White Dove, one of my favorites along that line was when Jesus said, "in that day, ye shall ask me nothing, for the Father himself loveth you..." I used that as proof the we shouldn't pray to Jesus. Honestly, I pray to God, "through" Jesus Christ, but I do sometimes talk things over with the Lord. Unbelievers make fun of prayer altogether, but some of them admit the possible benefits. Those who don't pray to Jesus may do so based upon their belief of what the Word says, and I certainly don't find fault with that, if they're convinced that prayer should only be made to the Father. I respect Oldies' position on this matter.
When I was in residence, this topic came up in conversation, and someone showed me a letter written by Dr. Wierwille in response to someone who had written him about the subject. I did read the actual letter, but I cannot remember if the person who showed it to me was the one he had written, or if it was a copy of the letter. Anyway, Dr.W replied that he didn't see anything wrong with talking to the Lord. I can't produce the letter, but that's how I remember it. Of course, Dr. Wierwille's recommendation or view won't impress many people here! But I thought I'd mention that for you and Oldies.
Sunesis, I too appreciate your heart and love for the Lord Jesus, as others have expressed. Obviously, we have a lot in common. I wish we could discuss some of these things without getting freaked out if someone doesn't agree with ourselves. One person takes a shot at another, or just resists what another affirms, and it's taken personally, and then the insults fly back and forth. Before you know it, people who are both seeking to do the will of God are at each other's throats. Of course, this is an oft-discussed issue here at GS, where there is such a diversity of opinion. Oldies' tagline by O'Rielly is right on. (Not that I'm a fan of Bill, mind you! Even a broken clock is right twice a day.) I admire those who have the maturity and wisdom not to engage in that stuff.
Oldies just doesn't see it. Yes, he's stubborn IMO, but he sees himself as faithful. He's not unreasonable, though sometimes I think he fails to listen to reason. He often makes a lot of sense to me; sometimes not. GSC is not going to come into harmony and be a "replacement" fellowship for the failed Way International, and I say Thank God for that. I have church for worship and teaching and preaching and fellowship, and I thank God for that! Some, I fear, have only GS as a place of fellowship. This is a place where (among other things) people who were hard-azz doctrine heads are still hashing out what they believe, and sparring with others over their differences. (And that's not the stated purpose of the site... it's just allowed, and with good reason, I think.) This can be done with a healthy mutual respect.... heck, even if others are not respectful to us, we can choose to not respond in kind... Don't render evil for evil, turn the other cheek, yadayada. Paul and Jesus are on MY side! :P
I believe God raised Christ from the dead and made him both Lord and Christ. Again, to me the issue is one of Lordship. Someone may have a theological problem with Jesus being able to hear our prayers. I cannot help them, because theology has limits. But it does seem to me that our great high priest is living, he is the head of the church, and if we are not "holding the head," we're missing something.
quote: That fruit is produced from what we are inside...not something that we are striving to become. If we are having issues with fruit of the flesh rather than manifesting that fruit of the spirit...then it is time to examine our understanding for flaws.
Rascal, it's bad enough that you butcher Gal. 5, but you also make the same mistake that fundamentalist Christians all over make: you think that a true Christian is perfect with no sin nature. Wrong!
Christ gave us a new nature but our sin nature Adam gave us is still there, thus, 2 natures, 2 seeds, 2 kinds of fruit. We all have it. James 3 talks about this as well...
9: Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10: Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Should not be, but can be. You say a true Christian just wouldn't do what VP did (allegedly). Well, wouldn't and shouldn't aren't the same thing. A true Christian shouldn't worship Jesus as God, yet it happens. You've got just as much dirty laundry as anybody else here.
quote: That fruit is produced from what we are inside...not something that we are striving to become. If we are having issues with fruit of the flesh rather than manifesting that fruit of the spirit...then it is time to examine our understanding for flaws.
Rascal, it's bad enough that you butcher Gal. 5, but you also make the same mistake that fundamentalist Christians all over make: you think that a true Christian is perfect with no sin nature. Wrong!
Christ gave us a new nature but our sin nature Adam gave us is still there, thus, 2 natures, 2 seeds, 2 kinds of fruit. We all have it. James 3 talks about this as well...
9: Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10: Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Should not be, but can be. You say a true Christian just wouldn't do what VP did (allegedly). Well, wouldn't and shouldn't aren't the same thing. A true Christian shouldn't worship Jesus as God, yet it happens. You've got just as much dirty laundry as anybody else here.
But don't let me confuse you with the truth.
My opinion:
This was a good post. It would have been better had you stuck to the topic and not added the insults. It's a cheap shot.
If you want your message to sting - keep the insults flying.
If you want to make a point and be well received - remove the insults and stick to the high ground.
Nice posts Dan, Sunesis, and David ( I know you meant Jonah and not Noah>>>>:))
* The one who has MY commandments and keeps them is the one who loves ME.....the one who loves ME will be loved by MY FATHER. I also will love him and REVEAL MYSELF TO HIM* John 14:21
*I want you to know that Christ is the HEAD of every man and the man is the head of the woman, and God is the head of Christ" * 1 Cor 11:3
So, during our exit from TWI things were really stressful.
Mr. Bliss and I were discussing some very important issues. He was very disturbed.
I said " talk to Jesus about it".
Brought up mini corpse his whole life, he barked immediately " I am not going to talk to Jesus!".
I quietly reminded of this verse in 1 Cor, by saying, "why not? honey, you are my head, and I talk with you so we can make decisions together. If Jesus is YOUR HEAD, why are you not communicating with him? How is he your head if he can't ''direct'' you? How can you agree with this verse by ignoring/by/passing him?"
That statement changed our lives.
It is a matter of submission. As a woman, I am not offended by this arrangement..
It is because Christ himself was willing to submit. Therefore worthy of ours.
My hubby was now willing to finally surrender/yeild/ submit to his higher authority. (me too)
This is how a ''relationship'' with Christ is built.
Is using only ''his name'' at the end of our prayers trully acknowleging His Lorship? As Head of the Church? I think not.
* I am the BREAD OF LIFE: he that cometh TO ME shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." John 6:35
* ...my sheep hear MY VOICE, and I know them, and they FOLLOW ME".
I think the biggest ''boo boo'' in the PFAL series was this issue. Without knowing the ''how'' to make Him Lord, how many truly didn't ? It doesn't say to confess that he lived, it says confess Him as LORD.
my2scents
edited to say I know longer am stuck on 666 posts! yahooooooo!
You misrepresent me and my pov entirely john and then attack on that premiss.
I NEVER said christians didn`t sin....I did say there is a difference between sin and fruit.
I know that fruit is the single measuring stick that God gave us to identify one another....shrug
I personally don`t understand why you must try to negate it`s importance, unless it is to excuse the lack.
There are going to be people who thought they knew him who will be told to depart....pure and simple...there are going to be people whom are of the flesh whom will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God....
There will be those who are of the spirit and will recieve an inheritance and ever lasting life...
God tells us clearly how to tell one from the other...where is the butchery?
Hey Dan the letter you spoke of is in the GreaseSpot documents if you would like to read it again sometime.Here
I have no problem with fellowship with Jesus Christ but praying to and worshiping him is a different thing I'd draw the line there, that was also the conclusion of the repy in the letter. It seems pretty simple to me I guess , Right now I am talking to you, or with you ,although not in person, but I will not be praying to you. I think the same relationship can be had with Jesus Christ which is where he gets out of the unemployment line so to speak, there is plenty of work for him to do and I doubt he is wanting to take on the Fathers job as well anyway.
Nice posts Dan, Sunesis, and David ( I know you meant Jonah and not
* ...my sheep hear MY VOICE, and I know them, and they FOLLOW ME". [/i]
I think the biggest ''boo boo'' in the PFAL series was this issue. Without knowing the ''how'' to make Him Lord, how many truly didn't ? It doesn't say to confess that he lived, it says confess Him as LORD.
[shrug] okay – I'll continue to play along – I wonder why you're making it so difficult – it's plainly stated in the gospels - in this passage below it kinda ties it all together…the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit working together…
John 14: 15-27 NIV
15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
The "personal walk with Jesus" has something to do with loving obedience to His teaching – don't yah think?
Does any of the above passage answer some of your questions? Are you even interested in the type of relationship mentioned in the above passage?
Your lifestyle is not plainly stated in the gospels. I read the above verses, it says "the counselor the holy spirit" .... "will teach you and remind you..." Seems to me you are communing with God who is Holy Spirit...
I don't see any teaching instruction or detailed explanation of specific daily communing with the man Jesus or resurrected Christ. Haven't seen any detailed teaching instructions like that in the book of Acts or Epistles let alone the Gospels.
I would think such a specific lifestyle of talking with Jesus and him talking with you (which seems to be the cornerstone of some Christians beliefs) should be spelled out in scripture.
But but BUT if that is the way you see it when you pray and commune with Jesus, and that's what you want to do, I'm not quarreling with you. To each his own.
But I deeply question when twi and offshoots and those who SIT and give thanks and prayers well with their understanding in the name of Jesus Christ, are labelled as somehow being deficient in honoring Christ or understanding his immense greatness. I think its a bum rap.
Dove, thanks for that (read that letter, if you can, Oldies!) The ruling principle, as I see it, as you and Oldies have posted, is monotheism, something that I too appreciate. It's a good discussion. Bliss, thanks for your comments, too. They warmed my soul.
Johniam, what Doojable wrote was what I was thinking.... I probably wouldn't say it just like that, but if you had left off that last line, I think your argument could have been more graciously received! But don't let me confuse you with the truth! :P
edit: Oldies, we're posting at the same time. Do you see in those verses where Jesus says, "I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you."? Do you see where he told them that he would love them and make himself known to them? Has he done that for you?
Jesus said that the obedient were those to whom he would reveal the Father, and himself, and they would make their abode with these.
Another Dan, according to the previous verses given by T-Bone, Jesus said that he would send another comforter, the holy spirit, that would do the teaching and counselling. Seems to me that means a Christian's communing means directly with God.
Jesus, through his death resurrection and ascension made it available for us to commune with God Himself directly via the holy spirit, born within us.
David What's wrong is I can't seem to find that idea in scripture. I don't see any place where Jesus said to pray to him nor do I see any place where God said to either. It appears that the apostles who were with Jesus seemed to get the same idea as they did not promote such a thing in scripture either. While it may be a nice churchy, touchy, feely idea I don't see any scriptural support for prayer to Jesus. I personally don't want to be making up ideas and ascribing to God how I want things done. It appears from scripture that Jesus never prayed to himself either nor did he instruct others to...
Perhaps who to pray to is another point of distinction between Trinitarians and Unitarians. In my opinion, TWI made more of an issue out of it. To me, that's the influence of the PFAL-mindset that likes to draw up rigid rules, formulas, and principles for everything. While I do see passages that speak of prayer to the Father – I also find instances of prayer to "the Lord" – a title applied to Father and Son:
Psalm 110:1-6 NKJV
1 The LORD said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."
2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
3 Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
4 The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
"You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."
5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
A simple prayer calling on the name of the Lord:
Psalm 116:1-19 NKJV
1 I love the LORD, because He has heard
My voice and my supplications.
2 Because He has inclined His ear to me,
Therefore I will call upon Him as long as I live.
3 The pains of death surrounded me,
And the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me;
I found trouble and sorrow.
4 Then I called upon the name of the LORD:
"O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul!"
5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous;
Yes, our God is merciful.
6 The LORD preserves the simple;
I was brought low, and He saved me.
7 Return to your rest, O my soul,
For the LORD has dealt bountifully with you.
8 For You have delivered my soul from death,
My eyes from tears,
And my feet from falling.
9 I will walk before the LORD
In the land of the living.
10 I believed, therefore I spoke,
"I am greatly afflicted."
11 I said in my haste,
"All men are liars."
12 What shall I render to the LORD
For all His benefits toward me?
13 I will take up the cup of salvation,
And call upon the name of the LORD.
14 I will pay my vows to the LORD
Now in the presence of all His people.
15 Precious in the sight of the LORD
Is the death of His saints.
16 O LORD, truly I am Your servant;
I am Your servant, the son of Your maidservant;
You have loosed my bonds.
17 I will offer to You the sacrifice of thanksgiving,
And will call upon the name of the LORD.
18 I will pay my vows to the LORD
Now in the presence of all His people,
19 In the courts of the LORD's house,
In the midst of you, O Jerusalem.
Praise the LORD!
Corinthians is addressed to all who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ:
I Corinthians 1:1-3 NKJV
1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
II Corinthians has a noteworthy prayer by Paul to the Lord about a thorn in the flesh. The Lord's answer was that His own strength ["the power of Christ"] would empower Paul!
II Corinthians 12:7-10 NKJV
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
I do not find any Scripture forbidding prayer to the Son nor passages that require us to draw sharp distinctions in the "process of prayer" – for want of a better term – that sounds so cold and mechanical. I view prayer as basically talking to God. I also think this has bearing with the recent discussion of a personal walk with Jesus. I thought of a few verses:
I John 1:3-7 NKJV
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
I Corinthians 1:9 NKJV
God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
"Fellowship" in the above verses is koinonia [strong's # 2842] in the Greek text. Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words by William Mounce, says of koinonia on page 247:
…koinonia generally means "fellowship, communion, participation, sharing." …Paul uses koinonia to refer to the intimate fellowship shared between the believing community and Jesus Christ …John uses koinonia to refer to the Christian fellowship we have with one another . This fellowship is centered in and based on our common fellowship with the Father and his Son, Jesus .
End of Excerpts
The relationship…fellowship…communion…of believers is very similar to our relationship with the Father and Son. I see prayer…talking…as a natural part of our relationship with the Father and Son. As I indicated in post # 1508 [and again not saying my prayer life is the norm – just revealing how I think] – when I pray – I don't usually draw a distinction of who I'm addressing – and I don't think it matters – He who listens to my prayers and knows my heart can sort it all out.
Your lifestyle is not plainly stated in the gospels. I read the above verses, it says "the counselor the holy spirit" .... "will teach you and remind you..." Seems to me you are communing with God who is Holy Spirit...
I don't see any teaching instruction or detailed explanation of specific daily communing with the man Jesus or resurrected Christ. Haven't seen any detailed teaching instructions like that in the book of Acts or Epistles let alone the Gospels.
I would think such a specific lifestyle of talking with Jesus and him talking with you (which seems to be the cornerstone of some Christians beliefs) should be spelled out in scripture.
But but BUT if that is the way you see it when you pray and commune with Jesus, and that's what you want to do, I'm not quarreling with you. To each his own.
But I deeply question when twi and offshoots and those who SIT and give thanks and prayers well with their understanding in the name of Jesus Christ, are labelled as somehow being deficient in honoring Christ or understanding his immense greatness. I think its a bum rap.
You’re making this very difficult for yourself. You need to review the passage I quoted [John 14:15-27] – read it a few times – you don’t even have to do a big word study – just think about…what each sentence implies. There’s a reason why I put more Bible in that post than my own comments. There’s enough info in the passage to justify what I’ve said – there IS a very simple instruction in it.
I’m not interested in going around in circles – but if your serious about wanting to understand and not wanting to argue – please read the passage – let it sit for awhile – think…..I’m a firm believer in the Holy Spirit as overseer of the written Word – and He speaks to every searching soul that reads it. We can talk more about it later…I’ll let you get to work.
"The relationship…fellowship…communion…of believers is very similar to our relationship with the Father and Son. I see prayer…talking…as a natural part of our relationship with the Father and Son. As I indicated in post # 1508 [and again not saying my prayer life is the norm – just revealing how I think] – when I pray – I don't usually draw a distinction of who I'm addressing – and I don't think it matters – He who listens to my prayers and knows my heart can sort it all out."
That is the point. If we are discussing the trinity, then, OLDIES, yes, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS OUR TEACHER, and if they ALL ARE ONE, then it doesn't matter which one we address..............
T-Bone, thanks for all your hard work here.
I don't think you answer anyone's questions directly enough Oldies, and you don't really read the scriptures quoted, seems to me.
But, I know We aren't going to change your mind. Only God can do that.
I’m a firm believer in the Holy Spirit as overseer of the written Word – and He speaks to every searching soul that reads it.
How then do you account for the fact that different understandings of the same verses arise? Is God telling one person one thing and then telling someone else something entirely different?
quote: That fruit is produced from what we are inside...not something that we are striving to become. If we are having issues with fruit of the flesh rather than manifesting that fruit of the spirit...then it is time to examine our understanding for flaws.
Rascal, it's bad enough that you butcher Gal. 5, but you also make the same mistake that fundamentalist Christians all over make: you think that a true Christian is perfect with no sin nature. Wrong!
I noticed you left out anyplace where rascal actually SAID anything you're accusing her of.
Never let it be said you'll let truth and honesty stand in the path of your defense of vpw.
Galatians 5 interferes with a defense of vpw, so it must be discredited.
rascal quotes Galatians 5, so she must be discredited.
Neither rascal nor "fundamentalist Christians all over" ever say a Christian is "perfect with no sin nature."
That's an invented strawman position of John (and vpw defenders) used to pretend other Christians are unreasonable
and overly legalistic.
Galatians 5:16-25.
KJV
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:16-25
NASB
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
============
Pretty simple to understand.
Christ gave us a new nature but our sin nature Adam gave us is still there, thus, 2 natures, 2 seeds, 2 kinds of fruit. We all have it. James 3 talks about this as well...
9: Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10: Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Which does not negate Galatians 5, which means we have to actually UNDERSTAND WHAT THE VERSES MEAN
rather than just blow off Galatians 5:21 because it doesn't match our theology or opinion of vpw.
Should not be, but can be. You say a true Christian just wouldn't do what VP did (allegedly).
As reported by many eyewitnesses.
And according to Galatians 5:21, people who do SOME of the things vpw did
"shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
I'm not sure PRECISELY what that means, but it sounds serious.
Can a Christian do that? If so, it will cost him the kingdom of God.
I still don't know PRECISELY what it means, but it sounds serious.
Well, wouldn't and shouldn't aren't the same thing.
That is true. Christians also shouldn't distort the truth and lie about other Christians,
but that doesn't mean all Christians wouldn't.
A true Christian shouldn't worship Jesus as God, yet it happens.
A true Christian shouldn't demonize his fellow Christians for disagreeing with his doctrine, yet it happens too.
A true Christian shouldn't forsake loving his neighbor as himself, yet it happens, too.
You've got just as much dirty laundry as anybody else here.
Possibly true-since the true performers of evil acts never posted "here."
Possibly NOT true, since I don't know HER private life nor anyone else's here-
and supposing one does is ridiculous, but illogical, untruthful, emotion-based attackers certainly
can PRETEND they do.
But don't let me confuse you with the truth.
Or with lies, illogic, or personal attacks, for that matter.
Not at all, Oldies. I'm not at all trying to get you to talk with Jesus, either. Like I said, I respect your position. But, and I'm speaking strictly for myself, I do feel that I personally diminished the role of Jesus in my life to the point that he was NOT Lord. You seem to manage a very high level of respect and honor for Jesus Christ, in good Way Ministry fashion. It makes sense to you. Whether that regard for Jesus rises to the level of Lordship is entirely between you and the Lord.
May I make a confession? I call him Lord; I believe he's Lord, but I don't have the confidence that my confession and belief IN FACT "rises to the level of Lordship." I will have to find out. If you think that's not a comfortable place to be, you'd be right. I'd much rather just blithely go on my way thinking I was "righteous" via the theological construct that Dr. W presented. There are other ways of looking at that, not that I want to argue them. If he is Lord, my faith is to be in him, and that's where I am, or am trying to be. My faith in Christ is that he did indeed die for my sins, he did indeed rise from the dead, he was indeed made by God to be "both Lord and Christ (anointed, like a king). But I take it upon myself to reckon with the warning that there are those who call him Lord that are going to be disappointed in their expectation.
Do you see in those verses where Jesus says, "I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you."? Do you see where he told them that he would love them and make himself known to them? Has he done that for you?
Absolutely, via Holy Scriptures and Holy Spirit! :)
This is a blanket statement, not directed toward any particular person:
It is difficult to fully understand and appreciate the depth of what Jesus accomplished as "The Christ" without first understanding who he was and what he endured as "a man".
"The relationship…fellowship…communion…of believers is very similar to our relationship with the Father and Son. I see prayer…talking…as a natural part of our relationship with the Father and Son. As I indicated in post # 1508 [and again not saying my prayer life is the norm – just revealing how I think] – when I pray – I don't usually draw a distinction of who I'm addressing – and I don't think it matters – He who listens to my prayers and knows my heart can sort it all out."
That is the point. If we are discussing the trinity, then, OLDIES, yes, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS OUR TEACHER, and if they ALL ARE ONE, then it doesn't matter which one we address..............
T-Bone, thanks for all your hard work here.
I don't think you answer anyone's questions directly enough Oldies, and you don't really read the scriptures quoted, seems to me.
But, I know We aren't going to change your mind. Only God can do that.
Just ask Jesus to show you!
Jesus said "my father is greater than I".
He Jesus made available the opportunity for me to speak with God the Father, directly, via holy spirit born within.
Why is it so important that I must ask Jesus and direct my prayer to Jesus?
If you do that, that's your belief and I have no quarrel with it.
But why can't one just ask God in Christ's name and that be satisfactory?
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
anotherDan
White Dove, one of my favorites along that line was when Jesus said, "in that day, ye shall ask me nothing, for the Father himself loveth you..." I used that as proof the we shouldn't pray to Jesus. Honestly, I pray to God, "through" Jesus Christ, but I do sometimes talk things over with the Lord. Unbelievers make fun of prayer altogether, but some of them admit the possible benefits. Those who don't pray to Jesus may do so based upon their belief of what the Word says, and I certainly don't find fault with that, if they're convinced that prayer should only be made to the Father. I respect Oldies' position on this matter.
When I was in residence, this topic came up in conversation, and someone showed me a letter written by Dr. Wierwille in response to someone who had written him about the subject. I did read the actual letter, but I cannot remember if the person who showed it to me was the one he had written, or if it was a copy of the letter. Anyway, Dr.W replied that he didn't see anything wrong with talking to the Lord. I can't produce the letter, but that's how I remember it. Of course, Dr. Wierwille's recommendation or view won't impress many people here! But I thought I'd mention that for you and Oldies.
Sunesis, I too appreciate your heart and love for the Lord Jesus, as others have expressed. Obviously, we have a lot in common. I wish we could discuss some of these things without getting freaked out if someone doesn't agree with ourselves. One person takes a shot at another, or just resists what another affirms, and it's taken personally, and then the insults fly back and forth. Before you know it, people who are both seeking to do the will of God are at each other's throats. Of course, this is an oft-discussed issue here at GS, where there is such a diversity of opinion. Oldies' tagline by O'Rielly is right on. (Not that I'm a fan of Bill, mind you! Even a broken clock is right twice a day.) I admire those who have the maturity and wisdom not to engage in that stuff.
Oldies just doesn't see it. Yes, he's stubborn IMO, but he sees himself as faithful. He's not unreasonable, though sometimes I think he fails to listen to reason. He often makes a lot of sense to me; sometimes not. GSC is not going to come into harmony and be a "replacement" fellowship for the failed Way International, and I say Thank God for that. I have church for worship and teaching and preaching and fellowship, and I thank God for that! Some, I fear, have only GS as a place of fellowship. This is a place where (among other things) people who were hard-azz doctrine heads are still hashing out what they believe, and sparring with others over their differences. (And that's not the stated purpose of the site... it's just allowed, and with good reason, I think.) This can be done with a healthy mutual respect.... heck, even if others are not respectful to us, we can choose to not respond in kind... Don't render evil for evil, turn the other cheek, yadayada. Paul and Jesus are on MY side! :P
I believe God raised Christ from the dead and made him both Lord and Christ. Again, to me the issue is one of Lordship. Someone may have a theological problem with Jesus being able to hear our prayers. I cannot help them, because theology has limits. But it does seem to me that our great high priest is living, he is the head of the church, and if we are not "holding the head," we're missing something.
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johniam
quote: That fruit is produced from what we are inside...not something that we are striving to become. If we are having issues with fruit of the flesh rather than manifesting that fruit of the spirit...then it is time to examine our understanding for flaws.
Rascal, it's bad enough that you butcher Gal. 5, but you also make the same mistake that fundamentalist Christians all over make: you think that a true Christian is perfect with no sin nature. Wrong!
Christ gave us a new nature but our sin nature Adam gave us is still there, thus, 2 natures, 2 seeds, 2 kinds of fruit. We all have it. James 3 talks about this as well...
9: Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10: Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Should not be, but can be. You say a true Christian just wouldn't do what VP did (allegedly). Well, wouldn't and shouldn't aren't the same thing. A true Christian shouldn't worship Jesus as God, yet it happens. You've got just as much dirty laundry as anybody else here.
But don't let me confuse you with the truth.
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doojable
My opinion:
This was a good post. It would have been better had you stuck to the topic and not added the insults. It's a cheap shot.
If you want your message to sting - keep the insults flying.
If you want to make a point and be well received - remove the insults and stick to the high ground.
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bliss
Nice posts Dan, Sunesis, and David ( I know you meant Jonah and not Noah>>>>:))
* The one who has MY commandments and keeps them is the one who loves ME.....the one who loves ME will be loved by MY FATHER. I also will love him and REVEAL MYSELF TO HIM* John 14:21
*I want you to know that Christ is the HEAD of every man and the man is the head of the woman, and God is the head of Christ" * 1 Cor 11:3
So, during our exit from TWI things were really stressful.
Mr. Bliss and I were discussing some very important issues. He was very disturbed.
I said " talk to Jesus about it".
Brought up mini corpse his whole life, he barked immediately " I am not going to talk to Jesus!".
I quietly reminded of this verse in 1 Cor, by saying, "why not? honey, you are my head, and I talk with you so we can make decisions together. If Jesus is YOUR HEAD, why are you not communicating with him? How is he your head if he can't ''direct'' you? How can you agree with this verse by ignoring/by/passing him?"
That statement changed our lives.
It is a matter of submission. As a woman, I am not offended by this arrangement..
It is because Christ himself was willing to submit. Therefore worthy of ours.
My hubby was now willing to finally surrender/yeild/ submit to his higher authority. (me too)
This is how a ''relationship'' with Christ is built.
Is using only ''his name'' at the end of our prayers trully acknowleging His Lorship? As Head of the Church? I think not.
* I am the BREAD OF LIFE: he that cometh TO ME shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." John 6:35
* ...my sheep hear MY VOICE, and I know them, and they FOLLOW ME".
I think the biggest ''boo boo'' in the PFAL series was this issue. Without knowing the ''how'' to make Him Lord, how many truly didn't ? It doesn't say to confess that he lived, it says confess Him as LORD.
my2scents
edited to say I know longer am stuck on 666 posts! yahooooooo!
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rascal
You misrepresent me and my pov entirely john and then attack on that premiss.
I NEVER said christians didn`t sin....I did say there is a difference between sin and fruit.
I know that fruit is the single measuring stick that God gave us to identify one another....shrug
I personally don`t understand why you must try to negate it`s importance, unless it is to excuse the lack.
There are going to be people who thought they knew him who will be told to depart....pure and simple...there are going to be people whom are of the flesh whom will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God....
There will be those who are of the spirit and will recieve an inheritance and ever lasting life...
God tells us clearly how to tell one from the other...where is the butchery?
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WhiteDove
Hey Dan the letter you spoke of is in the GreaseSpot documents if you would like to read it again sometime.Here
I have no problem with fellowship with Jesus Christ but praying to and worshiping him is a different thing I'd draw the line there, that was also the conclusion of the repy in the letter. It seems pretty simple to me I guess , Right now I am talking to you, or with you ,although not in person, but I will not be praying to you. I think the same relationship can be had with Jesus Christ which is where he gets out of the unemployment line so to speak, there is plenty of work for him to do and I doubt he is wanting to take on the Fathers job as well anyway.
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rascal
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oldiesman
Your lifestyle is not plainly stated in the gospels. I read the above verses, it says "the counselor the holy spirit" .... "will teach you and remind you..." Seems to me you are communing with God who is Holy Spirit...
I don't see any teaching instruction or detailed explanation of specific daily communing with the man Jesus or resurrected Christ. Haven't seen any detailed teaching instructions like that in the book of Acts or Epistles let alone the Gospels.
I would think such a specific lifestyle of talking with Jesus and him talking with you (which seems to be the cornerstone of some Christians beliefs) should be spelled out in scripture.
But but BUT if that is the way you see it when you pray and commune with Jesus, and that's what you want to do, I'm not quarreling with you. To each his own.
But I deeply question when twi and offshoots and those who SIT and give thanks and prayers well with their understanding in the name of Jesus Christ, are labelled as somehow being deficient in honoring Christ or understanding his immense greatness. I think its a bum rap.
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anotherDan
Dove, thanks for that (read that letter, if you can, Oldies!) The ruling principle, as I see it, as you and Oldies have posted, is monotheism, something that I too appreciate. It's a good discussion. Bliss, thanks for your comments, too. They warmed my soul.
Johniam, what Doojable wrote was what I was thinking.... I probably wouldn't say it just like that, but if you had left off that last line, I think your argument could have been more graciously received! But don't let me confuse you with the truth! :P
edit: Oldies, we're posting at the same time. Do you see in those verses where Jesus says, "I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you."? Do you see where he told them that he would love them and make himself known to them? Has he done that for you?
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oldiesman
Another Dan, according to the previous verses given by T-Bone, Jesus said that he would send another comforter, the holy spirit, that would do the teaching and counselling. Seems to me that means a Christian's communing means directly with God.
Jesus, through his death resurrection and ascension made it available for us to commune with God Himself directly via the holy spirit, born within us.
I have thanked both God and Jesus for this.
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T-Bone
Perhaps who to pray to is another point of distinction between Trinitarians and Unitarians. In my opinion, TWI made more of an issue out of it. To me, that's the influence of the PFAL-mindset that likes to draw up rigid rules, formulas, and principles for everything. While I do see passages that speak of prayer to the Father – I also find instances of prayer to "the Lord" – a title applied to Father and Son:
Psalm 110:1-6 NKJV
1 The LORD said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."
2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
3 Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
4 The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
"You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."
5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
A simple prayer calling on the name of the Lord:
Psalm 116:1-19 NKJV
1 I love the LORD, because He has heard
My voice and my supplications.
2 Because He has inclined His ear to me,
Therefore I will call upon Him as long as I live.
3 The pains of death surrounded me,
And the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me;
I found trouble and sorrow.
4 Then I called upon the name of the LORD:
"O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul!"
5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous;
Yes, our God is merciful.
6 The LORD preserves the simple;
I was brought low, and He saved me.
7 Return to your rest, O my soul,
For the LORD has dealt bountifully with you.
8 For You have delivered my soul from death,
My eyes from tears,
And my feet from falling.
9 I will walk before the LORD
In the land of the living.
10 I believed, therefore I spoke,
"I am greatly afflicted."
11 I said in my haste,
"All men are liars."
12 What shall I render to the LORD
For all His benefits toward me?
13 I will take up the cup of salvation,
And call upon the name of the LORD.
14 I will pay my vows to the LORD
Now in the presence of all His people.
15 Precious in the sight of the LORD
Is the death of His saints.
16 O LORD, truly I am Your servant;
I am Your servant, the son of Your maidservant;
You have loosed my bonds.
17 I will offer to You the sacrifice of thanksgiving,
And will call upon the name of the LORD.
18 I will pay my vows to the LORD
Now in the presence of all His people,
19 In the courts of the LORD's house,
In the midst of you, O Jerusalem.
Praise the LORD!
Corinthians is addressed to all who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ:
I Corinthians 1:1-3 NKJV
1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
II Corinthians has a noteworthy prayer by Paul to the Lord about a thorn in the flesh. The Lord's answer was that His own strength ["the power of Christ"] would empower Paul!
II Corinthians 12:7-10 NKJV
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
I do not find any Scripture forbidding prayer to the Son nor passages that require us to draw sharp distinctions in the "process of prayer" – for want of a better term – that sounds so cold and mechanical. I view prayer as basically talking to God. I also think this has bearing with the recent discussion of a personal walk with Jesus. I thought of a few verses:
I John 1:3-7 NKJV
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
I Corinthians 1:9 NKJV
God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
"Fellowship" in the above verses is koinonia [strong's # 2842] in the Greek text. Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words by William Mounce, says of koinonia on page 247:
…koinonia generally means "fellowship, communion, participation, sharing." …Paul uses koinonia to refer to the intimate fellowship shared between the believing community and Jesus Christ …John uses koinonia to refer to the Christian fellowship we have with one another . This fellowship is centered in and based on our common fellowship with the Father and his Son, Jesus .
End of Excerpts
The relationship…fellowship…communion…of believers is very similar to our relationship with the Father and Son. I see prayer…talking…as a natural part of our relationship with the Father and Son. As I indicated in post # 1508 [and again not saying my prayer life is the norm – just revealing how I think] – when I pray – I don't usually draw a distinction of who I'm addressing – and I don't think it matters – He who listens to my prayers and knows my heart can sort it all out.
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oldiesman
Another Dan,
are you saying that if someone does not talk with Jesus daily, they have not made him Lord?
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T-Bone
You’re making this very difficult for yourself. You need to review the passage I quoted [John 14:15-27] – read it a few times – you don’t even have to do a big word study – just think about…what each sentence implies. There’s a reason why I put more Bible in that post than my own comments. There’s enough info in the passage to justify what I’ve said – there IS a very simple instruction in it.
I’m not interested in going around in circles – but if your serious about wanting to understand and not wanting to argue – please read the passage – let it sit for awhile – think…..I’m a firm believer in the Holy Spirit as overseer of the written Word – and He speaks to every searching soul that reads it. We can talk more about it later…I’ll let you get to work.
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bliss
"The relationship…fellowship…communion…of believers is very similar to our relationship with the Father and Son. I see prayer…talking…as a natural part of our relationship with the Father and Son. As I indicated in post # 1508 [and again not saying my prayer life is the norm – just revealing how I think] – when I pray – I don't usually draw a distinction of who I'm addressing – and I don't think it matters – He who listens to my prayers and knows my heart can sort it all out."
That is the point. If we are discussing the trinity, then, OLDIES, yes, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS OUR TEACHER, and if they ALL ARE ONE, then it doesn't matter which one we address..............
T-Bone, thanks for all your hard work here.
I don't think you answer anyone's questions directly enough Oldies, and you don't really read the scriptures quoted, seems to me.
But, I know We aren't going to change your mind. Only God can do that.
Just ask Jesus to show you!
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Larry N Moore
How then do you account for the fact that different understandings of the same verses arise? Is God telling one person one thing and then telling someone else something entirely different?
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WordWolf
I noticed you left out anyplace where rascal actually SAID anything you're accusing her of.
Never let it be said you'll let truth and honesty stand in the path of your defense of vpw.
Galatians 5 interferes with a defense of vpw, so it must be discredited.
rascal quotes Galatians 5, so she must be discredited.
Neither rascal nor "fundamentalist Christians all over" ever say a Christian is "perfect with no sin nature."
That's an invented strawman position of John (and vpw defenders) used to pretend other Christians are unreasonable
and overly legalistic.
Galatians 5:16-25.
KJV
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:16-25
NASB
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
============
Pretty simple to understand.
Which does not negate Galatians 5, which means we have to actually UNDERSTAND WHAT THE VERSES MEANrather than just blow off Galatians 5:21 because it doesn't match our theology or opinion of vpw.
As reported by many eyewitnesses.
And according to Galatians 5:21, people who do SOME of the things vpw did
"shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
I'm not sure PRECISELY what that means, but it sounds serious.
Can a Christian do that? If so, it will cost him the kingdom of God.
I still don't know PRECISELY what it means, but it sounds serious.
That is true. Christians also shouldn't distort the truth and lie about other Christians,but that doesn't mean all Christians wouldn't.
A true Christian shouldn't demonize his fellow Christians for disagreeing with his doctrine, yet it happens too.
A true Christian shouldn't forsake loving his neighbor as himself, yet it happens, too.
Possibly true-since the true performers of evil acts never posted "here."Possibly NOT true, since I don't know HER private life nor anyone else's here-
and supposing one does is ridiculous, but illogical, untruthful, emotion-based attackers certainly
can PRETEND they do.
Or with lies, illogic, or personal attacks, for that matter.
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anotherDan
Not at all, Oldies. I'm not at all trying to get you to talk with Jesus, either. Like I said, I respect your position. But, and I'm speaking strictly for myself, I do feel that I personally diminished the role of Jesus in my life to the point that he was NOT Lord. You seem to manage a very high level of respect and honor for Jesus Christ, in good Way Ministry fashion. It makes sense to you. Whether that regard for Jesus rises to the level of Lordship is entirely between you and the Lord.
May I make a confession? I call him Lord; I believe he's Lord, but I don't have the confidence that my confession and belief IN FACT "rises to the level of Lordship." I will have to find out. If you think that's not a comfortable place to be, you'd be right. I'd much rather just blithely go on my way thinking I was "righteous" via the theological construct that Dr. W presented. There are other ways of looking at that, not that I want to argue them. If he is Lord, my faith is to be in him, and that's where I am, or am trying to be. My faith in Christ is that he did indeed die for my sins, he did indeed rise from the dead, he was indeed made by God to be "both Lord and Christ (anointed, like a king). But I take it upon myself to reckon with the warning that there are those who call him Lord that are going to be disappointed in their expectation.
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Larry N Moore
If it's so simple to understand, then why is it you DON'T know or AREN'T sure what it means? :blink:
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oldiesman
Absolutely, via Holy Scriptures and Holy Spirit! :)
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waysider
This is a blanket statement, not directed toward any particular person:
It is difficult to fully understand and appreciate the depth of what Jesus accomplished as "The Christ" without first understanding who he was and what he endured as "a man".
Just my 2 cents.
Your coin purse doesn't have to resemble mine.
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oldiesman
Jesus said "my father is greater than I".
He Jesus made available the opportunity for me to speak with God the Father, directly, via holy spirit born within.
Why is it so important that I must ask Jesus and direct my prayer to Jesus?
If you do that, that's your belief and I have no quarrel with it.
But why can't one just ask God in Christ's name and that be satisfactory?
Does Jesus have a problem with that?
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oldiesman
Applies to all Christians, twi, and including former twi, to twi.
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Larry N Moore
You omitted the word "true". Haven't quite figure out what it means to be a "true" Christian, but it must be serious. ;)
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bliss
I don't think He has a problem with it at all.
I pray to God in His name also.
But that is not the only issue.
You are still not in a ''relationship'' with Christ. You are just using His name.
I can talk ''about you'' Oldies all day here on GSC. But, I still wouldn't have a relationship with you unless I talked/emailed, PMd, /see you.
That is the other problem with PFAL/WAY theology.
We knew a lot''about'' Him.
But we didn't ''know'' Him. I am talking about ALL THREE too. Not just Jesus Christ.
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