Bumpy - I got to admit, I just don't get you at all. A few months back you "outed" the murder in Oslo and chided a bunch of folks for not knowing about it because TWI was able to hide what happened in another country across the ocean.
Then you post for people to come visit you in various areas of the world - some of them you later describe as not so nice.
Then you tell folks to get a life.
Like I said - I just don't get you at all.
Let's take think a minute...
VPW presented himself as a minister for God, Jesus Christ, the Word, and truth.
He garnered respect with a class that he stole.
He spoke about the "Greatness of God's matchless Word" in public, yet he chose to pick and chose what he himself would abide by.
He amassed land and money and power in the name of God and used, and discarded those who were "faithful." In the end, he discarded everyone that claimed loyalty to him - POP was the first major blow to the dismantling of TWI. It was almost as if VPW said to himself, "Well, if I can't take it with me and LCM is putting me out to pasture, I'm making sure no one else gets to have what I had."
He used his self-proclaimed "holiness" to win the trust of many people - some of them women who he drugged and raped.
How many women? Let's say 10. (In my estimation, this number is way too small - but I making a point here.) Too few for you? "They don't count," you say? Amongst the thousands of "believers" in TWI at it's height - ten women doesn't seem like much.
BUT - to EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE TEN WOMEN a piece of their soul got ripped from them. (OH - and aren't Christian ministers supposed to be leading people to salvation and not soul-suicide?) You may want to say they don't matter - but I dare you to try to prove that to me from scripture.
You were lamenting the murder of ONE man in Oslo. Remember how you felt when you were treated like you were making that story up? Just how do you think these women feel when they are told that they aren't credible, verifyable, believable...?
It didnt' stop there. Other ministers DID learn the ways of VPW very well.
Like I said - I just don't get you at all, "Bump."
Thanks also Dooj...& Rascal ”I guess I don’t get you at all” ! It was such a succinct and right on “off topic” observation! Which had so much to do with my posting to Graucho! I mean really, is this a children’s show and everyone can play?? It’s incredible really, after 20+ years that you (grown up?) Ladies can hold that godly torch for all those (how many?) that fell in twi, can keep these threads of way abuse so alive and well. I’m totally impressed even though “you may say they don’t matter...the # is way to small, their souls RIPPED from them & prove that from scripture!” Ladies, wherever you are on the planet, Africa definitely need YOU to show them how much you have suffered! I mean you really set the standards for mental and social impoverishment.
And to think it all started with “innocent” young girls wanting to “Do The Word”! How quaint! <_<
Have any of you read another spot`s thread about spiritual abuse/taking the lords name in vain?? It is an eye opener, and I think has a lot of bearing on the difficulties encountered in understanding one another on this thread.
Your are absolutely correct Rascal, but I seriously doubt if it will make much of a difference to some people. That is assuming (yes, I know about "assuming") that they read it in the first place. But it is a great thread, and I personally have learned loads from Another Spot and Catcup who started the other two threads.
Thanks also Dooj...& Rascal ”I guess I don’t get you at all” ! It was such a succinct and right on “off topic” observation! Which had so much to do with my posting to Graucho! I mean really, is this a children’s show and everyone can play?? It’s incredible really, after 20+ years that you (grown up?) Ladies can hold that godly torch for all those (how many?) that fell in twi, can keep these threads of way abuse so alive and well. I’m totally impressed even though “you may say they don’t matter...the # is way to small, their souls RIPPED from them & prove that from scripture!” Ladies, wherever you are on the planet, Africa definitely need YOU to show them how much you have suffered! I mean you really set the standards for mental and social impoverishment.
And to think it all started with “innocent” young girls wanting to “Do The Word”! How quaint! <_<
Wow! Bumpy, I find it hard to imagine that you are actually as callous as this post makes you appear. Please tell me that you are exaggerating to make a point.
Thanks also Dooj...& Rascal ”I guess I don’t get you at all” ! It was such a succinct and right on “off topic” observation! Which had so much to do with my posting to Graucho! I mean really, is this a children’s show and everyone can play?? It’s incredible really, after 20+ years that you (grown up?) Ladies can hold that godly torch for all those (how many?) that fell in twi, can keep these threads of way abuse so alive and well. I’m totally impressed even though “you may say they don’t matter...the # is way to small, their souls RIPPED from them & prove that from scripture!” Ladies, wherever you are on the planet, Africa definitely need YOU to show them how much you have suffered! I mean you really set the standards for mental and social impoverishment.
And to think it all started with “innocent” young girls wanting to “Do The Word”! How quaint! <_<
Once again - I fail to see why you insist on this line of thinking.
I have not once - NOT ONCE! - ever said that the plight of the women in Africa is something that is to be played down.
I am not mentally or socially impoverished - and I dare you to prove otherwise.
You may have posted to Groucho - but we all read it. What you said is no less cause for "head scratching" just because you didn't address me or Rascal.
Oh and YOU were still pretty upset about that murder in Oslo...
Bump, you appear to be sarcastic and mean, you treat all of us and this web sight like we are some big joke all arranged for your personal entertainment over morning tea......
Your comments all seem designed to hurt and inflame. I don`t understand why you would do this to people.
I don`t understand the chip on your shoulder...but it appears to go beyond doctrinal pov... shrug..your problem I guess....but your unpleasant observations certainly detract from your credibility.
Ladies! I’m really not related to VP & The Devil! I am sad for all who suffered, including the TWO in Norway. I am sad for all your bad experiences and memories! I regret any little word which might have upset you. I am sad the market is getting hammered today! I am sad my African’s always need $$ and I am the bank. I am glad for the rain that is falling here, so please don’t be mad! Bump
I would like to think that the majority of the leaders had that mindset, and that the ones who were in it for personal gain were in the minority.
Yes, the organisation may have crumbled, but the men and women whose stand was based on the firm rock of Jesus Christ, not loyalty to an organisation have not crumbled, but still stand strong on the Word (Bible), nor has the foundation beneath their feet shifted at all.
Oh, jeez, I did it AGAIN. Still Jean, sorry.
Herein lies the problem. For too many people, the "firm Rock of Jesus Christ" WAS their loyalty to an organization. For others still - what they believed was a firm Rock was in fact a huge pile of pebbles glued together by a few Foundational principals and a series of classes.
In my opinion, all the foundation that was laid by TWI had to be re-built, in each heart and mind.
It was built on study and not worship.
It was built on looking to the ministers instead of the Christ.
It was built on the MOG and not God Himself.
As many folks turned to worship, prayer, Christ, and God - they found the foundation they had sought. Many folks found themselves going back to the beginning of their journey - that being to seek God and His will.
Of course, here we are debating how many folks did it "Jean's way" and how many did it "Dooj's way." I'd be thankful for anyone that has Jesus Christ as their Rock and foundation - regardless of how they came to be there.
As many folks turned to worship, prayer, Christ, and God - they found the foundation they had sought. Many folks found themselves going back to the beginning of their journey - that being to seek God and His will.
Of course, here we are debating how many folks did it "Jean's way" and how many did it "Dooj's way." I'd be thankful for anyone that has Jesus Christ as their Rock and foundation - regardless of how they came to be there.
That's a valid point. I've listened to several teachings (sermons) recently on the manifold wisdom of God. The word 'manifold' reminds me a little of the term 'many folded', which seems to me to suggest that there can be many meanings in a verse of scripture, and all of them are valid. Just a thought...
Mark Harris - "For the First Time" - this song seems to be the perfect approach to a "post-TWI' life:I know - This isn't the "Music Lovers" thread - so slap me...
The late Ron Luciano, former big league umpire, once explained how a player or mamager's survival in a game can depend on the personal neature of the argument. Tha is, someone might get away with saying he made a horse**** call, but if they call him horse***, they're outta there.
Herein lies the problem. For too many people, the "firm Rock of Jesus Christ" WAS their loyalty to an organization. For others still - what they believed was a firm Rock was in fact a huge pile of pebbles glued together by a few Foundational principals and a series of classes.
In my opinion, all the foundation that was laid by TWI had to be re-built, in each heart and mind.
It was built on study and not worship.
It was built on looking to the ministers instead of the Christ.
It was built on the MOG and not God Himself.
As many folks turned to worship, prayer, Christ, and God - they found the foundation they had sought. Many folks found themselves going back to the beginning of their journey - that being to seek God and His will.
Of course, here we are debating how many folks did it "Jean's way" and how many did it "Dooj's way." I'd be thankful for anyone that has Jesus Christ as their Rock and foundation - regardless of how they came to be there.
Graucho, one of the fallacies of your arguments is that you set up your own patterns of support logic and then apply an example, attach it to what another person might have said, and then shoot it down. It’s an old debating technique we used in boarding school, but not really very effective.
This issue of drugging and molesting young females appears to have grown into such a large subject recently, that it is difficult for me not to imagine it ever being hidden from plain sight. I envision all these poor young waifs being attacked in secret, led into the old man’s coach never to be seen again. And not only one mog, but lots of them! It almost appears as an orgy of activity rather than a place of higher learning. <_<
And yet you use that and plagiarism as a pretext as to why you were blinded from the truth? Come on Grouch, certainly you can do better than that?? People get ripped off in the stock market everyday, but we’re talking here about god, Jesus & religion...and a CULT called The Way!
Remember what your friends said, your family, people who were close to you. That little small voice that would call out to you...Auntie Emm, Auntie Emm...come home, all those nights in Kansas. I mean REALLY Graucho, Kansas of all places!!
That's always been one of my problems...my old fashioned debating techniques. :( busted again.
I don't know Bump...maybe it's just me but when I look at the overall picture, I start seeing a pattern of a guy that was playing it for all it was worth...You don't actually defend the old poobah, do you?
That's always been one of my problems...my old fashioned debating techniques. :( busted again.
I don't know Bump...maybe it's just me but when I look at the overall picture, I start seeing a pattern of a guy that was playing it for all it was worth...You don't actually defend the old poobah, do you?
No Graucho, I would never defend any institution, especially in the field of religion, which takes young kids, their hearts, minds, energies, etc.,...and in the end their lives, for the explicit purpose of exploitation. I thought Dr. Viper had made that clear?
Again, it was a BUSINESS in constant development. And from my time in the mid ‘70’s and maybe yours, it was seen I think in a more innocent, trusting youthful light? We are all older and wiser now, right?
On numerous occasions I have tried without much success to suggest that it might be a good idea to somehow, eventually, move on...to maybe another level? However that may be impossible due to the internet and how threads seem to get stuck in all this past. How much good it really does I guess is up to the individual. <_<
However, given a brave new world set of circumstances which may be facing the planet during our life time, we may one day need a body of “like minded” believers to help us in times of trouble.
In my opinion, one of the most beneficial functions of the mind - reflection - was discouraged in PFAL and of course in TWI. There’s something about the mindset of PFAL that gets people to sever their connection with reality – TWI folks don’t like to dwell on the past…thoughts that tend toward introspection are suppressed.
What is the practical consequence of such a mindset? It doesn’t see any relation between past thoughts/actions and current conditions. Adrift toward some future – awash in confusing details of past and present…It is shallow thinking – incapable of mining personal history for self-improvement, for lessons learned, for understanding how we got where we are now, the direction we’re likely to head, and what adjustments we need to make in our course heading. It breeds impatience – demanding that those who reflect should move on. The attitude is also tinged with arrogance – assuming people who review experiences have such a lowly status and recommend they move on to another level.
To avoid reflection is to stymie healing, growth, understanding, character development.
However, given a brave new world set of circumstances which may be facing the planet during our life time, we may one day need a body of “like minded” believers to help us in times of trouble.
Unfortunately, I don't think there is any real kind of mitigation for these times you speak of.
People don't really have a clue..
The kinds of agreements and compromises to be made.. not to mention intimacy required- I don't think people can voluntarily submit themselves unless the circumstances really demand it of them.
Regarding impolite disagreement, I have found that I find it easier to be rude to the people who I have never met and have no outside contact with. With posters whom I knew before GS, or whom I have met at Weenie Roasts or in my travels I find myself making more of an effort to be patient with when I have a difference of opinion. I like to think that most of the time I am making an effort to be respectful of other people.
Even considering all of that, a discussion forum is still a different atmosphere than a Sunday dinner at someone's house. Topics are started and opinions expressed for what reason? Supposedly to engage others in debate and discussion. Of course there are exceptions to that. It would be inappropriate for me to post my opinions about prayer on a prayer thread in the prayer forum, but it would be appropriate for me to exprress my opinion about it in a thread about the efficacy of prayer. It would be inappropriate for me to start debating whether the dead were alive after death on a memorium thread, but not in a doctrinal thread about death and the afterlife.
There are many here with some very strong opinions about our time in TWI, why think that some strong statements aren't going to provoke some of the others here?
Regarding the worth and value of PFAL specifically and TWI's teachings in general, I am not so stubborn that I won't admit that I heard things taught that made sense while I was in TWI, and there were surely things that lined up with the bible, and there were times when I was around some good people, and even had some experiences that I could choose to chalk up to divine intervention.
However...
I don't see the PFAL class as anything special. Oh I did at one time, but in hindsight it was not what it claimed to be. It claimed to be the work of a man who had received a promise from God to be taught (by God) "the Word" since it hadn't been known for almost two millenia if he would teach it to others. In my opinion it was nothing of the sort, but a motley collection of material, some plagiarized, some original, and some reworked from other sources. His conclusions betrayed, not a devotion to biblical "accuracy", but often a woeful lack of understanding of what his sources were saying, a virtual absence of logic and common sense, nad a devotion rather to push his own agenda, his own views, no matter what the bible actually said.
The class was full of made-up definitions, analogies and illustrations that he pulled out of the air, references to "old documents" that no one else had access to and declarations that had no scriptural or any other kind of backup.
Another poster wrote of mining gems out of all the rubble, as if these supposed gems were worth all the trouble. To take the analogy futher, the gems were setting out in the open for all to see and claim while we were sifting through the rubble! the problem with using PFAL as any kind of source is that there is all that rubble to go through. All of that dirty bathwater to get through
When "working the Word", how easy is it to rely on an incorrect Wierwille definition, or accept an unsupported Wierwille conclusion when "working" a verse or a section of scripture? That's why some of us have thrown it all out and started over, not because we necessarily thought everything was wrong, but because it is not worth the time to separate out all the garabage, all the lies, all the little things that can get you going down a blind alley. That's what I'm talking about when I use the term "Waybrained". It's an unconscious use of Wierwillisms or PFAL jargon without thinking. Like making a point in an argument by quoting PFAL, especially when the quote is demonstrably wrong.
Again, this doesn't mean that PFAL is all wrong, or even mostly wrong. Just that it's a rat's nest of error and that it makes little sense to use it as a source
T Bone...THAT is an amazing thought. I think that needs to be a thread all by itself. Will you start ??If not may I??
Go with it, Rascal... I'm at work right now - and will definitely contribute to it - I would like some more think time and mull over other contributions too. Geez, this is a fun place!
40 years removed from its pfal filming ---- "It's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" ---- this cliche has been butchered hundreds of times AND leveraged against believers to refrain from independent study/research and....dadgummit, just re-research pfal.
So........as things evolved, IT REALLY WASN'T The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word...in its slight-of-hand reference, it really meant..."It's PFAL, PFAL and nothing but PFAL."
This is the best synopsis that I have ever read on the subject. I had never really broke it down like this to see why that line never really had much of an impact on me. It always seemed like it should have. I suppose had it been meant for what it appeared to be intended for it might have had more meaning for me.
What it is, in fact is a sleight-of-hand method to avoid the point.
Some people do this when they are met with something beyond their ability to handle.
They change the point they are addressing, address the phony argument they invented, and pretend they were addrressing the point all along.
It's called "erecting a straw man."
It requires a certain amount of self-delusion.
In this case, skyrider avoids addressing the concept of having God's Word as his only source for faith and practice.
We can speculate why, but it is better for skyrider to tell us in his own words upon what foundation is his own personal theology (if he has one) based.
What it is, in fact is a sleight-of-hand method to avoid the point.
Some people do this when they are met with something beyond their ability to handle.
They change the point they are addressing, address the phony argument they invented, and pretend they were addrressing the point all along.
It's called "erecting a straw man."
It requires a certain amount of self-delusion.
In this case, skyrider avoids addressing the concept of having God's Word as his only source for faith and practice.
We can speculate why, but it is better for skyrider to tell us in his own words upon what foundation is his own personal theology (if he has one) based.
At risk of being accused of being your personal cheerleader ;) -- You're good! (I couldn't agree with you more).
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Bumpy
Thanks also Dooj...& Rascal ”I guess I don’t get you at all” ! It was such a succinct and right on “off topic” observation! Which had so much to do with my posting to Graucho! I mean really, is this a children’s show and everyone can play?? It’s incredible really, after 20+ years that you (grown up?) Ladies can hold that godly torch for all those (how many?) that fell in twi, can keep these threads of way abuse so alive and well. I’m totally impressed even though “you may say they don’t matter...the # is way to small, their souls RIPPED from them & prove that from scripture!” Ladies, wherever you are on the planet, Africa definitely need YOU to show them how much you have suffered! I mean you really set the standards for mental and social impoverishment.
And to think it all started with “innocent” young girls wanting to “Do The Word”! How quaint! <_<
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Eyesopen
Your are absolutely correct Rascal, but I seriously doubt if it will make much of a difference to some people. That is assuming (yes, I know about "assuming") that they read it in the first place. But it is a great thread, and I personally have learned loads from Another Spot and Catcup who started the other two threads.
Wow! Bumpy, I find it hard to imagine that you are actually as callous as this post makes you appear. Please tell me that you are exaggerating to make a point.
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doojable
Once again - I fail to see why you insist on this line of thinking.
I have not once - NOT ONCE! - ever said that the plight of the women in Africa is something that is to be played down.
I am not mentally or socially impoverished - and I dare you to prove otherwise.
You may have posted to Groucho - but we all read it. What you said is no less cause for "head scratching" just because you didn't address me or Rascal.
Oh and YOU were still pretty upset about that murder in Oslo...
I'm no child - I assure you...
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rascal
Bump, you appear to be sarcastic and mean, you treat all of us and this web sight like we are some big joke all arranged for your personal entertainment over morning tea......
Your comments all seem designed to hurt and inflame. I don`t understand why you would do this to people.
I don`t understand the chip on your shoulder...but it appears to go beyond doctrinal pov... shrug..your problem I guess....but your unpleasant observations certainly detract from your credibility.
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Bumpy
Ladies! I’m really not related to VP & The Devil! I am sad for all who suffered, including the TWO in Norway. I am sad for all your bad experiences and memories! I regret any little word which might have upset you. I am sad the market is getting hammered today! I am sad my African’s always need $$ and I am the bank. I am glad for the rain that is falling here, so please don’t be mad! Bump
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rascal
Not mad...just bewildered at the treatment...shrug
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doojable
Herein lies the problem. For too many people, the "firm Rock of Jesus Christ" WAS their loyalty to an organization. For others still - what they believed was a firm Rock was in fact a huge pile of pebbles glued together by a few Foundational principals and a series of classes.
In my opinion, all the foundation that was laid by TWI had to be re-built, in each heart and mind.
It was built on study and not worship.
It was built on looking to the ministers instead of the Christ.
It was built on the MOG and not God Himself.
As many folks turned to worship, prayer, Christ, and God - they found the foundation they had sought. Many folks found themselves going back to the beginning of their journey - that being to seek God and His will.
Of course, here we are debating how many folks did it "Jean's way" and how many did it "Dooj's way." I'd be thankful for anyone that has Jesus Christ as their Rock and foundation - regardless of how they came to be there.
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Jeaniam
That's a valid point. I've listened to several teachings (sermons) recently on the manifold wisdom of God. The word 'manifold' reminds me a little of the term 'many folded', which seems to me to suggest that there can be many meanings in a verse of scripture, and all of them are valid. Just a thought...
Hey, I remembered this time!!!
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doojable
Mark Harris - "For the First Time" - this song seems to be the perfect approach to a "post-TWI' life:I know - This isn't the "Music Lovers" thread - so slap me...
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WordWolf
Robert's Rules of Order, and other rules of Parliamentary Procedure, were designed for such.
We call it, at the GSC, "disagreeing without being disagreeable", in action.
If you ever read through a book on Robert's Rules, you might see something in the Introduction that answers
the very question you raised-
you debate the ISSUE, not the PERSON.
Most of the people here I disagree with most strongly are (as I consider them) my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Whether or not the are, as a Christian, it is worth reminding MYSELF if no one else that strong disagreement does not
mean they are any less valuable as a person.
When I was in college, I posted a photocopy of part of an ad, and taped it to a partition in the Intervarsity Christian office.
(I found it in an issue of Christianity Today, and I wish I still had the thing.)
The copy read
"Even when Christians disagree, they should all share the same position."
The photo was of a man kneeling in prayer.
It was left up for a long time, since it quite succinctly articulated something all of us needed to see, sometimes often.
Ok, when that happens, that's getting into the person him/herself.
(Me, I save those for truly rare occasions, and truly outstanding posts. I don't think I've done that in 2007 yet.)
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Lifted Up
The late Ron Luciano, former big league umpire, once explained how a player or mamager's survival in a game can depend on the personal neature of the argument. Tha is, someone might get away with saying he made a horse**** call, but if they call him horse***, they're outta there.
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T-Bone
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doojable
Awwww shucks!
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GrouchoMarxJr
That's always been one of my problems...my old fashioned debating techniques. :( busted again.
I don't know Bump...maybe it's just me but when I look at the overall picture, I start seeing a pattern of a guy that was playing it for all it was worth...You don't actually defend the old poobah, do you?
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Bumpy
No Graucho, I would never defend any institution, especially in the field of religion, which takes young kids, their hearts, minds, energies, etc.,...and in the end their lives, for the explicit purpose of exploitation. I thought Dr. Viper had made that clear?
Again, it was a BUSINESS in constant development. And from my time in the mid ‘70’s and maybe yours, it was seen I think in a more innocent, trusting youthful light? We are all older and wiser now, right?
On numerous occasions I have tried without much success to suggest that it might be a good idea to somehow, eventually, move on...to maybe another level? However that may be impossible due to the internet and how threads seem to get stuck in all this past. How much good it really does I guess is up to the individual. <_<
However, given a brave new world set of circumstances which may be facing the planet during our life time, we may one day need a body of “like minded” believers to help us in times of trouble.
Let the debate continue...
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T-Bone
In my opinion, one of the most beneficial functions of the mind - reflection - was discouraged in PFAL and of course in TWI. There’s something about the mindset of PFAL that gets people to sever their connection with reality – TWI folks don’t like to dwell on the past…thoughts that tend toward introspection are suppressed.
What is the practical consequence of such a mindset? It doesn’t see any relation between past thoughts/actions and current conditions. Adrift toward some future – awash in confusing details of past and present…It is shallow thinking – incapable of mining personal history for self-improvement, for lessons learned, for understanding how we got where we are now, the direction we’re likely to head, and what adjustments we need to make in our course heading. It breeds impatience – demanding that those who reflect should move on. The attitude is also tinged with arrogance – assuming people who review experiences have such a lowly status and recommend they move on to another level.
To avoid reflection is to stymie healing, growth, understanding, character development.
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Ham
Unfortunately, I don't think there is any real kind of mitigation for these times you speak of.
People don't really have a clue..
The kinds of agreements and compromises to be made.. not to mention intimacy required- I don't think people can voluntarily submit themselves unless the circumstances really demand it of them.
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another spot
That was pretty profound T-bone!!! Really hit the nail on the head for me this morning.
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doojable
Nicely done, T-Bone!
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rascal
T Bone...THAT is an amazing thought. I think that needs to be a thread all by itself. Will you start ??If not may I??
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Oakspear
Regarding impolite disagreement, I have found that I find it easier to be rude to the people who I have never met and have no outside contact with. With posters whom I knew before GS, or whom I have met at Weenie Roasts or in my travels I find myself making more of an effort to be patient with when I have a difference of opinion. I like to think that most of the time I am making an effort to be respectful of other people.
Even considering all of that, a discussion forum is still a different atmosphere than a Sunday dinner at someone's house. Topics are started and opinions expressed for what reason? Supposedly to engage others in debate and discussion. Of course there are exceptions to that. It would be inappropriate for me to post my opinions about prayer on a prayer thread in the prayer forum, but it would be appropriate for me to exprress my opinion about it in a thread about the efficacy of prayer. It would be inappropriate for me to start debating whether the dead were alive after death on a memorium thread, but not in a doctrinal thread about death and the afterlife.
There are many here with some very strong opinions about our time in TWI, why think that some strong statements aren't going to provoke some of the others here?
Regarding the worth and value of PFAL specifically and TWI's teachings in general, I am not so stubborn that I won't admit that I heard things taught that made sense while I was in TWI, and there were surely things that lined up with the bible, and there were times when I was around some good people, and even had some experiences that I could choose to chalk up to divine intervention.
However...
I don't see the PFAL class as anything special. Oh I did at one time, but in hindsight it was not what it claimed to be. It claimed to be the work of a man who had received a promise from God to be taught (by God) "the Word" since it hadn't been known for almost two millenia if he would teach it to others. In my opinion it was nothing of the sort, but a motley collection of material, some plagiarized, some original, and some reworked from other sources. His conclusions betrayed, not a devotion to biblical "accuracy", but often a woeful lack of understanding of what his sources were saying, a virtual absence of logic and common sense, nad a devotion rather to push his own agenda, his own views, no matter what the bible actually said.
The class was full of made-up definitions, analogies and illustrations that he pulled out of the air, references to "old documents" that no one else had access to and declarations that had no scriptural or any other kind of backup.
Another poster wrote of mining gems out of all the rubble, as if these supposed gems were worth all the trouble. To take the analogy futher, the gems were setting out in the open for all to see and claim while we were sifting through the rubble! the problem with using PFAL as any kind of source is that there is all that rubble to go through. All of that dirty bathwater to get through
When "working the Word", how easy is it to rely on an incorrect Wierwille definition, or accept an unsupported Wierwille conclusion when "working" a verse or a section of scripture? That's why some of us have thrown it all out and started over, not because we necessarily thought everything was wrong, but because it is not worth the time to separate out all the garabage, all the lies, all the little things that can get you going down a blind alley. That's what I'm talking about when I use the term "Waybrained". It's an unconscious use of Wierwillisms or PFAL jargon without thinking. Like making a point in an argument by quoting PFAL, especially when the quote is demonstrably wrong.
Again, this doesn't mean that PFAL is all wrong, or even mostly wrong. Just that it's a rat's nest of error and that it makes little sense to use it as a source
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T-Bone
Go with it, Rascal... I'm at work right now - and will definitely contribute to it - I would like some more think time and mull over other contributions too. Geez, this is a fun place!
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Deciderator
What it is, in fact is a sleight-of-hand method to avoid the point.
Some people do this when they are met with something beyond their ability to handle.
They change the point they are addressing, address the phony argument they invented, and pretend they were addrressing the point all along.
It's called "erecting a straw man."
It requires a certain amount of self-delusion.
In this case, skyrider avoids addressing the concept of having God's Word as his only source for faith and practice.
We can speculate why, but it is better for skyrider to tell us in his own words upon what foundation is his own personal theology (if he has one) based.
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Larry N Moore
At risk of being accused of being your personal cheerleader ;) -- You're good! (I couldn't agree with you more).
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