A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL

[rascal]

John, Jesus said that we would be able to identify one another by the fruit we manifest.

So based on that...I`d have to say no...I guess I don`t believe he was a christian...shrug.

Session 7?? You have a man who habitually displayed *of the flesh* tendencies ...who was interpreting scriptures, (a type of man whom God tells us to stay away from btw) .... this creates a definite credibility issue. I think that there is more to it than he understood or taught...

I have met genuine christians, they get delivered from their fleshly ways. The don`t torture doctrine into making it excusable and teach others to do the same.

[rascal]

Good point waysider.

This guy taught that all things were lawfull as long as you could handle it. Thing is, apparently he couldn`t handle it...

Drink as much as you want....he was drunk and pathetic

Sex with whomever you want....the girls whom were drugged and raped...the ones whom were coerced believing that they must obey the mog...not to mention his poor wife were all deeply hurt by this...

Smoke...like a chimney because he could believe to be healthy.....didn`t happen.

There are consequences to certain behaviors...thats why God told us not to do them...

Wierwilles doctrine made it ok to do as you damned well pleased, regardless of who suffered...rather than seeking deliverance and healing...learning to live as one of the spirit.

Edited September 1, 2007 by rascal

[Larry N Moore]

Your posts have a pattern of questions after questions.

I never thought about it. You could be right but, I don't see anything wrong in asking questions -- especially when something said doesn't make sense to me.

IMO, at times, you phrase the question in such a way as to denigrate the poster.....NOT to really add to the discussion.

Well, I think you're wrong on both accounts. You could easily show me some examples supporting your assertion but then that endeavor would turn this topic into being about me. Oh wait a minute! You're already doing that. Clever.

If you didn't notice, I was "messing" with you......to show you how easy it is to DOMINATE a conversation by asking question after question and getting the poster "back on his heels."

Oh, I noticed (that you were "messing" with me). Did you happen to notice I was playing your game?

It's one effective way to CONTROL THE FLOW of the conversation by using well-placed questions. Heck, twi taught us corps this stuff in one of the christian communication classes.

Gee, to think that some people have to be taught what comes naturally to me is flattering. ;)

But hey, Larry.....if you want to stay in the "question mode" aspect in these discussions, go for it. Sometimes rhetorical questions, like Jesus used, are a very good quality to allow the person to think and reflect......and honest, open questions are welcomed in most any discussion.

I find it interesting to observe how people handle being questioned regarding the assertions they make. If you believe something to be true then why get defensive when someone probes you? Just think -- if you or others here would have done that early in your tenure with TWI you might have gotten out sooner and spared yourself a lot of headaches. In any case -- I didn't find an instruction manual posted anywhere on GS on what is proper modes of discourse here. Although some good soul occasionally thinks it's his role to act as the official GS instructor. :)

Look. If my questions offends you (or backs you into a corner), you can always ignore them. I don't get offended when people make that choice. At times I will do the same -- not necessarily because questions offend me.

Have a good weekend.

Thanks! You do likewise.

[johniam]

John, Jesus said that we would be able to identify one another by the fruit we manifest.

Yeah, but he didn't say that if you see fruit manifested by someone ONE TIME that that's what that person would manifest permanently. Humans aren't that consistent, or perfect.

So based on that...I`d have to say no...I guess I don`t believe he was a christian...shrug.

In other words, BOOP, out goes the button.

Session 7?? You have a man who habitually displayed *of the flesh* tendencies ...who was interpreting scriptures, (a type of man whom God tells us to stay away from btw) .... this creates a definite credibility issue. I think that there is more to it than he understood or taught...

It could be argued that you habitually display hatred. Does that make you "of the flesh" and exempt from salvation? I trow not. Credibility issue? Well, if you have to consider the opposite of everything VP taught you just to validate your spite for a dead man, glad it's you and not me. I don't have time for that.

I have met genuine christians, they get delivered from their fleshly ways. The don`t torture doctrine into making it excusable and teach others to do the same.

Do you see these delivered Christians 24/7? Anybody can put on a face while the "cameras are rolling". Look at VP. Torture doctrine??? Yeah, I bet the pharisees thought Jesus was doing that. Paul too. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with this. I hope you some day find peace.

[T-Bone]

T-Bone:

While I don't pretend to understand the ins and outs of trinitarian vs. unitarian theology, but many unitarians, either through ignorance or obstinance don't understand that trinitarians don't see The Father and The Son (or for that matter, the Holy Spirit) as identical, but as different personas, or aspects of one God. Many (not all) of the arguments that unitarians use focus on differences between The Father and The Son, assuming that it translates into a difference between God and Jesus.

I feel the same way, Oak – there's some convoluted, paradoxical and assumptive issues in Trinitarian/Unitarian doctrines that are challenging to wade through. And speaking of doctrines in general – we're touching upon a process that sometimes is mysterious, elusive and even invisible – how someone organizes the biblical data.

It's unfortunate the Bible is not the God-breathed textbook. Everything would be arranged by topics in neat chapters with lots of God-breathed charts and diagrams for explaining the complicated stuff. If God had inspired the Bible to be written this way - there would be no question as to what/how certain passages related to each other and of course, which ones were relevant to a particular topic – and by the exclusion of all other passages would deem those as irrelevant to the topic.

I've made reference to an analogy on the With Apologies to Jesus and the Trinity thread – but I think it's very appropriate for a thread on PFAL doctrine. The following excerpt is from Understanding Doctrine: What it is – and Why It Matters by Alister McGrath, Zondervan Publishing House, 1990, pages 28, 29:

"A helpful way of thinking of the relation of doctrine to Scripture, probably suggested by a growing Victorian public interest in botanical gardens, was put forward by the nineteenth-century writer Thomas Guthrie. Guthrie argued that Scripture is like nature, in which flowers and plants grow freely in their natural habitat, unordered by human hands.

The human desire for orderliness leads to these same plants being collected and arranged in botanical gardens according to their species, in order that they can be individually studied in more detail. The same plants are found in different contexts – one of which is natural, the other of which is the result of human ordering. Doctrine represents the human attempt to order the ideas of Scripture, arranging them in a logical manner in order that their mutual relation can be better understood."

End of Excerpt

When I first read the above excerpt, many of the PFAL doctrines came to mind, especially the law of believing. I see doctrine as a tool – a useful tool at times – but its strength lies in the criteria used to organize the data.

Reflecting on my "doctrinal garden" after leaving TWI - the law of believing passages stuck out like a sore thumb. In my opinion, vpw organized certain passages by focusing on people experiencing the power of God instead of the power source – God! Instead of attributing the experience to God's power, vpw focused on the power and how to control it – suggesting it was something anyone could tap into – that it worked for saint and sinner alike. Therefore, this section of PFAL's doctrinal garden had passages grouped together that featured a word like "faith" or "believe" or noting a sequence of actions [believe is a verb, a verb connotes action] that produced a result.

This "doctrinal garden paradigm" can be a useful tool for studying Scripture, and perhaps even help us identify questionable doctrines as we develop our critical thinking skills. Some topical passages, however, are very malleable – turning on a viewpoint. Eschatology, Charismata, Baptism, Trinitarian, and Unitarian doctrines - just to name a few – contain elements adaptable to various viewpoints.

Take for instance, my current doctrinal garden section that covers "God". It's one section with three sub-categories [Father, Son, Holy Spirit]. A Unitarian's doctrinal garden would have three distinct sections: Father, Son, holy spirit. It is always critical to see how doctrine influences practice – on Trinitarian/Unitarian doctrine I find no significant practical consequences. So, on this issue - I'm not concerned with who has the "correct" doctrinal garden on this – since the grouping works either way – I prefer my grouping.

That's why I believe it's wise for students of the Bible to develop critical thinking skills – a never-ending process of raising the intellectual bar in order to do our clearest thinking. I think being aware of this "artificial" substructure of doctrines is a good thing, in that we're more apt to distinguish our perception from the actual thing – the raw biblical data. It's being aware of the influence of your own viewpoint. Oak has a great thread along these lines, PFAL-Colored Glasses, PFAL limiting our research:

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=11073&view=findpost&p=259360

And if you think about it – we all have some kind of filter through which we interpret things. That's one of the reasons I come to Grease Spot. I love the variety of belief systems here. I've become more aware of the distinction between my viewpoint and the issue on the table and can even explore it from another angle - if I temporarily adopt someone else's viewpoint…A big thing I learned about PFAL – it's an ideological box that is only so big with some questionable elements to boot! I've ignored the writing on the walls - "you can't go beyond what you're taught" – and decided to leave the room.

Edited September 1, 2007 by T-Bone

[rascal]

John vpw`s evil was not a one time thing...it was habitual over life time.

The hate that you see in my posts because that is what you want to see....your arguments based on that are not valid.

I am sorry that you don`t like that Jesus said *fruit* is how we would be able to identify each other.

I am sorry that galatians says people like vpw will recieve no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven.

I am sorry that scriptures tell us to stay away from people who do what vpw did.....

I am sorry that in order to bolster your belief system that you have to brand me as a lying, psychopathic pig making farting noises...or whatever you are labeling me this week.

I just know that the way we were taught in twi isn`t the whole story....or we would have acted as people of the spirit rather than those of the flesh.

[dougWS]

One thing I can honestly say,is that the more I read the word,and attend church,the more I find out that what I was taught in P.F.A.L. was the truth. I am nothing but proud of what I learned, and how I learned it, and I love the people I was in twig with.

Not saying there are no problems,I am not blind, but I remember the excitement that I felt knowing that I found brothers and sisters that really loved God,and the word. I never felt more loved, and never found truer friends. But, it wasn,t that we were all in the ministry.It was because we are who we are, and we will always be birds of the same feather.

JING, Doug Simerly

[waysider]

snip

Look at VP. Torture doctrine??? Yeah, I bet the pharisees thought Jesus was doing that. Paul too.

snip

johniam

I really don't know what the pharisees "thought", though it's a pretty safe bet (based on scriptural accounts) that they probably had thoughts along those lines.

The thing is, John, regardless of what the pharisees thought, Jesus did not "torture" doctrine.

In sharp contrast, regardless of what anyone thinks, VeePee did "torture" doctrine.

VeePee promoted a doctrine that, simply stated, attributed alcoholism and addiction to devil spirit possession.

It's a well known fact that he taught this in the Advanced Class.

And yet, John, he proceeded to live a lifestyle that was dominated by those very things he said were caused by devil spirits.

So, either this doctrine is erroneous("tortured") or he, himself, actually hosted these spirits at the same time we were following his teachings.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, regarding your question about a Christian "juggling" two lifestyles:

Of course they can, at the very least, in a mental sense. Otherwise there would be no mention of the renewed mind.

Still, the "fruit" they bear will demonstrate how well they were able to juggle.

[doojable]

I'm not sure what "torturing doctrine" means. Is it the same as massaging passages to fit a certain preconceived idea?

[Ham]

I'm not sure what "torturing doctrine" means. Is it the same as massaging passages to fit a certain preconceived idea?

No, I think it literally means torturing doctrine, reminiscent of a scene out of the dark ages. They strap (or appropriately duct tape) the verse in question it to a chair, and beat it with a lead pipe, all the while demanding that it recant it's "heretical" beliefs.

"Now, admit it.. Jesus isn't really God, is he.."

[doojable]

johniam

Now, regarding your question about a Christian "juggling" two lifestyles:

Of course they can, at the very least, in a mental sense. Otherwise there would be no mention of the renewed mind.

Still, the "fruit" they bear will demonstrate how well they were able to juggle.

Many Christians juggle two lifestyles. That may make them just your normal everyday run-of-the-mill Christian who has to deal with sin, or it may make them a "carnal Christian." (Please correct me if I'm mistaken that this term is used in the Bible.)

We all struggle with knowing what to do and not doing it. I believe it is a much, much bigger deal to know what to do and CHOOSE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN not to do it.

Spiritual fruit in a person's life is indicative of the nature and health of the "tree."

IMHO if a person is a chronic juggler, he or she is making a deliberate decision over and over again to put forth an image other that the truth. The spiritual fruit in that person's life will either be non-existent or it will more closely resemble the works of the flesh described in Galatians as well.

[anotherDan]

Doug, Welcome to GS. Glad you're here! Now, we will disavow you of your illusion! Just kidding. :D Are you freshly "out" or what?

TBone, good post. Dr.W's rise to notariety coincided with the popularity of books like Think and Grow Rich, The Magic of Believing, How to Win Friends and Influence People, etc. Even the title "PFAL" keys off of this "success literature". No burdened-down Christians will do! He was a product of his times, as are we all.

I like the 7 Habits of Highly Successful People much better.

edited to say, Dooj! I loved your post!

Edited September 2, 2007 by anotherDan

[dmiller]

Hey there dougWS Welcome to GreaseSpot.

First cup of coffee is on me. :)

You picked an interesting thread, for your first post!

Regardless of that -- Welcome!

[johniam]

quote: Now, regarding your question about a Christian "juggling" two lifestyles:

I didn't say 2 "lifestyles", I said 2 NATURES!!! This isn't the first time you've read a post of mine and changed the message. Do you have the spirit of error?

[johniam]

quote: I am sorry that you don`t like that Jesus said *fruit* is how we would be able to identify each other.

Talk about "seeing what you want to see"! I like it fine; However, I, unlike you, don't jump to erroneous conclusions with information like that.

In Matt 7:20 Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them". Then in John 13:35 he said "by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. If fruit equals knowing someone is a Christian, and love equals knowing someone is a Christian, then fruit equals love (agape). No surprise that love is the first listed fruit of the spirit.

But Jesus also said that the love (agape) of many shall wax cold (Matt 24:12). So isn't it possible that the person whose love ministered to God's people effectually could be the same person whose love later waxed cold? Even a vineyard or an orchard can produce good fruit one year and bad fruit the next. I'm sorry that you apparently have a mental block and don't get the simplicity of this.

Edited September 2, 2007 by johniam

[johniam]

quote: Spiritual fruit in a person's life is indicative of the nature and health of the "tree."

Agreed, but the "tree" is two fold: God's supply is always going to be there, but the person's desire and attitude are not always going to be there. Thus, sometimes good fruit, sometimes not.

[doojable]

quote: Spiritual fruit in a person's life is indicative of the nature and health of the "tree."

Agreed, but the "tree" is two fold: God's supply is always going to be there, but the person's desire and attitude are not always going to be there. Thus, sometimes good fruit, sometimes not.

So we basically said the same thing on this point.

Any apple tree can be healthy one year and in a drought the next.

[anotherDan]

oh never mind

Edited September 2, 2007 by anotherDan

[Larry N Moore]

One thing I can honestly say,is that the more I read the word,and attend church,the more I find out that what I was taught in P.F.A.L. was the truth. I am nothing but proud of what I learned, and how I learned it, and I love the people I was in twig with.

Not saying there are no problems,I am not blind, but I remember the excitement that I felt knowing that I found brothers and sisters that really loved God,and the word. I never felt more loved, and never found truer friends. But, it wasn,t that we were all in the ministry.It was because we are who we are, and we will always be birds of the same feather.

JING, Doug Simerly

Yoo hoo. Hey Eyes -- "fresh meat". Come and get it!!! ;)

Welcome to GS Doug. Just remember one thing -- darn it -- I forgot what that one thing was.

Enjoy!

[dmiller]

quote: I am sorry that you don`t like that Jesus said *fruit* is how we would be able to identify each other.

Talk about "seeing what you want to see"! I like it fine; However, I, unlike you, don't jump to erroneous conclusions with information like that.

In Matt 7:20 Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them". Then in John 13:35 he said "by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. If fruit equals knowing someone is a Christian, and love equals knowing someone is a Christian, then fruit equals love (agape). No surprise that love is the first listed fruit of the spirit.

But Jesus also said that the love (agape) of many shall wax cold (Matt 24:12). So isn't it possible that the person whose love ministered to God's people effectually could be the same person whose love later waxed cold? Even a vineyard or an orchard can produce good fruit one year and bad fruit the next. I'm sorry that you apparently have a mental block and don't get the simplicity of this.

Well -- (I know -- a deep subject for a shallow mind, and all that),

your analogy about vineyards, and orchards is a good one.

Some years you get a crop, other years you don't.

Any farmer/ backyard gardener could tell you that.

I DON'T have a mental block about this in the least.

You neglected to attribute your above quote to a specific poster,

So I'm guessing you are addressing either Dooj or Rascal.

Regardless of whom --- I don't see a *mental block* with them either.

Let's start the year I got in --- 1975 (Just for *grins*).

1975

1976

1977

1978

1979

1980

1981

1982

1983

1984

1985 --- docvic dies.

WHICH one of those years has NO *incident* of docvic molesting women ??

Do you know??

I don't -- but I'm guessing that each and every one of those years are accounted for.

(And that's given certain testimonies found here at GSC),

and (correct) assumptions that HE DID NOT CHANGE HIS NATURE!

Woops --did I say *nature*?? Shucks -- I meant *lifestyle*. ;)

Then you could castigate me like you did Dooj,

and continue to ignore the truth that is being said about the man.

So --- Where's the room for the *Good Fruit*????

Seems (to me) the *seasonal* "no-crop-this-year"

was a regular thing there where docvic presided.

Ya know --- Matthew 13 talks about the Sower and the Seed.

Out of the four instances there (seed, ground, thorns, etc.),

I would have to say that docvic was the embodiement of 3 of them.

And the one he WASN'T the embodiment of --- was the *Good Ground*.

Bottom Line Is --- Docvic sowed more *bad seed* than *good seed*.

:(

Edited September 2, 2007 by dmiller

[T-Bone]

quote: I am sorry that you don`t like that Jesus said *fruit* is how we would be able to identify each other.

Talk about "seeing what you want to see"! I like it fine; However, I, unlike you, don't jump to erroneous conclusions with information like that.

In Matt 7:20 Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them". Then in John 13:35 he said "by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. If fruit equals knowing someone is a Christian, and love equals knowing someone is a Christian, then fruit equals love (agape). No surprise that love is the first listed fruit of the spirit.

But Jesus also said that the love (agape) of many shall wax cold (Matt 24:12). So isn't it possible that the person whose love ministered to God's people effectually could be the same person whose love later waxed cold? Even a vineyard or an orchard can produce good fruit one year and bad fruit the next. I'm sorry that you apparently have a mental block and don't get the simplicity of this.

Talk about seeing what you want to see and jumping to erroneous conclusions! Fitting for this thread, though – here's a "great" thing folks learn taking PFAL – malleable logic. Let's compare apples to oranges. You can't?! Sure you can! Both are sort of round, about the same size…they have color…uhm…they're both fruit – yup, things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. Thank you, PFAL!

Jesus said to identify the - - - TREE - - - by the fruit!

Matthew 7:15-20 NKJV

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

According to Jesus, a false prophet is a bad tree. A bad tree can only produce one thing…bad fruit. He's NOT talking about the amount of fruit produced or the quality of fruit. He's talking about the TYPE of fruit! You don't go to a thorn bush to gather grapes or go to thistles to gather figs.

I wonder why Jesus gave such a warning. Perhaps the sheep's clothing is such a good disguise that it was necessary to issue criteria to spot them – spiritual profiling, if you will. We're to look at the type of fruit to determine the genus of the tree.

For Jesus to expect us to make such an unequivocal judgment – the fruit must be easy to spot. From experience, I would say so – once I removed the wool pulled over my eyes by the wolf. Until then I was just as much fooled by the man-o-gawd facade as the next TWIt. Once you start looking past the talk - and look at the walk - the blinders come off.

Corps were so acclimatized to vpw's ungodly behavior - due to his "spiritual spin" on everything - they never gave this type of fruit a second thought. The mental block most TWIts have is from ignorance of the gospels. "They're not addressed to you - so don't waste your time." Most TWIts expect God to reveal to them any spiritual trouble, banking on revelation, operating the knowledge manifestations...or perhaps the gift ministry they're following will steer them clear of trouble...That's too hard for dumb ol' sheep like me. That's why I like the gospels. My Shepherd lays things out nice and clear..."Well I don't know about adultery. you know it says all things are permissible to me"...Well, that's why I like the Gospels. Jesus said if you're even thinking about adultery it's wrong...I like that. Sure it's tough - but I ain't a nansy pansy .

Can the Christian fruit be counterfeited?

John 13:34,35 NKJV

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

Sure. Like anything else. A smart wolf will dress up in Fruit-of-the-Loom sheep's clothing. Yes, this type of wolf is an excellent actor...I imagine ol' Judas had everyone fooled – but Jesus.

Interesting too, that the love of many growing cold follows the rise of false prophets.

Matthew 24:11-14 NKJV

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

We've gone full circle – coming back to the theme of Matthew 7, talking about those who deceive…Hmmm…very interesting – used the same passages as your post – but without the PFAL-colored glasses.

Edited September 2, 2007 by T-Bone

[johniam]

I stand by my post; all your objections are irrelevant and based on ignorance.

Others got it, that fruit is either good or bad. All your verbage is intended to cloud the issue.

quote: Bottom Line Is --- Docvic sowed more *bad seed* than *good seed*.

Don't be too sure. None of us speak for all 100,000 plus who took pfal. Why does it have to be all or nothing? Why can't VP be rewarded for the good that he did and not for the bad that he did?

quote: QUOTE(johniam @ Sep 1 2007, 11:11 PM)

quote: Spiritual fruit in a person's life is indicative of the nature and health of the "tree."

Agreed, but the "tree" is two fold: God's supply is always going to be there, but the person's desire and attitude are not always going to be there. Thus, sometimes good fruit, sometimes not.

So we basically said the same thing on this point.

Any apple tree can be healthy one year and in a drought the next.

Yes, and so can peoples' fruit.

[T-Bone]

...I'm sorry that you apparently have a mental block and don't get the simplicity of this.

[WordWolf]

Talk about seeing what you want to see and jumping to erroneous conclusions! Fitting for this thread, though – here's a "great" thing folks learn taking PFAL – malleable logic. Let's compare apples to oranges. You can't?! Sure you can! Both are sort of round, about the same size…they have color…uhm…they're both fruit – yup, things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. Thank you, PFAL!

Jesus said to identify the - - - TREE - - - by the fruit!

Matthew 7:15-20 NKJV

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

According to Jesus, a false prophet is a bad tree. A bad tree can only produce one thing…bad fruit. He's NOT talking about the amount of fruit produced or the quality of fruit. He's talking about the TYPE of fruit! You don't go to a thorn bush to gather grapes or go to thistles to gather figs.

I wonder why Jesus gave such a warning. Perhaps the sheep's clothing is such a good disguise that it was necessary to issue criteria to spot them – spiritual profiling, if you will. We're to look at the type of fruit to determine the genus of the tree.

For Jesus to expect us to make such an unequivocal judgment – the fruit must be easy to spot. From experience, I would say so – once I removed the wool pulled over my eyes by the wolf. Until then I was just as much fooled by the man-o-gawd facade as the next TWIt. Once you start looking past the talk - and look at the walk - the blinders come off.

Corps were so acclimatized to vpw's ungodly behavior - due to his "spiritual spin" on everything - they never gave this type of fruit a second thought. The mental block most TWIts have is from ignorance of the gospels. "They're not addressed to you - so don't waste your time." Most TWIts expect God to reveal to them any spiritual trouble, banking on revelation, operating the knowledge manifestations...or perhaps the gift ministry they're following will steer them clear of trouble...That's too hard for dumb ol' sheep like me. That's why I like the gospels. My Shepherd lays things out nice and clear..."Well I don't know about adultery. you know it says all things are permissible to me"...Well, that's why I like the Gospels. Jesus said if you're even thinking about adultery it's wrong...I like that. Sure it's tough - but I ain't a nansy pansy .

Can the Christian fruit be counterfeited?

John 13:34,35 NKJV

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

Sure. Like anything else. A smart wolf will dress up in Fruit-of-the-Loom sheep's clothing. Yes, this type of wolf is an excellent actor...I imagine ol' Judas had everyone fooled – but Jesus.

Interesting too, that the love of many growing cold follows the rise of false prophets.

Matthew 24:11-14 NKJV

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

We've gone full circle – coming back to the theme of Matthew 7, talking about those who deceive…Hmmm…very interesting – used the same passages as your post – but without the PFAL-colored glasses.

I stand by my post; all your objections are irrelevant and based on ignorance.

Congratulations on a clear, straightforward, Scripture-based post, T-Bone!

When the only defense left is "I've made up my mind and you're a stoopidhead",

you've distilled something to its essence, Scripturally.

[waysider]

Johniam

Here's a little suggestion for you, that might make your posts easier to read.

When you see a post you want to quote, click on the quote/reply boxes at the bottom of that post.

That will insert that post into yours.

If you don't want the whole post, delete the sections you don't want and put *snip* on both sides of the section you have saved.

That will put it into a "quote bubble" and the *snips* will show that you are *dividing* it out of the larger context.

And yes, John, you are correct, there is a difference between having a *nature* and having a *lifestyle*.

A person can, by nature, be an alcoholic but live a lifestyle free of alcohol.

However, one does not live a lifestyle of alcoholism without being alcoholic by nature.

In other words, a lifestyle is like a nature brought into manifestation.

Wierwille manifested a lifestyle of alcoholism that was in his nature.