Well the ONLY thing that you care about is the word....ok...but is THAT what Jesus said was important? Oh please...he said to love God and love your neighbor....all of that word and study is nothing without charity.
As far as screwing up? Yeah we all do ...but not all of us drug and rape and steal from the very believer given in our care :(
I think that you might still be beguilled into not caring about your brothers and sisters suffering.
The only thing that concerns me is getting a greater knowledge of God's Word and then holding it forth to the best of my ability.
[Whenever I hear buzzwords aligned so precisely, so rehearsed, I maintain a safe distance and grab my hazmat gear.]
From the time I learned to walk I was around some of the most powerful political and military leaders in this country. Decades before I even heard about PFAL I had learned to not idolize them, but to know that I was on the same level with them and to deal with them as peers.
When I got to PFAL, I never held Lynn, Wierwille, Geer or anyone else on a pedestal.
I had seen personal failings of powerful, charismatic men in my own living room and knew to expect it from others.
The only thing approaching holding someone as a hero was reserved for a number of men in the Marine Corps I knew who wore that pretty blue ribbon with the little white stars on it because I knew just what they did to earn it. And even around the likes of Lou Wilson, Ray Davis, David Shoup and "Chesty" Puller, I learned to keep my awe in check.
My first twig coordinator also made it a priority to stress that it was the Word that was important.
This made it easier for me to have more of a take-it-or-leave-it attitude toward the politics and the organization.
Once I got my sleeves rolled up and got to really working the Word and came across things in PFAL I did not understand or disagreed with, I set them aside.
Everything I believe now and share is stuff I have worked for myself extensively. There were times when I was surprised when I had done more in-depth research than those you mention and others.
Not having seen what I have worked, please don't presume to know it.
I used to get a chuckle when I would find my Strong's wasn't so comprehensive after all and I have notes of a few things they missed.
[That's not bad, IMHO.]
Those things offend me when done by anyone.
I have done some pretty rotten things myself.
So have you.
I am not interested in lurid one-sided stories. I have heard and been around too many of them in my own life.
I am unaware of any claims VP and the rest committed mass murder,but I am aware that Saul murdered Christians and let's think for a moment of how Peter and James and the rest were able to even tolerate his presence without killing the sumbitch. Somehow they managed, and the love and forgiveness they had is something we all need.
[see, every time we get a statement like this, what it's meant is
"I wish to maintain the image of vpw as some sort of benevolent, wise teacher,
and wish to avoid any references to him drugging women, raping women,
using their 'birth to the corps' papers to decide WHICH women to rape,
and arranging an inner cadre to help facilitate this and cover his tracks afterwards,
monitoring women so that he could dispose of them if they looked like they were going to
tell someone. Among other things."
Me, I would rarely even mention the evil actions vpw did, except we keep getting people dedicated
to COVERING UP the evil actions vpw did-
then accusing the rest of US of being fixated because we refuse to let them cover up his evil acts.
Tell me this....
Can you honestly say "I think it was terrible that vpw drugged and raped women, and organized things
to make that easier and arrange things so he could get away with it"?
If so, then I see little reason to continue discussing it with you- you're informed, consider it wrong,
and won't be pretending it didn't happen.
If not, then the motivation for us to STOP talking about it is NOT what you reported, and you're fooling
yourself, if not us. You DID just claim you never put wierwille on a pedastal- is that really true?
Please think that over for a bit.]
I have never heard anyone say there is too much kindness in the world
I have never heard anyone say there is too much forgiveness in the world
I have never heard anyone say there is too much love in the world
[Neither have I, and many of us put action to word on that when we're not on the GSC.
Our posts here =\= our lives.
We CAN tell the truth about things hidden, and ALSO spread love, kindness and forgiveness!
Imagine that! Sometimes love and kindness involve helping someone face their pain, and sitting
with them and listening, without reciting Bible verses in response.
At the GSC, a LOT of people have gotten that kind of help.
And if you want to discuss DOCTRINE, we have a forum for that, called "DOCTRINAL."
The idea that we must EITHER spread love, kindness and forgiveness OR report the evils that
have been performed on suffering brethren is a "FALSE DILEMMA."
We don't have only two choices, and they are not mutually-exclusive.
For that matter, HIDING the evils that have been performed on suffering brethren is not synonymous
with spreading love, forgiveness and kindness, either.
I think what you are doing is transferring your own former prejudices onto me, figuring that since we both took the class, that we both came away with and held those same prejudices all these years.
Sorry, but what I see is hurt people lashing back and obsessing on events that took place decades ago.
We all were hurt, but no one can walk forward in a straight line if their gaze is fixed backward over their shoulder.
Stop picking at that scab and let it heal.
It looks to me as if the bitterness held in is eating people up because they are holding it in.
[Except when people keep reporting vpw was an ok guy and didn't inflict great suffering, we don't
keep circling the same old points.
And make up your mind- are we "holding it in", or posting it all the time? Can't be both, can't discuss something
while "holding it in."
"We all were hurt."
Me, I wasn't really hurt, and from what you're saying, you weren't really hurt, either.
That means it's unfair to tell the women whom vpw PERSONALLY wronged, "Oh, just suck it up."
Do you know how long it takes to rebuild a life when someone has decimated it with acts of rape and other
destructive, evil deeds? Any PROFESSIONAL could tell you that it's not a 5-minute job with a pep talk, a
verse recitation, and a pat on the back.
And again, you're confusing what we post here with "what we do 99% of the time".
What you SEE is not what is happening.
Similarly, you may have seen vpw as some benevolent teacher who loved his people and would have suffered
for them, instead of one who inflicted suffering ON them. What you SAW was not what was happening.]
Abandon the false doctrine and hold to that which is true and workworkwork that Word on your own, no matter who it comes from. The person who is on the money today could do the human thing and make a mistake tomorrow. That goes for all of us.
[This is STILL not a Christian board. Here, read this:
Something valuable I still hold that VP said was it is easier for me to forgive others when I think of what I have been forgiven for.
I don't think Wierwille of Martindale ever hunted down Christians and murdered them in cold blood, but all of our Bibles contain records of those in the early church who found a way to forgive and love Saul of Tarsus. We have those records to not only marvel at what they did,but also to understand what we may do, and must do, in order to move God's Word.
Rascal, I know you mean the best and I thank you for it.
[so, because some people murdered, and vpw and lcm didn't and only ruined lives without killing them-
although they DID drive people to commit suicide- EACH of them, does that count as killing someone?-
we're not supposed to take offense at what evils they committed?
We're supposed to shrug, say "well, people sin" and just give them a free pass?
When I was a kid, I had a nasty accident and fractured my arm in multiple places.
But, HEY!----- It was worth it because I got some really good ice cream in the hospital.
-----IT'S THE WORD, ETC. ETC.------------
Geeze, Deciderater, have you even taken the time to review some of the information here regarding the PFAL class?
Do you not realize that, not only was it lifted from other sources, some of it was downright inaccurate?
I mean, if you really believe that stuff about how it's "The Word And Nothing But The Word" it seems like it would have you outraged that the PFAL class(and VPW) fell embarrassingly short of delivering just that.
Maybe you could review the article that deals with "actual errors in PFAL" and then comment on specific points that you agree or disagree with.
That might be a good starting point for a discussion of the subject.
Of course, that's assuming you actually want to discuss it and not insist people accept your opinion blindly.
Eyesopen, I was simply answering the question of the thread topic.
I aplogize to all for the long posts, too.
Jonny Lingo, Now that's funny!
Waysider, thanks for the welcome. Yes, I was aware of material VP lifted. I learned it back in the 20th century, dealt with it and moved on.
Wordwolf, what I said I meant.
I happen to be in a better position than you to know what I meant.
Changing the meaning of my words in order to debate what I didn't say is one-a them "straw man" dillios.
Before I am accused again by someone who knows me not of "hero worship" or something similar, let me elaborate a little on the sort of men I described earlier.
Instead of pretending to know who my heroes have been, let me tell you myself, because I know better than you.
Please keep in mind that I learned to read with books about their deeds, spoke to them and others who were there about their experiences and lessons they learned many times; and whom I was trained to not be in awe of, but behave as if they were just "one of the boys." Those begging for autographs and looking on in drop-jawed suck-up wonder never got invited.
Ever know anyone who has killed with their bare hands, used a bayonet to eviscerate a man and have his guts spill in their lap or have arterial blood geyser into their face; and not just once but many times? I tell you what, it'll send a shudder through you to be playing bridge with someone who did, and have that thought enter as they smilingly hand you the deck of cards to cut.
I learned fearlessness from "Chesty" Puller, who was in a hole fighting the enemy close enough to toss a hand grenade in there, and when the warning was shouted he just snorted, spat at the thing and shouted above the din, "I'm Chesty Puller! They can't kill me!" and durned if the thing wasn't a dud. It was he and the next man, "Silent Lew" Walt who taught me "the first rule of leadership is 'Follow me!'" Silent Lew's first of two Medal of Honor recommendations came on what became known as "Walt Ridge" on New Britain. They were hit on all sides and from the trees above when they entered a complex of 37 perfectly camoflaged bunkers and men were dropping like flies around him when he stood and ran back with a runner to get a cannon which they and others pulled and pushed up a hill in a hail of heavy fire concentrated on them. One after the other those around him were killed or wounded and lemme tell you it's not like in the movies where they grab their shoulder for a second, grimace, tie on a hankie and continue apace. They worked the thing up the hill a ways, fired it, and then moved it again. It was the only thing to do to save those men's lives and in the process he pulled both arms out of - I said out of - his shoulder sockets. He refused evacuation and morphine and remained in command. That night the fighting was hand-to-hand and he looked up, helpless, to see a Japanese soldier with a raised samurai sword about to whack him in two. Silent Lew struggled with his .45 and no one is sure if it was he who killed the enemy soldier or whether it was an American artillery shell burst directly overhead that did him in.
And how did that come to pass? because in the noise and confusion and roar of battle, with fear thick and emotions blazing amid the shrieks of those around him hacking each other to pieces, Walt had to keep his wits about him and did. He ordered everyone to take cover as he ordered our artillery to fire on his own position. And he did so with a voice as cool and calm as a golf game announcer (hence the nickname). There are many stories, amazing stories about this forgotten hero who called me "son," and many thought him foolhardy if not insane to continually expose himself to enemy fire in battle after battle leading his men forward. This is a man who had to look some of them in the eye when he sent them to their deaths.
Besides leadership I learned believing from him. He truly believed that God would not let him die in combat, and He didn't. He was thoroughly convinced of God's will and he walked out on that in the midst of daunting horror we can not imagine.
Let me give you an example of what he had to overcome. Once, I believe it was on Pelileu a tank rolled over his foot. My mother asked him, "Lew, those things are sure noisy and not very fast, why didn't you just move your foot out of the way?"
He replied, "Sometimes you are so scared you become completely paralized and can't."
Ray Davis, in the retreat from the Chosin Reservoir in Korea led his men for miles at night in waist-deep snow in weather that was 20 - 30 below zero, not counting the wind chill factor. Well, it wasn't all waist-deep snow. A lot of it was up a mountain that was snow and rock, and they engaged and defeated a vicious, brutal enemy in order to rescue a group of Marines about to be wiped out.
David Shoup waded through 5-800 yards of chest-deep water to get to the shore of a liitle island called Betio in the Tarawa atoll. The whole way there he was not only under heavy fire from the enemy, but he and his men were wading through the bodies of hundreds of dead men - and that was before he even had a chance to organize and command the attack once he got ashore. He went on to become Commandant and it was he who stood against the majority opinion of the Joint Chiefs and was a major factor JFK did not order an invasion of Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Had we done so, nuclear war would have erupted and none of us would have ever taken that PFAL class. It wasn't until many years later that we found out there were 70 nukes there we didn't know about. The commander was under a standing order to use them if we landed on Cuba.
These kind of men were mighty special. I learned much from them and was comfortable in their presence. Some I knew for decades. There were a number of others like them whom I knew or met socially.
And I will add, without going into detail, that they were all as fallible as you or I or any of those some of you take sport in savaging. I saw and heard things I wish I hadn't.
So when, as a grown man, I was exposed to those whom some of the rest of you idolized, I did not. I gave respect just like I give respect to anyone who treats me decently.
I was not blinded by idol-worship.
What I find funny is the fact that what I cited that I learned and kept from the class - IT'S THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD! can be believed at the same time you reject everything VP ever did and engage in all the other criticism.
As the cliche goes, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
It was a dark and dreary night and the Captain said to Pedro"----------------------------------------
No offense, D. , but what does any of that have to do with the fact that what was represented in PFAL as being "The Word, etc." was , in many places, inaccurate and exemplified Private Interpretation?
It was a catchy phrase, no doubt.
But, is was designed to rally the sales force to go out and push the product(ie: PFAL).
Go back and read the information on "actual errors in PFAL" and the tell me why it is you think it (PFAL) represented "The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word".
So when, as a grown man, I was exposed to those whom some of the rest of you idolized, I did not. I gave respect just like I give respect to anyone who treats me decently.
I was not blinded by idol-worship.
What I find funny is the fact that what I cited that I learned and kept from the class - IT'S THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD! can be believed at the same time you reject everything VP ever did and engage in all the other criticism.
As the cliche goes, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
What I find funny is your viewpoints of EXTREMISM.......aka black/white thinking. It's THAT type of cult-like regimentation that we've discussed on these boards time and time again.
You learned (and hold onto) this cliche.....It's the word, the word, etc.
"the rest of you idolized"..........(and you know this HOW?)
Other posters here "reject EVERYTHING vpw ever did"......
You know, deciderator......if you go back and read your first couple of posts on this thread, YOU CRITICIZED twi as an organization, YOU CRITICIZED the limb and branch coordinators in your area and stated that your first twig coordinator was protecting those in your twig from twi/leadership. In so many ways, your viewpoint is not that different from so many others here.
Also, you are making huge presumptions here......not really knowing me (as I do NOT know you). But knowing that you talk about the military alot......sounds like not only your family (father?) was a military man, but you went into the military as well. And, your posts strike me as one who took pfal while in the military......and possibly your twig coordinator was military too. THEREFORE.....you guys and the limb/branch leadership had a distant (and bristled) arrangement. I could be wrong on this.....but I do know that military personnel lived in what I call a "parallel environment"........in the way ministry, but not indoctrinated by vp's leadership.
Sounds like you've "made your mark" in life and society......but please know that others were deeply indoctrinated, abused and hurt under wierwille's leadership AND many europeans had the same types of experiences under cgeer's leadership. Surely, you can understand THAT! And, surely.......if you walk the talk, you can have compassion on the broken-hearted, the oppressed, the captives....like Jesus did. The gospels are full of records where Jesus was one-on-one helping and ministering.
ok so you do not idolize men, I also have large people in my own family who are indeed worshipped for the position they have in life and work. I just love them because we can spend time together loving one another.
I aslo have an attitude of so what , in fact one of the famous talk shows on tv had the children of famous rock stars on and what life was like for them .. they all said they just wanted their dad to spend more time and love them and today see them as just their "dads".
few if any regular posters worship any othese guys in the way. your not special in your thinking really not. If some did they did but that is not the major issue as I see it with your agruement.
the word blah blah blah..
ok what word?
how about that word seems like a good word to me lets go with that word ok?
only pfal?
then dear you are guilty of making that class an idol , to put pfal the class like you claim is so wrong to do to men.
you put it on a position in your mind that it can not fail.
it must be right because it was good for you and amazing so hey it IS the answer.
if your want to say it is the bible then and skirt out it is indeed about the sale of the class that sold ya , then how about bible verses then???
how many spins are available for that ?
plenty.
it doesnt make any sense your cry fowl for the posters here for having respect for the leadrs and you did not and then put the classes oftwi in the same type of protective unchanging security does it?
Everything I believe now and share is stuff I have worked for myself extensively.
Deciderator, PFAL was communicated for folks like you. I believe this is EXACTLY what Dr. Wierwille wanted when he taught the class, that folks could work the word themselves and make it their own. Bravo!
Ya know, I gotta agree with Deciderator on a major point. It is The Word and nothing but the Word, and I liked that part of PFAL also. It really doesn't matter what you or I think when it comes to God's Word. Obviously, there are inaccuracies in multitudes of Christian ministries, but when it is the true Word of God when found, that accurate Word of God should be held "par excellant"(sp?) in our hearts and minds. I think Jesus would agree with that also. He believed it to the letter, and look at what he did in life, for you and me. I think I'll try to follow his example. "Not my will, but thine be done..."
Personally, I think vpw used phrases like "the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" and "when it comes to the Word I have no friends" as a deceitful tool – elevating his skewed interpretation of the Bible to be on par with Scripture! You're left with only two choices in PFAL – vpw's viewpoint which is always right or any other viewpoint which is always wrong.
[P.S. In PFAL, "The Word" is code for vpw's interpretation of the Bible.]
*The word the word and nothing but the word* OBVIOUSLY wasn`6t enough or the men spouting that proclamation wouldn`t have been drugging raping, destroying, driving people to death with impunity.
These guys DID this stuff all the while that it was a-ok because THEY had *THE* word and that was all that mattered.
Rascal, that Yoda thing just "isn't you". I think you should have an icon of a cute and rascally raccoon. I'll bet you are way prettier and cuter than Yoda! :)
Ya know, I gotta agree with Deciderator on a major point. It is The Word and nothing but the Word, and I liked that part of PFAL also. It really doesn't matter what you or I think when it comes to God's Word. Obviously, there are inaccuracies an multitudes of Christian ministries, but when it is the true Word of God when found, that accurate Word of God should be held "par excellant"(sp?) in our hearts and minds. I think Jesus would agree with that also. He believed it to the letter, and look at what he did in life, for you and me. I think I'll try to follow his example. "Not my will, but thine be done..."
ok great johnny the TRUE WORD then is the solution.
so what preacher says this isnt the true word? they all claim to have the one and only !!!
hello
so which one is the true word???
and old man that is easy to say to make it your own , when it as dictated by the ministry and its reasearch. without the keys from pfal and the way ministry you would not be nearly as confident that "you know what you know" heck you learned that very idea in the way ministry.
so ya read it and it said the same thing eh??? not really that simple is it? plenty of other disagree with what you "make as your own".
but the theory flies easier with out the pesky accusation of following men, it is the same trick tho, just as slimy.
We all were hurt, but no one can walk forward in a straight line if their gaze is fixed backward over their shoulder.
Just a thought..who wants to walk a straight line anyway, or a line defined by someone else? You can goad an ox into walking a straight line.. you can put blinders on a horse so it is not distracted..
But people? What possible reason would a person want to induce others to walk a straight path, in a guise that it was the "word", unless it was in the one who induces best interests?
I never got any REAL reward for making sure the chairs were properly strung, the mall properly "witnessed", not to mention the neighborhood..
no real pay to speak of..
The "ministry" however, did see substantial revenue from those who I brought, those who I carefully "guided" into it's "hallowed" grounds..
I feel like I was no better than an ox, or horse.
Sounds like fun. Put the yoke back on my neck, bit back in my mouth.. I don't mind the blinders..
I never got any REAL reward for making sure the chairs were properly strung, the mall properly "witnessed", not to mention the neighborhood..
No reward of any kind for sorting through miles and bundles of phone wire at new branch guy's house, for his BUSINESS- saved HIM about three hundred or so bucks though..
no reward, for hauling stereo and video equipment all over God's creation..
no reward, for cleaning, etc. etc. for classes, fellowships..
no reward, or even a thank you, for helping the last three sycophants move trucks of crap, when they moved in and out of the area..
the last meeting I had with leadership, "we KNOW there is something wrong with you, you'd better spill your guts.."
I finally figured out what my "problem" was, I was serving a group a lunatics, and a corrupt organization.
An organization would have to jump through some pretty high hoops before I'd even remotely consider doing a quarter of what I did..
Don't get me wrong.. everything I did, I thought I was doing for God.. "blessed" at the time. Just rather disappointed that all the labor ended up being absorbed by a stinking corrupt organization.
Don't get me wrong.. everything I did, I thought I was doing for God.. "blessed" at the time. Just rather disappointed that all the labor ended up being absorbed by a stinking corrupt organization.
Sounds like you have an agenda here....decide-o-right.
You sure you want to get into the "mess with the screen name game," flydiaper?
Go back and read the information on "actual errors in PFAL" and the tell me why it is you think it (PFAL) represented "The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word".
Waysider, there you go again, addressing something I did not say.
You do this a lot?
Pond: same response. You are pretending I said something I did not.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you get as offended as I do when people falsely accuse you of saying and believing certain things.
*The word the word and nothing but the word* OBVIOUSLY wasn`6t enough or the men spouting that proclamation wouldn`t have been drugging raping, destroying, driving people to death with impunity.
These guys DID this stuff all the while that it was a-ok because THEY had *THE* word and that was all that mattered.
Jesus and the scripture said otherwise.
Rascal, if indeed they did those things it was NOT ok.
Our taxes finance something in this country called the "criminal justice system."
You may have heard of it. Over 2 million Americans reside in things called "jails" or "prisons" because they have been convicted of crimes like those listed above.
This "criminal justice system" has been developing for hundreds of years and over that time there have arisen certain procedures and protections to try to insure the guilty are dealt with properly and the innocent are not wrongly punished.
In America, there is something called the "presumption of innocence." In the legal system where we deal with crimes like rape, assault, etc a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. An accusation, no matter how horrid, is just that, an accusation. Even when there is much evidence and many eyewitnesses, a person is still presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. No matter how heinous the crime, the accused has a right to confront the accuser and to cross examine witnesses, present exculpatory evidence, etc.
Maybe you heard of a case recently at Duke University where some blokes on the lacrosse team were accused of rape. Initially, a lot of people thought them guilty.
A lot of people thought Byron Halsey was guilty, too.
In 1985 Halsey was living with a woman whose 7 year-old girl was raped and strangled and her 8 year-old brother was killed by four nails hammered into his head. Their bodies were found in the basement of the home Halsey shared with the mother. A neighbor, Cliff Hall, testified against Halsey and in 1988 a jury found him guilty. He narrowly escaped the death penalty and last May was released from prison after DNA evidence exonerated him and implicated Hall.
Take the time to look up The Innocence Project and you will find they have been able to get something like over 100 people off of death row who were wrongly convicted of capital crimes.
Accusations must be taken seriously, especially those you mentioned. But keep in mind an accusation and presentation of evidence is only a small part of a system to determine guilt or innocence. There have been many, many cases where a seemingly open-and-shut case against someone turned out to be wrong.
In Spotsylvania County, Virginia there was the case of the Lisk sisters who were raped and murdered. They were last seen getting into a white van. Fibers were found on their bodies. Investigators had a profile of the sort of person who might fit this crime. Sure enough, down the street lived a loner-type loser who fit the profile. He had a white van and was thought of as being kinda creepy. He moved away right after the crimes. He had a history of petty crimes. Captured in Florida, a blanket he had owned in Virginia was seized in his van and forensic technicians at the state crime lab matched it to threads found on the bodies. He had no alibi on the date of the crimes. The whole community "knew" he was guilty and was ready to lynch him.
Fortunately, his lawyer thought to challenge the alleged "perfect match" of the fibers and sent them to the FBI crime lab. The results showed there was no resemblance at all betweeen the fibers from the bodies and those from the blanket in the van. If you saw the pictures in the paper of the comparisons, you would be shocked that sane, expert technicians would make such a connection.
But they did and an innocent man could have been executed by the state on the basis of their testimony.
I am not proclaiming anyone innocent or guilty.
I am saying that seemingly overwhelming evidence can cause a rush to judgement which results in the conviction of the innocent.
It happens more frequently that we would like and so what we must do is adhere to the system we have developed.
Abandoning that system puts us on the path to disaster.
But rascal, I do like when you call me "dear." You mind if I call you "honey?" I'm a Southerner and I say it reeeeal nice.....
Ya know, I gotta agree with Deciderator on a major point. It is The Word and nothing but the Word ....... I think Jesus would agree with that also. He believed it to the letter, and look at what he did in life, for you and me. I think I'll try to follow his example. "Not my will, but thine be done..."
Thanks, Johnny.
Well said, sir.
You too, oldiesman.
Instead of pretending to read something I did not write, you took me at my own word.
... Go back and read the information on "actual errors in PFAL" and the tell me why it is you think it (PFAL) represented "The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word".
Why should anyone go back and read through all that malarky? I guess there probably are some people who do though - people who want other people to make up their minds for them. Some people don't mind, and as the old saying goes, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Since when does somebody else's "actual errors in PFAL" thread and their skewed viewpoint and bias about PFAL have more authority than what is actually in PFAL itself?
so wha?t your posts claim long storys about nothing to do with anything . stay on topic if you want to make sense and not be so boring most just give up.
the word? What freaking WORD are you talking about hmm? the bible verses is that it is that your word and nothing but? or is it pfal class? the bible has a million teachers and spinners and if your so stuck it must be pfal or death then how are you not making it an IDOL just like you claim you would never have for a man? same difference.
is this simple enough for ya? you do not need to write what most humans know already we are not three years old waiting to be told the truth of life or the way ministry by YOU .
so ya read the newspaper or some internet blog about an injustice and you have met great people you admire but do not make in an idol, big deal so long and boring it was for me the POINT IS man what the hell are you talking about when you say
it is nothing but the word?
what word? vpw was speaking about his class he meant his work his teachings, NOW i do not want to assume you mean the same so answer it already will ya?
instead of accusing people of being wrong about you use simple answers about what we are talking about instead of your boring lengthy education seminars on life .
you can answer to johnny but your posts are not as boring.
Darth varder
the difference is just that a different view , both claim to be research and study of the holy bible and you ask a good question
what is the difference one had a group of cult people blindly falling into a mind set that didnt allow them to know or think any different and the the other is not.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
rascal
Well the ONLY thing that you care about is the word....ok...but is THAT what Jesus said was important? Oh please...he said to love God and love your neighbor....all of that word and study is nothing without charity.
As far as screwing up? Yeah we all do ...but not all of us drug and rape and steal from the very believer given in our care :(
I think that you might still be beguilled into not caring about your brothers and sisters suffering.
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WordWolf
Hello, Deciderator.
[Whenever I hear buzzwords aligned so precisely, so rehearsed, I maintain a safe distance and grab my hazmat gear.]
[That's not bad, IMHO.][see, every time we get a statement like this, what it's meant is
"I wish to maintain the image of vpw as some sort of benevolent, wise teacher,
and wish to avoid any references to him drugging women, raping women,
using their 'birth to the corps' papers to decide WHICH women to rape,
and arranging an inner cadre to help facilitate this and cover his tracks afterwards,
monitoring women so that he could dispose of them if they looked like they were going to
tell someone. Among other things."
Me, I would rarely even mention the evil actions vpw did, except we keep getting people dedicated
to COVERING UP the evil actions vpw did-
then accusing the rest of US of being fixated because we refuse to let them cover up his evil acts.
Tell me this....
Can you honestly say "I think it was terrible that vpw drugged and raped women, and organized things
to make that easier and arrange things so he could get away with it"?
If so, then I see little reason to continue discussing it with you- you're informed, consider it wrong,
and won't be pretending it didn't happen.
If not, then the motivation for us to STOP talking about it is NOT what you reported, and you're fooling
yourself, if not us. You DID just claim you never put wierwille on a pedastal- is that really true?
Please think that over for a bit.]
[Neither have I, and many of us put action to word on that when we're not on the GSC.Our posts here =\= our lives.
We CAN tell the truth about things hidden, and ALSO spread love, kindness and forgiveness!
Imagine that! Sometimes love and kindness involve helping someone face their pain, and sitting
with them and listening, without reciting Bible verses in response.
At the GSC, a LOT of people have gotten that kind of help.
And if you want to discuss DOCTRINE, we have a forum for that, called "DOCTRINAL."
The idea that we must EITHER spread love, kindness and forgiveness OR report the evils that
have been performed on suffering brethren is a "FALSE DILEMMA."
We don't have only two choices, and they are not mutually-exclusive.
For that matter, HIDING the evils that have been performed on suffering brethren is not synonymous
with spreading love, forgiveness and kindness, either.
[Except when people keep reporting vpw was an ok guy and didn't inflict great suffering, we don't
keep circling the same old points.
And make up your mind- are we "holding it in", or posting it all the time? Can't be both, can't discuss something
while "holding it in."
"We all were hurt."
Me, I wasn't really hurt, and from what you're saying, you weren't really hurt, either.
That means it's unfair to tell the women whom vpw PERSONALLY wronged, "Oh, just suck it up."
Do you know how long it takes to rebuild a life when someone has decimated it with acts of rape and other
destructive, evil deeds? Any PROFESSIONAL could tell you that it's not a 5-minute job with a pep talk, a
verse recitation, and a pat on the back.
And again, you're confusing what we post here with "what we do 99% of the time".
What you SEE is not what is happening.
Similarly, you may have seen vpw as some benevolent teacher who loved his people and would have suffered
for them, instead of one who inflicted suffering ON them. What you SAW was not what was happening.]
[This is STILL not a Christian board. Here, read this:http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913 ]
[so, because some people murdered, and vpw and lcm didn't and only ruined lives without killing them-
although they DID drive people to commit suicide- EACH of them, does that count as killing someone?-
we're not supposed to take offense at what evils they committed?
We're supposed to shrug, say "well, people sin" and just give them a free pass?
That SEEMS to be what you're SUGGESTING....]
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J0nny Ling0
What I really liked in PFAL was the funny things about Jonny Jump Up, Snowball Pete, and man! That Henry Balloco, was he wild!
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Danny
He/She/it could of said I love you and If you didn't get that I love you.
And all of yall are going to hell.
it's the word yea right
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waysider
When I was a kid, I had a nasty accident and fractured my arm in multiple places.
But, HEY!----- It was worth it because I got some really good ice cream in the hospital.
-----IT'S THE WORD, ETC. ETC.------------
Geeze, Deciderater, have you even taken the time to review some of the information here regarding the PFAL class?
Do you not realize that, not only was it lifted from other sources, some of it was downright inaccurate?
I mean, if you really believe that stuff about how it's "The Word And Nothing But The Word" it seems like it would have you outraged that the PFAL class(and VPW) fell embarrassingly short of delivering just that.
Maybe you could review the article that deals with "actual errors in PFAL" and then comment on specific points that you agree or disagree with.
That might be a good starting point for a discussion of the subject.
Of course, that's assuming you actually want to discuss it and not insist people accept your opinion blindly.
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Deciderator
Eyesopen, I was simply answering the question of the thread topic.
I aplogize to all for the long posts, too.
Jonny Lingo, Now that's funny!
Waysider, thanks for the welcome. Yes, I was aware of material VP lifted. I learned it back in the 20th century, dealt with it and moved on.
Wordwolf, what I said I meant.
I happen to be in a better position than you to know what I meant.
Changing the meaning of my words in order to debate what I didn't say is one-a them "straw man" dillios.
Before I am accused again by someone who knows me not of "hero worship" or something similar, let me elaborate a little on the sort of men I described earlier.
Instead of pretending to know who my heroes have been, let me tell you myself, because I know better than you.
Please keep in mind that I learned to read with books about their deeds, spoke to them and others who were there about their experiences and lessons they learned many times; and whom I was trained to not be in awe of, but behave as if they were just "one of the boys." Those begging for autographs and looking on in drop-jawed suck-up wonder never got invited.
Ever know anyone who has killed with their bare hands, used a bayonet to eviscerate a man and have his guts spill in their lap or have arterial blood geyser into their face; and not just once but many times? I tell you what, it'll send a shudder through you to be playing bridge with someone who did, and have that thought enter as they smilingly hand you the deck of cards to cut.
I learned fearlessness from "Chesty" Puller, who was in a hole fighting the enemy close enough to toss a hand grenade in there, and when the warning was shouted he just snorted, spat at the thing and shouted above the din, "I'm Chesty Puller! They can't kill me!" and durned if the thing wasn't a dud. It was he and the next man, "Silent Lew" Walt who taught me "the first rule of leadership is 'Follow me!'" Silent Lew's first of two Medal of Honor recommendations came on what became known as "Walt Ridge" on New Britain. They were hit on all sides and from the trees above when they entered a complex of 37 perfectly camoflaged bunkers and men were dropping like flies around him when he stood and ran back with a runner to get a cannon which they and others pulled and pushed up a hill in a hail of heavy fire concentrated on them. One after the other those around him were killed or wounded and lemme tell you it's not like in the movies where they grab their shoulder for a second, grimace, tie on a hankie and continue apace. They worked the thing up the hill a ways, fired it, and then moved it again. It was the only thing to do to save those men's lives and in the process he pulled both arms out of - I said out of - his shoulder sockets. He refused evacuation and morphine and remained in command. That night the fighting was hand-to-hand and he looked up, helpless, to see a Japanese soldier with a raised samurai sword about to whack him in two. Silent Lew struggled with his .45 and no one is sure if it was he who killed the enemy soldier or whether it was an American artillery shell burst directly overhead that did him in.
And how did that come to pass? because in the noise and confusion and roar of battle, with fear thick and emotions blazing amid the shrieks of those around him hacking each other to pieces, Walt had to keep his wits about him and did. He ordered everyone to take cover as he ordered our artillery to fire on his own position. And he did so with a voice as cool and calm as a golf game announcer (hence the nickname). There are many stories, amazing stories about this forgotten hero who called me "son," and many thought him foolhardy if not insane to continually expose himself to enemy fire in battle after battle leading his men forward. This is a man who had to look some of them in the eye when he sent them to their deaths.
Besides leadership I learned believing from him. He truly believed that God would not let him die in combat, and He didn't. He was thoroughly convinced of God's will and he walked out on that in the midst of daunting horror we can not imagine.
Let me give you an example of what he had to overcome. Once, I believe it was on Pelileu a tank rolled over his foot. My mother asked him, "Lew, those things are sure noisy and not very fast, why didn't you just move your foot out of the way?"
He replied, "Sometimes you are so scared you become completely paralized and can't."
Ray Davis, in the retreat from the Chosin Reservoir in Korea led his men for miles at night in waist-deep snow in weather that was 20 - 30 below zero, not counting the wind chill factor. Well, it wasn't all waist-deep snow. A lot of it was up a mountain that was snow and rock, and they engaged and defeated a vicious, brutal enemy in order to rescue a group of Marines about to be wiped out.
David Shoup waded through 5-800 yards of chest-deep water to get to the shore of a liitle island called Betio in the Tarawa atoll. The whole way there he was not only under heavy fire from the enemy, but he and his men were wading through the bodies of hundreds of dead men - and that was before he even had a chance to organize and command the attack once he got ashore. He went on to become Commandant and it was he who stood against the majority opinion of the Joint Chiefs and was a major factor JFK did not order an invasion of Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Had we done so, nuclear war would have erupted and none of us would have ever taken that PFAL class. It wasn't until many years later that we found out there were 70 nukes there we didn't know about. The commander was under a standing order to use them if we landed on Cuba.
These kind of men were mighty special. I learned much from them and was comfortable in their presence. Some I knew for decades. There were a number of others like them whom I knew or met socially.
And I will add, without going into detail, that they were all as fallible as you or I or any of those some of you take sport in savaging. I saw and heard things I wish I hadn't.
So when, as a grown man, I was exposed to those whom some of the rest of you idolized, I did not. I gave respect just like I give respect to anyone who treats me decently.
I was not blinded by idol-worship.
What I find funny is the fact that what I cited that I learned and kept from the class - IT'S THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD! can be believed at the same time you reject everything VP ever did and engage in all the other criticism.
As the cliche goes, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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waysider
It was a dark and dreary night and the Captain said to Pedro"----------------------------------------
No offense, D. , but what does any of that have to do with the fact that what was represented in PFAL as being "The Word, etc." was , in many places, inaccurate and exemplified Private Interpretation?
It was a catchy phrase, no doubt.
But, is was designed to rally the sales force to go out and push the product(ie: PFAL).
Go back and read the information on "actual errors in PFAL" and the tell me why it is you think it (PFAL) represented "The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word".
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skyrider
What I find funny is your viewpoints of EXTREMISM.......aka black/white thinking. It's THAT type of cult-like regimentation that we've discussed on these boards time and time again.
You learned (and hold onto) this cliche.....It's the word, the word, etc.
"the rest of you idolized"..........(and you know this HOW?)
Other posters here "reject EVERYTHING vpw ever did"......
You know, deciderator......if you go back and read your first couple of posts on this thread, YOU CRITICIZED twi as an organization, YOU CRITICIZED the limb and branch coordinators in your area and stated that your first twig coordinator was protecting those in your twig from twi/leadership. In so many ways, your viewpoint is not that different from so many others here.
Also, you are making huge presumptions here......not really knowing me (as I do NOT know you). But knowing that you talk about the military alot......sounds like not only your family (father?) was a military man, but you went into the military as well. And, your posts strike me as one who took pfal while in the military......and possibly your twig coordinator was military too. THEREFORE.....you guys and the limb/branch leadership had a distant (and bristled) arrangement. I could be wrong on this.....but I do know that military personnel lived in what I call a "parallel environment"........in the way ministry, but not indoctrinated by vp's leadership.
Sounds like you've "made your mark" in life and society......but please know that others were deeply indoctrinated, abused and hurt under wierwille's leadership AND many europeans had the same types of experiences under cgeer's leadership. Surely, you can understand THAT! And, surely.......if you walk the talk, you can have compassion on the broken-hearted, the oppressed, the captives....like Jesus did. The gospels are full of records where Jesus was one-on-one helping and ministering.
Thanks for visiting GS.
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pond
ok so you do not idolize men, I also have large people in my own family who are indeed worshipped for the position they have in life and work. I just love them because we can spend time together loving one another.
I aslo have an attitude of so what , in fact one of the famous talk shows on tv had the children of famous rock stars on and what life was like for them .. they all said they just wanted their dad to spend more time and love them and today see them as just their "dads".
few if any regular posters worship any othese guys in the way. your not special in your thinking really not. If some did they did but that is not the major issue as I see it with your agruement.
the word blah blah blah..
ok what word?
how about that word seems like a good word to me lets go with that word ok?
only pfal?
then dear you are guilty of making that class an idol , to put pfal the class like you claim is so wrong to do to men.
you put it on a position in your mind that it can not fail.
it must be right because it was good for you and amazing so hey it IS the answer.
if your want to say it is the bible then and skirt out it is indeed about the sale of the class that sold ya , then how about bible verses then???
how many spins are available for that ?
plenty.
it doesnt make any sense your cry fowl for the posters here for having respect for the leadrs and you did not and then put the classes oftwi in the same type of protective unchanging security does it?
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oldiesman
Deciderator, PFAL was communicated for folks like you. I believe this is EXACTLY what Dr. Wierwille wanted when he taught the class, that folks could work the word themselves and make it their own. Bravo!
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J0nny Ling0
Ya know, I gotta agree with Deciderator on a major point. It is The Word and nothing but the Word, and I liked that part of PFAL also. It really doesn't matter what you or I think when it comes to God's Word. Obviously, there are inaccuracies in multitudes of Christian ministries, but when it is the true Word of God when found, that accurate Word of God should be held "par excellant"(sp?) in our hearts and minds. I think Jesus would agree with that also. He believed it to the letter, and look at what he did in life, for you and me. I think I'll try to follow his example. "Not my will, but thine be done..."
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T-Bone
Personally, I think vpw used phrases like "the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" and "when it comes to the Word I have no friends" as a deceitful tool – elevating his skewed interpretation of the Bible to be on par with Scripture! You're left with only two choices in PFAL – vpw's viewpoint which is always right or any other viewpoint which is always wrong.
[P.S. In PFAL, "The Word" is code for vpw's interpretation of the Bible.]
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rascal
*The word the word and nothing but the word* OBVIOUSLY wasn`6t enough or the men spouting that proclamation wouldn`t have been drugging raping, destroying, driving people to death with impunity.
These guys DID this stuff all the while that it was a-ok because THEY had *THE* word and that was all that mattered.
Jesus and the scripture said otherwise.
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J0nny Ling0
Rascal, that Yoda thing just "isn't you". I think you should have an icon of a cute and rascally raccoon. I'll bet you are way prettier and cuter than Yoda! :)
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pond
ok great johnny the TRUE WORD then is the solution.
so what preacher says this isnt the true word? they all claim to have the one and only !!!
hello
so which one is the true word???
and old man that is easy to say to make it your own , when it as dictated by the ministry and its reasearch. without the keys from pfal and the way ministry you would not be nearly as confident that "you know what you know" heck you learned that very idea in the way ministry.
so ya read it and it said the same thing eh??? not really that simple is it? plenty of other disagree with what you "make as your own".
but the theory flies easier with out the pesky accusation of following men, it is the same trick tho, just as slimy.
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Ham
Just a thought..who wants to walk a straight line anyway, or a line defined by someone else? You can goad an ox into walking a straight line.. you can put blinders on a horse so it is not distracted..
But people? What possible reason would a person want to induce others to walk a straight path, in a guise that it was the "word", unless it was in the one who induces best interests?
I never got any REAL reward for making sure the chairs were properly strung, the mall properly "witnessed", not to mention the neighborhood..
no real pay to speak of..
The "ministry" however, did see substantial revenue from those who I brought, those who I carefully "guided" into it's "hallowed" grounds..
I feel like I was no better than an ox, or horse.
Sounds like fun. Put the yoke back on my neck, bit back in my mouth.. I don't mind the blinders..
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Ham
No reward of any kind for sorting through miles and bundles of phone wire at new branch guy's house, for his BUSINESS- saved HIM about three hundred or so bucks though..
no reward, for hauling stereo and video equipment all over God's creation..
no reward, for cleaning, etc. etc. for classes, fellowships..
no reward, or even a thank you, for helping the last three sycophants move trucks of crap, when they moved in and out of the area..
the last meeting I had with leadership, "we KNOW there is something wrong with you, you'd better spill your guts.."
I finally figured out what my "problem" was, I was serving a group a lunatics, and a corrupt organization.
An organization would have to jump through some pretty high hoops before I'd even remotely consider doing a quarter of what I did..
Don't get me wrong.. everything I did, I thought I was doing for God.. "blessed" at the time. Just rather disappointed that all the labor ended up being absorbed by a stinking corrupt organization.
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What The Hey
Hebrews 6:9,10.
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Deciderator
Waysider, there you go again, addressing something I did not say.
You do this a lot?
Pond: same response. You are pretending I said something I did not.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you get as offended as I do when people falsely accuse you of saying and believing certain things.
Rascal, if indeed they did those things it was NOT ok.
Our taxes finance something in this country called the "criminal justice system."
You may have heard of it. Over 2 million Americans reside in things called "jails" or "prisons" because they have been convicted of crimes like those listed above.
This "criminal justice system" has been developing for hundreds of years and over that time there have arisen certain procedures and protections to try to insure the guilty are dealt with properly and the innocent are not wrongly punished.
In America, there is something called the "presumption of innocence." In the legal system where we deal with crimes like rape, assault, etc a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. An accusation, no matter how horrid, is just that, an accusation. Even when there is much evidence and many eyewitnesses, a person is still presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. No matter how heinous the crime, the accused has a right to confront the accuser and to cross examine witnesses, present exculpatory evidence, etc.
Maybe you heard of a case recently at Duke University where some blokes on the lacrosse team were accused of rape. Initially, a lot of people thought them guilty.
A lot of people thought Byron Halsey was guilty, too.
In 1985 Halsey was living with a woman whose 7 year-old girl was raped and strangled and her 8 year-old brother was killed by four nails hammered into his head. Their bodies were found in the basement of the home Halsey shared with the mother. A neighbor, Cliff Hall, testified against Halsey and in 1988 a jury found him guilty. He narrowly escaped the death penalty and last May was released from prison after DNA evidence exonerated him and implicated Hall.
Take the time to look up The Innocence Project and you will find they have been able to get something like over 100 people off of death row who were wrongly convicted of capital crimes.
Accusations must be taken seriously, especially those you mentioned. But keep in mind an accusation and presentation of evidence is only a small part of a system to determine guilt or innocence. There have been many, many cases where a seemingly open-and-shut case against someone turned out to be wrong.
In Spotsylvania County, Virginia there was the case of the Lisk sisters who were raped and murdered. They were last seen getting into a white van. Fibers were found on their bodies. Investigators had a profile of the sort of person who might fit this crime. Sure enough, down the street lived a loner-type loser who fit the profile. He had a white van and was thought of as being kinda creepy. He moved away right after the crimes. He had a history of petty crimes. Captured in Florida, a blanket he had owned in Virginia was seized in his van and forensic technicians at the state crime lab matched it to threads found on the bodies. He had no alibi on the date of the crimes. The whole community "knew" he was guilty and was ready to lynch him.
Fortunately, his lawyer thought to challenge the alleged "perfect match" of the fibers and sent them to the FBI crime lab. The results showed there was no resemblance at all betweeen the fibers from the bodies and those from the blanket in the van. If you saw the pictures in the paper of the comparisons, you would be shocked that sane, expert technicians would make such a connection.
But they did and an innocent man could have been executed by the state on the basis of their testimony.
I am not proclaiming anyone innocent or guilty.
I am saying that seemingly overwhelming evidence can cause a rush to judgement which results in the conviction of the innocent.
It happens more frequently that we would like and so what we must do is adhere to the system we have developed.
Abandoning that system puts us on the path to disaster.
But rascal, I do like when you call me "dear." You mind if I call you "honey?" I'm a Southerner and I say it reeeeal nice.....
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Deciderator
Thanks, Johnny.
Well said, sir.
You too, oldiesman.
Instead of pretending to read something I did not write, you took me at my own word.
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Ham
For the record, loy admitted it, rosie admitted under oath that she knew of his "preclivities" of demanding sex from PAID (?) EMPLOYEES.
When one husband started making noise.. no turning back for der bot.. it was a mark and avoid sentence..
all this is a matter of record.
The judge in the case ruled that the case deserved jury trial.. that there was substantial evidence of not just abuse, but a PATTERN of it..
I bet the settlement cost them dearly..
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What The Hey
Why should anyone go back and read through all that malarky? I guess there probably are some people who do though - people who want other people to make up their minds for them. Some people don't mind, and as the old saying goes, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Since when does somebody else's "actual errors in PFAL" thread and their skewed viewpoint and bias about PFAL have more authority than what is actually in PFAL itself?
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Ham
Oh yeah.. I guess that makes it true that every woman in the kindgom belongs to da king (everything else, for that matter..)
I guess loy wasn't such a bad guy..
just taking what was "his"..
I could see him in front of the judge.. no matter how many tranquilizers and anti-depressants..
"Gee Judge.. da BIBLE said I could.."
no wonder they settled..
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pond
you use to many words Diciderator.
you read like a pompous foot at times too.
so wha?t your posts claim long storys about nothing to do with anything . stay on topic if you want to make sense and not be so boring most just give up.
the word? What freaking WORD are you talking about hmm? the bible verses is that it is that your word and nothing but? or is it pfal class? the bible has a million teachers and spinners and if your so stuck it must be pfal or death then how are you not making it an IDOL just like you claim you would never have for a man? same difference.
is this simple enough for ya? you do not need to write what most humans know already we are not three years old waiting to be told the truth of life or the way ministry by YOU .
so ya read the newspaper or some internet blog about an injustice and you have met great people you admire but do not make in an idol, big deal so long and boring it was for me the POINT IS man what the hell are you talking about when you say
it is nothing but the word?
what word? vpw was speaking about his class he meant his work his teachings, NOW i do not want to assume you mean the same so answer it already will ya?
instead of accusing people of being wrong about you use simple answers about what we are talking about instead of your boring lengthy education seminars on life .
you can answer to johnny but your posts are not as boring.
Darth varder
the difference is just that a different view , both claim to be research and study of the holy bible and you ask a good question
what is the difference one had a group of cult people blindly falling into a mind set that didnt allow them to know or think any different and the the other is not.
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