That is irrelevant; there are no bad trees in the body of Christ and since Tbone said he values the gospels (when there was no body of Christ yet) more than the church epistles, he'll never understand that. Like I said, the standards of the gospels were as though Israel had accepted Jesus as the Messiah; they didn't so God had to go to plan B. You don't think this happened before?
There were standards in the garden of Eden, but in Gen. 3 something happened which negated those standards and the rules changed. Then God went to plan B again when He saw that every imagination of the thoughts of mankind's hearts were only evil continually (Gen 6:5). The rules changed again....
You're assuming all the members of a visible church are also members of Christ's invisible church. Why are there passages that warn of false prophets, false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing, wolves coming in not sparing the flock?
What rules are you talking about? What plan B? What about the sovereignty of God? Do you think what Adam and Eve did threw God a curve - Oh my gosh, I didn't anticipate this - now what do I do? What does that say about the counsel of the Lord? Like Bliss said - God's plan - His only plan - is His will! That does go against vpw's words of "wisdom" circumstances changed so the revelation changed.
Speaking of "rules", Jesus summed up the entire written Word of God available in His day by saying everything revolved around two laws - love God and neighbor...Paul and James echo the same thing in the epistles: Romans 13:9, 10; 15:2; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8...I don't think anything has negated the moral standards God set up that show us how we're to live.
True, there was no body of Christ while Jesus walked the earth. But His directive to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness is a common theme - even in the Old Testament, fear God and keep His commandments for this is the whole duty of man, Ecclesiastes 12:13. vpw's philosophy took license with the grace of God. He translated - we're not saved by works - into the flesh is of little or no consequence - it doesn't matter what you do now! Rules? We don't need no stinking rules!
I put equal value on every book in the Bible.The importance of the gospels lies in the fact that they contain the teachings of my Lord [teachings conveyed in word and deed!]. And according to John 14 - it is our loving obedience to His teachings that in part facilitates the communion of Father and Son with us - which does not even address the imperceptible work of the Holy Spirit also mentioned in that passage...
Actually, I think we can infer from the two great commandments [love God and neighbor]that you putting a stick in my eye or praying to moon men - would violate these commandments. That would lead me to think that what you're suggesting is forbidden.
It does not specify in John 14 how this communion works. And I don't think I have suggested how it should work...I believe God can do a lot more than what vpw gave Him credit for - like his assumption behind the Great Principle - "God can only speak to what He is - which is Spirit."
Actually I agree with you on both points T-Bone I'm glad you saw the logic in the humor, speaking of inferring since you were I think we can infer from
Luke 11
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
This would have been the perfect opportunity for Jesus to say pray to me, to Mary, to angels, or add whoever you like here____ yet when asked this question lacking is any mention of anyone but The Father, Had Jesus wanted to get this great important message across that he was large and in charge of the prayer team would it not have made sense to take this wonderful opportunity to honestly answer this question. Are we to infer that he just misrepresented the answer on purpose when he really knew that they should be praying to him? Much like one could infer from scripture that poking a stick in someone's eye is not a good thing we can also infer from this record and many more adding the lack of other choices that are nowhere in the scripture to be found and get the point. Which is prayer is to the Father God not the son Jesus. Nowhere did Jesus say pray to him or do we see any one else doing so, including the disciples who obviously figured out what he meant when he taught them the answer to their question.
Actually I agree with you on both points T-Bone I'm glad you saw the logic in the humor, speaking of inferring since you were I think we can infer from
Luke 11
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
This would have been the perfect opportunity for Jesus to say pray to me, to Mary, to angels, or add whoever you like here____ yet when asked this question lacking is any mention of anyone but The Father, Had Jesus wanted to get this great important message across that he was large and in charge of the prayer team would it not have made sense to take this wonderful opportunity to honestly answer this question. Are we to infer that he just misrepresented the answer on purpose when he really knew that they should be praying to him? Much like one could infer from scripture that poking a stick in someone's eye is not a good thing we can also infer from this record and many more adding the lack of other choices that are nowhere in the scripture to be found and get the point. Which is prayer is to the Father God not the son Jesus. Nowhere did Jesus say pray to him or do we see any one else doing so, including the disciples who obviously figured out what he meant when he taught them the answer to their question.
Ah, but were you really joking when you posted that?
Thinking about the points in my post # 1678, especially from Bruce's Jesus: Lord and Savior – of God bestowing unreserved honor upon His Son, giving Him a name above every name, the Lord's Prayer means a lot more to me now – as expressed by Edmund P. Clowney in the New Dictionary of Biblical Theology, editors T. Desmond Alexander, Brian S. Rosner, D.A. Carson, Graeme Goldsworthy, page 695 under Prayer: "…Jesus taught his disciples to pray in the [very brief] 'Lord's Prayer'. We pray to our Father to hallow his name in his Son, and to bring in his rule in the kingdom of his Son…"
As I mentioned in post # 1587, it appears Paul's prayer in II Corinthians may be to the Lord Jesus Christ, if the "My strength" is associated with "the power of Christ" in verse 9:
II Corinthians 12:7-10 NKJV
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
"Strength" and "power" in verse 9 are the same Greek word dunamis [strong's # 1411].
The following is from Systematic Theology: AN Introduction to Biblical Doctrine by Wayne Grudem, pages 380 & 381:
"…Though there is a clear pattern of prayer directly to God the Father through the Son [Matthew 6:9; John 16:23; Ephesians 5:20] there are indications that prayer spoken directly to Jesus is also appropriate. The fact that it was Jesus himself who appointed all of the apostles, suggests that the prayer in Acts 1:24 is addressed to him: "Lord who knows the hearts of all men, show which one of these two you have chosen…"
The dying Stephen prays, "Lord Jesus receive my spirit" [Acts 7:59]. The conversation between Ananias and "the Lord" in Acts 9:10-16 is with Jesus, because in verse 17 Ananias tells Saul, "The Lord Jesus…has sent me that you may regain your sight." The prayer, "Our Lord, come!" is addressed to Jesus, as is the prayer in Revelation 22:20, "Come, Lord Jesus!" And Paul also prayed to "the Lord" in II Corinthians 12:8 concerning his thorn in the flesh."
Moreover, the fact that Jesus is "a merciful and faithful high priest" [Hebrews 2:17] who is able to "sympathize with our weaknesses" [Hebrews 4:15], is viewed as an encouragement to us to come boldly before the "throne of grace" in prayer "that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need" [Hebrews 4:16]. These verses must give us encouragement to come directly to Jesus in prayer, expecting that he will sympathize with our weaknesses as we pray…"
End of excerpts
How did the first recipients of these epistles understand references of prayer to "The Lord" ? Is it possible they can be applied to the Lord Jesus Christ - our faithful high priest...who sits at The Father's right hand - vested with the Father's authority and power - and as such He is authorized by the Father to co-reign.
Ok. You've mentioned this a few times so I had to give my opinion. You don't mind do you???:)
GOD has a PLAN! PERIOD. NO PLAN B!
He has a plan, and He sticks to the plan, and gets it accomplished anyway HE needs to. He is using humans to accomplish HIS PLAN, so HE is flexible. Needs to add/change, help, move, shake, rattle and roll different ways....but it is always the same PLAN!
To keep saying God goes to plan B is saying that man is in the drivers seat and God is subject to our wills.
This is not so.
God has a plan (Will) and He allows us to surrender to it to accomplish His goals or we can get out of the way. He'll find someone who will get it done.
Either way, God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
God's heart was to have Isreal accept the Messiah, yes, but His plan all along was for everyone to be His kids, not just one group of people. We (the church, Gentiles ) were not Plan B.
Thank you, you may continue............................
He is "using" humans, huh? Always the same plan? No. Not true.
Gen 6:6,7 both say it repenteth the Lord that He had made man. 1 Sam. 15:11 says it repenteth me (God) that I have set up Saul to be king. Now, if the bible can phrase God's "feelings" in this manner, then I can say God went to plan B. No different. This does not put man in the driver's seat any more than it would put your kids in the driver's seat if you paid for their college and they flunked out. You may have to tell them they were on their own (rules changed) or you may try to convince them to do better at a different college, but that doesn't put them in the driver's seat, it means you have to shift gears and change the rules in order to accomodate their mistakes.
quote: Speaking of "rules", Jesus summed up the entire written Word of God available in His day by saying everything revolved around two laws - love God and neighbor...Paul and James echo the same thing in the epistles: Romans 13:9, 10; 15:2; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8...I don't think anything has negated the moral standards God set up that show us how we're to live.
The rules before Gen. 3 are in Gen. 2:16,17. The changes in those rules are in Gen. 3:9-24. Then the changes after the flood are begun in Gen. 9:1-17 and amended in Gen. 11:1-9. Plan B is merely a figure of speech meaning that the best possible scenerio is not possible any more and must shift to the second best possible scenerio. Plan B implies preparation, no curve ball.
In Matt 22:37-39 Jesus stated the 2 great commandments in the law, but he changed the wording in John 13:34,35. He even called it a new commandment. He said love one another as I have loved you, not as thyself. 1 John 2:7,8 refer to it.
verse 7 - Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning (Love God with all your heart soul mind and strength).
vwese 8 - Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you, because the darkness is past and the true light now shineth.
Love one another as I (Jesus) have loved you is the new commandment. The reason it's stated in Romans and Galatians as "love thy neighbor as thyself" is because with Christ in you, to love someone as thyself IS to love as Christ loved. That was not possible before Pentecost. I don't care how many Christians have failed to love as Christ loved, the body of Christ is spared from wrath and will get rewards for the good and no rewards for the bad. Simple.
....In Matt 22:37-39 Jesus stated the 2 great commandments in the law, but he changed the wording in John 13:34,35. He even called it a new commandment. He said love one another as I have loved you, not as thyself. 1 John 2:7,8 refer to it....
Love one another as I (Jesus) have loved you is the new commandment. The reason it's stated in Romans and Galatians as "love thy neighbor as thyself" is because with Christ in you, to love someone as thyself IS to love as Christ loved.....
You have an interesting point with the new commandment in John 13. It seems Jesus is raising the standard - by now setting His sacrificial love as a model...But then you've got me confused with your later statement.
Agreeing here with someone, although I'm not sure who but -
Jesus clearly directs prayer to God, the Father.
The attitude to God in "prayer" is, to my understanding, to the Creator, the Father, the giver of life and provider of what life contains.
A "relationship" or "fellowship" with Jesus Christ would be something everyone who wants to be a Christian should desire and pursue, as well as recognize. I say recognize because God has a will, an intent and purpose, for Jesus Christ, and that to be "Lord".
If God wants us to have a Father/Child relationship with Him, and Jesus Christ has that same relationship with God, as well as the unique position of being "Lord" amongst all, it seems to me that it should be fairly easy to develop that relationship with God and Jesus Christ without getting the two confused.
I wouldn't "pray" to Jesus Christ in the sense of recognizing Him as God. God's will to me is accomplished by Jesus Christ. God "wills", Jesus Christ "does". I think to ask Jesus Christ in prayer for something He was sent to do is a little confusing, or at least the way I see it coming at us from the bible.
It's much simpler and seems to flow with how Jesus Christ Himself spoke and acted by seeing that He shared fully as the "son of God" in God's divine nature, more than a "perfect" or Extra AAA High Grade man so to speak, and the actual "son of God".
Jesus Christ is identifiable, God is described by the qualities he exhibits - creator, giver, light, love, etc. God is never identified completely in the bible, really, when you think about it. It's impossible to articulate, but we can see what He does and understand His "will" by what God does, and when it's spoken or written. Or lived, as we see in Jesus Christ.
You have an interesting point with the new commandment in John 13. It seems Jesus is raising the standard - by now setting His sacrificial love as a model...But then you've got me confused with your later statement.
As you say, Jesus set the bar higher with the new commandment, but the verses you referred to in Romans and Galatians seem to say that love your neighbor as yourself is the same as John 13's love as Christ loved. I'm saying that the difference is that in John 13, BEFORE it was Christ in you, the 2 were different (not even possible for natural men), but in Romans and Galatians, AFTER Pentecost, they were one and the same.
Jesus didn't know he would have to die until John 13; before that he was proceeding as if Israel would accept him. That's why the new commandment came then. Even in 1 John where I quoted, the next thing said after the new commandment is about treating your brother right and not walking in darkness. Jesus was actually speaking prophetically at the time he said to love one another as he had loved them. IMO it takes holy spirit to agape.
You may have missed this, dooj, but there was a time-and possibly it's STILL true-
when cg was teaching this very thing-
that God is NOT omniscient, that God is NOT transcendant,
that God exists in the present with us (as opposed to inhabiting eternity),
that God WAS surprised and taken aback when events happened-
specifically using Genesis 3 as an example.
John APPEARS to be saying much the same thing.
I've heard this taught, but not as rubber stamped "doctrine" but as something to consider. I'm thinking God's pov/man's pov. We were taught in twi that Samuel and Kings are man's pov while Chronicles is God's pov, Examples given were Saul's death (impaling himself in Sam but transgressing against the word of God in Chronicles) and the Lord moving David to number Israel in Sam but Satan provoking him to do it in Chronicles.
To me, it doesn't matter how it's phrased; from man's pov God definitely changed the rules in the places I referred to. I don't think God was surprised at anything, but He didn't make us to be robots. You don't like the phrase 'plan B'? Oh, well.
TBone, what's your best guess as to what Paul means by "Christ in you"?...
Since you put it that way – affording me some leeway – I can state emphatically and specifically – I don't know . Seriously though – I'm thinking it echoes the communion mentioned in the John 14 passage:
John 14:23 NKJV
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."
Colossians 1:27 NKJV
To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
I don't think I can appreciate this communion aspect enough – or that my love for Him or obedience to Him is capable of opening this treasure chest. I guess that's where the Holy Spirit's role comes into play:
John 16:5-15 NKJV
5 But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?' 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
I've read that as well Dan. Of course that would make sense with Christ being the Head of the Body.
I don't know much about Greek. I do know that in some languages, "Dhrist in you (sing.) would put the emphasis on "each and every individual," as opposed to collectively.
There has got to be someone here that knows more about Greek...
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jhn 14:17 [Even]the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
It's definitely "in". I've given some thought over the years to Paul's startling terminology.... being "in" Christ and Christ being "in" us. It's spacial terminology. But it's describing something that transcends "location."
The distinction between Christ in you, and Christ among you, would have massive repercussions for TWI people.
Christ tells us in Revelation he "walks among the churches." Thus, he is among us today - here and present and always has been. He is not absent or missing, he walks among his kids and Church today as the Head.
We know we have holy spirit within us. We are sealed with the holy spirit of promise. It is in us, it is our "token" - our portal to eternity and a New, coming kingdom and our guarantee of entrance into it and that in order to enter into it, we will be new creations (awesome!).
Now, I think the problem is: Is "Christ in you" the same as having "holy spirit" in you?
I don't think they are.
If its Christ in you, and holy spirit in you, then you have two separate spiritual things living in you because Christ and the comforter, i.e., the holy spirit which he promised to send, are two distinct beings. So we know this can't be correct, we don't have two distinct beings in us.
If, in the greek, it truly is Christ among you, well, then it fits. We have holy spirit in us, and Christ walks among us and guides us.
Then, we see, the ministry VP built on this phrase - this one main, major phrase, the mantra we chanted over and over - its Christ in you, Christ in you - is totally in error.
Talk about a mega-error.
Dan, I guess we were posting at the same time. Great post :)
Yes, Dan, I was thinking the same thing concerning ''Christ in you" and what we do with the ''set-up'' if we stick to TWI version. It just doesn't make sense.
But to say (small h, s) holy spirit , Christ in you......................then of course gotta add the ''God in Christ in you in manifestation..........................." blah blah..............Can't forget TWI version of holy spirit being an "it'' not a ''he'' ya know......
I don't see how ''a man'' who ascended into heaven can be in us too? He sends the comforter, says he (HS) will guide us in all truth, be our teacher, yet says he(JC) is in us and with us?
that is more confusing trying to keep them separate and making this fit, than the trinity itself!
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
anotherDan
OMG! what a cool post! Thank you, Bliss!
Waysider, well, if you're ever in the area....
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T-Bone
You're assuming all the members of a visible church are also members of Christ's invisible church. Why are there passages that warn of false prophets, false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing, wolves coming in not sparing the flock?
What rules are you talking about? What plan B? What about the sovereignty of God? Do you think what Adam and Eve did threw God a curve - Oh my gosh, I didn't anticipate this - now what do I do? What does that say about the counsel of the Lord? Like Bliss said - God's plan - His only plan - is His will! That does go against vpw's words of "wisdom" circumstances changed so the revelation changed.
Speaking of "rules", Jesus summed up the entire written Word of God available in His day by saying everything revolved around two laws - love God and neighbor...Paul and James echo the same thing in the epistles: Romans 13:9, 10; 15:2; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8...I don't think anything has negated the moral standards God set up that show us how we're to live.
True, there was no body of Christ while Jesus walked the earth. But His directive to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness is a common theme - even in the Old Testament, fear God and keep His commandments for this is the whole duty of man, Ecclesiastes 12:13. vpw's philosophy took license with the grace of God. He translated - we're not saved by works - into the flesh is of little or no consequence - it doesn't matter what you do now! Rules? We don't need no stinking rules!
I put equal value on every book in the Bible.The importance of the gospels lies in the fact that they contain the teachings of my Lord [teachings conveyed in word and deed!]. And according to John 14 - it is our loving obedience to His teachings that in part facilitates the communion of Father and Son with us - which does not even address the imperceptible work of the Holy Spirit also mentioned in that passage...
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anotherDan
<---------- taking notes
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Ham
glad somebody can be optimistic about everything..
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WhiteDove
Actually I agree with you on both points T-Bone I'm glad you saw the logic in the humor, speaking of inferring since you were I think we can infer from
Luke 11
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
This would have been the perfect opportunity for Jesus to say pray to me, to Mary, to angels, or add whoever you like here____ yet when asked this question lacking is any mention of anyone but The Father, Had Jesus wanted to get this great important message across that he was large and in charge of the prayer team would it not have made sense to take this wonderful opportunity to honestly answer this question. Are we to infer that he just misrepresented the answer on purpose when he really knew that they should be praying to him? Much like one could infer from scripture that poking a stick in someone's eye is not a good thing we can also infer from this record and many more adding the lack of other choices that are nowhere in the scripture to be found and get the point. Which is prayer is to the Father God not the son Jesus. Nowhere did Jesus say pray to him or do we see any one else doing so, including the disciples who obviously figured out what he meant when he taught them the answer to their question.
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T-Bone
Ah, but were you really joking when you posted that?
Thinking about the points in my post # 1678, especially from Bruce's Jesus: Lord and Savior – of God bestowing unreserved honor upon His Son, giving Him a name above every name, the Lord's Prayer means a lot more to me now – as expressed by Edmund P. Clowney in the New Dictionary of Biblical Theology, editors T. Desmond Alexander, Brian S. Rosner, D.A. Carson, Graeme Goldsworthy, page 695 under Prayer: "…Jesus taught his disciples to pray in the [very brief] 'Lord's Prayer'. We pray to our Father to hallow his name in his Son, and to bring in his rule in the kingdom of his Son…"
As I mentioned in post # 1587, it appears Paul's prayer in II Corinthians may be to the Lord Jesus Christ, if the "My strength" is associated with "the power of Christ" in verse 9:
II Corinthians 12:7-10 NKJV
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
"Strength" and "power" in verse 9 are the same Greek word dunamis [strong's # 1411].
The following is from Systematic Theology: AN Introduction to Biblical Doctrine by Wayne Grudem, pages 380 & 381:
"…Though there is a clear pattern of prayer directly to God the Father through the Son [Matthew 6:9; John 16:23; Ephesians 5:20] there are indications that prayer spoken directly to Jesus is also appropriate. The fact that it was Jesus himself who appointed all of the apostles, suggests that the prayer in Acts 1:24 is addressed to him: "Lord who knows the hearts of all men, show which one of these two you have chosen…"
The dying Stephen prays, "Lord Jesus receive my spirit" [Acts 7:59]. The conversation between Ananias and "the Lord" in Acts 9:10-16 is with Jesus, because in verse 17 Ananias tells Saul, "The Lord Jesus…has sent me that you may regain your sight." The prayer, "Our Lord, come!" is addressed to Jesus, as is the prayer in Revelation 22:20, "Come, Lord Jesus!" And Paul also prayed to "the Lord" in II Corinthians 12:8 concerning his thorn in the flesh."
Moreover, the fact that Jesus is "a merciful and faithful high priest" [Hebrews 2:17] who is able to "sympathize with our weaknesses" [Hebrews 4:15], is viewed as an encouragement to us to come boldly before the "throne of grace" in prayer "that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need" [Hebrews 4:16]. These verses must give us encouragement to come directly to Jesus in prayer, expecting that he will sympathize with our weaknesses as we pray…"
End of excerpts
How did the first recipients of these epistles understand references of prayer to "The Lord" ? Is it possible they can be applied to the Lord Jesus Christ - our faithful high priest...who sits at The Father's right hand - vested with the Father's authority and power - and as such He is authorized by the Father to co-reign.
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johniam
He is "using" humans, huh? Always the same plan? No. Not true.
Gen 6:6,7 both say it repenteth the Lord that He had made man. 1 Sam. 15:11 says it repenteth me (God) that I have set up Saul to be king. Now, if the bible can phrase God's "feelings" in this manner, then I can say God went to plan B. No different. This does not put man in the driver's seat any more than it would put your kids in the driver's seat if you paid for their college and they flunked out. You may have to tell them they were on their own (rules changed) or you may try to convince them to do better at a different college, but that doesn't put them in the driver's seat, it means you have to shift gears and change the rules in order to accomodate their mistakes.
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anotherDan
I still think that nothing I can do can "make" God "change gears." God has a plan. There is no Plan B. I'm the vessel. He's the potter.
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johniam
quote: Speaking of "rules", Jesus summed up the entire written Word of God available in His day by saying everything revolved around two laws - love God and neighbor...Paul and James echo the same thing in the epistles: Romans 13:9, 10; 15:2; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8...I don't think anything has negated the moral standards God set up that show us how we're to live.
The rules before Gen. 3 are in Gen. 2:16,17. The changes in those rules are in Gen. 3:9-24. Then the changes after the flood are begun in Gen. 9:1-17 and amended in Gen. 11:1-9. Plan B is merely a figure of speech meaning that the best possible scenerio is not possible any more and must shift to the second best possible scenerio. Plan B implies preparation, no curve ball.
In Matt 22:37-39 Jesus stated the 2 great commandments in the law, but he changed the wording in John 13:34,35. He even called it a new commandment. He said love one another as I have loved you, not as thyself. 1 John 2:7,8 refer to it.
verse 7 - Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning (Love God with all your heart soul mind and strength).
vwese 8 - Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you, because the darkness is past and the true light now shineth.
Love one another as I (Jesus) have loved you is the new commandment. The reason it's stated in Romans and Galatians as "love thy neighbor as thyself" is because with Christ in you, to love someone as thyself IS to love as Christ loved. That was not possible before Pentecost. I don't care how many Christians have failed to love as Christ loved, the body of Christ is spared from wrath and will get rewards for the good and no rewards for the bad. Simple.
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doojable
Since God is omnicient, I can't see how there can be any Plan A, Plan B, Plan C...
There is only the will of God. The only changes come because we as humans with finite knowlege have to identify different plans.
Do you really think that God was surprised and taken aback during those times that we percieve the rules changing?
I think not...
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T-Bone
You have an interesting point with the new commandment in John 13. It seems Jesus is raising the standard - by now setting His sacrificial love as a model...But then you've got me confused with your later statement.
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WordWolf
You may have missed this, dooj, but there was a time-and possibly it's STILL true-
when cg was teaching this very thing-
that God is NOT omniscient, that God is NOT transcendant,
that God exists in the present with us (as opposed to inhabiting eternity),
that God WAS surprised and taken aback when events happened-
specifically using Genesis 3 as an example.
John APPEARS to be saying much the same thing.
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socks
Agreeing here with someone, although I'm not sure who but -
Jesus clearly directs prayer to God, the Father.
The attitude to God in "prayer" is, to my understanding, to the Creator, the Father, the giver of life and provider of what life contains.
A "relationship" or "fellowship" with Jesus Christ would be something everyone who wants to be a Christian should desire and pursue, as well as recognize. I say recognize because God has a will, an intent and purpose, for Jesus Christ, and that to be "Lord".
If God wants us to have a Father/Child relationship with Him, and Jesus Christ has that same relationship with God, as well as the unique position of being "Lord" amongst all, it seems to me that it should be fairly easy to develop that relationship with God and Jesus Christ without getting the two confused.
I wouldn't "pray" to Jesus Christ in the sense of recognizing Him as God. God's will to me is accomplished by Jesus Christ. God "wills", Jesus Christ "does". I think to ask Jesus Christ in prayer for something He was sent to do is a little confusing, or at least the way I see it coming at us from the bible.
It's much simpler and seems to flow with how Jesus Christ Himself spoke and acted by seeing that He shared fully as the "son of God" in God's divine nature, more than a "perfect" or Extra AAA High Grade man so to speak, and the actual "son of God".
Jesus Christ is identifiable, God is described by the qualities he exhibits - creator, giver, light, love, etc. God is never identified completely in the bible, really, when you think about it. It's impossible to articulate, but we can see what He does and understand His "will" by what God does, and when it's spoken or written. Or lived, as we see in Jesus Christ.
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johniam
As you say, Jesus set the bar higher with the new commandment, but the verses you referred to in Romans and Galatians seem to say that love your neighbor as yourself is the same as John 13's love as Christ loved. I'm saying that the difference is that in John 13, BEFORE it was Christ in you, the 2 were different (not even possible for natural men), but in Romans and Galatians, AFTER Pentecost, they were one and the same.
Jesus didn't know he would have to die until John 13; before that he was proceeding as if Israel would accept him. That's why the new commandment came then. Even in 1 John where I quoted, the next thing said after the new commandment is about treating your brother right and not walking in darkness. Jesus was actually speaking prophetically at the time he said to love one another as he had loved them. IMO it takes holy spirit to agape.
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anotherDan
TBone, what's your best guess as to what Paul means by "Christ in you"?
edit: great post, Socks!
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johniam
quote:
You may have missed this, dooj, but there was a time-and possibly it's STILL true-
when cg was teaching this very thing-
that God is NOT omniscient, that God is NOT transcendant,
that God exists in the present with us (as opposed to inhabiting eternity),
that God WAS surprised and taken aback when events happened-
specifically using Genesis 3 as an example.
John APPEARS to be saying much the same thing.
I've heard this taught, but not as rubber stamped "doctrine" but as something to consider. I'm thinking God's pov/man's pov. We were taught in twi that Samuel and Kings are man's pov while Chronicles is God's pov, Examples given were Saul's death (impaling himself in Sam but transgressing against the word of God in Chronicles) and the Lord moving David to number Israel in Sam but Satan provoking him to do it in Chronicles.
To me, it doesn't matter how it's phrased; from man's pov God definitely changed the rules in the places I referred to. I don't think God was surprised at anything, but He didn't make us to be robots. You don't like the phrase 'plan B'? Oh, well.
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doojable
God did make us to be robots, true. Our POV and His are different.
I'm not going to argue semantics here.
My point is that God only alters things in a response to keep us "on track." IMHO
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T-Bone
Since you put it that way – affording me some leeway – I can state emphatically and specifically – I don't know
. Seriously though – I'm thinking it echoes the communion mentioned in the John 14 passage:
John 14:23 NKJV
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."
Colossians 1:27 NKJV
To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
I don't think I can appreciate this communion aspect enough – or that my love for Him or obedience to Him is capable of opening this treasure chest. I guess that's where the Holy Spirit's role comes into play:
John 16:5-15 NKJV
5 But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?' 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
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anotherDan
Thanks, T. That helps a lot.
I think the "you" in "Christ in you" is plural, leading some translators to render it, "Christ among you." What do you think?
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doojable
I've read that as well Dan. Of course that would make sense with Christ being the Head of the Body.
I don't know much about Greek. I do know that in some languages, "Dhrist in you (sing.) would put the emphasis on "each and every individual," as opposed to collectively.
There has got to be someone here that knows more about Greek...
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anotherDan
It's definitely "in". I've given some thought over the years to Paul's startling terminology.... being "in" Christ and Christ being "in" us. It's spacial terminology. But it's describing something that transcends "location."
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Sunesis
Hmm, that's a very good question.
The distinction between Christ in you, and Christ among you, would have massive repercussions for TWI people.
Christ tells us in Revelation he "walks among the churches." Thus, he is among us today - here and present and always has been. He is not absent or missing, he walks among his kids and Church today as the Head.
We know we have holy spirit within us. We are sealed with the holy spirit of promise. It is in us, it is our "token" - our portal to eternity and a New, coming kingdom and our guarantee of entrance into it and that in order to enter into it, we will be new creations (awesome!).
Now, I think the problem is: Is "Christ in you" the same as having "holy spirit" in you?
I don't think they are.
If its Christ in you, and holy spirit in you, then you have two separate spiritual things living in you because Christ and the comforter, i.e., the holy spirit which he promised to send, are two distinct beings. So we know this can't be correct, we don't have two distinct beings in us.
If, in the greek, it truly is Christ among you, well, then it fits. We have holy spirit in us, and Christ walks among us and guides us.
Then, we see, the ministry VP built on this phrase - this one main, major phrase, the mantra we chanted over and over - its Christ in you, Christ in you - is totally in error.
Talk about a mega-error.
Dan, I guess we were posting at the same time. Great post :)
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rascal
It would explain an awfull lot.
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bliss
Yes, Dan, I was thinking the same thing concerning ''Christ in you" and what we do with the ''set-up'' if we stick to TWI version. It just doesn't make sense.
But to say (small h, s) holy spirit , Christ in you......................then of course gotta add the ''God in Christ in you in manifestation..........................." blah blah..............Can't forget TWI version of holy spirit being an "it'' not a ''he'' ya know......
I don't see how ''a man'' who ascended into heaven can be in us too? He sends the comforter, says he (HS) will guide us in all truth, be our teacher, yet says he(JC) is in us and with us?
that is more confusing trying to keep them separate and making this fit, than the trinity itself!
good sunesis....:)
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