quote: However, knowing what rape does to a woman, I am too biased in my heart to give any credit to VPW in regard to "his ministry." I am sure you are correct, the man must have had some redeeming qualities. But I cannot give him credit for having a godly ministry, in light of how he used that ministry to hurt women.
Well, there you GO judge poop! Youth here doesn't seem to KNOW about the disappearance of the old school.
Well, there you Go, Abigail. You just admitted that you can't compartmentalize. VP did good. VP did bad. Two separate things. You can't see this.
If God doesn't credit people for anything they do then people are just robots; whatever they do is just part of God's plan. I don't care if you don't believe in my devil.
quote: However, knowing what rape does to a woman, I am too biased in my heart to give any credit to VPW in regard to "his ministry." I am sure you are correct, the man must have had some redeeming qualities. But I cannot give him credit for having a godly ministry, in light of how he used that ministry to hurt women.
Well, there you GO judge poop! Youth here doesn't seem to KNOW about the disappearance of the old school.
Well, there you Go, Abigail. You just admitted that you can't compartmentalize. VP did good. VP did bad. Two separate things. You can't see this.
If God doesn't credit people for anything they do then people are just robots; whatever they do is just part of God's plan. I don't care if you don't believe in my devil.
Actually, I did acknowledge he must have had redeeming qualities. What I said I could not give him credit for is having a godly ministry. In other words, I don't give VPW credit for the good people got out of TWI. That credit belongs to God and to many of the participants within TWI - people like Rascal, Suda, ExC - people who were honest and good from the get go and stayed honest and good. VPW doesn't fall under that unbrella in my opinion and therefore VPW does not get credit for anything good that came out of TWI.
You know, JohnIAM, I can't help but wonder just how godly you would think VPW's ministry was if you had been raped by him. Imagine a man you trust and respect, one you think has opened God's Word to you, suddenly pins you down and starts kissing you. You can smell the stale alcohol on his breath. Imagine yourself struggling, telling him no as you forces himself into your body.
No, I don't think you are truly capable of imagining such a thing. See, I don't have to imagine it. My perp wasn't VPW, but that makes little difference because VPW was a perpetrator to more than one woman.
However, if you were capable of truly imagining that - of truly putting yourself in that place, of feeling the shock, horror, revulsion, betrayal, confusion and shame, you might be singing a different tune.
Yes, good things came out of TWI. But no, VPW doesn't deserve credit for them.
...My visual picture of the class is like a spider web you see after a hard rain. The web itself would be invisible if it were not for the multitude of tiny droplets of water shining off of it's surface. And those shining droplets represent the gems of truth in the scriptures read in the class. Those scriptures stood alone and brought great joy, healing, and freedom to me. Whether it was because I was "as dumb as a door nail" or because God was working with me to dismiss the underlying web of deceit, I do not know...
...And I guess since I bucked against what looked "off" to me, I was not drawn into all the deceit. So I see the class as the water droplets and not the web. I understand my experience was different from many. In reality, I think the class for unique for each of us in many ways. But I think I got more water from class than spider web. And since I dimissed any spider web I felt sticking to me, when I look back at the class, that part is largely irrelevant to my experience, so I don't give it much heed. But that's just my opinion of my experience and how it shapes my view of PFAL.
Suda
Suda, after I read this - your mental picture stayed with me all day long. A fantastic image! All your posts have been great, by the way – but this one – it just floored me! The new students of PFAL were not aware of the web being spun. Typical grads of PFAL didn't see the web for what it is – a manipulative framework of thought – because they were acclimatized to it – like putting on rose-colored glasses. After awhile, you forget they're on and think everything is supposed to have a rose tint to it.
Typical grads of PFAL didn't see the web for what it is – a manipulative framework of thought – because they were acclimatized to it – like putting on rose-colored glasses. After awhile, you forget they're on and think everything is supposed to have a rose tint to it.
And when the glasses come off, everything looks weird (green) for a long time...
The same can be asked about the churches where the altar boys were molested by their priests. Or about the young women, older women, any age women...seeking counsil from their preacher only to be coherced into "blessing" the man of God sexually (this has happened locally in so many different Protestant churches that I've lost count). These folks were just looking for a "closer walk with Thee"...but look what happened to them, yet there are probably people in those congregations who have been blessed by some aspect of their ministries.
There's more I'd like to say, but I'm starting to bore myself, so thanks for listening.
Good point, Tonto. Very good point in fact. But then, your were once 8th corps, weren't you? :)
There are people who feel their lives were wonderfully helped in and by TWI who do not believe that anything real bad happened. There are people who feel their lives were deeply hurt and cannot acknowledge that there was any good. I think there is a lot of resentment on both of these sides. If nothing else, judging by the personal communication avenues I have lost over the years, again from both sides of the issue.
And by the way, I think all of your post was good. And double by the way, you're not boring me. If there is more you'd like to say, please go on, here or in PM is so needed.
Good point, Tonto. Very good point in fact. But then, your were once 8th corps, weren't you?
Nope, Lifted...I was Family 11.
When I spoke of sexual abuse occurring in mainstream religion, I didn't do so to minimize the actions of vpw. I was just pointing out that in people's search for truth, creeps seem to come out of the woodwork. People with life-dominating sins shouldn't be clergy. ..period.
When I spoke of sexual abuse occurring in mainstream religion, I didn't do so to minimize the actions of vpw. I was just pointing out that in people's search for truth, creeps seem to come out of the woodwork. People with life-dominating sins shouldn't be clergy. ..period.
edited for sloppy spelling...
My bad. We had a message exchange once and I no doubt poorly remember it. Maybe we were talking about someone else in the 8th. Maybe you popped in on the 8th corps thread and I got mixed up that way.
What I saw in your post is that the good people may feel they got from the Catholic Church, or their Protestant denomination, or TWI, or any group...id not changed by the bad that may have been dome to others. And it goes the other way as well.
By the way, I in no way think that, by bringing up your point, you were trying to minimize any bas that VPW did. But I understand your disclaimer.
Understood Suda....I guess that my question would be, what in vpw`s life would indicate that he WASN`T a false prophet...a wolf in sheeps clothing?
A wolf is not part of the flock...a wolf infiltrates the flock diguised in order to get close enough to rend and devour thise who would otherwise flee to the shepherd for safety.
I don`t see Jesus cutting the pharacees who hurt God`s people any slack....I don`t see him telling people to apreciate the good and escew the evil...
I see him hold these people in the utmost contempt.
I don`t see vpw as of the same flock....he gathered us about him...immitating the call of the shepherd...he drew us away from the shepherds protection....he offered us green pasture (the word) and while we were distracted... grazing on the riches ...he picked us off one by one for his personal consumption....we were so dadgummed busy focused on what we were eating....blythly trusting that we were under the protection of the shepherd....we relaxed our guard...did not see the need for vigilance..that when it became OUR turn to feel gnashing teeth...not only of the wolf...but those of his whelps that he snuck in while we were unaware...we start bleeting for the shepherds protection...we are bleeding with the flesh torn from us...pitiously...not understanding why we are being consumed...bewildered and wounded...attempting to understand how the wolves came into our midst.
It was brutal and cruel...
I cannot accept that God was at work here. I cannot accept that the just shepherd would call us into danger....
\What I CAN understand that I might have been lured away from his protection ...decieved into following the shepherd away from the safety and protection that was ours.....and then being ravaged because I didn`t have sense enogh to detect the imposter ....enough to run to the real shepherd.
I cannot trust a God that would lead some of us to blessings and sonme of us into rape and death ...I just cannot :(
Wow! This thread has some serious LIFE! But, that's no surprise, because you are discussing The Class! No, sorry, just kidding. Sorry bout that. Wanted to be a S. A. I think I dropped out of this discussion thirty pages ago....
Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread?(SECTION 1 OF 5 OF THIS POST)
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55)
The Need for Empathy in Reading Posts
Empathy: the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
Obviously, my “Page 4" post was and emotional response to pages 5 through 10 of this thread. I revisted them to refocus on my original intent, to understand “What is Happening in this Thread”. To readjust my perspective, and refresh my mind on the “thoughts and feelings” expressed on page 5, I found it necessary to review some of the previous pages. Here are my observations.
The first “hint” in this thread that PFAL and “all in New Knoxville” was not as it appeared was mentioned by Bumpy in post #57 on Page 3.
Mr. Hammeroni @ Jul 20 2007, 09:03 PM) “I remember sitting through the class, and thinking "well, what's the big deal.." when's the big payoff? Spiritiual wisdom and understanding? Mind blowing "revelation"? The "payoff" was always in their lifestyle & maybe a little investment fund on the side??
It was not mentioned again until post #75, on Page 4, by Rascal.
All of that knowledge and all of those scriptures learned and all of those principles operated didn`t help prevent people from becoming incredibly evil, nor inspire them with the heart of a true christian to love one another.
We knew the word, we didn`t HAVE to act as a christian. It was ok to destroy and consume one another like ravening wolves....
She went on to beautifully summarize her beliefs about PFAL and the darkness it caused in her post #77 on the same page.
I guess that what I am saying, and badly, is that in hind sight, pfal doesn`t seem to have been the answer to a relationship with God or a guide to spiritual wholesomeness.
It is scary to me that people think that this knowledge aquired somehow makes one spiritual....when obviously the fruit in so many of our lives and that of our leaders falls in squarely the category *of the flesh*
Genuine Christians simply don`t behave as we were led to believe...but pfal class makes excuses as to why it is acceptable to embrace evil and pretend that one can do so and remain unsullied.
Frankly, I am afraid that this class gives people the illusion of being Christian, but I wonder how many of us are going to one day face Jesus and be told to *depart for I knew you not*
Then comes Deciderator’s post # 82 on Page 5 that is the catalyst for the firestorm to come. He begins with his favorite one-liner from PFAL “"IT'S THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!"
In the body of the post he mentions several times about how “all was not well at The Way” nor with PFAL, and how he applied this one-liner during that time period. (Topics strung together by me, and combined into one quote).
John Lynn came down and there were branch and limb things going on, but I wasn't that interested so when changes were made they didn't affect me much. . . . Later I realized that twig coordinator was protecting us from it all. . . . he told me about the politics and upheaval going on. . . . What was taking place wasn't blessing anyone nor was it making God's Word known.
Sometime in there I got to understand that the Word must not just be rightly divided academically in terms of the Bible, but it must also be rightly divided in terms of when and where and how it is presented. . . . I was hoping to stick around and maybe things would get better. . . . There were difficult times, but by concentrating on what was important - the Word, the Word and nothing but God's wonderful matchless Word, I was spared some of what others went through. . . . That twig coordinator who taught me wasn't perfect, none of us are. But he taught me to work the Word and not work the collaterals or anything else unlss I looked on them as just what one person worked which may or may not be in error. . . . I don't care if what I was taught was plagiarized from someone . . . All I want is God's Word, and if I hear it from VP Wierwille or L. Craig Martindale or . . . we make it worse when we hold them up like rock stars . . . I didn't need to know any of that stuff and I don't have a need to read these documents and other stuff posted here. . . .
So we understand he is aware of politics and upheaval as well as the plagiarism, and that there are other documents and things posted here about the dark side of twi/vpw/pfal, but that he feels no need to know about anymore of the dark side. He never mentions the abuse, sexual or otherwise, so we don’t know if he is aware of it or not.
What about his post really sticks in people’s craw? (1) His approach of sticking to the word, holding it forth in love, and not dwelling on the past nor in darkness, but dwelling in the present and living in the light is seen to be too simple, narrow, and focused. (2) His insistence that posters here are wasting their time by exposing the darkness and seemingly dwelling on it and seemingly not moving forward. (3) His ignorance of the purpose of GSC. (4) He is apparently unaware of how vpw twisted scriptures, beginning in PFAL, to justify an ungodly lifestyle, and how the example he set was modeled by so many in leadership (5) He is apparently unaware of the depth and breadth and severity of the spiritual, emotional, physical, and sexual abuse suffered by multitudes of people (not multitudes I each category, but multitudes encompassing all the categories). (6) His lack of desire to look into it, and thereby be able to understand the mission of GSC and why the stories should be told, and the healing that results from working through the darkness and coming to a new light. If he knew, wouldn’t it open his eyes to the point that he could see how the simplicity of his solution would not work for many? Would it not open his eyes to a bigger picture - the contamination of the leaders and how their deceitful handling of the scriptures tainted what they taught and misguided others into spreading the same polluted doctrines and practices while erroneously believing they were the truth and in alignment and harmony with the scriptures? And because so many here feel passionately that those stories must be told, it is brought to his attention in very descriptive terms.
Skyrider first brings it up later on that page in his post #86.
Now many come here to clarify twi's doctrinal errors, expose abuses, denounce the mog/celebrity status (idolizing men), and in effect....hold forth the truth of the scriptures.
Rascal adds to it in her post # 88 with
A better understanding of the word did nothing to keep twi leaders from committing the most evil of atrocities on innocent Christians. I think we`d damned well better figure out if a *better knowledge of the word* is all that`s necessary for a genuine Christian walk. . . . Jesus warned the believers extensively concerning those whom would harm them...yes even those who knew scripture....and yes in very unflattering terms. Sorry that it makes you uncomfortable, but it remains a vital and important job that needs to be done.
In post #93, Skyrider points out that love is just not dwelling in the light, but must also include
Well then.....if I LOVE like Jesus Christ loved, then I would confront pharisee/sadducee doctrine and warn the people rather than go sit in the synagogue and read the scrolls.
In post #97, Tbone expands on this idea
I don't think we're to focus on darkness either.
However I think it is our moral duty to focus the light of God's Word on the moral darkness of these predators. II Peter 2 comes to mind, warning people of false teachers and their moral depravity. Yes – it's nasty business talking about the hypocrisy and moral depravity of TWI– not something I particularly enjoy. But it seems to be one of the necessary tasks of Christians submitting to the moral dictates of the Bible. . . . It's uncomfortable to think about TWI's crap - because God gave us a conscience!!!!!!!!
After reading all the persuasive arguments, Deciderator stays with his passion, and gives us a further reason why he does not care to delve into the darkness in his post #101 on Page 6.
I am not interested in lurid one-sided stories. I have heard and been around too many of them in my own life. . . . Sorry, but what I see is hurt people lashing back and obsessing on events that took place decades ago. We all were hurt, but no one can walk forward in a straight line if their gaze is fixed backward over their shoulder. Stop picking at that scab and let it heal. It looks to me as if the bitterness held in is eating people up because they are holding it in.
If he can’t hear both sides of the story, he doesn’t care to hear only one side. That I can understand (and can accept that some cannot). He fails to realize, however, that people are not holding it in, they are letting it out so that healing can take place and they can move forward. And that the old song “I Love to tell the Story” of the good news of the gospel has a similar application in here,
“I love to tell the story, because I know ’tis true,
It answers (substituted for satisfies) my questions (substituted for longings) as nothing else would do. . .
I love to tell the story, it did so much for me; And that is just the reason I tell it now to thee. . . .
I love to tell the story, for some have never heard The message of deliverance (substituted for salvation) . . .”
He restates his belief that we must forgive, even extreme acts. But as he may not understand the severity of the acts committed by some in twi, he may not realize his example does not strike the punch he thought it would.
Something valuable I still hold that VP said was it is easier for me to forgive others when I think of what I have been forgiven for. . . .I don't think Wierwille of Martindale ever hunted down Christians and murdered them in cold blood, but all of our Bibles contain records of those in the early church who found a way to forgive and love Saul of Tarsus. We have those records to not only marvel at what they did,but also to understand what we may do, and must do, in order to move God's Word.
Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread?(SECTION 2 OF 5 OF THIS POST)
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55)
The Need for Empathy in Reading Posts
Rascal brings the severity to his attention with her comment in post #102
As far as screwing up? Yeah we all do ...but not all of us drug and rape and steal from the very believer given in our care.
But we need to remain mindful, that the stories are one-sided, and that he probably is not aware of the numerous similar stories that give weight to each other and lend credence to that one-side. Just a reminder, not a statement of qualification. And Wordwolf, in post #103, restates it well and puts it in question form for his honest consideration.
Me, I would rarely even mention the evil actions vpw did, except we keep getting people dedicated to COVERING UP the evil actions vpw did-then accusing the rest of US of being fixated because we refuse to let them cover up his evil acts. Tell me this.... Can you honestly say "I think it was terrible that vpw drugged and raped women, and organized things to make that easier and arrange things so he could get away with it"? If so, then I see little reason to continue discussing it with you- you're informed, consider it wrong,
and won't be pretending it didn't happen. If not, then the motivation for us to STOP talking about it is NOT what you reported, and you're fooling yourself, if not us. You DID just claim you never put wierwille on a pedastal- is that really true? Please think that over for a bit.
Again, I point out, Deciderator is not covering up, just choosing not to uncover. WordWolf again points out that using light to expose darkness is very beneficial, and that is why it will always be done here at GSC.
We CAN tell the truth about things hidden, and ALSO spread love, kindness and forgiveness! Imagine that! Sometimes love and kindness involve helping someone face their pain, and sitting with them and listening, without reciting Bible verses in response. At the GSC, a LOT of people have gotten that kind of help. . . .The idea that we must EITHER spread love, kindness and forgiveness OR report the evils that have been performed on suffering brethren is a "FALSE DILEMMA." We don't have only two choices, and they are not mutually-exclusive. For that matter, HIDING the evils that have been performed on suffering brethren is not synonymous with spreading love, forgiveness and kindness, either.
WordWolf again points out the fallacy of the narrowness of “move on” philosophy proposed by Deciderator.
Do you know how long it takes to rebuild a life when someone has decimated it with acts of rape and other destructive, evil deeds? Any PROFESSIONAL could tell you that it's not a 5-minute job with a pep talk, a verse recitation, and a pat on the back.
WordWolf also expands on the severity of actions taken by vpw and lcm with
So, because some people murdered, and vpw and lcm didn't and only ruined lives without killing them-although they DID drive people to commit suicide- EACH of them, does that count as killing someone?-we're not supposed to take offense at what evils they committed? We're supposed to shrug, say "well, people sin" and just give them a free pass? That SEEMS to be what you're SUGGESTING.
The attempts to persuade Deciderator have continued for 2 pages. Jonny Lingo seems to be getting tired of it, and wants to redirect the thread back to the original topic with his post #104.
In his post #107, Deciderator does not say he agrees or disagrees with what Wordwolf had posted, only “Wordwolf, what I said I meant.” So we have no further information from him concerning his knowledge of the amount or severity of the different kinds of abuse people suffered while affiliated with twi. We do not know if he is aware of the sexual abuse or those that committed suicide. He reiterates he does not have hero worship for vpw but describes his respect of him as
I gave respect just like I give respect to anyone who treats me decently. I was not blinded by idol-worship.
To me that speaks of the due respect I described in my previous post. He goes on to describe his heroes, noting that they, too, had erred (due to being deceived or mistaken is implied by the use of the word falliable), but did not elaborate on those errors (and does not need to do so as they are not germane to this thread, imo), but indicates they were distasteful and/or disturbing to him.
And I will add, without going into detail, that they were all as fallible as you or I or any of those some of you take sport in savaging. I saw and heard things I wish I hadn't.
The next 3 posts seem to take on the flavor of accusations versus imploring and persuasion. Oldiesman then posts his support for Deciderator, noting that he seems to be type person vpw wanted to reach, one who would become a student of the Bible. Jonny Lingo posts next with additional support for Deciderator’s points of view. A battle seems to be raging now, with platoons being formed. Those opposed to Deciderator’s pov outnumber those in agreement with it. People seem to be getting weary of rehashing the same information, and few (sometimes, no) new arguments appear to be coming to the table. Deciderator’s post #120 address some the accusatory remarks. He seems to be wearing thin on patience, also. (In a later post he notes that he feels some owe him an apology.) He brings up that actions of the severity Rascal has described should have been addressed through the criminal justice system, and since they have not, he will accord those accused the presumption of innocence. (The fact that he has been falsely accused in a court of law seems to weigh heavily on his stance. This fact is stated in his post #135 on page 7).
In post #122 on Page 7, Mr. Hammeroni points out that in the case of lcm, the sexual abuse did go to a court of law, although it was settled out of court rather than by a jury.
The judge in the case ruled that the case deserved jury trial.. that there was substantial evidence of not just abuse, but a PATTERN of it..
In post #124, Mr. Hammeroni states the scripture basis erroneously used to by twi leadership to justify their sexual abuse
I guess that makes it true that every woman in the kindgom belongs to da king (everything else, for that matter..) I guess loy wasn't such a bad guy..
just taking what was "his"..
The tenor of the thread is starting to reach a new level. Shots fired in the air were ineffective, as were shots fired around posters. Now the machine guns are coming out. Posters have gone to their trenches, dug in and refuse to budge off their causes. Post #127 by Rascal is a beauty.
These things DID happen to your brothers and sisters in christ ....some of it documented in courts of law, many many instances of first hand accounts have been reported here and on other sites and corroborated.
John Lynn himself confirmed that the young women had been drugged and raped. Posters (note plural here) here and other sites reported being given drinks by your man of God (I say that with the utmost sarcasm) Geer only to later awake being raped by vpw.
Is that too graphic? Do you care about the lives destroyed? Do you care about the women who were marked and avoided who were declared posessed and so slandered that their own families would have nothing to do with them by the time vp or lcm were done because they seemed likely to tell or didn`t cooperate???
HOW can a genuine christian, commit these atrocities??? I don`t think they can...I don`t think that the word the word and nothing but the word makes you a Christian, a man of the spirit, or even a person of character and decency.
Again I say ... there is much more necessary to the christian walk than an idolatry of the scripture, which I believe was evidenced by the men who were unspeakably evil to the innocent entrusted to that ministry.
Scriptural mastery doesn`t impress me one bit, Charity, peace, long suffering gentleness meekness, loving God loving your neighbor ...THESE things are what we were told identified our spiritual brothers and sisters...I notice that not once is knowledge of the scriptures listed a s a fruit of one of the spirit.
I do notice that in spite of the word the word and nothing but the word wierwille/lcm/geer had no problem with indulging in rampant alcoholism fornication, adultery, anger, lust etc ...(JUST to name a few) all clearly activities that identify someone who is of the flesh.
I think that you are earnest and genuine in your understanding of your responsibility...I just think that there is a lot more to the eqaution than you have been taught.
We have more responsibility than scriptural study to one another.
Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread?(SECTION 3 OF 5 OF THIS POST)
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55)
The Need for Empathy in Reading Post
Oldiesman’s frustrations are growing, as evidenced by his comment to Pond that she can unchain herself from her computer is she doesn’t like reading what Deciderator has to say, and then pointedly asking Rascal
Are your finger-pointing haranguing accusations over yet, Rascal?
I get it. You are on a Godly mission from the true God to drum in posters' brains that VP & LCM & Co. were evil men. Drugging and raping and drugging and raping and drugging and raping young helpless girls. It can't be said enough. Over and over and over again, it needs to be said over and over and over again. And again.
But, can't you tolerate some posts about what some posters learned in PFAL without engaging in your endless tirades? Sure you can. You are a very loving person. Yes. The end
What does this post indicate to me? Number one, OM is tired of the “bickering”. Rascal has made her point. When is enough, enough? (Actually a very good question.) But as was pointed out to me recently (and I am thankful I got it), she is not upset because she “can't you tolerate some posts about what some posters learned in PFAL”. She can’t tolerate people saying the other side should not be exposed, leave it in the past, move forward, because she feels passionately for many, that simply can’t be done without first facing the horrors and coming to grips with them. Once they have their minds around the where, when, how, who, then they can understand where they as individuals lost their on following God, and followed the leader, instead. When they have learned from their mistakes, they can determine how not to repeat them in the future. In the processing of doing the above, they have released their confusion and anger, and can come to some degree of forgiveness for themselves, first, and then others. At that point healing is taking place, and they can then move on. For some of us, the exercise only needs to be completed (maybe once?) or a few times. For others, the layers of the onion have to be peeled back one at a time, and it has to be repeated over and over again until all the hurt is faced, understood, and forgiven, and that onion disappears. For some it might be accomplished in a hours, for others it can take years. Time is not the important issue here, healing is.
And number 2, does Oldiesman believe such actions are possible? That they may have happened? That they did happen? Does he even need or want to know? Or does he dismiss them completely? I don’t know.
Now Rascal lobs a grenade into that trench to see if she can move Deciderator.
You are at a point here....you are being offered the chance for the next step in spiritual growth and understanding. It is your chance. We have all been where you are now....we have all had to face this choice....whether to take that next step, whether to face the difficult truth concerning the debauchery and cruelty of twi leaders. You can learn the truth, the true spiritual natures of the people who instructed you, who layed the flawed foundation of your basic understanding....or you can retreat back to where you feel safe and warm, protected by that which is familiar to you. Your choice, nobody can make it for you. The only person limited is you.
Maybe, though, instead of lobbing the grenade, it was time to call a cease-fire, and allow Deciderator to move forward at his own pace. Just throwing that out for thought.
Oldiesman and Deciderator try to change the subject back to the original subject of the thread, “A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL”. Then Rascal reminds them, that’s only the first half of the thread title. She’s responding to the “Do you still believe them?” half, and giving the “why” behind her “no” answer.
In post #135, Deciderator answers Rascal’s questions as to whether or not he will take the chance for the next step in spiritual growth and understanding.
The only thing I will listen to concerning spiritual matters is how someone handles the Scriptures.
I was so distant from a lot of TWI that they did not have the impact you imagine. In the last 17 years since I have been away from them I have not retreated anywhere. It's not my style.
While I lead a quiet and peaceable life, I'm also restless in many respects. I'm a man in motion and I am moving forward with my life, not backward. I like doing new things.
Since I posted in this forum, there has been case after case of people just out and out fabricating false opinions and motivations and ascribing them to me. Purely knee-jerk reactions by those who see TWI or PFAL and go NUTS! NUTS! NUTS! I hope you understand that when someone treats me that way right of the bat, I am not as open to what they say as I would have been otherwise.
His post tells me that he’s feeling people are trying to back him into a corner, or drag him there, either one. He would prefer them to move away and give him some breathing room. The harder the push at this point, the harder he’s going to dig his heels in. As long as he’s fighting for breathing room, he isn’t likely to devote time to reflection. My advice, drop it for now. If he stays active here, the subject will come up again. Between now and then, he’ll have some time for reflection if he chooses to pursue it on his own.
The pleads continue. Listen to his answer. I added the bold and the numbers.
They may well be true, but everyone deserves a fair shake. They deserve (1) the presumption of innocence and (2) the right to face their accusers, (3) the right to cross examine hostile witnesses, (4) the right to present exculpatory evidence, (5) the right to present friendly witnesses and (6) the right to appeal after conviction. Are you referring me to all that? (the six preceeding items?)
First of all, he does not deny them, says they may well be true. However, he told us previously that he requires more than one side of the story to be able to weigh the evidence, and determine his “verdict”. Here, explains more fully what he requires. And that information is not available here. Only portions of it, and he will not make a decision based on partial information. Period. End of story. He goes on to again tell us what he will consider.
I am only concerned with how the Scriptures are handled.
In the next post, at the top of page 8, WordWolf does a good job of presenting information relating to this.
So, claiming that in the nation of Israel, "technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king", which completely contradicts the entire Mosaic Law,
does that count as handling Scriptures, and not doing so correctly?
How about claims that under grace, sex between 2 people not married to each other is fine "if you can handle it," which contradicts the Epistles, does that count as handling Scriptures, and not doing so correctly?
And how someone handles the Scriptures PRIVATELY, is that insignificant compared to how they handle it PUBLICLY at the podium? If so, Jimmy Swaggart was immaculate, since he was perfect AT THE PODIUM but acted poorly IN PRIVATE.
Those teachings of vpw are verifiable, and are examples of how he mishandled scripture to at least some of us. Has Deciderator heard those teachings? If so, does he believe the scriptures were mishandled? I haven’t read far enough yet to know the answers to those questions, or if he answers them at all. However, what actions vpw took in private based upon those public teachings is not provable in the legal sense. They can be assumed, they can be corroborated by others, but legally speaking they can not be proven as vpw is dead. And Deciderator requires legal proof to go any further in his consideration of the accusations. So, at this point, we must accept that he does not deny they happened, in fact, believes they may well have happened. That’s as far as he is willing to go, and has explained why several times. We may not like his decision, but shouldn’t we accept his decision knowing that his requirements can not be met? Can we get blood out of a turnip?
The hammering continues by both sides. New information is introduced by Doojable in post #148, when she distinguishes between giving vpw credit, and giving God the credit working through many people associated with twi. She expounds on it later in post #153,
My point is that GOD knows how to reach a heart. The allegiance belongs to him and not a class or a ministry. And I'm not only talking about TWI either..
Giving God the glory is an excellent reminder. However, I’d say the camp is still divided according to previous posts, on whether or not posters believe God did or did not work through vpw. And again, it is a subjective matter, not an objective one that can be proven, even in a non-legal sense.
Then Jonny Lingo brings up the example of David and Uriah, and the fact that David repented.
And yet, David repented, and later wrote much scripture in that he became trusted of God to do so. Did VPW repent? Dunno. Maybe. Maybe not. But, I think I personally am ready to let God Almighty decide whether or not VPW was born again, and whether or not he actually started out to help people or not...
He is not the first in this thread to voice his opinion on whether or not VPW was a born-again Christian. But again, all the points raised here are subjective, and not objective. We’ll never know the answers to them, but these topics are hot buttons for many.
In post #152, Waysider brings up a point that confuses me to a point.
I, for one, have no problem with someone cherishing their fond memories. I know I cherish mine. I think it is wrong, however, to insist that their experiences must represent the true nature of the organization.
I don’t see where people have made this correlation, that their good experiences = a good nature of the “formal” organization. In fact, I see the opposite. I don’t believe since page 5 of this thread Oldiesman has said anything of a negative nature about the organization of twi, but I think everyone else has pointed to “dark sides” of it. The point of contention seems to be when the change took place, or if it was always there.
Rascal brings up a distinction between David being of the flesh and vpw having the “opportunity” to be born of God’s spirit. I say opportunity, as Rascal concludes her comments with the fact she does not believe that he was. Again, a subjective versus objective point. And I don’t know if it is germane to this discussion, or a noteworthy observation.
I want to point this exchange out, because I will refer to it later if I post a “Page 6" of my observations. In response to Rascal’s post of
Johnny, lusts I understand, infidelities I understand shortcomings I can forgive.......but the evil went far deeper than that. A willingness to destroy anyone who would’nt play ball. Slaughter of anyones reputation who might spill the beans.
I am talking of a 17 yr old girl here whom vpw alienated from her family and threw off of the wow field with accusations of possession....funnily enough a week or so AFTER she refused him sex on the bus.
Jonny that goes beyond the pail of minor shortcomings....there isn`t just a single story...it wasn`t just vp....
I have no idea how much the drugs and alcohol plays into allowing things to go so bad.....but it wasn`t even just the adultery and savaging of reputations here....we have first hand accounts AND confirmation from top leadership of the drugged drinks of unsuspecting teenagers, for the purpose of sexual relations.
Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread?(SECTION 4 OF 5 OF THIS POST)
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55)
The Need for Empathy in Reading Post
Jonny replies
Rascal, I recognize those things as heinous. And I recognize that they happened in The Way. I am just saying that I don't believe that it was VPWs intent at first, that he wanted to help at first but went bad due to the same sins that mankind many times succumbs to, that's all. It's perhaps the only place where you and I diverge I 'spose.
Some “cool headed” and light hearted remarks are exchanged. Things are calming down a bit. Excathedra has been following the thread. Since has been contributing short, concise thoughts occasionally since page 2. Now, on page 166 she comes further on board, and asks Jonny to clarify his perception of vpw.
jonny, please don't kill me . . .
but how do you feel about veepee and motorcoach and young ladies that didn't know what was going on . . . do you consider that kind of thing damaged goods . . . (i know you apologized) but i still wonder about your perception of him.
Jonny answers her well soon thereafter.
I know that these things happened. Whether they happened to "the t" as described by some, I don't know. But, any kind of extramarital sex with the MOGS . . encouraged by them is in fact a sin and is as I said "heinous".
Now when you ask; “do you consider that kind of thing damaged goods” I am not sure what you are asking. If you are asking if those who were the perpetrators were "damaged goods", I would definitely say yes. Now, according to one poster here, a woman, there was definitely a certain circle of women who were proud to have been a part of all of that, servicing the MOGs ya know. I would have to say that if they were involved and recruiting women into all of that that they were acting in a very damaged manner as well. Could they have become more damaged by it, even though they willingly participated? Yes. Could they be over it by now? Yes. But, maybe no. Only they know I spose.
And those who were innocent, are they damaged now? I dunno. They could be very damaged. They could have gotten over it by now and could be leading productive lives with all of that behind them. Just depends upon them, and or their time table I spose. I pray that all who got hurt in that manner can get to where they are not hurt by it any more. If it were me, I would be endeavoring to put it behind me as soon as possible, so that the "inflictors" would no longer be able to hurt me, the "inflictee". That way I wouldn't be "flicted" no more. But that's just me.
We become damaged either by our own wrong decisions, or because we trust someone who then damages us. VP damaged himself and then others because he succumbed to the temptation of sin for a very long season.
What do I think of VPW you ask? I am thankful to God that he taught the PFAL class, and that I got to sit through it. I am very not happy that he succumbed to the desires of the flesh and hurt so many people. But I won't throw out the good that I learned from him just because he lost it and became a really bad guy when the power went to his head.
This is just conjecture on my part. But I think some may be “ticked off” that he describes the acts committed as heinous, but describes vpw as a really bad guy. “Heinous” carries with it strong emotions and extreme disapproval while “really bad guy” does not. It is a bit incongruent to my way of thinking to say a “really bad guy” committed “heinous” acts. A more consistent statement would be heinous acts are committed by heinous (or evil, monstrous, abhorrent, horrendous, odious, or villainous) people. However, I am not trying to put words into Jonny’s mouth, just to point out a striking dissimilarity. WordWolf notes this, too, when he says
Me, I wasn't really exposed to the harmful side, and am well aware there were many positive experiences while in twi- mine and other people's, but that doesn't erase the existence of the bad experiences had by others, and attempts to belittle or erase THOSE get my attention.
Excathedra rejoins the thread in post #177. She quotes a portion of Jonny Lingo’s response to her along with the link to m’s story.
We become damaged either by our own wrong decisions, or because we trust someone who then damages us. VP damaged himself and then others because he succumbed to the temptation of sin for a very long season.
What do I think of VPW you ask? I am thankful to God that he taught the PFAL class
To me, it is significant where she ends the quote. What is she saying by doing so? I can’t say for sure, but I’ll venture a guess. People’s involvement with twi usually began with the PFAL class. The truth some learned in the class touched their hearts and healed their souls, and ignited a spiritual awakening unknown to them until that time. Thus, the class served as a catalyst for them to align themselves with twi and “go for broke” giving their all to learn more about God, how to worship and serve Him and his people. It changed their lives forever. And unfortunately for some, their involvement led to great personal devastation and decimation. Is Excathedra asking, was the good I gained from PFAL worth the cost I eventually paid? I’m not sure, but that’s my guess. And for each individual, that is an honest question to ask ourselves.
I think her statement goes further. By extension, she is asking Jonny is the good he gained is worth the price paid by all? If there had never been a vpw nor a twi, would God have reached us by another means? And would that means have been sufficient? And if so, would that other means not have been preferable if it had allowed those who had their hearts shattered and souls stolen to be spared such personal torture? If that is what she is asking, I can understand how she got from the point a to point be. But is it a legitimate question? Is it logically inferable? Is it reasonable to ask if person a’s decision to take PFAL can make them responsible and accountable for the evil perpetrated against person b? Emotionally, I can see where the question would be asked. Logically, I don’t think it is a fair question, as person a’s action did not cause nor directly contribute to person b’s hurt. Only the violator is responsible for his or her actions. If Excathedra indeed was asking this question, I do not say this to scold or shame her, just to get us all to think about whether or not it is a pertinent question.
The link has been supplied for any who wish to pursue the information. Is it an invitation? a plea? a demand? Is it one for some, another for someone else? I don’t know.
Catcup follows immediately and copies the link, stating that she can verify m’s story as m ws her 6th Corps roomie. She puts into words what I had been pondering?
So do you think all the sacrifices these women and others were forced to make, were worth your "blessing"? That's pretty damn selfish, knowing their lives were sacrificed so VP could sell you on a pack of lies, which you obviously STILL BELIEVE
Rascal follows immediately with a taunt, a dare, for Deciderator.
I don`t believe `ciderator has the courage to read that account.
Catcup comes immediately behind and double dares him.
Probably right. Or at least the courage to finally face the truth.
It would seem civility has been abandoned at this point. Rascal and Catcup may be thinking, “It’s now or never for Deciderator. Extreme times call for extreme measures.”
Page 10 begins with exwaycorps stating he can verify m’s story also, as "M" was his/her branch coordinator/WOW sister in State College,PA. '76-'77, and he/she has posted about that story previously. Rascal points out that 76-77 coincides with “the good old days” of twi1.
WhiteDove asks Catcup “what exactly is it that you can verify?” Those the words “what exactly” may come across as sarcastic or caustic, in his later posts you realize he wants/needs specific information (not to pry, but to determine if the word verify is being used loosely, or in the legal sense), thus the choice of words. Catcup’s answer is given immediately.
Deciderator does not accept the dare/double dare, but instead deflects them by stating something else he learned from PFAL and still believes. I think some received that as being a smart aleck remark. To me it said “I have said over and over and over again, until I am blue in the face, that I am not going to look at one-sided accusations and given valid reasons for my decision. I have tried to get the thread back “on track” to people discussing what (specific points) they learned in PFAL and do they still believe them (those specific points). Yet people keep disregarding my decision, and keep pushing me. This time I’m not going to take the bait and try to answer them again. It is obvious they will not respect nor accept my decision, so I will change the just change the subject, and do so with some levity. Perhaps that will cool things down and get us off the path we have been on for so long.”
But the tone of the responses remains antagonistic. He tries to change the subject again by going back two days in time to an exchange between Jonny and Doojable regarding a quote in her signature from "Anais Nin". Jonny had flagged his question as “Off Topic” and asked Dooj if this was the same author who had written erotic stories, some with older men and very young girls, little children, a subject he had found disturbing. Dooj has answered in the affirmative, but that even though she was aware of those stories, she had never read them, but other things by the author. She also noted that the she was surprised when she learned this quote she liked came from Anais Nin as it was not characteristic of the author. But Dooj liked it so she used it. Deciderator made an interesting comment, showing an apropos parallel, and, again ending it with a bit a jest.
Doojabe, what I am finding out here is that if you like a quote by someone, then you endorse everything that person ever did or said or was ever accused of. That Anais Nin, she ahem! got around, didn't she?
Exie comes back in and asks Deciderator and Jonny if they have read m’s story yet. Rascal states she want to know, also, and further wonders
I want to know if this behavior is based on ignorance of the facts at hand, or knowing the truth but not caring about the lives destroyed.
Evidently she has taken offense at his choice to ignore their suggestion to read the story, just as he has taken offense at his statement that he will not look into one-sided accusations has been ignored. Further, she interprets his refusal to read m’s story as him not caring about lives destroyed. (I disagree with her assessment and think she may be reading attitudes into his post that are inaccurate.)
Edited by Suda
Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread?(SECTION 5 OF 5 OF THIS POST)
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55)
The Need for Empathy in Reading Post
White Dove rejoins the conversation, and voices opinions similar to Deciderator on his unwillingness to accept one-sided stories as absolute truth. (Some punctuation added for clarity).
No offence but that is hardly verifying anything that is accepting an account of an incident at face value. . . . I can understand how you might accept the account at face value as she was your roommate and knowing of R**k and other things he has done. You may be correct in your assessment but it still falls short of verifying . . .
Again, WhiteDove is pointing out the difference between legal and layman definitions. As stated before, to some this is splitting hairs. To others it a huge, significant factor. Deciderator and WhiteDove fall in the latter school of thought. Note both have said one can believe and accept the accounts as truth, but they can not be proven as truth. Neither has denied the accounts. In fact, both have stated the stories could and may well represent the truth.
I post about my concern of Catcup’s statements as discussed above asking if it is fair for all twi’ers to accept the responsibility for the abuse committed by leadership, or is that asking us to accept misplaced guilt for something we had no knowledge of nor control over.
Some may look at the posts in pages 5 - 10, and feel it would be appropriate to quote a famous line from Cool Hand Luke “What we got here is... failure to communicate.” I would disagree. Many enlightening insights were shared and were communicated effectively. When the tempers started to flare, however, there was more talking “at” each other than “to” each other for a while. I think we would all due well to heed the advice of sirguessalot in a recent podcast, to try to listen to each other with more empathy. To try and see what a person says through the poster’s eyes, try and understand where they are coming from. To try to identify what feelings, emotions, thoughts, and attitudes they are trying to express with their words. Our conclusions may be wrong, and if so, they can clarify them for us in a later post. But even if our conclusions are wrong, I think we’d come to a clearer understanding of the “big picture” they are trying to communicate. And the more effective we are as listeners, the better we become at communicating our intended thoughts, as well as receiving the intended thoughts of others. I’d also recommend we try to implement his suggestion of:
Learn to respond to others with honest, open questions instead of counsel, corrections, etc. An honest, open question is one you cannot possibly ask while thinking, “I know the right answer to this and I sure hope you give it to me…” .
If you have not checked out his thread “possibly helpful touchstones for the art of being genuine friends, ...merely an example for the GSC to ponder and explore”, I’d highly recommend it.
Suda
P. S. Off topic, but Socks, back on page 3, in post #42, you used a term I’ve heard before, but don’t know what it means. Could you clarify it, please? I’m just curious what the “Way Nash” is/was.
remember back in 1970, going to the Youth Advance that year at the Way Nash
Dooj, is it related to your post #954
When I left "The Mother Ship Nash" I felt freed. I was free to minister wherever and to whomever. (Excuse the bad grammar.)
Maybe it’s a trekkie thing, and I am woefully ignorant of Star Trek, Star Wars, etc., that entire genre
I think we would all due well to heed the advice of sirguessalot in a recent podcast,
to try to listen to each other with more empathy.
To try and see what a person says through the poster’s eyes,
try and understand where they are coming from.
To try to identify what feelings, emotions, thoughts, and attitudes they are trying to express with their words.
Our conclusions may be wrong, and if so, they can clarify them for us in a later post.
But even if our conclusions are wrong, I think we’d come to a clearer understanding of the “big picture” they are trying to communicate. And the more effective we are as listeners, the better we become at communicating our intended thoughts, as well as receiving the intended thoughts of others. I’d also recommend we try to implement his suggestion of:
There were so many good points in that paragraph that I decided to make them easier to spot.
...Before I am accused again by someone who knows me not of "hero worship" or something similar, let me elaborate a little on the sort of men I described earlier.
Instead of pretending to know who my heroes have been, let me tell you myself, because I know better than you.
Please keep in mind that I learned to read with books about their deeds, spoke to them and others who were there about their experiences and lessons they learned many times; and whom I was trained to not be in awe of, but behave as if they were just "one of the boys." Those begging for autographs and looking on in drop-jawed suck-up wonder never got invited.
Ever know anyone who has killed with their bare hands, used a bayonet to eviscerate a man and have his guts spill in their lap or have arterial blood geyser into their face; and not just once but many times? I tell you what, it'll send a shudder through you to be playing bridge with someone who did, and have that thought enter as they smilingly hand you the deck of cards to cut.
I learned fearlessness from "Chesty" Puller, who was in a hole fighting the enemy close enough to toss a hand grenade in there, and when the warning was shouted he just snorted, spat at the thing and shouted above the din, "I'm Chesty Puller! They can't kill me!" and durned if the thing wasn't a dud....
....These kind of men were mighty special. I learned much from them and was comfortable in their presence. Some I knew for decades. There were a number of others like them whom I knew or met socially.
And I will add, without going into detail, that they were all as fallible as you or I or any of those some of you take sport in savaging. I saw and heard things I wish I hadn't.
So when, as a grown man, I was exposed to those whom some of the rest of you idolized, I did not. I gave respect just like I give respect to anyone who treats me decently.
I was not blinded by idol-worship.
This post has been in my thoughts for awhile….I think it's insulting to true military heroes to put vpw in the same class as them. Sure, everyone has their faults…nobody is perfect. But we recognize acts of bravery and self-sacrifice as indicative of the real character of the person – a particular act merely revealing what they're made of and testifies of their allegiance to the objectives of their country. vpw was supposed to be a minister of God, fighting the good fight of faith, focused on the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Yet his DOMINANT BEHAVIOR PATTERNS, his battlefield tactics so to speak - line up more with the spiritual enemy he mentions in the opening of PFAL – whose objectives are to steal, kill and destroy. vpw should be classified as a spiritual traitor.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
johniam
quote: However, knowing what rape does to a woman, I am too biased in my heart to give any credit to VPW in regard to "his ministry." I am sure you are correct, the man must have had some redeeming qualities. But I cannot give him credit for having a godly ministry, in light of how he used that ministry to hurt women.
Well, there you GO judge poop! Youth here doesn't seem to KNOW about the disappearance of the old school.
Well, there you Go, Abigail. You just admitted that you can't compartmentalize. VP did good. VP did bad. Two separate things. You can't see this.
If God doesn't credit people for anything they do then people are just robots; whatever they do is just part of God's plan. I don't care if you don't believe in my devil.
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excathedra
i wish i had the stayed mind (to read), never mind the renewed mind
i can't get through all of this
--
dearest suda
that one sentence caught my eye, and i tend to disagree
that's all i wanted to say on that point
--
to everyone or anyone else
i hope we understand all this someday or at least not care :) :) :)
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Suda
Love you ((((((Exie)))))).
Suda
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excathedra
((((((((((((((((((((((( very big ditto )))))))))))))))))))))))
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waysider
" Too few good things I learned taking PFAL"
OOPS! My bad
I changed a word
Hey! whatta ya know! I learned about that in PFAL!
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Abigail
Actually, I did acknowledge he must have had redeeming qualities. What I said I could not give him credit for is having a godly ministry. In other words, I don't give VPW credit for the good people got out of TWI. That credit belongs to God and to many of the participants within TWI - people like Rascal, Suda, ExC - people who were honest and good from the get go and stayed honest and good. VPW doesn't fall under that unbrella in my opinion and therefore VPW does not get credit for anything good that came out of TWI.
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Abigail
You know, JohnIAM, I can't help but wonder just how godly you would think VPW's ministry was if you had been raped by him. Imagine a man you trust and respect, one you think has opened God's Word to you, suddenly pins you down and starts kissing you. You can smell the stale alcohol on his breath. Imagine yourself struggling, telling him no as you forces himself into your body.
No, I don't think you are truly capable of imagining such a thing. See, I don't have to imagine it. My perp wasn't VPW, but that makes little difference because VPW was a perpetrator to more than one woman.
However, if you were capable of truly imagining that - of truly putting yourself in that place, of feeling the shock, horror, revulsion, betrayal, confusion and shame, you might be singing a different tune.
Yes, good things came out of TWI. But no, VPW doesn't deserve credit for them.
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T-Bone
Suda, after I read this - your mental picture stayed with me all day long. A fantastic image! All your posts have been great, by the way – but this one – it just floored me! The new students of PFAL were not aware of the web being spun. Typical grads of PFAL didn't see the web for what it is – a manipulative framework of thought – because they were acclimatized to it – like putting on rose-colored glasses. After awhile, you forget they're on and think everything is supposed to have a rose tint to it.
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doojable
And when the glasses come off, everything looks weird (green) for a long time...
Sound familiar?
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Lifted Up
Good point, Tonto. Very good point in fact. But then, your were once 8th corps, weren't you? :)
There are people who feel their lives were wonderfully helped in and by TWI who do not believe that anything real bad happened. There are people who feel their lives were deeply hurt and cannot acknowledge that there was any good. I think there is a lot of resentment on both of these sides. If nothing else, judging by the personal communication avenues I have lost over the years, again from both sides of the issue.
And by the way, I think all of your post was good. And double by the way, you're not boring me. If there is more you'd like to say, please go on, here or in PM is so needed.
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tonto
Nope, Lifted...I was Family 11.
When I spoke of sexual abuse occurring in mainstream religion, I didn't do so to minimize the actions of vpw. I was just pointing out that in people's search for truth, creeps seem to come out of the woodwork. People with life-dominating sins shouldn't be clergy. ..period.
edited for sloppy spelling...
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Lifted Up
My bad. We had a message exchange once and I no doubt poorly remember it. Maybe we were talking about someone else in the 8th. Maybe you popped in on the 8th corps thread and I got mixed up that way.
What I saw in your post is that the good people may feel they got from the Catholic Church, or their Protestant denomination, or TWI, or any group...id not changed by the bad that may have been dome to others. And it goes the other way as well.
By the way, I in no way think that, by bringing up your point, you were trying to minimize any bas that VPW did. But I understand your disclaimer.
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Deciderator
WHEW!
Glad I missed out on all that!
Rascal, I sure wish you had been in my twig....
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J0nny Ling0
Wow! This thread has some serious LIFE! But, that's no surprise, because you are discussing The Class! No, sorry, just kidding. Sorry bout that. Wanted to be a S. A. I think I dropped out of this discussion thirty pages ago....
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Suda
Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread? (SECTION 1 OF 5 OF THIS POST)
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55)
The Need for Empathy in Reading Posts
Empathy: the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
Obviously, my “Page 4" post was and emotional response to pages 5 through 10 of this thread. I revisted them to refocus on my original intent, to understand “What is Happening in this Thread”. To readjust my perspective, and refresh my mind on the “thoughts and feelings” expressed on page 5, I found it necessary to review some of the previous pages. Here are my observations.
The first “hint” in this thread that PFAL and “all in New Knoxville” was not as it appeared was mentioned by Bumpy in post #57 on Page 3.
It was not mentioned again until post #75, on Page 4, by Rascal.
She went on to beautifully summarize her beliefs about PFAL and the darkness it caused in her post #77 on the same page.Then comes Deciderator’s post # 82 on Page 5 that is the catalyst for the firestorm to come. He begins with his favorite one-liner from PFAL “"IT'S THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!"
In the body of the post he mentions several times about how “all was not well at The Way” nor with PFAL, and how he applied this one-liner during that time period. (Topics strung together by me, and combined into one quote).
So we understand he is aware of politics and upheaval as well as the plagiarism, and that there are other documents and things posted here about the dark side of twi/vpw/pfal, but that he feels no need to know about anymore of the dark side. He never mentions the abuse, sexual or otherwise, so we don’t know if he is aware of it or not.
What about his post really sticks in people’s craw? (1) His approach of sticking to the word, holding it forth in love, and not dwelling on the past nor in darkness, but dwelling in the present and living in the light is seen to be too simple, narrow, and focused. (2) His insistence that posters here are wasting their time by exposing the darkness and seemingly dwelling on it and seemingly not moving forward. (3) His ignorance of the purpose of GSC. (4) He is apparently unaware of how vpw twisted scriptures, beginning in PFAL, to justify an ungodly lifestyle, and how the example he set was modeled by so many in leadership (5) He is apparently unaware of the depth and breadth and severity of the spiritual, emotional, physical, and sexual abuse suffered by multitudes of people (not multitudes I each category, but multitudes encompassing all the categories). (6) His lack of desire to look into it, and thereby be able to understand the mission of GSC and why the stories should be told, and the healing that results from working through the darkness and coming to a new light. If he knew, wouldn’t it open his eyes to the point that he could see how the simplicity of his solution would not work for many? Would it not open his eyes to a bigger picture - the contamination of the leaders and how their deceitful handling of the scriptures tainted what they taught and misguided others into spreading the same polluted doctrines and practices while erroneously believing they were the truth and in alignment and harmony with the scriptures? And because so many here feel passionately that those stories must be told, it is brought to his attention in very descriptive terms.
Skyrider first brings it up later on that page in his post #86.
Rascal adds to it in her post # 88 withIn post #93, Skyrider points out that love is just not dwelling in the light, but must also include
In post #97, Tbone expands on this idea
After reading all the persuasive arguments, Deciderator stays with his passion, and gives us a further reason why he does not care to delve into the darkness in his post #101 on Page 6.
If he can’t hear both sides of the story, he doesn’t care to hear only one side. That I can understand (and can accept that some cannot). He fails to realize, however, that people are not holding it in, they are letting it out so that healing can take place and they can move forward. And that the old song “I Love to tell the Story” of the good news of the gospel has a similar application in here,
“I love to tell the story, because I know ’tis true,
It answers (substituted for satisfies) my questions (substituted for longings) as nothing else would do. . .
I love to tell the story, it did so much for me; And that is just the reason I tell it now to thee. . . .
I love to tell the story, for some have never heard The message of deliverance (substituted for salvation) . . .”
He restates his belief that we must forgive, even extreme acts. But as he may not understand the severity of the acts committed by some in twi, he may not realize his example does not strike the punch he thought it would.
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Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread? (SECTION 2 OF 5 OF THIS POST)
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55)
The Need for Empathy in Reading Posts
Rascal brings the severity to his attention with her comment in post #102
But we need to remain mindful, that the stories are one-sided, and that he probably is not aware of the numerous similar stories that give weight to each other and lend credence to that one-side. Just a reminder, not a statement of qualification. And Wordwolf, in post #103, restates it well and puts it in question form for his honest consideration.Again, I point out, Deciderator is not covering up, just choosing not to uncover. WordWolf again points out that using light to expose darkness is very beneficial, and that is why it will always be done here at GSC.
WordWolf again points out the fallacy of the narrowness of “move on” philosophy proposed by Deciderator. WordWolf also expands on the severity of actions taken by vpw and lcm withThe attempts to persuade Deciderator have continued for 2 pages. Jonny Lingo seems to be getting tired of it, and wants to redirect the thread back to the original topic with his post #104.
In his post #107, Deciderator does not say he agrees or disagrees with what Wordwolf had posted, only “Wordwolf, what I said I meant.” So we have no further information from him concerning his knowledge of the amount or severity of the different kinds of abuse people suffered while affiliated with twi. We do not know if he is aware of the sexual abuse or those that committed suicide. He reiterates he does not have hero worship for vpw but describes his respect of him as
To me that speaks of the due respect I described in my previous post. He goes on to describe his heroes, noting that they, too, had erred (due to being deceived or mistaken is implied by the use of the word falliable), but did not elaborate on those errors (and does not need to do so as they are not germane to this thread, imo), but indicates they were distasteful and/or disturbing to him.The next 3 posts seem to take on the flavor of accusations versus imploring and persuasion. Oldiesman then posts his support for Deciderator, noting that he seems to be type person vpw wanted to reach, one who would become a student of the Bible. Jonny Lingo posts next with additional support for Deciderator’s points of view. A battle seems to be raging now, with platoons being formed. Those opposed to Deciderator’s pov outnumber those in agreement with it. People seem to be getting weary of rehashing the same information, and few (sometimes, no) new arguments appear to be coming to the table. Deciderator’s post #120 address some the accusatory remarks. He seems to be wearing thin on patience, also. (In a later post he notes that he feels some owe him an apology.) He brings up that actions of the severity Rascal has described should have been addressed through the criminal justice system, and since they have not, he will accord those accused the presumption of innocence. (The fact that he has been falsely accused in a court of law seems to weigh heavily on his stance. This fact is stated in his post #135 on page 7).
In post #122 on Page 7, Mr. Hammeroni points out that in the case of lcm, the sexual abuse did go to a court of law, although it was settled out of court rather than by a jury.
In post #124, Mr. Hammeroni states the scripture basis erroneously used to by twi leadership to justify their sexual abuseThe tenor of the thread is starting to reach a new level. Shots fired in the air were ineffective, as were shots fired around posters. Now the machine guns are coming out. Posters have gone to their trenches, dug in and refuse to budge off their causes. Post #127 by Rascal is a beauty.
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rascal
Nicely done Suda.
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Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread? (SECTION 3 OF 5 OF THIS POST)
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55)
The Need for Empathy in Reading Post
Oldiesman’s frustrations are growing, as evidenced by his comment to Pond that she can unchain herself from her computer is she doesn’t like reading what Deciderator has to say, and then pointedly asking Rascal
What does this post indicate to me? Number one, OM is tired of the “bickering”. Rascal has made her point. When is enough, enough? (Actually a very good question.) But as was pointed out to me recently (and I am thankful I got it), she is not upset because she “can't you tolerate some posts about what some posters learned in PFAL”. She can’t tolerate people saying the other side should not be exposed, leave it in the past, move forward, because she feels passionately for many, that simply can’t be done without first facing the horrors and coming to grips with them. Once they have their minds around the where, when, how, who, then they can understand where they as individuals lost their on following God, and followed the leader, instead. When they have learned from their mistakes, they can determine how not to repeat them in the future. In the processing of doing the above, they have released their confusion and anger, and can come to some degree of forgiveness for themselves, first, and then others. At that point healing is taking place, and they can then move on. For some of us, the exercise only needs to be completed (maybe once?) or a few times. For others, the layers of the onion have to be peeled back one at a time, and it has to be repeated over and over again until all the hurt is faced, understood, and forgiven, and that onion disappears. For some it might be accomplished in a hours, for others it can take years. Time is not the important issue here, healing is.And number 2, does Oldiesman believe such actions are possible? That they may have happened? That they did happen? Does he even need or want to know? Or does he dismiss them completely? I don’t know.
Now Rascal lobs a grenade into that trench to see if she can move Deciderator.
Maybe, though, instead of lobbing the grenade, it was time to call a cease-fire, and allow Deciderator to move forward at his own pace. Just throwing that out for thought.Oldiesman and Deciderator try to change the subject back to the original subject of the thread, “A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL”. Then Rascal reminds them, that’s only the first half of the thread title. She’s responding to the “Do you still believe them?” half, and giving the “why” behind her “no” answer.
In post #135, Deciderator answers Rascal’s questions as to whether or not he will take the chance for the next step in spiritual growth and understanding.
His post tells me that he’s feeling people are trying to back him into a corner, or drag him there, either one. He would prefer them to move away and give him some breathing room. The harder the push at this point, the harder he’s going to dig his heels in. As long as he’s fighting for breathing room, he isn’t likely to devote time to reflection. My advice, drop it for now. If he stays active here, the subject will come up again. Between now and then, he’ll have some time for reflection if he chooses to pursue it on his own.The pleads continue. Listen to his answer. I added the bold and the numbers.
First of all, he does not deny them, says they may well be true. However, he told us previously that he requires more than one side of the story to be able to weigh the evidence, and determine his “verdict”. Here, explains more fully what he requires. And that information is not available here. Only portions of it, and he will not make a decision based on partial information. Period. End of story. He goes on to again tell us what he will consider.
In the next post, at the top of page 8, WordWolf does a good job of presenting information relating to this.Those teachings of vpw are verifiable, and are examples of how he mishandled scripture to at least some of us. Has Deciderator heard those teachings? If so, does he believe the scriptures were mishandled? I haven’t read far enough yet to know the answers to those questions, or if he answers them at all. However, what actions vpw took in private based upon those public teachings is not provable in the legal sense. They can be assumed, they can be corroborated by others, but legally speaking they can not be proven as vpw is dead. And Deciderator requires legal proof to go any further in his consideration of the accusations. So, at this point, we must accept that he does not deny they happened, in fact, believes they may well have happened. That’s as far as he is willing to go, and has explained why several times. We may not like his decision, but shouldn’t we accept his decision knowing that his requirements can not be met? Can we get blood out of a turnip?
The hammering continues by both sides. New information is introduced by Doojable in post #148, when she distinguishes between giving vpw credit, and giving God the credit working through many people associated with twi. She expounds on it later in post #153,
Giving God the glory is an excellent reminder. However, I’d say the camp is still divided according to previous posts, on whether or not posters believe God did or did not work through vpw. And again, it is a subjective matter, not an objective one that can be proven, even in a non-legal sense.Then Jonny Lingo brings up the example of David and Uriah, and the fact that David repented.
He is not the first in this thread to voice his opinion on whether or not VPW was a born-again Christian. But again, all the points raised here are subjective, and not objective. We’ll never know the answers to them, but these topics are hot buttons for many.In post #152, Waysider brings up a point that confuses me to a point.
I don’t see where people have made this correlation, that their good experiences = a good nature of the “formal” organization. In fact, I see the opposite. I don’t believe since page 5 of this thread Oldiesman has said anything of a negative nature about the organization of twi, but I think everyone else has pointed to “dark sides” of it. The point of contention seems to be when the change took place, or if it was always there.Rascal brings up a distinction between David being of the flesh and vpw having the “opportunity” to be born of God’s spirit. I say opportunity, as Rascal concludes her comments with the fact she does not believe that he was. Again, a subjective versus objective point. And I don’t know if it is germane to this discussion, or a noteworthy observation.
I want to point this exchange out, because I will refer to it later if I post a “Page 6" of my observations. In response to Rascal’s post of
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Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread? (SECTION 4 OF 5 OF THIS POST)
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55)
The Need for Empathy in Reading Post
Jonny replies
Some “cool headed” and light hearted remarks are exchanged. Things are calming down a bit. Excathedra has been following the thread. Since has been contributing short, concise thoughts occasionally since page 2. Now, on page 166 she comes further on board, and asks Jonny to clarify his perception of vpw.
Jonny answers her well soon thereafter.This is just conjecture on my part. But I think some may be “ticked off” that he describes the acts committed as heinous, but describes vpw as a really bad guy. “Heinous” carries with it strong emotions and extreme disapproval while “really bad guy” does not. It is a bit incongruent to my way of thinking to say a “really bad guy” committed “heinous” acts. A more consistent statement would be heinous acts are committed by heinous (or evil, monstrous, abhorrent, horrendous, odious, or villainous) people. However, I am not trying to put words into Jonny’s mouth, just to point out a striking dissimilarity. WordWolf notes this, too, when he says
Excathedra rejoins the thread in post #177. She quotes a portion of Jonny Lingo’s response to her along with the link to m’s story.
To me, it is significant where she ends the quote. What is she saying by doing so? I can’t say for sure, but I’ll venture a guess. People’s involvement with twi usually began with the PFAL class. The truth some learned in the class touched their hearts and healed their souls, and ignited a spiritual awakening unknown to them until that time. Thus, the class served as a catalyst for them to align themselves with twi and “go for broke” giving their all to learn more about God, how to worship and serve Him and his people. It changed their lives forever. And unfortunately for some, their involvement led to great personal devastation and decimation. Is Excathedra asking, was the good I gained from PFAL worth the cost I eventually paid? I’m not sure, but that’s my guess. And for each individual, that is an honest question to ask ourselves.I think her statement goes further. By extension, she is asking Jonny is the good he gained is worth the price paid by all? If there had never been a vpw nor a twi, would God have reached us by another means? And would that means have been sufficient? And if so, would that other means not have been preferable if it had allowed those who had their hearts shattered and souls stolen to be spared such personal torture? If that is what she is asking, I can understand how she got from the point a to point be. But is it a legitimate question? Is it logically inferable? Is it reasonable to ask if person a’s decision to take PFAL can make them responsible and accountable for the evil perpetrated against person b? Emotionally, I can see where the question would be asked. Logically, I don’t think it is a fair question, as person a’s action did not cause nor directly contribute to person b’s hurt. Only the violator is responsible for his or her actions. If Excathedra indeed was asking this question, I do not say this to scold or shame her, just to get us all to think about whether or not it is a pertinent question.
The link has been supplied for any who wish to pursue the information. Is it an invitation? a plea? a demand? Is it one for some, another for someone else? I don’t know.
Catcup follows immediately and copies the link, stating that she can verify m’s story as m ws her 6th Corps roomie. She puts into words what I had been pondering?
Rascal follows immediately with a taunt, a dare, for Deciderator.
Catcup comes immediately behind and double dares him.It would seem civility has been abandoned at this point. Rascal and Catcup may be thinking, “It’s now or never for Deciderator. Extreme times call for extreme measures.”
Page 10 begins with exwaycorps stating he can verify m’s story also, as "M" was his/her branch coordinator/WOW sister in State College,PA. '76-'77, and he/she has posted about that story previously. Rascal points out that 76-77 coincides with “the good old days” of twi1.
WhiteDove asks Catcup “what exactly is it that you can verify?” Those the words “what exactly” may come across as sarcastic or caustic, in his later posts you realize he wants/needs specific information (not to pry, but to determine if the word verify is being used loosely, or in the legal sense), thus the choice of words. Catcup’s answer is given immediately.
Deciderator does not accept the dare/double dare, but instead deflects them by stating something else he learned from PFAL and still believes. I think some received that as being a smart aleck remark. To me it said “I have said over and over and over again, until I am blue in the face, that I am not going to look at one-sided accusations and given valid reasons for my decision. I have tried to get the thread back “on track” to people discussing what (specific points) they learned in PFAL and do they still believe them (those specific points). Yet people keep disregarding my decision, and keep pushing me. This time I’m not going to take the bait and try to answer them again. It is obvious they will not respect nor accept my decision, so I will change the just change the subject, and do so with some levity. Perhaps that will cool things down and get us off the path we have been on for so long.”
But the tone of the responses remains antagonistic. He tries to change the subject again by going back two days in time to an exchange between Jonny and Doojable regarding a quote in her signature from "Anais Nin". Jonny had flagged his question as “Off Topic” and asked Dooj if this was the same author who had written erotic stories, some with older men and very young girls, little children, a subject he had found disturbing. Dooj has answered in the affirmative, but that even though she was aware of those stories, she had never read them, but other things by the author. She also noted that the she was surprised when she learned this quote she liked came from Anais Nin as it was not characteristic of the author. But Dooj liked it so she used it. Deciderator made an interesting comment, showing an apropos parallel, and, again ending it with a bit a jest.
Exie comes back in and asks Deciderator and Jonny if they have read m’s story yet. Rascal states she want to know, also, and further wonders Evidently she has taken offense at his choice to ignore their suggestion to read the story, just as he has taken offense at his statement that he will not look into one-sided accusations has been ignored. Further, she interprets his refusal to read m’s story as him not caring about lives destroyed. (I disagree with her assessment and think she may be reading attitudes into his post that are inaccurate.) Edited by SudaLink to comment
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Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread? (SECTION 5 OF 5 OF THIS POST)
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55)
The Need for Empathy in Reading Post
White Dove rejoins the conversation, and voices opinions similar to Deciderator on his unwillingness to accept one-sided stories as absolute truth. (Some punctuation added for clarity).
Again, WhiteDove is pointing out the difference between legal and layman definitions. As stated before, to some this is splitting hairs. To others it a huge, significant factor. Deciderator and WhiteDove fall in the latter school of thought. Note both have said one can believe and accept the accounts as truth, but they can not be proven as truth. Neither has denied the accounts. In fact, both have stated the stories could and may well represent the truth.I post about my concern of Catcup’s statements as discussed above asking if it is fair for all twi’ers to accept the responsibility for the abuse committed by leadership, or is that asking us to accept misplaced guilt for something we had no knowledge of nor control over.
Some may look at the posts in pages 5 - 10, and feel it would be appropriate to quote a famous line from Cool Hand Luke “What we got here is... failure to communicate.” I would disagree. Many enlightening insights were shared and were communicated effectively. When the tempers started to flare, however, there was more talking “at” each other than “to” each other for a while. I think we would all due well to heed the advice of sirguessalot in a recent podcast, to try to listen to each other with more empathy. To try and see what a person says through the poster’s eyes, try and understand where they are coming from. To try to identify what feelings, emotions, thoughts, and attitudes they are trying to express with their words. Our conclusions may be wrong, and if so, they can clarify them for us in a later post. But even if our conclusions are wrong, I think we’d come to a clearer understanding of the “big picture” they are trying to communicate. And the more effective we are as listeners, the better we become at communicating our intended thoughts, as well as receiving the intended thoughts of others. I’d also recommend we try to implement his suggestion of:
If you have not checked out his thread “possibly helpful touchstones for the art of being genuine friends, ...merely an example for the GSC to ponder and explore”, I’d highly recommend it.Suda
P. S.
Off topic, but Socks, back on page 3, in post #42, you used a term I’ve heard before, but don’t know what it means. Could you clarify it, please? I’m just curious what the “Way Nash” is/was.
Dooj, is it related to your post #954
Maybe it’s a trekkie thing, and I am woefully ignorant of Star Trek, Star Wars, etc., that entire genre
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WordWolf
"Nash"- slang shorthand for "national",
and in this case, referring specifically to TWI Headquarters,
the national (or international) headquarters.
Meaning, the physical locale there, as opposed to, say the WayCofE,
or the Way Family Ranch.
Just doing my part to help. :)
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doojable
WordWolf beat me to it....
I wanted to repeat this point in Suda's post:
There were so many good points in that paragraph that I decided to make them easier to spot.
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T-Bone
This post has been in my thoughts for awhile….I think it's insulting to true military heroes to put vpw in the same class as them. Sure, everyone has their faults…nobody is perfect. But we recognize acts of bravery and self-sacrifice as indicative of the real character of the person – a particular act merely revealing what they're made of and testifies of their allegiance to the objectives of their country. vpw was supposed to be a minister of God, fighting the good fight of faith, focused on the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Yet his DOMINANT BEHAVIOR PATTERNS, his battlefield tactics so to speak - line up more with the spiritual enemy he mentions in the opening of PFAL – whose objectives are to steal, kill and destroy. vpw should be classified as a spiritual traitor.
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rascal
benedict vic? vic benedict?
Spiritual traitor??? Great analogy
He betrayed us all.
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