I guess that what I am saying, and badly, is that in hind sight, pfal doesn`t seem to have been the answere to a relationship with God or a guide to spiritual wholesomeness.
It is scary to me that people think that this knowledge aquired somehow makes one spiritual....when obviously the fruit in so many of our lives and that of our leaders falls in squarely the category *of the flesh*
Genuine Christians simply don`t behave as we were led to believe...but pfal class makes excuses as to why it is acceptable to embrace evil and pretend that one can do so and remain unsullied.
Frankly, I am afraid that this class gives people the illusion of being Christian, but I wonder how many of us are going to one day face Jesus and be told to *depart for I knew you not*
I think that it takes more than just knowledge and formulas to be christian.
Same for me Rascal. Lessee.. in over twenty years involvement..
God and I made it rain once..
I chased a hangover out of a guy once.. he looked AWFUL, and after I prayed he was like a spring chicken..
I've seen more after leaving.
My daughter was healed of a cancer that very very few kids make it through. Somehow, when we got the "news".. I didn't panic.. I just kinda knew she would be ok.. but the healing involved doctors, the supernatural, and the support of the community. Without all three I don't think she would have made it. She definitely would not if we were still with the ministry. at least two out of the three avenues would have been cut off.
It is scary to me that people think that this knowledge aquired somehow makes one spiritual....when obviously the fruit in so many of our lives and that of our leaders falls in squarely the category *of the flesh*
I cannot tell you how many times I had this very conversation with folks while in twi... it isn't just enough to have a knowledge of the scriptures. If you don't understand or practice the heart and intent of them, you are way off base with God.
Exactly guys ...geeze Ham, how wonderfull that your little girl survived. That quiet peace with God is what I am fumbling towards...where you know that he is there...what you described, it is so different than the formulas and confessions and self examination to find out where we blew it and let satan in...mental tally trying to figure out if we tithed enough or is our belief up to snuff...etc
I am NOT trying to crap on anybodies good memories, anybodies results, what I want to say is that even though according to the scriptures that we learned in pfal we are heaven bound an all hell cannot stop us.......if the fruit manifested in our lives or those of our leaders id clearly recognised as someone who is of the flesh and the scriptures state uncatagorically that they have no inheritance in the kingdom of God...., then something just isn`t right.
If we already think that we know all of the answeres, as pfal seems to promise...we are not going to be motivated to make the changes necessary nor seek deliverance.
it is so different than the formulas and confessions and self examination to find out where we blew it and let satan in...mental tally trying to figure out if we tithed enough or is our belief up to snuff...etc
But, what about "The Four D's Of Doulos Doins"? Now that was some formula!
"IT'S THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!"
That is more than a cliche or even a principle, there is also a lesson in it, especially for those who were loyal to a person or an organization.
That is the greatest lesson I took from PFAL, followed closely by the research principles.
Here's my story:
About '85 I met a couple of WOWs and began going to a twig here in Northern Virginia. I wasn't interested in joining anything, I just needed and wanted answers and wasn't getting them elsewhere.
The chap running the twig taught me well. Mostly it was material from the collaterals. He taught me what I needed to know and soon gave me a Strong's and I got to working the Word on my own.
I was getting answers and understanding and at times that teaching would ring like a bell.
It was 2 years before I took PFAL and by then I'd been taught it all and a bunch more.
John Lynn came down and there were branch and limb things going on, but I wasn't that interested so when changes were made they didn't affect me much.
I just wanted the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word.
I didn't view certain people as celebrities the way some did. Belonging to the right club wasn't something I was pursuing, either.
Later I realized that twig coordinator was protecting us from it all.
All I wanted to know was the Bible.
Time went by and the twig coordinator moved on and appointed me to takeover.
The branch and limb weren't too happy about that, but too bad.
I was the man for the job, period.
They weren't too happy with the way I filled out the blue ABS forms because I didn't say who gave what (unless it was a check). I eventually told the people in the twig the branch and limb wanted the details and how I just thought it was none of their business.
The guy who taught me also gave me a bunch of material taught by Chris Geer and a few others, but it was a while, just before he left, that he told me about the politics and upheaval going on.
I just stayed out of it and did my best to bless the twig and keep them out of it all as well and keep the focus on puting forth the light of the Word.
What was taking place wasn't blessing anyone nor was it making God's Word known.
Sometime in there I got to understand that the Word must not just be rightly divided academically in terms of the Bible, but it must also be rightly divided in terms of when and where and how it is presented. Imagine Peter and John teaching perfectly on the Return to the guy they healed.
What I was getting from the limb and branch was not helping me or my twig know God's Word. I did, however get blessed by Larry Panarello when he was there.
Then in 1990 they wanted us to make banners for the Rock and I put on that bad boy what I wanted people to read. It read "THE WORD! THE WORD! NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!" That was my message to HQ. Nothing more needed to be said.
It was put on display up there and soon after I went to the limb and branch and told them I was going to Gartmore for 6 weeks to get what they were no longer offering, and what I knew I needed to help me bless my twig.
I didn't quit.
I told them I would be happy to stay with them but noooooo, that just wouldn't do. I was hoping to stick around and maybe things would get better.
So I went to Gartmore and learned a lot and had a great time and met some wonderful people. I got the light I needed.
The twig had some people peel off to TWI and it was fine with me. In America we've got to be free to do as we want.
I still fellowship with some who I met at Gartmore and others I have met since then.
There were difficult times, but by concentrating on what was important - the Word, the Word and nothing but God's wonderful matchless Word, I was spared some of what others went through.
That twig coordinator who taught me wasn't perfect, none of us are. But he taught me to work the Word and not work the collaterals or anything else unlss I looked on them as just what one person worked which may or may not be in error.
There were some things that took me longer to understand and some things I did not agree with. But one of the things that has stuck with me that I'd like to share is something that twig coordinator used to say.
I'd go by his house and maybe want to tell hm about some ridiculous thing from the religious realm. Maybe something wrong a particular denomination or a tv preacher had said. He'd stop me and say,"Wait a minute. Is this going to bless me?"
Of course invariably the answer was no and he refused to listen to any more.
Focusing on darkness doesn't bring light andpicking on the errors of others only satisfies the ego.
As VP would say, That's right!
I haven't read where the church in Ephesus went around criticizing and arguing with and dwelling on the error of the worshippers of Diana. None of their wisecracking survives and if they disrupted meetings to "rescue" people from that cult, I am unaware of it.
No, the church grew and prospered and was blessed by focusing on the light.
They held forth the Word and taught it the best they could and those seeking the light found it.
I have always believed that if someone is really hungry that God will get someone to them to feed that hunger and they will leave darkness to come to the light.
I found this board by accident and it is my opinion that those who spend so much time and energy cracking on The Way and various individuals and what was published and in PFAL are largely spinning their wheels and feeding their ego more than anything else. Tha time and effort could be better spent holding forth the light of the Word and blessing God's people that way.
I believe the thing to do is concentrate on holding forth what is right and believing God to get you in front of those in the Way or any other outfit you think is in error.
Be confident in the Truth and be confident that God will help people get to it.
Here's one more thing I learned on the way to trust God to do - cover my eff-ups. I'm not relying on Him to do so - let me explain.
One time that really sticks out in my mind, I had taught something that was wrong - really wrong. I can't recall just what it was (and I'm not saying it was my only mistake), but later that day or the next I realized I had really pulled a boner.
I felt rotten and embarrassed.
So I got on the phone to everyone right away to tell them to scratch out what I had said in the middle of a teaching and to explain what I should have said and all.
Get this - not a one of them heard my mistake or wrote down the verse I had plopped in there wrongly or anything.
I don't know what took place other than about a half dozen people didn't hear what I said. It wasn't because I'm a boring teacher. I'm pretty good.
But there is a lesson here about God working to get His people the Truth.
I've looked around here and seen a bunch of what's been put out and I just don't see how it is profitable.
Why not just hold forth the Truth to the best of your abilities and trust God to get people to you who are hungry?
After all, the ones who aren't hungry for the Truth of God's Word you hold aren't going to listen anyhoodles.
I don't care if what I was taught was plagiarized from someone - hell, that chap probably stoled it from someone else for all I know.
All I want is God's Word, and if I hear it from VP Wierwille or L. Craig Martindale or Benny Hinn, I don't care because I'm not into the celebrity worship nor am I a good person because of the religious club I belong to.
And we make it worse when we hold them up like rock stars because that works against any inclination they may have to be a servant.
I am reminded of something that Chris Geer said on one of those History of the Mystery tapes. He said the church is still hurting from Barnabas going astray and I believe people are stil hurting over events of the last 25 years. In the six weeks I was at Gartmore I never heard Geer, Townsend or any of the others make cracks about what was going on and in fellowship with the other 40 students it wasn't discussed either, at least not in my earshot. I recall being a little frustrated because there was a question or two I had. What happened when I asked or tried to broach the topic was the light of th Word was held forth, and not on that topic, either. I didn't need to know any of that stuff and I don't have a need to read these documents and other stuff posted here.
Slinging tomatoes just makes it worse, no matter how much cause you have to do so.
There is only one thing to do, and that is to get back to
THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!
well i guess we can forget his beloved children and creations as well.
the problem i have with this theory is what word?
hmm
should i run with that spin on the verse or this one and sure we can all find an error or two in what we think is right and what it must truly mean . I get that.
hello
have ya took a look at anything but what pfal has taught?
if not then heck yah happy as a clam you are ! could be wrong but wont consider that will ya now ?
ok case solved but what if just maybe there is more to learn about? even what jesus said and did that the world is not large enough to hold the volume?
that is what John says in the book of revelation. so there is more than what is written in the holy bible not to metion various spins and takes.
it isnt that simple. and it is wrong to use the bible as the only source when it does not hold all the information how do I know? the bible says so!! honestly lol
"IT'S THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!"
That is more than a cliche or even a principle, there is also a lesson in it, especially for those who were loyal to a person or an organization.
That is the greatest lesson I took from PFAL, followed closely by the research principles.
Yeah.....some good lessons learned and bad cliches and principles, including the "absent-Christ" doctrine that permeated twi.
Later I realized that twig coordinator was protecting us from it all.
Now, after taking pfal......you needed protection from the inner-workings of twi?
Kinda ironic, isn't it? :)
What was taking place wasn't blessing anyone nor was it making God's Word known.
Sometime in there I got to understand that the Word must not just be rightly divided academically in terms of the Bible, but it must also be rightly divided in terms of when and where and how it is presented.
Yes....the doctrine AND application of God's truth.
There were difficult times, but by concentrating on what was important - the Word, the Word and nothing but God's wonderful matchless Word, I was spared some of what others went through.
Some here stayed through DIFFICULT TIMES for 20-25 years....trying to "do the Word" and fix the problems. Many were thrown out, mark & avoid, because of their attempts to "do the Word."
Now many come here to clarify twi's doctrinal errors, expose abuses, denounce the mog/celebrity status (idolizing men), and in effect....hold forth the truth of the scriptures. And, let's not forget....for many, GS is a very small segment of our lives. Family, church, neighbors, community......lots of do.
"The Word" as taught in pfal is highly suspect in SO MANY AREAS and on SO MANY LEVELS.
The simple truths and the simplicity that is in Jesus Christ............I love.
Well. skyrider, then how about loving like Jesus Christ loved?
In your rush to get to the part where you can dwell on darkness, you missed what my post was about.
This is not the time to slice and dice and parse and reinterpret and show how quick-witted one is.
All of us, in and out of TWI, have done good and bad and I am not so arrogant as to imagine I have sinned less than those used for a punching bag by those who need the ego boost.
And if I heard the same from TWI about GSC, my response would be the same.
For me, it has always been about having a better understanding of the Word.
I'm not about attacking people, whether it is TWI, the Catholics the Mormons or anyone else.
It seems to me instead of saying, "That bunch over there is wrong to say and do a,b,and c, and EVERYONE LOOK AT ME because I know they should say and do x,y,and z"; the better way is to just hold forth x,y,and z.
What you or I have to say isn't true because someone else is wrong.
All that other stuff just takes time and energy away from holding forth God's Word.
I was married waaaaay back in the day and the divorce was a long painful experience that was drawn out longer than necessary. Rotten vicious things were done and said and it only got better for both of us when we separated and cut contact. It would have been wrong for us to have stalked each other for years or decades afterward and told each other's new paramours what a horrid person the other was.
No, the thing to do was to go our separate ways and get on with our lives.
About 17 or 18 years later I ran into her in a store and we had a very pleasant chat for about 10 minutes.
The hate was gone, we both had new lives going and it was nice to see her happy about her husband and child she had with her and I think she was happy for me to be doing what I was doing. None of the past was mentioned because we both knew instinctively it was pointless to rehash old b.s. Absolutely pointless and profitless.
We both understood that we were wrong for each other and that even being friends after this chance meeting was out of the question.
The last time I had seen her was in a lawyer's office with an abundance of hate being spewed and to have this sort of cap to the affair meant a lot to both of us in ways I can't describe.
And I haven't seen her since then and that's fine, too.
Pond, I think it is evident what Word I was talking about.
I was talking about what I could work from the Bible.
And yes, I have learned much from non-PFAL sources.
Please re-read my post and you will see a theme was that TWI was unimportant as an organization to me and that I am not concerned with the messenger as much as the message.
At the time, what I learned in the twig and the classes I took helped me and others a lot.
My own research has continued outside of PFAL and the other books and tapes I bought back then. And as I have worked various subjects I have learned new things outside of PFAL.
That does not take away the value of that class or the other things I was taught.
I try to keep my focus on THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD! and to the extent I can do so I have benefitted.
I have never profitted by tearing anyone down or dwelling on error.
A better understanding of the word did nothing to keep twi leaders from committing the most evil of atrocities on innocent Christians.
I think we`d damned well better figure out if a *better knowledge of the word* is all that`s necessary for a genuine Christian walk.
I think that a better/deeper understanding of the word as stressed in twi in many cases became a substitute for the genuine christian heart/character/morals/spirit etc.
I think that the arrogance that was aquired from that deeper knowledge in many cases prevents the humbleness and meekness necessary to walk as a genuine christian.
In short... that deeper knowledge as interpreted in twi was not necessarily a good thing.
Jesus warned the believers extensively concerning those whom would harm them...yes even those who knew scripture....and yes in very unflattering terms.
Sorry that it makes you uncomfortable, but it remains a vital and important job that needs to be done.
As far as your marriage and stalking scenario??? What if that ex marriage partner was known for poisoning those they got close to...what if they were knowingly spreading aids to unsuspecting partners??...what if they were a known pedophile and were stalking unwary innocents???....damned right a warning would be in order for possible future victims....it would be ones moral, not to mention spiritual obligation.
Just to be content to move on once one has escaped from the grips of evil....to carry on ones life without a thought to those left in bondage behind, for those possible future victims is cowardly and unconscionable.
As far as your marriage and stalking scenario??? What if that ex marriage partner was known for poisoning those they got close to...what if they were knowingly spreading aids to unsuspecting partners??...what if they were a known pedophile and were stalking unwary innocents???....damned right a warning would be in order for possible future victims....it would be ones moral, not to mention spiritual obligation.
Just to be content to move on once one has escaped from the grips of evil....to carry on ones life without a thought to those left in bondage behind, for those possible future victims is cowardly and unconscionable.
For me and her, in that situation, it was the right thing to do.
Like I said, the nastiness went on longer than it should have and part of what took place was the very self-righteous I-better-warn-others attitude was held and while in the midst of the fighting we thought we were "helping" spectators avoid the evils of the other person, for the most part all the spectators saw was the petty bickering.
If TWI is spreading AIDS or committing pedophilia or putting bags of dog doo on peoples' porches, lighting it and running away, the obligation is to call the cops and let them handle it.
Our society has given them authority to do so and taxes us to pay for it.
Allowing innocents to be decieved and ensnared when you know better...when you have viewed first hand the evil and barely escaped the bondage.... is cowardly and totally against what Jesus taught in the scriptures concerning the spiritual battle my friend.
Nothing personal, go on about your happy life, be oblivious to the ongoing suffering at twi`s hands.... pretending that the lives at risk, those who may be ensnared in the future are not your concern because you find that confronting the darkness personally distatefull. No problem, but please don`t try to point your finger of judgement and condemnation at those whom see it as their spiritual/moral duty to warn the unwary, to extend a hand to those still entrapped with the fears that keep them enslaved in the darkness that they abide in in twi.
Our duty is clear, whether you can see it or understand it brother.
People need to KNOW what we have seen
People need to KNOW that God does not require them to submit to evil men and false doctrines.
People need to KNOW that God loves them and does not require them to live serving an evil organization...that there is blessing and joy and growth and fellowship away from those who would presume to keep them in bondage.
THAT is why GS needs to be hear and THAT is why we need to keep telling our stories of abuse.....THAT is why we can never ever shut up.
"That bunch over there is wrong to say and do a,b,and c, and EVERYONE LOOK AT ME because I know they should say and do x,y,and z"; the better way is to just hold forth x,y,and z.
What you or I have to say isn't true because someone else is wrong.
Deciderator,
Welcome to the Spot. I am sorry that our little meeting place isn't to you liking. There are many who would agree with you concerning the above quotation. I would also agree with you but it does not apply to GS. There are of course some posters here that would in fact match this scenerio. But by and large this is not the case.
You should understand that people do not normally come here to "teach or expound" the word. That is not the purpose of GS. Says so on the front page. It also clearly states that this is not a religious site. So to come in here expecting to teach the word is not realistic.
Many were hurt by TWI and/or the people in it or running it. They come here to heal so that they can teach the word if they still have the desire to do so. If they have to tell their stories to do so then they will tell them and I for one will listen.
Well. skyrider, then how about loving like Jesus Christ loved?
In your rush to get to the part where you can dwell on darkness, you missed what my post was about.
This is not the time to slice and dice and parse and reinterpret and show how quick-witted one is.
All of us, in and out of TWI, have done good and bad and I am not so arrogant as to imagine I have sinned less than those used for a punching bag by those who need the ego boost.
And if I heard the same from TWI about GSC, my response would be the same.
Well then.....if I LOVE like Jesus Christ loved, then I would confront pharisee/sadducee doctrine and warn the people rather than go sit in the synagogue and read the scrolls.
Exposing the evil-workings of wolves in sheeps' clothing IS walking in love.
Bringing the light of truth to shine on twi's traditions of idolatry and spiritual smugness IS walking in love.
Unveiling the destructive "training" of the corps program just might deter some from twi's snares.
And, it is ironic that you come here judging GS posters and their "attacking people" while holding in high esteem men like Cgeer and others. Have you not READ The Passing of a Patriarch? Have you not HEARD how he ripped the trustees in some 18 pages (?) of his journal of notes? Have you not THOUGHT it unloving for cgeer to publically attack many of twi's upper leadership....and later, spiritually stereotyping all twi's clergy in one lump sum?
Sounds like you have an agenda here....decide-o-right.
Time here at GS is only a fraction of my life. Like many others, I have a full plate of responsibilities and haven't the time to patronize this lively-discussion Cafe. Of course, a good food-fight can always arouse a crowd if one is so inclined.
Deciderator...I am not trying to make you uncomfortable, I just want to try to explain that sometimes there is a bigger picture that you might not understand.
I think that if you honestly understood who and WHAT VPW was...if you understood who and WHAT Geer was ....WHAT they taught and ok`d/instilled in leaders....quite honestly it might stun you.
You might realise that these men were not what you imagined, that the *word* that they taught you contaminated.
Does the idea of drugging and raping young teenaged women offend you? does the casual destruction of lives, the people who died at the hands of these men offend you? Does forced abortion? Forced sexual servitude??
Yeah the word they taught ...it is great the fellow that designed the class (and I am not talking about vpw was a genuine christian) , but it also has subtle nastiness woven in, stuff that in the end damages your walk.
If you ever cared to be honest, if your thirst for the truth is genuine, I exhort you as a sister in Christ to set aside your instilled predjudices and give your bretheren abiding in the same body of Christ a chance to minister to you, to bring you up to speed with a n accurate understanding of the truth that you thought you knew.
For me and her, in that situation, it was the right thing to do.
Like I said, the nastiness went on longer than it should have and part of what took place was the very self-righteous I-better-warn-others attitude was held and while in the midst of the fighting we thought we were "helping" spectators avoid the evils of the other person, for the most part all the spectators saw was the petty bickering.
If TWI is spreading AIDS or committing pedophilia or putting bags of dog doo on peoples' porches, lighting it and running away, the obligation is to call the cops and let them handle it.
Our society has given them authority to do so and taxes us to pay for it.
Focusing on darkness keeps you from the light.
Welcome to GSC, Deciderator...My wife got me interested in GSC – and for awhile I'd just check out lots of the threads…The more I read and reflected on my own TWI experience – the more I felt a moral obligation to talk about TWI's hypocrisy and toxic doctrines. This is not coming from a self-righteous I'd–better-warn-others attitude…As a Christian, it is very sobering to think of the evils of TWI – I think it speaks volumes to those who desire to please our Lord – this is what happens when sin goes unchecked! In my opinion, we're all part of a fallen race – with strong tendencies to sin. So why put my relationship with God in jeopardy or any other believer for that matter, by condoning what they do, whitewashing what they do, or ignoring the fact that they give Christianity a bad name!
I don't think we're to focus on darkness either. However I think it is our moral duty to focus the light of God's Word on the moral darkness of these predators. II Peter 2 comes to mind, warning people of false teachers and their moral depravity. Yes – it's nasty business talking about the hypocrisy and moral depravity of TWI– not something I particularly enjoy. But it seems to be one of the necessary tasks of Christians submitting to the moral dictates of the Bible. Consider Paul addressing the matter of sexual immorality that was going on in Corinth. This was not some private counseling session – it's in a church epistle – for all to read:
I Corinthians 5:1-13 NIV
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]
The high moral standards of the Bible, the warnings of sin - are just as much a part of God's Word as doing a word study on "righteousness." Maybe one reason TWI avoids the gospels like the plague is because of the strong moral content in many of Jesus' dialogues. One of the deadliest aspects of the TWI mindset is the way it lulls the conscience to sleep.
It's uncomfortable to think about TWI's crap - because God gave us a conscience!!!!!!!! And it's spiritually deadly - because it is the farthest thing from being the church of Jesus Christ! Any mention of Christ in PFAL was window dressing to sucker in the unsuspecting Christian - because once you're a grad - Jesus is no where to be found.
Welcome to GSC Deciderator. Glad to have you here and listen to what you have to say. Some here agree with you about
a theme was that TWI was unimportant as an organization to me and that I am not concerned with the messenger as much as the message.
It is God and His Word that are most important. Sadly, too many had their focus shifted from the Word to the organization, and were deeply hurt by it. So to reveal the darkness of the organization helps in separating the truth from the error taught.
You were fortunate to have escaped any hurt, and I'm glad for you. My hurt from the organization was minimal, also, and I am thankful for that. But for those who were not as fortunate, I am thankful for a place like GSC where they can understand how they were influenced to put the organization above God, heal from it, and move on. It's vitally important to them, and should be viewed with compassion not with contempt. It's not "bad mouthing" as much as it is sorting out a horrid incongruency, coming to terms with it, deciding what is good and true and holding on to it, while seeing the evil that was there and learning to leave it behind.
May I offer you some coffee and a bite to eat while you peruse the Cafe? There is a lot of good here you can enjoy. Again, welcome.
I didn't ask if you cared or not, only if you still believed that stuff from PFAL. So that doesn't answer the question. Then again, if you don't care, don't answer it.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
rascal
I guess that what I am saying, and badly, is that in hind sight, pfal doesn`t seem to have been the answere to a relationship with God or a guide to spiritual wholesomeness.
It is scary to me that people think that this knowledge aquired somehow makes one spiritual....when obviously the fruit in so many of our lives and that of our leaders falls in squarely the category *of the flesh*
Genuine Christians simply don`t behave as we were led to believe...but pfal class makes excuses as to why it is acceptable to embrace evil and pretend that one can do so and remain unsullied.
Frankly, I am afraid that this class gives people the illusion of being Christian, but I wonder how many of us are going to one day face Jesus and be told to *depart for I knew you not*
I think that it takes more than just knowledge and formulas to be christian.
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Ham
Same for me Rascal. Lessee.. in over twenty years involvement..
God and I made it rain once..
I chased a hangover out of a guy once.. he looked AWFUL, and after I prayed he was like a spring chicken..
I've seen more after leaving.
My daughter was healed of a cancer that very very few kids make it through. Somehow, when we got the "news".. I didn't panic.. I just kinda knew she would be ok.. but the healing involved doctors, the supernatural, and the support of the community. Without all three I don't think she would have made it. She definitely would not if we were still with the ministry. at least two out of the three avenues would have been cut off.
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TheHighWay
I cannot tell you how many times I had this very conversation with folks while in twi... it isn't just enough to have a knowledge of the scriptures. If you don't understand or practice the heart and intent of them, you are way off base with God.
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rascal
Exactly guys ...geeze Ham, how wonderfull that your little girl survived. That quiet peace with God is what I am fumbling towards...where you know that he is there...what you described, it is so different than the formulas and confessions and self examination to find out where we blew it and let satan in...mental tally trying to figure out if we tithed enough or is our belief up to snuff...etc
I am NOT trying to crap on anybodies good memories, anybodies results, what I want to say is that even though according to the scriptures that we learned in pfal we are heaven bound an all hell cannot stop us.......if the fruit manifested in our lives or those of our leaders id clearly recognised as someone who is of the flesh and the scriptures state uncatagorically that they have no inheritance in the kingdom of God...., then something just isn`t right.
If we already think that we know all of the answeres, as pfal seems to promise...we are not going to be motivated to make the changes necessary nor seek deliverance.
OK, I think pfal can be flat out dangerous.
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J0nny Ling0
But, what about "The Four D's Of Doulos Doins"? Now that was some formula!
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Deciderator
"IT'S THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!"
That is more than a cliche or even a principle, there is also a lesson in it, especially for those who were loyal to a person or an organization.
That is the greatest lesson I took from PFAL, followed closely by the research principles.
Here's my story:
About '85 I met a couple of WOWs and began going to a twig here in Northern Virginia. I wasn't interested in joining anything, I just needed and wanted answers and wasn't getting them elsewhere.
The chap running the twig taught me well. Mostly it was material from the collaterals. He taught me what I needed to know and soon gave me a Strong's and I got to working the Word on my own.
I was getting answers and understanding and at times that teaching would ring like a bell.
It was 2 years before I took PFAL and by then I'd been taught it all and a bunch more.
John Lynn came down and there were branch and limb things going on, but I wasn't that interested so when changes were made they didn't affect me much.
I just wanted the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word.
I didn't view certain people as celebrities the way some did. Belonging to the right club wasn't something I was pursuing, either.
Later I realized that twig coordinator was protecting us from it all.
All I wanted to know was the Bible.
Time went by and the twig coordinator moved on and appointed me to takeover.
The branch and limb weren't too happy about that, but too bad.
I was the man for the job, period.
They weren't too happy with the way I filled out the blue ABS forms because I didn't say who gave what (unless it was a check). I eventually told the people in the twig the branch and limb wanted the details and how I just thought it was none of their business.
The guy who taught me also gave me a bunch of material taught by Chris Geer and a few others, but it was a while, just before he left, that he told me about the politics and upheaval going on.
I just stayed out of it and did my best to bless the twig and keep them out of it all as well and keep the focus on puting forth the light of the Word.
What was taking place wasn't blessing anyone nor was it making God's Word known.
Sometime in there I got to understand that the Word must not just be rightly divided academically in terms of the Bible, but it must also be rightly divided in terms of when and where and how it is presented. Imagine Peter and John teaching perfectly on the Return to the guy they healed.
What I was getting from the limb and branch was not helping me or my twig know God's Word. I did, however get blessed by Larry Panarello when he was there.
Then in 1990 they wanted us to make banners for the Rock and I put on that bad boy what I wanted people to read. It read "THE WORD! THE WORD! NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!" That was my message to HQ. Nothing more needed to be said.
It was put on display up there and soon after I went to the limb and branch and told them I was going to Gartmore for 6 weeks to get what they were no longer offering, and what I knew I needed to help me bless my twig.
I didn't quit.
I told them I would be happy to stay with them but noooooo, that just wouldn't do. I was hoping to stick around and maybe things would get better.
So I went to Gartmore and learned a lot and had a great time and met some wonderful people. I got the light I needed.
The twig had some people peel off to TWI and it was fine with me. In America we've got to be free to do as we want.
I still fellowship with some who I met at Gartmore and others I have met since then.
There were difficult times, but by concentrating on what was important - the Word, the Word and nothing but God's wonderful matchless Word, I was spared some of what others went through.
That twig coordinator who taught me wasn't perfect, none of us are. But he taught me to work the Word and not work the collaterals or anything else unlss I looked on them as just what one person worked which may or may not be in error.
There were some things that took me longer to understand and some things I did not agree with. But one of the things that has stuck with me that I'd like to share is something that twig coordinator used to say.
I'd go by his house and maybe want to tell hm about some ridiculous thing from the religious realm. Maybe something wrong a particular denomination or a tv preacher had said. He'd stop me and say,"Wait a minute. Is this going to bless me?"
Of course invariably the answer was no and he refused to listen to any more.
Focusing on darkness doesn't bring light andpicking on the errors of others only satisfies the ego.
As VP would say, That's right!
I haven't read where the church in Ephesus went around criticizing and arguing with and dwelling on the error of the worshippers of Diana. None of their wisecracking survives and if they disrupted meetings to "rescue" people from that cult, I am unaware of it.
No, the church grew and prospered and was blessed by focusing on the light.
They held forth the Word and taught it the best they could and those seeking the light found it.
I have always believed that if someone is really hungry that God will get someone to them to feed that hunger and they will leave darkness to come to the light.
I found this board by accident and it is my opinion that those who spend so much time and energy cracking on The Way and various individuals and what was published and in PFAL are largely spinning their wheels and feeding their ego more than anything else. Tha time and effort could be better spent holding forth the light of the Word and blessing God's people that way.
I believe the thing to do is concentrate on holding forth what is right and believing God to get you in front of those in the Way or any other outfit you think is in error.
Be confident in the Truth and be confident that God will help people get to it.
Here's one more thing I learned on the way to trust God to do - cover my eff-ups. I'm not relying on Him to do so - let me explain.
One time that really sticks out in my mind, I had taught something that was wrong - really wrong. I can't recall just what it was (and I'm not saying it was my only mistake), but later that day or the next I realized I had really pulled a boner.
I felt rotten and embarrassed.
So I got on the phone to everyone right away to tell them to scratch out what I had said in the middle of a teaching and to explain what I should have said and all.
Get this - not a one of them heard my mistake or wrote down the verse I had plopped in there wrongly or anything.
I don't know what took place other than about a half dozen people didn't hear what I said. It wasn't because I'm a boring teacher. I'm pretty good.
But there is a lesson here about God working to get His people the Truth.
I've looked around here and seen a bunch of what's been put out and I just don't see how it is profitable.
Why not just hold forth the Truth to the best of your abilities and trust God to get people to you who are hungry?
After all, the ones who aren't hungry for the Truth of God's Word you hold aren't going to listen anyhoodles.
I don't care if what I was taught was plagiarized from someone - hell, that chap probably stoled it from someone else for all I know.
All I want is God's Word, and if I hear it from VP Wierwille or L. Craig Martindale or Benny Hinn, I don't care because I'm not into the celebrity worship nor am I a good person because of the religious club I belong to.
And we make it worse when we hold them up like rock stars because that works against any inclination they may have to be a servant.
I am reminded of something that Chris Geer said on one of those History of the Mystery tapes. He said the church is still hurting from Barnabas going astray and I believe people are stil hurting over events of the last 25 years. In the six weeks I was at Gartmore I never heard Geer, Townsend or any of the others make cracks about what was going on and in fellowship with the other 40 students it wasn't discussed either, at least not in my earshot. I recall being a little frustrated because there was a question or two I had. What happened when I asked or tried to broach the topic was the light of th Word was held forth, and not on that topic, either. I didn't need to know any of that stuff and I don't have a need to read these documents and other stuff posted here.
Slinging tomatoes just makes it worse, no matter how much cause you have to do so.
There is only one thing to do, and that is to get back to
THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!
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Bolshevik
Move over God, Your Word is here.
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waysider
Hi there, Deciderator.
Welcome to GSC.
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pond
well i guess we can forget his beloved children and creations as well.
the problem i have with this theory is what word?
hmm
should i run with that spin on the verse or this one and sure we can all find an error or two in what we think is right and what it must truly mean . I get that.
hello
have ya took a look at anything but what pfal has taught?
if not then heck yah happy as a clam you are ! could be wrong but wont consider that will ya now ?
ok case solved but what if just maybe there is more to learn about? even what jesus said and did that the world is not large enough to hold the volume?
that is what John says in the book of revelation. so there is more than what is written in the holy bible not to metion various spins and takes.
it isnt that simple. and it is wrong to use the bible as the only source when it does not hold all the information how do I know? the bible says so!! honestly lol
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skyrider
Yeah.....some good lessons learned and bad cliches and principles, including the "absent-Christ" doctrine that permeated twi.
Now, after taking pfal......you needed protection from the inner-workings of twi?Kinda ironic, isn't it? :)
Yes....the doctrine AND application of God's truth.
Some here stayed through DIFFICULT TIMES for 20-25 years....trying to "do the Word" and fix the problems. Many were thrown out, mark & avoid, because of their attempts to "do the Word."
Now many come here to clarify twi's doctrinal errors, expose abuses, denounce the mog/celebrity status (idolizing men), and in effect....hold forth the truth of the scriptures. And, let's not forget....for many, GS is a very small segment of our lives. Family, church, neighbors, community......lots of do.
"The Word" as taught in pfal is highly suspect in SO MANY AREAS and on SO MANY LEVELS.
The simple truths and the simplicity that is in Jesus Christ............I love.
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Deciderator
Well. skyrider, then how about loving like Jesus Christ loved?
In your rush to get to the part where you can dwell on darkness, you missed what my post was about.
This is not the time to slice and dice and parse and reinterpret and show how quick-witted one is.
All of us, in and out of TWI, have done good and bad and I am not so arrogant as to imagine I have sinned less than those used for a punching bag by those who need the ego boost.
And if I heard the same from TWI about GSC, my response would be the same.
For me, it has always been about having a better understanding of the Word.
I'm not about attacking people, whether it is TWI, the Catholics the Mormons or anyone else.
It seems to me instead of saying, "That bunch over there is wrong to say and do a,b,and c, and EVERYONE LOOK AT ME because I know they should say and do x,y,and z"; the better way is to just hold forth x,y,and z.
What you or I have to say isn't true because someone else is wrong.
All that other stuff just takes time and energy away from holding forth God's Word.
I was married waaaaay back in the day and the divorce was a long painful experience that was drawn out longer than necessary. Rotten vicious things were done and said and it only got better for both of us when we separated and cut contact. It would have been wrong for us to have stalked each other for years or decades afterward and told each other's new paramours what a horrid person the other was.
No, the thing to do was to go our separate ways and get on with our lives.
About 17 or 18 years later I ran into her in a store and we had a very pleasant chat for about 10 minutes.
The hate was gone, we both had new lives going and it was nice to see her happy about her husband and child she had with her and I think she was happy for me to be doing what I was doing. None of the past was mentioned because we both knew instinctively it was pointless to rehash old b.s. Absolutely pointless and profitless.
We both understood that we were wrong for each other and that even being friends after this chance meeting was out of the question.
The last time I had seen her was in a lawyer's office with an abundance of hate being spewed and to have this sort of cap to the affair meant a lot to both of us in ways I can't describe.
And I haven't seen her since then and that's fine, too.
Pond, I think it is evident what Word I was talking about.
I was talking about what I could work from the Bible.
And yes, I have learned much from non-PFAL sources.
Please re-read my post and you will see a theme was that TWI was unimportant as an organization to me and that I am not concerned with the messenger as much as the message.
At the time, what I learned in the twig and the classes I took helped me and others a lot.
My own research has continued outside of PFAL and the other books and tapes I bought back then. And as I have worked various subjects I have learned new things outside of PFAL.
That does not take away the value of that class or the other things I was taught.
I try to keep my focus on THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD! and to the extent I can do so I have benefitted.
I have never profitted by tearing anyone down or dwelling on error.
Sorry you didn't get that from my post.
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rascal
A better understanding of the word did nothing to keep twi leaders from committing the most evil of atrocities on innocent Christians.
I think we`d damned well better figure out if a *better knowledge of the word* is all that`s necessary for a genuine Christian walk.
I think that a better/deeper understanding of the word as stressed in twi in many cases became a substitute for the genuine christian heart/character/morals/spirit etc.
I think that the arrogance that was aquired from that deeper knowledge in many cases prevents the humbleness and meekness necessary to walk as a genuine christian.
In short... that deeper knowledge as interpreted in twi was not necessarily a good thing.
Jesus warned the believers extensively concerning those whom would harm them...yes even those who knew scripture....and yes in very unflattering terms.
Sorry that it makes you uncomfortable, but it remains a vital and important job that needs to be done.
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rascal
As far as your marriage and stalking scenario??? What if that ex marriage partner was known for poisoning those they got close to...what if they were knowingly spreading aids to unsuspecting partners??...what if they were a known pedophile and were stalking unwary innocents???....damned right a warning would be in order for possible future victims....it would be ones moral, not to mention spiritual obligation.
Just to be content to move on once one has escaped from the grips of evil....to carry on ones life without a thought to those left in bondage behind, for those possible future victims is cowardly and unconscionable.
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Deciderator
For me and her, in that situation, it was the right thing to do.
Like I said, the nastiness went on longer than it should have and part of what took place was the very self-righteous I-better-warn-others attitude was held and while in the midst of the fighting we thought we were "helping" spectators avoid the evils of the other person, for the most part all the spectators saw was the petty bickering.
If TWI is spreading AIDS or committing pedophilia or putting bags of dog doo on peoples' porches, lighting it and running away, the obligation is to call the cops and let them handle it.
Our society has given them authority to do so and taxes us to pay for it.
Focusing on darkness keeps you from the light.
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rascal
Allowing innocents to be decieved and ensnared when you know better...when you have viewed first hand the evil and barely escaped the bondage.... is cowardly and totally against what Jesus taught in the scriptures concerning the spiritual battle my friend.
Nothing personal, go on about your happy life, be oblivious to the ongoing suffering at twi`s hands.... pretending that the lives at risk, those who may be ensnared in the future are not your concern because you find that confronting the darkness personally distatefull. No problem, but please don`t try to point your finger of judgement and condemnation at those whom see it as their spiritual/moral duty to warn the unwary, to extend a hand to those still entrapped with the fears that keep them enslaved in the darkness that they abide in in twi.
Our duty is clear, whether you can see it or understand it brother.
People need to KNOW what we have seen
People need to KNOW that God does not require them to submit to evil men and false doctrines.
People need to KNOW that God loves them and does not require them to live serving an evil organization...that there is blessing and joy and growth and fellowship away from those who would presume to keep them in bondage.
THAT is why GS needs to be hear and THAT is why we need to keep telling our stories of abuse.....THAT is why we can never ever shut up.
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Eyesopen
Deciderator,
Welcome to the Spot. I am sorry that our little meeting place isn't to you liking. There are many who would agree with you concerning the above quotation. I would also agree with you but it does not apply to GS. There are of course some posters here that would in fact match this scenerio. But by and large this is not the case.
You should understand that people do not normally come here to "teach or expound" the word. That is not the purpose of GS. Says so on the front page. It also clearly states that this is not a religious site. So to come in here expecting to teach the word is not realistic.
Many were hurt by TWI and/or the people in it or running it. They come here to heal so that they can teach the word if they still have the desire to do so. If they have to tell their stories to do so then they will tell them and I for one will listen.
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skyrider
Well then.....if I LOVE like Jesus Christ loved, then I would confront pharisee/sadducee doctrine and warn the people rather than go sit in the synagogue and read the scrolls.
Exposing the evil-workings of wolves in sheeps' clothing IS walking in love.
Bringing the light of truth to shine on twi's traditions of idolatry and spiritual smugness IS walking in love.
Unveiling the destructive "training" of the corps program just might deter some from twi's snares.
And, it is ironic that you come here judging GS posters and their "attacking people" while holding in high esteem men like Cgeer and others. Have you not READ The Passing of a Patriarch? Have you not HEARD how he ripped the trustees in some 18 pages (?) of his journal of notes? Have you not THOUGHT it unloving for cgeer to publically attack many of twi's upper leadership....and later, spiritually stereotyping all twi's clergy in one lump sum?
Sounds like you have an agenda here....decide-o-right.
Time here at GS is only a fraction of my life. Like many others, I have a full plate of responsibilities and haven't the time to patronize this lively-discussion Cafe. Of course, a good food-fight can always arouse a crowd if one is so inclined.
Welcome to GS.
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rascal
Deciderator...I am not trying to make you uncomfortable, I just want to try to explain that sometimes there is a bigger picture that you might not understand.
I think that if you honestly understood who and WHAT VPW was...if you understood who and WHAT Geer was ....WHAT they taught and ok`d/instilled in leaders....quite honestly it might stun you.
You might realise that these men were not what you imagined, that the *word* that they taught you contaminated.
Does the idea of drugging and raping young teenaged women offend you? does the casual destruction of lives, the people who died at the hands of these men offend you? Does forced abortion? Forced sexual servitude??
Yeah the word they taught ...it is great the fellow that designed the class (and I am not talking about vpw was a genuine christian) , but it also has subtle nastiness woven in, stuff that in the end damages your walk.
If you ever cared to be honest, if your thirst for the truth is genuine, I exhort you as a sister in Christ to set aside your instilled predjudices and give your bretheren abiding in the same body of Christ a chance to minister to you, to bring you up to speed with a n accurate understanding of the truth that you thought you knew.
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oldiesman
I got it Deciderator. Thanks for sharing.
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rascal
Maybe what we do isn`t for personal profit.
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T-Bone
Welcome to GSC, Deciderator...My wife got me interested in GSC – and for awhile I'd just check out lots of the threads…The more I read and reflected on my own TWI experience – the more I felt a moral obligation to talk about TWI's hypocrisy and toxic doctrines. This is not coming from a self-righteous I'd–better-warn-others attitude…As a Christian, it is very sobering to think of the evils of TWI – I think it speaks volumes to those who desire to please our Lord – this is what happens when sin goes unchecked! In my opinion, we're all part of a fallen race – with strong tendencies to sin. So why put my relationship with God in jeopardy or any other believer for that matter, by condoning what they do, whitewashing what they do, or ignoring the fact that they give Christianity a bad name!
I don't think we're to focus on darkness either. However I think it is our moral duty to focus the light of God's Word on the moral darkness of these predators. II Peter 2 comes to mind, warning people of false teachers and their moral depravity. Yes – it's nasty business talking about the hypocrisy and moral depravity of TWI– not something I particularly enjoy. But it seems to be one of the necessary tasks of Christians submitting to the moral dictates of the Bible. Consider Paul addressing the matter of sexual immorality that was going on in Corinth. This was not some private counseling session – it's in a church epistle – for all to read:
I Corinthians 5:1-13 NIV
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]
The high moral standards of the Bible, the warnings of sin - are just as much a part of God's Word as doing a word study on "righteousness." Maybe one reason TWI avoids the gospels like the plague is because of the strong moral content in many of Jesus' dialogues. One of the deadliest aspects of the TWI mindset is the way it lulls the conscience to sleep.
It's uncomfortable to think about TWI's crap - because God gave us a conscience!!!!!!!! And it's spiritually deadly - because it is the farthest thing from being the church of Jesus Christ! Any mention of Christ in PFAL was window dressing to sucker in the unsuspecting Christian - because once you're a grad - Jesus is no where to be found.
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excathedra
hi deciderator
if i was going to focus on darkness, i would spend all my time talking about chris geer
sorry he was able to deceive you
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Suda
Welcome to GSC Deciderator. Glad to have you here and listen to what you have to say. Some here agree with you about
It is God and His Word that are most important. Sadly, too many had their focus shifted from the Word to the organization, and were deeply hurt by it. So to reveal the darkness of the organization helps in separating the truth from the error taught.
You were fortunate to have escaped any hurt, and I'm glad for you. My hurt from the organization was minimal, also, and I am thankful for that. But for those who were not as fortunate, I am thankful for a place like GSC where they can understand how they were influenced to put the organization above God, heal from it, and move on. It's vitally important to them, and should be viewed with compassion not with contempt. It's not "bad mouthing" as much as it is sorting out a horrid incongruency, coming to terms with it, deciding what is good and true and holding on to it, while seeing the evil that was there and learning to leave it behind.
May I offer you some coffee and a bite to eat while you peruse the Cafe? There is a lot of good here you can enjoy. Again, welcome.
Suda
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Eagle
Gee, Imagine,
I didn't ask if you cared or not, only if you still believed that stuff from PFAL. So that doesn't answer the question. Then again, if you don't care, don't answer it.
That's okay.
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