM's actions were really not much different than his predessessors, could it be he was taught such behavior was okay? Could VPW have taught others the same error? Could LCM have taught others the same error?
I think that is why you still see the outcry. Not because anyone thinks there is a need to stop a deadman from hurting other women, but because people want to stop those who likewise think such behavior is acceptable from hurting other women.
And too, I am sure there is a degree of venting that comes from the pain of one's experiences. I think Dooj said it well in one of her posts on a thread somewhere - it took her 10 years to get over her mother's death?? Something like that. Venting is a part of the healing process sometimes. Expressing one's pain can be healthy. Sure it can go too far and become unhealthy as well. But I have met Rascal face to face and am very aware that what you see of her here on the cafe is one dimensional. You don't see the entire woman.
Just like I am certain what I see of you here is somewhat one dimensional and I don't see the whole man. That is why I try to offer you the benefit of the doubt, that is why I try to hold my tongue when you say something that angers me - to wait until I can respond from a kinder place.
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George Aar
Let me get this straight,
A supposed "minister" shows - unannounced - hardcore porn to a mixed audience of kids and adults and those that think that that action was wrong have to explain why they feel that way?
If I had you and your kids over to my house for an evening of Bible talk and then decided it was time to show you the home movie of my "witnessing" trip to a Tijuana donkey show, how many of yas would be running to my defense now?
Of course I'm not The Great and Wonderful MOG, I guess that makes all the difference...
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Ham
Oldies, I think it depends on the depth of pain inflicted.
I don't see hate here. I think most people talk of the vicster and cronies as they see them, or as they experienced them.
I think he was a flim-flam artist, and built his organization not much unlike how Capone built his..
But..
What if they required castration, to be proper and free to do the "will of gawwd"?
Maybe that is the closest male version to what they did to some women..
so you go ahead, do the "procedure".. it's just a couple of cells ya know.. an "appendage"..
Jesus said, "if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out.." maybe we could apply that to the "modern" times.. if your.. offends you.. well, it's a small thing compared with loss of vision.
So let's just yank it out, it can't breath on it's own for pity's sake..
and then you find out you've been flim flammed.. fooled.. deceived.. by a madman..
how would YOU feel?
You might say, "well, that's entirely different.."
Is it? See.. what these women were robbed of, was MOTHERHOOD. What if someone robbed you of your FATHERHOOD, using the name of God to do so?
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Ham
It's more like some try to give the roach cpr to hopefully revive it..
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oldiesman
I think VP's legacy is the continued teaching and preaching of the accuracy of the Word of God. I believe the important thing is that the Word continues to be taught and believed... and I think that is what he would have wanted most. I see nothing wrong with that and much right about it.
And, I think that's the only profitable thing that's left. Hatred is destructive and doesn't help.
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Abigail
Theoretically, philosophically even, you may be correct. But what about the legacy of abuse that also lives on via LCM and those members of the BOD who KNEW and COVERED such things, and God only knows who else? THAT legacy needs to be stopped, no?
Did you ever take LCM's Believer's Family Class, the legacy of CFS?
Oh I know, one can argue VPW is not responsible for the actions of LCM and in some sense that is a valid argument. But one can also argue VPW IS responsible if he taught LCM such erronious and incredibly hurtful practices are acdeptable and that argument is also valid.
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lindyhopper
Actually, Odies, what is more destructive than hatred is wrong, devisive, controling, and hurtful doctrine being taught in the guise of "the accuracy of the Word of God."
Speaking out against something you think is that destructive, while you may hate it, is the right thing to do.
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oldiesman
I honestly don't see much profit in dwelling on your characterization of a "legacy of abuse that also lives on". I don't know that it is fair to say that the current state of affairs at twi is abusive, do you? Much like a Catholic parishoner may not find profit in dwelling on pedophile priests, life goes on. The church goes on.
If something at present is destructive and abusive, the Word says to reprove and rebuke, and make correction. If there is current abuse taking place in twi or the offshoots then it is incumbent to root it out and make correction. Do you know of any adultries / rapes currently taking place in twi or the offshoots? I don't know of any.
I think there is some current twi doctrine that is worth questioning; but I believe that can be accomplished in love and respect, not hatred and disrespect.
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waysider
The world is a much more savvy place today than it was 30-35 years ago, especially regarding matters like the one we are discussing.
If you produced this class(CF&S) today and presented it to the same types of audiences that viewed it back then, you could possibly be charged with *pandering obsenity* and possibly even *contributing to the delinquency of a minor*.
It has been stated by one poster that it is his opinion that VPW would not have presented this sort of thing with minors present.
And yet, there is testimony that he, in fact, did present similar material to at least one 14 year old. And, this was a "live and in person" event, not a filmed class session.
I was a class instructor for this particular class in the 1970s.
There was no disclaimer regarding the content. I think I would remember that detail.
The first time I ran it, there was a 14 year old girl signed up to take it.
I was apprehensive so I consulted with the leadership above me.
They gave me a "canned" response to the effect that "What better place to learn these things than in the safety of the household?" Pretty close to the exact words.
I did have one couple walk out one time. They were senior citizens and this stuff was off the charts of what they considered acceptable. They came back for the next session after a long meeting with their twig leader. I was not present and don't know what was discussed in their meeting.
You know, The Holocaust has been over for more than 60 years.
As long as people continue to deny that it happened, there will be those who speak up and proclaim its reality. Why? Well, maybe in doing so, they can help to prevent a recurrence.
Do I hate VP Wierwille?
No more so than I hate PT Barnum.
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doojable
If only it were accurate...
This would have happened with or without VPW. (Read above.)Well, his wants are irrelevant. We can only speculate as to what he wanted. I think he would have wanted to still be alive and in control of his empire.
No surprise there.The Word of God lives and abides forever VPW is a blip on the screen. It doesn't take hatred to put things in their proper perspective.
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WordWolf
Nobody said the sole-or even most likely purpose- for a 50-year-old to show teens and early 20s
videos of young women having sex with animals was specifically to PROMOTE BESTIALITY.
However,
pretending the only choices are
"he was trying to get people into bestiality"
and
"he had some other purpose, which was noble"
makes it a lot easier to pretend that there WERE sane reasons to show bestiality pornographic videos
to young people.
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Abigail
I really have little direct knowledge of what the various offshoots do, I've never been involved in one. But it is my understanding that the woman who covered for LCM (who was picked by VPW and seems to have followed in his foot steps in all the wrong ways) is now president of TWI. To me, that is a huge red flag.
I was thinking about this as well, Oldies, how did VPW even come by such films?
I am not sure, by it is my guess videos involving beastiality would be illegal in the U.S. even to this day. I'm thinking it is even more likely they were illegal back then. It's not like he could have just stopped into your friendly video store, browsed the "back room" and picked one out, is it? Myabe I am the niave one here - Sheesh!
So then WHO did he have to know to get ahold of such a thing? And what about copyright issues? Even if it were legal, I am assuming he would have to have permission to use it in a class he is being paid to teach, no?
And given what we know about sexuality today, it all makes me a bit nauseous to be sure. Think about it, men in particular are by and large VISUALLY stimulated sexually. Women - to a lesser degree. So lets get a bunch of men and women together in a class and show them pornographic videos under the guise of Christianity? Under the guise of "a witnessing tool?" So they won't be shocked??
Again, I go back to my question - out of all the people who took that class and watched those videos, and then went witnessing - how many of them do you think actually drew on something they learned by watching pornographic videos to help them lead someone else to God?? What percentage of them came across even one human being who confessed to them they were "into" bestiality?
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oldiesman
Abigail, if you're asking me these questions, then I would refer you to my previous answer about seeking the good in Wierwille, which you said you bought. I don't answer these speculative questions that can have no real answers and only seem to result in strife and debate.
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Abigail
And I do buy it, Oldies. At the same time, I will add, that as with all things there is a balance to be found. I can look at the life of Jeffrey Dalmer and I may be able to find good things that he did at some point in time in his life. I may even be able to empathize with him for the horrid childhood he endured (if that were so, I really have no idea) but at the same time, I can recognize that his life took a wrong turn somewhere and he would be a danger to society if we simply let him loose on the people again.
I also recognize the analogy doesn't fit, in that VPW is dead.
In any case, I guess I don't really expect you to answer the questions Oldies. I think I was thinking out loud more than anything. Believe it or not, I do try to see the valid arguments on all sides of this issue. I never knew the man, he never directly hurt me personally. That doesn't mean I can simply turn a blind eye to the people I know were hurt by him. I can't just "invalidate" them by seeing only the good and ignoring the bad. Nor do I wish to see only the bad and ignore the good.
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T-Bone
Welcome class, today’s de-sensitivity training is by our own illustrious sexual predator, New Knoxville’s foremost expert on moral depravity. His expertise spans a wide variety of skills as I’m sure you’ve heard of his How I Plagiarized for Glory and Profit story – it often goes by the subtitle A Few Big Things I Stole to Make PFAL.
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oldiesman
Sounds fair to me. :)
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doojable
I'm gonna' come right out and say it. I truly believe that VP's main motivation for showing THAT video at Rome City, to THAT audience (with teenaged girls in the room) was purely voyeuristic. In other words, I really believe that VPW got a kick out of seeing the various reactions in the room.
Say I'm thinking evil if you want. Say I'm judging him. I don't know have any other sane reason for his actions.
BTW - my reaction to the "Christian Family and Sex" class was that it was really about sex and very little about Christian Family. I wouldn't even put it in the category of sex education. I'm no prude and I wasn't a prude when I was 20. I just don't remember walking out of there feeling the class had been appropriately titled.
Maybe it should have been called, "VPW does New Knoxville." <_<
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waysider
How about "Christian Sex And More Sex"?
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