A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL

[doojable]

According to Scripture we all have a sin nature and Christians have the new creation within, at war. Hence, two natures.

We determine our lifestyle by the choices we make. You want to call that "juggling" - fine. I think the term has too much chance and not enough choice.

[doojable]

Johniam

Here's a little suggestion for you, that might make your posts easier to read.

When you see a post you want to quote, click on the quote/reply boxes at the bottom of that post.

That will insert that post into yours.

If you don't want the whole post, delete the sections you don't want and put *snip* on both sides of the section you have saved.

That will put it into a "quote bubble" and the *snips* will show that you are *dividing* it out of the larger context.

Let's see if this another case where a person (or persons) know what to do but choose not to do it."

WHO is the first line in the following post addressed to?

I stand by my post; all your objections are irrelevant and based on ignorance.

Others got it, that fruit is either good or bad. All your verbage is intended to cloud the issue.

quote: Bottom Line Is --- Docvic sowed more *bad seed* than *good seed*.

Don't be too sure. None of us speak for all 100,000 plus who took pfal. Why does it have to be all or nothing? Why can't VP be rewarded for the good that he did and not for the bad that he did?

quote: QUOTE(johniam @ Sep 1 2007, 11:11 PM)

quote: Spiritual fruit in a person's life is indicative of the nature and health of the "tree."

Agreed, but the "tree" is two fold: God's supply is always going to be there, but the person's desire and attitude are not always going to be there. Thus, sometimes good fruit, sometimes not.

So we basically said the same thing on this point.

Any apple tree can be healthy one year and in a drought the next.

Yes, and so can peoples' fruit.

By the way. T-Bone is right. The scripture he quoted starts out defining the nature of the "tree." The point I was making referred to Galatians and fruit in general.

When it comes to being a false prophet, that tree is bad by God's definition. If you don't like it, go argue with management. (I threw that in there since I knew you'd like a quote from VP.)

BTW - rewarding VP for good isn't our job. That's up to God. I still say that there some folks here that choose to be the watchmen who sound a warning when they see trouble.

[T-Bone]

...Yes there are references to prayer to the LORD. That does not mean it is the same person,there are several Mikes here at GreaseSpot we are not the same person just because we have the same name. One would have to look at the usage of lord , note in the passage below that you offered the two lords. One is all caps one is not ,one is Jehovah, one is adoni ,properly translated as lord but not used of GOD in the Bible...

Thanks, I'm glad you brought that up! Your post inspired me to review that Psalm, a New Testament reference to it by Jesus, Lenski's commentary on Matthew, and F.F. Bruce's Jesus: Lord & Savior – and thought there was some post worthy stuff:

Psalm 110:1 NKJV

The LORD said to my Lord,

"Sit at My right hand,

Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."

Matthew 22:41-46 NKJV

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?"

They said to Him, " The Son of David."

43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying:

44 ' The LORD said to my Lord,

" Sit at My right hand,

Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"'?

45 If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?" 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.

R.C.H. Lenski comments on the Psalm/Matthew passages in The Interpretation of St. Matthew's Gospel, pages 888-891:

"…"The Lord said" is more expressive in the Hebrew: ne' um Yahweh, "communication of Jehovah," …the recipient of the communication is added…"to my Lord," 'Adonai. The fact that this is David's future son is understood by all concerned, is placed beyond question by Jesus himself, and is accepted by both Jewish and Christian exegesis. Yet this his own son David, who as the king had only Yahweh above him, calls "my Lord," and the kind of 'Adon or "Lord" he has in mind is brought out by the description of him given in this psalm: he is one who sits at Yahweh's right hand, one whose enemies are made his footstool…No wonder David called this son of his "my Lord."…

…This is the Messiah, the God-man, and thus even King David's "Lord." Note that Yahweh is here distinct from 'Adon; a clear revelation in the Old Testament of the persons of the Godhead. Here one divine person speaks to the other…The Jews' sole objection was due to the fact that Jesus, the lowly man of Nazareth, called himself the Son, and that men received him as such. David was a prophet who by the illumination and the inspiration "in the Spirit" wrote as he did…

…Here divine exaltation is predicated of David's son, the Messiah…Yahweh's right hand is his divine power and majesty, therefore also it is called "the right hand of power." Compare the parallel passages on God's right hand. To be sitting at God's right hand is to exercise this power and this majesty to the fullest extent. This invitation to sit is thus the divine exaltation of Christ's human nature…When the Son assumed our human nature he communicated all his divine attributes to that nature. Just as a king who marries a humble maiden by virtue of that marriage makes her a queen so that she shares in all his royal prerogatives, so the Son did when he wedded our human nature…

…The terrible error of the Pharisees is here exposed. Their conception of the Messiah was that he was David's son and only David's son, a mere human Messiah, however great and mighty he might be in his human glory and power. His deity was a closed book to their blind reading of Scripture. They dared not say that he was not to be David's son; they knew that he would be. They dared not deny David's inspired word that the Messiah would at the same time be David's Lord and thus very God. Yet the Pharisees would not admit the Messiah's deity…"

End of excerpts

And from Jesus: Lord & Savior by F.F. Bruce, pages 200-204:

"…in the resurrection narratives of the Gospels Jesus is called 'the Lord' or 'my Lord' much more freely. This is consistent with Peter's declaration on the day of Pentecost that, by raising him from the dead and exalting him to his right had, God has made the crucified Jesus 'both Lord and Christ [Acts 2:36]…If the resurrection made no difference to his identity, it made a difference in the promulgation and recognition of his identity.

Peter based his declaration that the crucified Jesus was now 'both Lord and Christ' on the opening words of Psalm 110: 'The Lord says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand…" This oracle, in its original setting, was addressed by the God of Israel to the king of Israel, the Lord's anointed. As Peter applies the oracle, 'the Lord' who speaks is God the Father; 'my Lord' to whom he speaks is his Son, the Messiah…

In the Hebrew text of the psalm there is a clear distinction between the speaker and the one spoken to, for two different words are used: 'An oracle of Yahweh to my 'adon.' But when the Hebrew scriptures were translated from Hebrew into Greek, one and the same noun did service in both capacities: 'The kyrios said to my kyrios.' It is as kyrios that the risen Christ is invited to be enthroned at God's right hand…

…More than once we have referred to the hymn in praise of Christ's glory which is incorporated in Philippians 2:6-11…Therefore God in turn has highly exalted him and given him the name above every name, That at Jesus' name every knee should bend…And every tongue confess, 'Jesus Christ is Lord!...In response to Jesus' unreserved acceptance of a life of humble service, culminating in his vile and degrading death b crucifixion, God has bestowed unreserved honour on him.

The hymn includes echoes of Isaiah 52:13, where it is said of the submissive Servant of the Lord that, after his rejection and suffering, 'he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high, and also Isaiah 45:23, where the one true God swears by himself: 'To me every knee shall bend, every tongue make solemn confession.' But in the Christ-hymn it is this same God who decrees that every knee shall bend at Jesus' name and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

It is this same God, moreover, who declares in that part of the book of Isaiah , 'I am the Lord, that is my name; my glory I give to no other' [isaiah 42:8]. But now he shares his glory with the crucified Jesus by exalting him to universal supremacy and bestowing on him the name which is above every name – his own incommunicable name, 'The Lord.'…

…The possibility was suggested…that when the words 'The Lord said to my Lord' were read in the Greek Bible by people who had no access to the Hebrew text [where two different nouns are used] they might have been encouraged to equate the one Lord with the other. But in the Christ-hymn it is not a matter of inadvertently equating them: it is deliberately affirmed that God has conferred his own name, with the unique dignity attaching to it, on Jesus. It might not be appropriate to reword 'Jesus Christ is Lord' as 'Jesus Christ is Yahweh'; but nothing less than this is involved…"

…When the Apocalypse calls Jesus 'Lord of lords and King of kings' [Revelation 17:14] or 'King of kings and Lord of lords' [Revelation 19:16], there may be an echo of Deuteronomy 10:17, 'the Lord your God…Lord of lords', or of Daniel 2:47, where Nebuchadnezzar acknowledges that Daniel's God is 'God of gods and Lord of kings'…

…These New Testament writers, Paul and the others, were monotheistic Jews by upbringing and instinct. What possessed them to transfer to Jesus of Nazareth titles and activities which belonged to God alone? Nothing but the assurance that God himself had set a precedent by so highly exalting Jesus. He had declared his good pleasure 'that all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father' [John 5:23].

The ascription of such divine honours of Jesus cannot be put down to the New Testament writers' adoption of a strange technique of Old Testament interpretation. It must be put down rather to the impact made by the Jesus of history not only on those who saw and heard him and remained in his company during his ministry, but also on others who had never met him in this way but first came to know him as the risen Christ…"

End of excerpts

Edited September 2, 2007 by T-Bone

[Suda]

Great posts all. To T-Bone, a special

Suda

[Suda]

dougWS,

Welcome to the cafe. We're glad you're here. Here's something to go with the coffee from dmiller. Enjoy yourself as you stroll around and get comfortable.

Suda

[anotherDan]

dang! Suda, i want one of those!

[wrdsandwrks]

One would have to look at the usage of lord , note in the passage below that you offered the two lords. One is all caps one is not ,one is Jehovah, one is adoni ,properly translated as lord but not used of GOD in the Bible.

Psalm 110:1-6 NKJV

1 The LORD said to my Lord,

"Sit at My right hand,

Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."

WhiteDove, You said,

One would have to look at the usage of lord , note in the passage below that you offered the two lords. One is all caps one is not ,one is Jehovah, one is adoni ,properly translated as lord but not used of GOD in the Bible

This isn't so, the Hebrew word adon, translated here as Lord (It's actually adon, Lord, + the pronominal suffix i, my.) is used many times of God:

see:

Ps. 8:1,9; Ps. 97:5; Ps 114:7; Ps 135:5; Ps 136:3; Ps 147:5

Is. 1:24;3:1;10:16;10:33;

Dn 12:8

Hos 12:14

Mic. 4:13

Zech. 4:14;6:5

Mal. 3:1

Edited September 3, 2007 by wrdsandwrks

[Oakspear]

Do you have the spirit of error?

What's that?

[johniam]

quote: According to Scripture we all have a sin nature and Christians have the new creation within, at war. Hence, two natures.

We determine our lifestyle by the choices we make. You want to call that "juggling" - fine. I think the term has too much chance and not enough choice.

********************************************************************************

*****

Juggling takes skill. The analogy is not a 100% match, but time management is juggling. I certainly don't believe life is a gamble like some people I've met.

quote: BTW - rewarding VP for good isn't our job. That's up to God. I still say that there some folks here that choose to be the watchmen who sound a warning when they see trouble.

********************************************************************************

*****

Oh, but penalizing VP is OK? Watchman??? Yeah, let's be watchmen for a guy who's been dead for 22 years. Some watchmen.

Edited September 3, 2007 by johniam

[johniam]

quote: By the way. T-Bone is right. The scripture he quoted starts out defining the nature of the "tree."

**************************************************

That is irrelevant; there are no bad trees in the body of Christ and since Tbone said he values the gospels (when there was no body of Christ yet) more than the church epistles, he'll never understand that. Like I said, the standards of the gospels were as though Israel had accepted Jesus as the Messiah; they didn't so God had to go to plan B. You don't think this happened before?

There were standards in the garden of Eden, but in Gen. 3 something happened which negated those standards and the rules changed. Then God went to plan B again when He saw that every imagination of the thoughts of mankind's hearts were only evil continually (Gen 6:5). The rules changed again.

Then Moses led Israel out of Egypt, which led to the judges period in which Israel was basically a theocrasy, where religion and government were inter connected; but they wanted a king like "normal" nations, so God changed the rules AGAIN! Basically, mankind has screwed up everything God has tried to do for them. But He gave them one last chance.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem and eventually fulfilled all the work God wanted him to do, but Israel rejected Jesus, so God had to change the rules AGAIN! But this time God's high priest (that would be Jesus) has an unchangeable priesthood (Heb. 7:24) so mankind CAN'T screw it up. Not even a morally bankrupt VP (assuming it's all true, which I don't).

We are all members in particular of the body of Christ, born again of incorruptible seed unto a living hope reserved in heaven that fadeth not away. Love that's real not fade away! (brnk brnk brnk...BANK brnk) We got it, and if this good news isn't good enough for you, well then enjoy your suffering. I guess.

Edited September 3, 2007 by johniam

[WhiteDove]

adon[/i], translated here as Lord (It's actually adon, Lord, + the pronominal suffix i, my.) is used many times of God:

see:

Ps. 8:1,9; Ps. 97:5; Ps 114:7; Ps 135:5; Ps 136:3; Ps 147:5

Is. 1:24;3:1;10:16;10:33;

Dn 12:8

Hos 12:14

Mic. 4:13

Zech. 4:14;6:5

Mal. 3:1

This verse was referred to the Messiah by the Pharisees and by Jesus. It tells us that the relationship between God and Jesus is that of Deity and non-Deity. The Messiah is called adoni (my lord) and in every one of its 195 occurrences adoni (my lord) means a superior who is not God. Adonai on the other hand refers exclusively to the One God in all of its 449 occurrences. Adonai is the title of Deity and adoni never designates Deity.

Here is a link for you

Adoni

And another

Edited September 3, 2007 by WhiteDove

[doojable]

quote: Oh, but penalizing VP is OK? Watchman??? Yeah, let's be watchmen for a guy who's been dead for 22 years. Some watchmen.

Okay - maybe it's better your way...

Be a cheerleader for a guy who's been dead for 22 years.

Here's a clue...It's not about "the guy." It's about faulty doctrine that helped "the guy" become an immoral wannabe MOG.

It's just a little button John. Right there at the bottom right of your screen. It says,

"R E P L Y"

You press it and something magic happens - the post you quote is readible and distinguishable from your own words.

Unless you like giving off the impression that ALL the words in you posts are really your's. (Just look at that last post you did and think about it.) Or are you wanting to take credit for all these quotes - that might be sort of appropro... <_<

.

.

.

.

.

It should be about here.

Edited September 3, 2007 by doojable

[johniam]

You sound like you need a Tylenol.

[doojable]

Do you think before you post? Or do you close your eyes and hope for the best?

I'm going to bed. Tomorrow I'll wake up and be happy and healthy and with my kids. You? You'll still be you.

Good-night. Have a nice Labor Day.

Edited September 3, 2007 by doojable

[Ham]

so mankind CAN'T screw it up.

I think that's assuming a lot..

what if this generation lost it's one shot at this deal..

You know.. you've got something at stake in this as well as everybody else..

:)

[johniam]

Ham, what part of "unchangeable" or "incorruptible" don't you understand?

[wrdsandwrks]

Here is a link for you

Adoni

And another

This verse was referred to the Messiah by the Pharisees and by Jesus. It tells us that the relationship between God and Jesus is that of Deity and non-Deity. The Messiah is called adoni (my lord) and in every one of its 195 occurrences adoni (my lord) means a superior who is not God. Adonai on the other hand refers exclusively to the One God in all of its 449 occurrences. Adonai is the title of Deity and adoni never designates Deity.

Hi WhiteDove,

I read the articles at both of those links.

While it is true that adonai Strongs #136 is used only to refer to God, (Wigram's Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament pg 22) adon, Strongs #113 (Wigram pg 15) is used to refer to both human lords and the Lord God.

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Vol. 1pg 12 under adon) Lord, master, owner:

In the simple unsuffixed form or when pointed adoni or adona(y), for the first common singular suffix or with other pronominal suffixes, adon usually refers to men... However, ther are numerous passages, particularly in Psalms, where these forms, which are the only ones to apply to men, refer to God. Exodus 34:23 combine "the Lord, YHWH, the God of Israel"...

I think Anthony Buzzard's research is flawed. (But I'm sure he's a nice guy, Another Dan says so and I believe him.)

[WhiteDove]

'T-Bone

The point of my referencing the passages was to show instances of calling on the name of the Lord – i.e. prayer – are applied to both…You still are confused on Trinitarian doctrine – I'm not saying God the Father and Jesus the Son are the SAME person. It does appear to be some overlapping roles, one facilitating the other…I don't know…I'm not God…I don't pretend to have the inside scoop on how God works.

I am amused at the nitpicking arguments you throw out. Not worth my time to respond. Except for this one point here – because it really exemplifies the PFAL-mindset. The John 14 passage I referred to, doesn't give any details on how this communion occurs. If you're so adamant on specificity you ought to find a passage that indicates the standard communication format God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit uses.

Well glad I could be of service, apparently you were laughing so hard you missed the point as well. Calling on the name of the Lord is not always IE prayer to start with and as I said the usage must be determined. There are words that refer to Jesus the Messiah as Lord but ADONI (adonee) is reserved for human superiors not someone you would pray to as a deity. Your references to prayer are to God not Jesus the lord ,as one having authority. You offered these as proof that we should pray to Jesus as instances of such lets look.

Perhaps who to pray to is another point of distinction between Trinitarians and Unitarians. In my opinion, TWI made more of an issue out of it. To me, that's the influence of the PFAL-mindset that likes to draw up rigid rules, formulas, and principles for everything. While I do see passages that speak of prayer to the Father – I also find instances of prayer to "the Lord" – a title applied to Father and Son:

Psalm 110:1-6 NKJV

1 The LORD said to my Lord,

"Sit at My right hand,

Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."

2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.

Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

3 Your people shall be volunteers

In the day of Your power;

In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,

You have the dew of Your youth.

4 The LORD has sworn

And will not relent,

"You are a priest forever

According to the order of Melchizedek."

5 The Lord is at Your right hand;

He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.

6 He shall judge among the nations,

He shall fill the places with dead bodies,

He shall execute the heads of many countries.

Ok a prayer to God (Adonai) which also mentions Jesus the Messiah who is lord in our lives. hence (my lord) I missed the part about praying to Jesus in there. Where does it support that theory? I see God said to Jesus........ nothing about pray to Jesus.

A simple prayer calling on the name of the Lord:

Psalm 116:1-19 NKJV

1 I love the LORD, because He has heard

My voice and my supplications.

2 Because He has inclined His ear to me,

Therefore I will call upon Him as long as I live.

3 The pains of death surrounded me,

And the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me;

I found trouble and sorrow.

4 Then I called upon the name of the LORD:

"O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul!"

5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous;

Yes, our God is merciful.

6 The LORD preserves the simple;

I was brought low, and He saved me.

7 Return to your rest, O my soul,

For the LORD has dealt bountifully with you.

8 For You have delivered my soul from death,

My eyes from tears,

And my feet from falling.

9 I will walk before the LORD

In the land of the living.

10 I believed, therefore I spoke,

"I am greatly afflicted."

11 I said in my haste,

"All men are liars."

12 What shall I render to the LORD

For all His benefits toward me?

13 I will take up the cup of salvation,

And call upon the name of the LORD.

14 I will pay my vows to the LORD

Now in the presence of all His people.

15 Precious in the sight of the LORD

Is the death of His saints.

16 O LORD, truly I am Your servant;

I am Your servant, the son of Your maidservant;

You have loosed my bonds.

17 I will offer to You the sacrifice of thanksgiving,

And will call upon the name of the LORD.

18 I will pay my vows to the LORD

Now in the presence of all His people,

19 In the courts of the LORD's house,

In the midst of you, O Jerusalem.

Praise the LORD!

Ok another prayer to GOD (Adonai) Still not seeing those instances of praying to Jesus

Corinthians is addressed to all who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I Corinthians 1:1-3 NKJV

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ok here we have an address that speaks of calling on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord The word call is epikaleo - we do call on him as master, as head of the body, owner, ect. calling him according to his position of authority is not the same as praying to him. I might call upon the judge as your honor his authority title but I don't pray to him. So No prayer to Jesus here either.

II Corinthians has a noteworthy prayer by Paul to the Lord about a thorn in the flesh. The Lord's answer was that His own strength ["the power of Christ"] would empower Paul!

II Corinthians 12:7-10 NKJV

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Probably your best shot at a case. The word for lord kurios one having authority is used interchangeably in the scriptures. However the The record of this vision is further documented in verses 1-3

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

This was a vision not a real life prayer he speaks of being caught up into paradise which he had not physically been.

I do not find any Scripture forbidding prayer to the Son nor passages that require us to draw sharp distinctions in the "process of prayer" – for want of a better term – that sounds so cold and mechanical. I view prayer as basically talking to God. I also think this has bearing with the recent discussion of a personal walk with Jesus. I thought of a few verses:

I John 1:3-7 NKJV

3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

I Corinthians 1:9 NKJV

God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

"Fellowship" in the above verses is koinonia [strong's # 2842] in the Greek text. Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words by William Mounce, says of koinonia on page 247:

…koinonia generally means "fellowship, communion, participation, sharing." …Paul uses koinonia to refer to the intimate fellowship shared between the believing community and Jesus Christ …John uses koinonia to refer to the Christian fellowship we have with one another . This fellowship is centered in and based on our common fellowship with the Father and his Son, Jesus .

End of Excerpts

The relationship…fellowship…communion…of believers is very similar to our relationship with the Father and Son. I see prayer…talking…as a natural part of our relationship with the Father and Son. As I indicated in post # 1508 [and again not saying my prayer life is the norm – just revealing how I think] – when I pray – I don't usually draw a distinction of who I'm addressing – and I don't think it matters – He who listens to my prayers and knows my heart can sort it all out.

As I said

There is also no scripture forbidding that says specifically that I can not put a stick in your eye are you suggesting that we can do things just because there is no line that says we can't? It does not say we can not pray to moon men either do I get to say that's ok as well? When the scripture says pray to God and no other choices are given I guess he thought we could figure out what he meant.

Your choice how you choose to act, but it does not follow even the logical pattern of human communication Do you when you want to ask your boss a question walk into the room full of people and just ask amiss and let them sort it out or do you go to the person that you wish to find the answer from? If you are asking your friend for a ride do you also just walk into a room and say hey Joe can you give me a ride and let everyone there sort it out or do you walk up to Joe and ask him? It amazes me that people follow logical communication patters in life and yet when it comes to communicating with God they leave all those behind and dream up a new plan on how they think it should work. In summation there is /was no examples in the verses where anyone prayed to Jesus or where they were instructed to do so. If you want to your choice but claiming it is a biblical based thing is different. "fellowship, communion, participation, sharing is again different than praying I can do all of those here at GreaseSpot and not pray to people. You are stretching words that do not have a thing to do with praying and not the same as praying into meaning prayer and somehow adding Jesus into the picture when no mention of him is there in scripture..

[WhiteDove]

'wrdsandwrks']adonai[/i] Strongs #136 is used only to refer to God, (Wigram's Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament pg 22) adon, Strongs #113 (Wigram pg 15) is used to refer to both human lords and the Lord God.

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Vol. 1pg 12 under adon) Lord, master, owner:

In the simple unsuffixed form or when pointed adoni or adona(y), for the first common singular suffix or with other pronominal suffixes, adon usually refers to men... However, ther are numerous passages, particularly in Psalms, where these forms, which are the only ones to apply to men, refer to God. Exodus 34:23 combine "the Lord, YHWH, the God of Israel"...

I think Anthony Buzzard's research is flawed. (But I'm sure he's a nice guy, Another Dan says so and I believe him.)

Here is a couple of more that Anthony did not author.

Here

"Adoni" was used which was a common word for one who was a master and ruler.

Read Here

Edited September 3, 2007 by WhiteDove

[anotherDan]

I think Anthony Buzzard's research is flawed. (But I'm sure he's a nice guy, Another Dan says so and I believe him.)

I'm sure his research is flawed, too. Wrds says so, and I believe her.

He also pointed me and quite a few other folks around here back to Jesus, the Kingdom, the Gospels, and a few other important things that we were really missing. For that, we are grateful. None of us seems to have the whole package. I mean, not even T-Bone knows it all! :B)

Jesus is Lord.

Edited September 3, 2007 by anotherDan

[waysider]

quote: Now, regarding your question about a Christian "juggling" two lifestyles:

I didn't say 2 "lifestyles", I said 2 NATURES!!! This isn't the first time you've read a post of mine and changed the message. Do you have the spirit of error?

No, John, I don't believe I have the "spirit of error".

As a matter of clarification, might I point out this post was directed toward me?

I deduced that because the first sentence in the post contains a quote of something I said in an earlier post.

According to page 20 in the 1971 AC syllabus, the "spirit of error" is a spirit that causes one to be accident prone, facilitates deception, and causes one to be wrong in their "believing".

Some of the scripture references given were:

I John 4:6/ Revelation 12:9/ Matthew 24:24/ II John 7.

What I find curiously interesting is that on this very same page is a description and scripture references for a spirit called "spirit of leviathan" which supposedly is responsible for alcoholism.

How does one manage to find "spirit of error" on this page and completely miss "spirit of leviathan"?

Does one simply "cherry pick" the sections that they like and ignore the rest?

That, in itself, would seem a bit deceptive to me.

edited to change "a" spirit of error to "the" spirit of error in an effort maintain the integrity of the post I quoted.

Edited September 3, 2007 by waysider

[anotherDan]

waysider: you're smart, or wise, or both. I'd like to have you over for dinner sometime. How far are you from northern Delaware?

[waysider]

waysider: you're smart, or wise, or both. I'd like to have you over for dinner sometime. How far are you from northern Delaware?

I appreciate the compliment, AnotherDan, though I don't see myself as being any smarter or wiser than anyone else here. (I just happen to save old books and notes that come in handy for reference.)

Thanks for the dinner invitation but I'm sure it would be very, very cold by the time I got there.

[bliss]

were as though Israel had accepted Jesus as the Messiah; they didn't so God had to go to plan B. You don't think this happened before?

There were standards in the garden of Eden, but in Gen. 3 something happened which negated those standards and the rules changed. Then God went to plan B again when He saw that every imagination of the thoughts of mankind's hearts were only evil continually (Gen 6:5). The rules changed again.

Ok. You've mentioned this a few times so I had to give my opinion. You don't mind do you???:)

GOD has a PLAN! PERIOD. NO PLAN B!

He has a plan, and He sticks to the plan, and gets it accomplished anyway HE needs to. He is using humans to accomplish HIS PLAN, so HE is flexible. Needs to add/change, help, move, shake, rattle and roll different ways....but it is always the same PLAN!

To keep saying God goes to plan B is saying that man is in the drivers seat and God is subject to our wills.

This is not so.

God has a plan (Will) and He allows us to surrender to it to accomplish His goals or we can get out of the way. He'll find someone who will get it done.

Either way, God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

God's heart was to have Isreal accept the Messiah, yes, but His plan all along was for everyone to be His kids, not just one group of people. We (the church, Gentiles ) were not Plan B.

Thank you, you may continue............................

[WordWolf]

Or that God's understanding isn't infinite, or that He doesn't know all things.

Or that He doesn't know the end from the beginning.