A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL

[Oakspear]

Here's a little "gem" I mined from eBay.

(and no Larry, I"m an agnostic, never claimed to be an athiest)

My mistake then. However I could make a case that there's really very little difference between the two -- I could but, I won't. ;)

In which case, your "case" would be in error

Edited August 9, 2007 by Oakspear

[Oakspear]

But when viewed in the light that the mission of the GSC is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about the Way International and it's trustees, with no purpose stated on how that information is to be used, the rules of the "playing field" are a bit ambiguous.

Folks can use the information any way that they please. EWhy would pawtucket want to even try to dictate that?

It would appear I am on the wrong “playground” and, unless I wish to keep silent on the subject, I should expect to be bullied rather than treated with civility. And if civility is not extended, the message is “pack your toys and go home”.

I guess if I’m to continue here, I’d better go sit on the bleachers in the “Visitors Section”. There I can cheer for my team, as well as say, “Man, what a pretty play! Sure wish our team had made it! Can’t help myself from applauding that player even if he is on the opposing team."

While accepting that some posters cross the line on occassion (some more occassionally than others ) I must ask - "What do you expect?" This is a forum for discussion. No one is expecting you to pretend that you believe something other than what you do. But to think that your opinions will be given a pass is not being realistic.

I prefer being in an environment where an attempt is made to value everyone and enjoy the diversity, versus one of prejudice and intolerance. And sometimes it feels exactly like that around here.

Value everyone? Sure value everything? No. If your opinions are such that they support what many here are passionately against, then they will be spoken against. Prejudice? Is it prejudiced to speak against something that your experience has shown you is harmful?

Perhaps I’m just a “sissy” and not capable of playing with the “big boys”.

You said it. But perhaps you're not capable of playing in this particular playground.

Suda (not trying to whine, just clearly express myself)

and for that, I thank you.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

It is my impression that some claim to be shocked, shocked! at what is alleged to have taken place and dadgummit they are going to form a posse and go hang the bad guys!, but in fact they are using that as a pretext to attack others.

It is MY impression that some claim to be "blessed" at what is alleged to have taken place and are determined to defend their "father in the word" by attacking those who speak out against him.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Notice how when people say what things they took from PFAL, most, if not all of the time no one addresses what the person says was beneficial to them?

No, the attack is on the person and on TWI, VP, etc. in general.

Notice how when people expose the errors, the sexual abuse and the deceit, most, if not all the time the Wierwille apologists do not address those issues but only what "blessed" them?

Rather than address the issues, they attack the person who points them out, calling them "negative"

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Grouch...O!, Are you an old gaucho or a grouchy old guy with a few extra tomatoes standing on the mound looking at signals before delivering your next Ouucho!

13 years is a long prison sentence for sure. But there are others who committed even longer years of servitude, no? Remember, you and all the others still signed on the Dr. Viper line, so there was still “free will” as a part of the deal, right? No one truly was forced to go wow, or corps, or any of the other wonderful programs promoted by the way. Maybe that’s part of the reason for so much bitterness? You have nobody to blame for all that lost time...but yourself! And maybe GS is just a place or the only place, to let it out?? <_<

I’m sitting happily in the bleachers if you want a few peanuts! Bump

Well Bump...that's the problem. Very few people were aware that Wierwille and his henchmen were drugging young girls and sexually molesting them, or that he stole the work of other people and put his name on it...had I known these things, I would have left immediately...that's why I said in an earlier post that he lied in God's name. Yes, I am guilty of putting my trust in this man...and in return for that trust, I was rewarded by deceit and evil. So what is it?...We once again blame the victims of twi for their own abuse?...this seems to be a reoccuring theme here. That young girl had freedom of will when she entered the motorcoach?...I suppose that if a doctor told you that you had a tumor and he needed $50,000 to remove it to save your life and if you found out he was lying to get your money...that would be YOUR fault because you have freedom of will?...sorry, I don't buy it.

[Bumpy]

Graucho, one of the fallacies of your arguments is that you set up your own patterns of support logic and then apply an example, attach it to what another person might have said, and then shoot it down. It’s an old debating technique we used in boarding school, but not really very effective.

This issue of drugging and molesting young females appears to have grown into such a large subject recently, that it is difficult for me not to imagine it ever being hidden from plain sight. I envision all these poor young waifs being attacked in secret, led into the old man’s coach never to be seen again. And not only one mog, but lots of them! It almost appears as an orgy of activity rather than a place of higher learning. <_<

And yet you use that and plagiarism as a pretext as to why you were blinded from the truth? Come on Grouch, certainly you can do better than that?? People get ripped off in the stock market everyday, but we’re talking here about god, Jesus & religion...and a CULT called The Way!

Remember what your friends said, your family, people who were close to you. That little small voice that would call out to you...Auntie Emm, Auntie Emm...come home, all those nights in Kansas. I mean REALLY Graucho, Kansas of all places!!

[doojable]

Bumpy - I got to admit, I just don't get you at all. A few months back you "outed" the murder in Oslo and chided a bunch of folks for not knowing about it because TWI was able to hide what happened in another country across the ocean.

Then you post for people to come visit you in various areas of the world - some of them you later describe as not so nice.

Then you tell folks to get a life.

Like I said - I just don't get you at all.

Let's take think a minute...

VPW presented himself as a minister for God, Jesus Christ, the Word, and truth.

He garnered respect with a class that he stole.

He spoke about the "Greatness of God's matchless Word" in public, yet he chose to pick and chose what he himself would abide by.

He amassed land and money and power in the name of God and used, and discarded those who were "faithful." In the end, he discarded everyone that claimed loyalty to him - POP was the first major blow to the dismantling of TWI. It was almost as if VPW said to himself, "Well, if I can't take it with me and LCM is putting me out to pasture, I'm making sure no one else gets to have what I had."

He used his self-proclaimed "holiness" to win the trust of many people - some of them women who he drugged and raped.

How many women? Let's say 10. (In my estimation, this number is way too small - but I making a point here.) Too few for you? "They don't count," you say? Amongst the thousands of "believers" in TWI at it's height - ten women doesn't seem like much.

BUT - to EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE TEN WOMEN a piece of their soul got ripped from them. (OH - and aren't Christian ministers supposed to be leading people to salvation and not soul-suicide?) You may want to say they don't matter - but I dare you to try to prove that to me from scripture.

You were lamenting the murder of ONE man in Oslo. Remember how you felt when you were treated like you were making that story up? Just how do you think these women feel when they are told that they aren't credible, verifyable, believable...?

It didnt' stop there. Other ministers DID learn the ways of VPW very well.

Like I said - I just don't get you at all, "Bump."

[johniam]

Well...You state "...all the good that was there", as if this were a fact. Am I not entitled to believe that there was no good there?...or not enough that warrants mentioning it?...

Yes, you are entitled to believe anything you want to, but then I must be entitled to believe there was no evil there...or not enough that warrants mentioning it. But that is not what I believe. I believe there were some people who grasped at power for their own motives, but there were also many people who took literally the verse 'he who would be chief among you shall be the servant of all'.

Oops, forgot again. This is Jean, not John. My bad.

Edited August 9, 2007 by johniam

[doojable]

Yes, you are entitled to believe anything you want to, but then I must be entitled to believe there was no evil there...or not enough that warrants mentioning it. But that is not what I believe. I believe there were some people who grasped at power for their own motives, but there were also many people who took literally the verse 'he who would be chief among you shall be the servant of all'.

Oops, forgot again. This is Jean, not John. My bad.

Jean, I would like to believe that I was one of those "servants of all." I know many of my friends had that mindset.

I can only describe it like this:

TWI (the lies, hypocrisy, and degrading of God's people) was the shifting sand on which the buildings(the love of God and Jesus, the attitude of service and valuing each person as a child of God) of these servants stood. When the sand shifted the foundation strained to hold it together, until it all crumbled.

[T-Bone]

...I would like to believe that I was one of those "servants of all." I know many of my friends had that mindset.

I can only describe it like this:

TWI (the lies, hypocrisy, and degrading of God's people) was the shifting sand on which the buildings(the love of God and Jesus, the attitude of service and valuing each person as a child of God) of these servants stood. When the sand shifted the foundation strained to hold it together, until it all crumbled.

Great mind picture, Dooj ! I like that - and think that's pretty much how it was.

[doojable]

And Jean, sometimes what you read in these posts by folks like me, T-Bone, and others too numerous to mention, is the absolute frustration we felt and sometimes still feel that we couldn't do more for more people.

So I'll lend my voice to those who can't come out of the darkness to speak up. Being Italian, I can talk loud and long (just ask my friends...;) )

Hi T-Bone! Give Tonto a big hug for me!

Edited August 9, 2007 by doojable

[rascal]

PERFECT Analogy Dooj! Brilliant!! :)

[Larry N Moore]

However I could make a case that there's really very little difference between the two -- I could but, I won't.

In which case, your "case" would be in error

:) Well, having gotten it straight from the "horses mouth" who am I to say they're wrong? But then again, I haven't had the pleasure of debating with someone who lacking knowledge of what my case would be is able to tell me beforehand that it would be in error. That's a neat trick I haven't seen before. ;)

Edited August 9, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[Eyesopen]

And Jean, sometimes what you read in these posts by folks like me, T-Bone, and others too numerous to mention, is the absolute frustration we felt and sometimes still feel that we couldn't do more for more people.

So I'll lend my voice to those who can't come out of the darkness to speak up. Being Italian, I can talk loud and long (just ask my friends...;) )

Hi T-Bone! Give Tonto a big hug for me!

Absolutely! Very good point here...

Great analogy in the last post as well.

Oh, and this other thing about you speaking up and being loud and long...well I would not presume to debate you....

[Eyesopen]

40 years removed from its pfal filming ---- "It's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" ---- this cliche has been butchered hundreds of times AND leveraged against believers to refrain from independent study/research and....dadgummit, just re-research pfal.

So........as things evolved, IT REALLY WASN'T The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word...in its slight-of-hand reference, it really meant..."It's PFAL, PFAL and nothing but PFAL."

Add to this the absent-Christ doctrine in twi.........and WIERWILLE WAS SHELVING MUCH OF THE WHOLE TRUTH that true believers are to abide in. Check out the Book of Acts and see if Jesus Christ is absent!!!

This is the best synopsis that I have ever read on the subject. I had never really broke it down like this to see why that line never really had much of an impact on me. It always seemed like it should have. I suppose had it been meant for what it appeared to be intended for it might have had more meaning for me.

[rascal]

Brilliant observation as well skyrider...Thanks for reposting this eyes, as I missed it before.

Bumpy - I got to admit, I just don't get you at all. A few months back you "outed" the murder in Oslo and chided a bunch of folks for not knowing about it because TWI was able to hide what happened in another country across the ocean.

Then you post for people to come visit you in various areas of the world - some of them you later describe as not so nice.

Then you tell folks to get a life.

Like I said - I just don't get you at all.

Let's take think a minute...

VPW presented himself as a minister for God, Jesus Christ, the Word, and truth.

He garnered respect with a class that he stole.

He spoke about the "Greatness of God's matchless Word" in public, yet he chose to pick and chose what he himself would abide by.

He amassed land and money and power in the name of God and used, and discarded those who were "faithful." In the end, he discarded everyone that claimed loyalty to him - POP was the first major blow to the dismantling of TWI. It was almost as if VPW said to himself, "Well, if I can't take it with me and LCM is putting me out to pasture, I'm making sure no one else gets to have what I had."

He used his self-proclaimed "holiness" to win the trust of many people - some of them women who he drugged and raped.

How many women? Let's say 10. (In my estimation, this number is way too small - but I making a point here.) Too few for you? "They don't count," you say? Amongst the thousands of "believers" in TWI at it's height - ten women doesn't seem like much.

BUT - to EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE TEN WOMEN a piece of their soul got ripped from them. (OH - and aren't Christian ministers supposed to be leading people to salvation and not soul-suicide?) You may want to say they don't matter - but I dare you to try to prove that to me from scripture.

You were lamenting the murder of ONE man in Oslo. Remember how you felt when you were treated like you were making that story up? Just how do you think these women feel when they are told that they aren't credible, verifyable, believable...?

It didnt' stop there. Other ministers DID learn the ways of VPW very well.

Like I said - I just don't get you at all, "Bump."

Wow...though posted addressed to Bumpy, I think this succinct synopsis of twi activities and treatment of people is well said. Thanks Dooj

[Ham]

Well, having gotten it straight from the "horses mouth" who am I to say they're wrong?

Squirrel says:

"when getting from horses mouth, make sure you are talking to the correct end of the horse."

[Larry N Moore]

Squirrel says:

"when getting from horses mouth, make sure you are talking to the correct end of the horse."

Hammer, I hear Walmart is having a special on nuts today. You might want to forego your time spent here and get over there real quick like before they're all gone. ;)

[Oakspear]

However I could make a case that there's really very little difference between the two -- I could but, I won't.

:) Well, having gotten it straight from the "horses mouth" who am I to say they're wrong? But then again, I haven't had the pleasure of debating with someone who lacking knowledge of what my case would be is able to tell me beforehand that it would be in error. That's a neat trick I haven't seen before. ;)

Ah, then you haven't heard that I'm omniscient

Since there is a real difference between the two, I feel free to make said judgement.

[Larry N Moore]

Ah, then you haven't heard that I'm omniscient

Since there is a real difference between the two, I feel free to make said judgement.

Well, this atheist would disagree with you. As would many atheists I've had the pleasure of having discussions with on the SecWeb as well as other major atheist's boards. But if you want to insist there's a real difference I'm not going to argue with you. You're just one "voice in the wilderness" and quite possibly the loudest one. :)

[Eyesopen]

a•the•ist [ áythee ist ] (plural a•the•ists)

noun

Definition:

unbeliever in God or deities: somebody who does not believe in God or deities

_______________________________________________________________

ag•nos•tic [ ag nóstik ] (plural ag•nos•tics)

noun

Definition:

1. somebody denying God's existence is provable: somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists

2. somebody denying something is knowable: somebody who doubts that a question has one correct answer or that something can be completely understood

I'm an agnostic concerning space aliens.

[Mid-19th century. <a-2 + gnostic]

ag•nos•tic adjective

ag•nos•ti•cal•ly adverb

Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] © & (P)2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Sorry just had go and look it up for my own understanding and thought that I would share.

[rascal]

Have any of you read another spot`s thread about spiritual abuse/taking the lords name in vain?? It is an eye opener, and I think has a lot of bearing on the difficulties encountered in understanding one another on this thread.

[Oakspear]

...and quite possibly the loudest one. :)

How do you measure volume on a discussion forum

New thread in doctrinal:

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=15046

Edited August 9, 2007 by Oakspear

[Larry N Moore]

Sorry just had go and look it up for my own understanding and thought that I would share.

No need to apologize Eyes. If you've spent as much time as I have debating/having discussions with atheists you would learn that dictionary definitions of the terms, according to many atheists, are rather simple (or simpleton) and are for the most part -- useless.

Now, what was the topic of this thread again? ;)

How do you measure volume on a discussion forum

That's simple. The one who insists they're right even though they haven't heard the other side of the debate. I imagine one would find a picture (in an ency.) of a man/woman who has their fingers stuck in their ears while saying out loud: "I don't hear a word you're saying." ;)

[Oakspear]

Oh, so now you wanna stay on topic

Okay, you can make a case, I reverse my earlier remark...still disagree with it, but it's a valid argument to make...carry on