We were discussing giving people enough information to make an informed decision on the last page...
A national political talk show host, when criticized for not giving "equal time" to those of opposing opinions, responds by saying "I am the equal time", in other words, the other guys have their say in their corner of the media, he'll have my say in his corner of the media.
I have a similar opinion of "both sides" of the TWI story.
TWI has the Way Magazine, Sunday Service tapes, classes and fellowships to get their point across. TWI doctrine lives on in some of the offshoots as well. They have a platform for deseminating their views. The anti-TWI view is not given equal time in any of their publications or classes. Why would I want to give both sides of the story, when the other side is perfecty capable of speaking up for itself?
I have noticed that a number of people automatically conflate mention of God's Word with PFAL as if they are Siamese twins or something.
Thanks Deciderator.
Here on GreaseSpot......the only one I saw who REALLY BELIEVED that PFAL = God's Word was a poster named Mike. Seemingly, he spent thousands of hours working pfal and wierwille's tapes....digging for hidden meanings and coded messages to better align his spiritual walk with God. Haven't seen him in awhile here at GS....but he is on a mission to recruit others to this work.
For me, I believe that the Scriptures are God's Word and Divine Guidance.....written by holy men who were moved by holy spirit within them. And yes, when the Scriptures are received and understood in the manner for which God intended.....then and there I have truth, a spiritual perspective of life and godliness.
As a child and going to church, I had held a high respect for The Holy Bible. Many passages and psalms became my favorites, while other sections of the Bible remained a mystery, hidden from view. As I grew older, I shelved many of these questions.......believing that my Heavenly Father would instruct me at the time of His choosing and guidance. Fast forward to pfal: with deep respect for the Scriptures, I felt very awkward to even write notes on the borders of these pages.
When simple verses were read in pfal......my heart could not contain its joy.
When certain sections were expounded in their context.......my eyes of understanding were enlightened.
As a teenager, I thought that I'd reached the summit of spiritual knowledge....and had keys to open doors.
A deep, burning quest to walk like Jesus Christ keep me moving and teaching and ministering to others in the valley of human suffering and need. Small portions and morsels of truth are more than many others have who are hungering and thirsting. And, I thank the Lord for opening doors before me to give and minister to so many.... many of whom never took pfal but were uplifted and encouraged by the Scriptures.
Deciderator......when you mentioned "God's Word with pfal as if they are Siamese twins or something" you noting what many here have stated as "bait and switch".....or in Galatians 3 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you that ye should not obey the truth..."
In many cases, fooling someone or bewitching someone happens OVER A PERIOD OF TIME. In my opinion, few people allow complete strangers to fool them, scam them, bewitch them. It's someone in whom we allow to get in close with us and in the process of living life........the deception takes place.
In hindsight, TO ME (notice I'm not trying to infer this on others).....pfal was like that. I allowed the simple verses and the knowledge to sway me towards wierwille's ministry. I was young and naive and rebellious and wierwille, seemingly, had answers to my spiritual questions. I jumped on-board for a wild and fast ride. BUT AROUND 1995......I saw how pfal's absent-Christ doctrine ALSO shifted emphasis away from the Lordship of Jesus Christ in my life.
So.....no, I would NOT call God's Word and pfal as "Siamese twins." In fact, this thread and other "pfal threads" illustrate the MAJOR DIVERGING PATHS that each one takes.
Here's another cliche by wierwille..........."The Word is the ministry and the ministry is The Word."
As you have undoubtably noticed this is a touchy point here on GS. Especially in this particular Forum. For many it is difficult if not impossible to seperate The Word/Bible from PFAL and PFAL from VPW. I am not certain why but I do have a theory. As a child I was in a very serious accident while my family and I were traveling back home to Nevada from Michigan. The accident took place in Lincoln Nebraska. For me as a child it was extremely traumatic. The strange thing about this "trauma" incident. It left on my psyche the imprint that Nebraska (the whole state) is evil. Cars arent evil, people arent evil ...nothing else was to blame...it was Nebraska. To this day I avoid that state as much as possible. I think that something similar to this occured to many people concerning the Bible/PFAL/VPW. I know that my hatred of Nebraska is ridiculous...but you are not going to convince me to go there anytime soon. How much more adament will an argument be raised when it comes to The Bible?
I think that you would enjoy the Doctrinal forum. We dont usually get to Wayish in there. We like to go outside the box quite a bit and "amok" sometimes and we learn a lot about the Word and each other.
To make a very long story short...I was chastised for not using the books specifically sanctioned by twi to conduct a simple word study. I used an...dare I say it?...an online referance guild/concordance/lexicon. Its an amazing tool! But it's "online". Ridiculous!
Mostly I just read the Bible and contemplate. But in the instance above I was working on a more "detailed" and analytical type of project.
I admit that I generally enjoy reading your posts. At first you were a bit rough. It appeared that you came into a room where you knew nobody with guns blazing and looking for a fight. But as time wore on you have calmed down considerably. I do understand the desire to be heard and respected. But here at the Spot respect is given and earned rather slowly, and you are beginning to gain some.
When I decided to answer your question is when I felt that it was asked with a true desire to hear and listen to the answers given, hence out of a desire to understand. Your honest response to my answer and other's answers has proven it out that you truly did wish to engage in dialog and perhaps understand us. I think that we will get along just fine. We may not always agree but we can still discuss things and be civil with one another.
Great quotes by Larry N. Moore and Doojable, respectively.
One of things VP said in PFAL was: "Ephesians advises in chapter 6, "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord . . ." It does not tell us to be strong in what a theologian may say or in what a Bible teacher may say. If the theologian says what The Word says, if the teacher says what The Word says, then you have to be strong in what they say because of The Word, not because of the men." When he said this I took it to mean that we weren't to be "strong" even in what he said unless what he said was an accurate interpretation.
VPW said himself that the class would one day need to be re-taught. I assumed his thinking was that as the culture changed, the class would also have to change. I also thought he implied that the class was the best that he knew at that time and as more of the Word was understood, the errors would need to be corrected.
From the beginning of my association with twi I took statements such as those (heard many similar things from other believers before taking the class) to heart. That as a Research ministry, twi was dynamic, not static. I always felt encouraged to bring up questions when my study or gut feel, even, contradicted what twi was teaching. The great majority of the time, the questions were encouraged and there was no “VP says it, that settles it” attitude, but rather, “if that what your heart tells you to believe, then stick with it.” When I did run into VP=Truth, I would remind them that it contradicted what he, himself, had said.
Too bad twi didn't stick to this. It was the core reason for the downfall, imo.
Just thought those quotes were worth repeating.
Suda
I don't know if they ever really had that attitude Suda, let alone stuck with it.
True, Wierwille said that we shouldn't follow men, and that we shouldn't take his or anyone else's word for it, but when you come down to it, isn't that what he expected us to do?
Despite the large number of bible verses that are read straight from the KJV, how many things did we accept just because he said so? When he said this means such-and-such, or defined Greek or Hebrew wordss in such a way that his view was backed up, or camed to conclusions that had no visible means of support? Sure, there were people who would tell you things like “if that what your heart tells you to believe, then stick with it.” - but were you ever allowed to teach those things? Yeah, I had the occassional person tell me stuff like that, but the more common response was to "hold it in abeyance" until I saw what Wierwille's point was; someday I'd "get it".
True, Wierwille said that we shouldn't follow men, and that we shouldn't take his or anyone else's word for it, but when you come down to it, isn't that what he expected us to do?
and EYES said:
For many it is difficult if not impossible to seperate The Word/Bible from PFAL and PFAL from VPW. I am not certain why
I can tell you why it was for me.
1. There was a ton of repitition, so when you read the Bible you tended to "see" what you had heard over and over again, instead of seeing anything else.
2. By 4 years or so into my time with TWI we were all to be "tapped into the root" and we were to "obey leadership" If you didn't obey leadership you were off the word, sinning, outside god's hedge of protection. You weren't really allowed to question what was taught, lest you get a face melting.
3. We were taught if we didn't understand something we were to "hold it in abeyance" until the understanding came. But we were expected to act on what we didn't understand while we were holding it in abeyance. The result was bascially that you were to practice it regardless of what you believed.
4. Often times when I saw something in the Bible that contradicted what TWI taught, I assumed it was an "error in my understanding" not an error in their teaching.
Tom Strange’s post # 573 hit a paradigm for me that I needed to work through.
I DID NOT WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE OR EVEN CONSIDER THAT SOMETHING I HAD GIVEN MY LIFE TO FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS COULD BE SO WRONG... BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN THAT I WAS WRONG FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS, THAT WOULD MEAN (in my mind) THAT I'D HAVE TO ADMIT THAT 'I WAS DUPED'...
And I certainly didn't want to admit that... not me.
Instead of just having a head knowledge that many here feel this way, I’m finally beginning to see it with my heart, and, man, does that help. I know it’s been written out there, and I’ve read it, but finally I am seeing it. In untangling the incongruence between the Public and Private personas of VPW, I had to let go of the “Father in the Word” image of him because the heinous acts he perpetrated against some in his flock. I did that not soon after arriving at GSC. Yet I can still accord him due respect for the positive impact he had on my life. Yes, I realize it was God who is responsible, and I give him the glory. I give due respect only to those areas in VPW’s life where he did manifest the Christ in Him, and the gems of truth he taught in PFAL and via other teachings and publications, that were inspired of GOD. In these instances of his representation of the truth as inspired by God and teaching it, he presented the liberating information of the Bible to me and thousands of others. This, and only this, I give him due respect for. According him due respect in these areas only is, to me, giving God the glory, by recognizing God’s hand in these areas. Despite the evil nature of other areas in vpw’s life, God was able to use his teaching skills to reach me, and it is for the truth of the Word he taught that I am thankful for, not him personally. And I do believe that God was working in him “to will and to do of His good pleasure”.
I do not deny that he may have stolen it from B. G. Leonard and others (I say may, because I have not researched it on my own, but will shortly. My gut certainly tells me it is true, and I do not doubt those that have told me here and elsewhere. But kinda like White Dove and Deciderator, it won’t fully meld in my mind and reach my heart until I taste the pudding for myself. That is why, to me, the honest word to use here is may. Very soon I will probably change that to “he did steal”, but until then, it’s may.)
And at the same time I accord VPW due respect, I have uttermost contempt for him for peddling his private agendas to me disguised behind contorted use of scripture that were also presented in PFAL (and other teachings and publications as well). And I believe it was God working within ME “to will and to do of His good pleasure” that I never latched on to a lot of those perverted teachings. I did not escape all, but, thank God, I escaped most. Just as God directed VPW’s steps in some areas of his life, the devil guided his steps in many others. The devil is the true author of the lies vpw taught us, and the master planner of how it blended in so subliminally with the truth. Do I hold the devil responsible, and give vpw a pass because he was tricked?. Hell no! I don’t think vpw was tricked in many of the evils he propounded, rather that vpw understood the wrong decisions he made. But he chose to magnify his own ego over God, and adopted the devilish doctrines and spread them as fervently as he spread the good news of the gospel. I believe it was an error of heart of vpw’s part, not an error or judgement. I can give people a pass on faulty judgement. But not on errors of heart, as I believe they made them consciously and willfully with full understanding he was choosing evil over good.
In the Bible we read of accounts where “good” people (can’t say Christian because was in the gospels) were possessed of devil spirits and that they were delivered from them. Until now, my mind saw those people as “totally marred or oozing from possession”, i.e., if I ran into them on the street, for safety sake I would feel compelled to cross the street and get away from them immediately. But in truth, many of those who were “possessed” were only partially stricken. They had mostly sane moments, many people would probably be unaware a problem existed if they just saw them walking down the street or had casual dealings with them. If they got to know them, they may say, “Overall he is a pretty good Joe, but if you hit on a sore subject with him, watch out, he goes totally berserk!” And those “sore subjects” would be the “devil spirit possession”. Just as all people have faults to some degree or another, and most faults are just that, faults. However, some people who have a lot (or less) good in them can have faults to the extreme of devil possession. And that person can manifest both the goodness of God in their lives if they are born again, as well as the evil of the devil if they are possessed. Same person. And that person can seek deliverance from God of the spirit possession, or they can so assimilate the evil into their lives and hearts that they want no deliverance in those areas of their lives.
That may come about because - and this is totally conjecture on my part - if someone had been overly lustful since puberty, and saw that as virility or some such thing, they may see that as a good thing, not a bad thing, and thus not want to change. And as they continue in that manner, it grows increasingly worse - from hanging out with “women who will” to trying to persuade and manipulate “women who won’t”, to forcing women “to do”. At some point, this human lust becomes spiritual lust because “the door was wide open and the devil made himself at home”. So then they become totally selfish about that lust and find reasons to justify and rationalize their behavior and figure “If I can accomplish it by any means possible, doesn’t bother me, too bad for them. If I want it, I can take it, and dam* the consequences to that person if they can’t handle it.”
And if they have this possesion and/or attitude in one area of their lives, it will creep over into other their other character weaknesses to some degree or another. They may become possessed in other areas, also, and feel no need for deliverance because their mind is seared in those parts. But other parts of their minds are not seared, and God can work with those parts. So it is quite possible that VPW was born of God’s spirit and at the same time was possessed of devil spirits. Thus, we have the description of some of his victims of “cold, dead eyes” while under the possession of the devil and the “dynamic, alive eyes” when he was teaching the Bible while manifesting the love of God. Son of the Master’s post # 562
The rapes by VPW were no less than an attack by a man with devils of lust designed to steal, kill and destroy their lives thus aborting their ministerial calling not to mention their joy and happiness. Rape, what a selfish act. It is a violation of free will.
The violation of free will is giving up your choice to choose to do what you know is the right thing to do, dismissing it completely due to your own ego, and letting spiritual lust control your action.
And because publically, VPW manifested Godliness, (which we were encouraged to elevate to the point we put him on the pedestal as MOGFOD&T or "Father in the Word" or "modern day Moses", etc.) the idea of simultaneous possession never entered my mind until today. If I detected weaknesses, they were chalked up to being character flaws like everyone has to some degree or another. But when you see the unconscionable acts he perpetrated, there is no room for God in those acts. They were totally evil and therefore could only emanate from the god of this world, the devil. And that was the how the devil was able to infiltrate the twi “organization” because people could not or did not separate the Godly parts of VPW from the devilish parts, but viewed him as a whole, sound, Godly person. Nor were we able to clearly distinguish the devilish doctrines. We could distinguish them from the Godly ones however, because the devilish ones caused us confusion, trouble in understanding, hit our gut or hearts wrong, etc. It was difficult for those of us not already grounded in the Bible to distinguish between the proper use of scripture and the twisted scripture to support the devilishness.
Moreover, vpw was very effective at hiding his private persona, and only displaying it to those he chose. And he also chose the degree to which he showed his real colors. Most only got quick glimpses, which they chalked up to “usual human flaws”. And, for some, when they got over the shock, and dismissed the quick glimpses, he’d show more and more, twisting scripture to justify or rationalize it. Some had the wisdom to see through his smoke screen and confront him on it. And when they did, he berated them and tried to manipulate them into accepting his reality. When they would not, he would destroy their reputations and credibility to the point they were ostracized. And that robbed the rest of us of the “wise counselors” to whom we could take our questions and concerns. According him due respect to me is giving God the glory, that despite the nature of the man, God was able to use his teaching skills to reach me, for it is the truth of the Word he taught that I am thankful for, not him personally. And I do believe that God was working in him “to will and to do of His good pleasure” much of the time when he was in his public persona. But the devil was right there too, giving him the ability to wear his sheep’s clothes to cover the wolverine facets of his being.
And where was God in all this? He was always right there, in the Christ in each of us. He was the one talking, and sometimes yelling, to our conscience, saying “Warning!” “Stay Away” “This isn't right - go with your gut, your heart, don’t be tricked” “when in doubt, DON’T” “NO, NO, NO!” And just as furiously as He was fighting for us, the devil was fighting against us. He had permeated the twi organization, oozed into every nook and cranny, and was waiting for each and every opportunity to pounce on us, little and medium and great. He destroyed (via vpw and his henchmen) our wise counselors, he kept propounding his false doctrine and drilling it into our head, he manipulated us into “follow leadership at all costs - even if you make the wrong decision, God will honor it because you are following your leadership”. He STOLE our freedom of will when we were unable to battle through the darkness and confusion. God was doing his best, but his people were “dazed and confused” and overpowered by the devil’s men “who knew all the answers” and scolded and berated you if you were unable to see it. God was always there, fighting for us, trying to reach us, but we allowed ourselves to be tricked, thus allowing ourselves in those battles to be beaten by the principalities and powers of of darkness. Yes, we lost those battles, but WE DID NOT LOSE THE WAR. It still rages, minute by minute, but as we follow God, and intreat Jesus Christ as our personal savior, we win the battles. And Jesus Christ has already won the war for us. Lean unto Them, and we will win the daily battles, also.
So does that mean we that were tricked are to blame? Perhaps partially. We made errors in judgement, which usually could account for no more than 20%. But the 80% or greater responsibility, the principal and dominating responsibility, was due to the devil, and those who made errors of heart and adopted the devilish doctrines as their truth, and mercilessly hammered us with them until we accepted them or left the organization. So our responsibility is contributory, their’s is the prime and principal reason and cause.
So if we are not to blame ourselves, what are we to do? We are to realize and understand that we battled against the powers of darkness and lost because we failed to heed the warnings of God, and therefore walked outside His protection. Accept the wrong decision, and FORGIVE ourselves first. Then feel the anger and rage and let it all out. Go to God and our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ for comfort, guidance, and direction so that we can begin the healing process. We come to understand the where, when, how, who of being tricked, and learn how to avoid that in the future. We forgive others to the best of our ability when we are capable. It may require a little here and a little there, until it can be accomplished. We let go of the confusion and bitterness and hurt. And in that healing process, we go as quickly as we can, and as slowly as we must. We don’t skip steps and bury things. We deal with it all, no matter how long it takes, then claim in victory in Christ Jesus and then move on.
T-Bone has a great post #517.
Actually, a choice is made by each of us at some point early on in our TWI involvement – we choose to trust the teacher and contents of PFAL. Thereafter, our choices are based on assuming all that is reliable, trustworthy, of God – and any choice other than one that honors the teacher or PFAL is wrong! That is the fine art of deception! That is the power of manipulation! Obviously, those who still have PFAL/vpw poison in their heads are not going to see through the TWI mind games...I do not fault any of the women molested by Pervertwille - I fault the little kingdom started by PFAL/vpw.
Find your shoes in there, step in them, wear them until you understand where and how the blisters are coming from, then make the neccessary corrections. Then throw those damned shoes away and put on a pair that fits.
Now that is just my take on it at this time. Others came to different conclusions which are as valid for them as mine are to me. Not saying I’m right and they’re wrong, or vice versa. Just that we differ. For some the progression may have followed more closely to this line of reasoning. If I accept that VPW committed unconscionable acts, they are evil and devilish and therefore he could not be born again of God’s spirit. And if he was not born again of God’s spirit, then teaching the Bible was just a vocation to him, like selling Fuller brushes is to others. And why would he choose that as the product to sell? So that he could set up an organization that would (1) provide a high standard of living, (2) provide the adulation and ego stroking he wanted, (3) as owner he would be “boss” and would allow no “bucking the boss” and thus have total control, power, and authority, and (4) provide a steady stream of nubile young creatures to use for his pleasure.
Thus, he went out and shopped around for a product to steal. He found it in B. G. Leonard’s class, and along the way picked up other people’s ideas. He then incorporated all of it into his product and called it PFAL. That product was his bait. And he was mighty good at fishing with it, and over time finally succeeded in getting a full net of “fishes” for himself. Once he got them hooked on his public persona, he could little by little expose the private persona, and since he was the boss, they either accepted it or he “fired” them. And the “groupie” fish who had similar desires for power, he could mold into his henchmen to protect his private persona from those he did not wish to expose it to. And he would get them in on all the evil acts, so that if they ever “saw the truth”, they would have to sacrifice themselves in order to expose him, and most would be unwilling to do that.
Many of the fishies would never see his “true” self, because he needed them ignorant in order to tempt others with his bait. And the more people who sold his bait, the more fishies he had to keep ignorant and supply him with the dough to support his lifestyle. They are happy in their ignorant bliss, he is happy as their boss. And life goes on. And the farce goes on. And everybody is happy. And if they accept this scenario, that they were ignorant fish attracting more and more fish into their school to support his lifestyle in the farce, then they have to accept that they were duped. And thus he was evil from the beginning, and just got worse as his “school of fish” grew which afforded him more power and authority over more people.
The bottom line of this scenario is summarized in WordWolf’s post #606 (whether or not it is his opinion, I do not know, as he does not state his opinion, but is asking Oldiesman a question).
Do you think that the sole opinion of all aspects of twi should be reflected by the sex crimes of its founder?
And I can understand that line of reasoning. But to the question above posed by WordWolf, I would have to answer no, because I see a huge flaw in it I can’t accept. And that is that I know personally, in my heart of hearts, that it was GOD that reached me through VPW. And the great majority of people I was surrounded by in twi had also been touched by GOD through their affiliation. So to me, I believe he was born again, and that God did work through him, but that he also was greatly influenced by the devil. I believe he started out hungering and thirsting for the knowledge of God and found it and ministered it to people. But along the way, the gave over his free-will control of areas of his life to the devil, and let him control them. And disaster resulted for him personally, destroyed his organization, and hurt many in varying degrees in the process.
ExWayCorps, in post #918 alludes to this
I'm no apologist (read my posts if you like,or not) pfal got me born again. I don't believe THAT was a scam or that I got duped (by that). That, to me, IS something of real, lasting value. Not mearly "bait". . . . I believe that twi went to hell in a handbasket.)
EyesOpen makes a good point related to this in post #622
It is true that VP did not walk the talk.
In totality, this is true. But many (only or primarily) saw the areas in his life where he did walk the talk - his public persona - which was just as real as his private persona. And this issued in good for people in their lives. But in those areas where he did not walk the talk, that’s where the destruction of lives took place and people experienced treatment inspired and executed by the devil himself.
And the “old timers” that remain in the shell of his former organization are there because, as stated by Tom Strange
They didn't like that it had happened but they didn't deny it. They rationalized their 'staying in' with "we're all human and we all make mistakes, just look at the Catholic Church" type of responses when I'd ask them "how can you still be involved in TWI?"
Their position was (and is) that they're remaining loyal to 'the ministry that taught them the Word' and that they were going to try to continue to do the best they can.
That's their choice. I don't understand it, or see any logic in it, but that's their choice..
As Dot Matrix stated in post #484, they have failed to make an important distinction.
But there comes a time to realize the class and VPW are not synonymous
and in #748
This delivers many people to understand how a great class could be taught by such a bad man.
As we see clearly now, our loyalty is to God and his Son, Christ Jesus, only. We get tricked when we let anyone else, anything else, or any organization take Their place in our hearts, minds, and lives.
The good we gained from our affiliation with twi was good because it was of God, and the evil we suffered was deplorable and unconscionable because it was of the devil. And VPW emanated both. Both God and the devil were alive and thriving in vpw and twi. And just as the good deeds we do for God resound from generation to generation, so does the evil one does for the devil. Both impacts are mighty and life altering. And on Judgment Day we will receive our just reward for the good we have done as well as be held accountable for the evil we have done. Today we reap the benefits of God’s mercy and his grace. I doubt that will be the case on Judgment Day.
At the Bema each person will receive rewards for the good we have done. But we will also have to face any evils we perpetrated, and will be held responsible and accountable for those. And for those who consciously committed evil, that will scorch and sear them for eternity, imo. Their rewards will not be withheld nor negated, but it will severely handicap their spiritual utilization of them throughout eternity. So at the “final Rock of Ages” in the air for eternity, I visualize vpw and his henchmen being on eternal “honeywagon” duty, dwelling in the cesspool by day, and sleeping in the rain drenched tent city by night. The rest of us will be in the Big Top, in the audience, enjoying God on the platform, even helping and assisting Him up there. And we will retire at night, protected from the rain, thunder, and lightening, and rest peacefully in the RV camp.
Rascal, you have given me a great topic for a personal word study - inheritance - in Galatians 5.
"I am simply going by Galations chapter 5 that states that those who have done what vpw are of the flesh and shall have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God."
(The parameters here will not allow any further quotes to stand out in quote marks. Therefore, I am putting them in quotes and centering them. Sorry!)
In post #712, Larry N Moore states,
"I think Gamaliel said it best when he said: ". . . for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."
I heard VPW speak words similar to this on several occasions. And we see how true it is in retrospect. The part of his ministry that was founded on men, based on devilish doctrines, justified and rationalized by twisted the scripture, that is, the organization of twi, has come to nought. But that which was of God, which led to the new birth or ignition of revival in the heart and lives of each of God’s precious children, you and me, still lives and abides in us, and will continue as long we choose to follow God. For it is “Christ IN You, the Hope of Glory!”
Suda (with humility and thankfulness for all who contributed to this thread and helped me make this paradigm shift)
P. S. I realize this post will anger and hurt some posters and many lurkers. Please know that I would not have posted it if I did not feel compelled to do so.
Awesome post, Suda! Your summary was wonderful, but in the paragraph below you have described what I believed happened but couldn't find the words to express:
Do I hold the devil responsible, and give vpw a pass because he was tricked?. Hell no! I don't think vpw was tricked in many of the evils he propounded, rather that vpw understood the wrong decisions he made. But he chose to magnify his own ego over God, and adopted them the devilish doctrines and spread them as fervently as he spread the good news of the gospel. I believe it was an error of heart of vpw's part, not an error or judgement. I can give people a pass on faulty judgement. But not on errors of heart, as I believe they made them consciously and willfully with full understanding he was choosing evil over good.
Thank you for taking the time to work through this and share your musings with us.
Thank you for your post. It had to have taken quite a while to key in!!
I was where you were when I first came to waydale and then GS. I quickly changed my thinking and abhorred the things that happened so many years ago to so many ... and then more recently with lcm.
I respect you for taking your time to digest all that you read. I have seen some gradual changes these past several months.
I do wish that we had met before hubby and I left Memphis, but I had just been on gs for a while and we were so busy. Some time, though, when we go back to visit Memphis, I would love to meet you and Sudo at Salsa's in Germantown. I do miss that place!!!
Tom Strange’s post # 573 hit a paradigm for me that I needed to work through. Instead of just having a head knowledge that many here feel this way, I’m finally beginning to see it with my heart, and, man, does that help. I know it’s been written out there, and I’ve read it, but finally I am seeing it. In untangling the incongruence between the Public and Private personas of VPW, I had to let go of the “Father in the Word” image of him because the heinous acts he perpetrated against some in his flock.
(much deleted)
Suda (with humility and thankfulness for all who contributed to this thread and helped me make this paradigm shift)
Suda, Awesome post! Thanks so much for taking the time to share your thought processes with us. It just confirms again to me that some of the greatest people (like you) were in TWI. I'm proud to be at the cafe with you.
Do I hold the devil responsible, and give vpw a pass because he was tricked?
He was ordained clergy. He had made a committment before God to serve Him and His people. He had a salt covenant with God and with us. He turned his back on that. As he said somewhere (it may have been at lcm's ordination) about men who do such things, "God have mercy on their souls. They are going to need it!" It really puts new meaning to his grave marker, imo; I think he realized to some degree how horridly he had failed and why, and regretted it.
Perhaps it was God's mercy for him, and his grace for many (and most unfortunately, not all) of us, that kept that Private Persona largely hidden from view.
I've mentioned this many times to people, but never understood it until now. At lcm's ordination, when vpw passed the mantle to him, and placed it around his shoulders, I felt a most heavy, crashing thud in my heart. Not a rejoicing but more like a death knell. And it confused me. The ordination ceremony had no joy for me. The fellowship before and after was wonderful, but the ceremony it self lacked life and vitality. It was primarily pomp and ceremony. Some of the teachings were good, but even they lacked the dynamic force I was accustomed to hearing at HQ.
I think it was because when vpw passed that mantle, it was the final death knoll for twi as some of us had known it. lcm had many more "bats in his belfrey" than vpw. His "ministy" began with an egocentric, self aggrandizing, spectacle, "The Athletes of the Spirt". That was the first thing I never felt any desire to buy or have anything to do with. It was a "good Hollywood production" but nothing else. There were little pieces of good, but overall it was a failure in a spiritual sense. It probably had great potential, but lcm had to be the star, so I'm sure he quashed what was good.
Once he took the reins, the organization spiraled downward quickly. That's when the exodus began, and the mass exodus ended with "the loyalty oath." lcm never had the spiritual "glue" to even keep up a pretext of Godliness, as VPW had.
Chas's thread about "What is was then" or something along that lines comes to mind. Yeah, the early days were grand. But why? In addition to stealing a class, vpw hijacked the ministries of great spiritual men at that time. God was alive and vital in many people. So it was not only vpw, but the ministries of those great men, that drew us to twi. It had the potential for "setting the world on fire", but vpw invited the devil in, let him permeate it, steal, kill, and destroy anyone he could, so it turned from greatness and light and became darker and darker until the light faded away completely with lcm. God must have wept sorely that the devil was able to hijack a true (at least one of the true) revival for our generation.
It makes it easier for me to understand now how people could come out of twi and chuck the whole thing. It rips my heart out when people equate my dear God to Santa Claus, and the Bible to fairy tales and fables. Nothing could cause me greater hurt or pain, not even the death of my beloved parents comes close, and that was devastating to say the least. If they were born again, the devil has been able to steal from them and kill them spiritually now, but they are not destoyed, for the God in Christ in them lays dormant in them, just waiting to be revitalized. It is my prayer for them that occurs sooner rather than later. I sometimes wonder if it is pride that was their downfall. Tom Strange's post comes to mind again
THAT I'D HAVE TO ADMIT THAT 'I WAS DUPED'... And I certainly didn't want to admit that... not me.
Please note that I am snipping only a part of his quote, and do not ascribe such pride to Tom Strange personally. I don't know what his innermost feelings are, nor do I need to.
But that is just my viewpoint. Many seem okay with making that choice, and they are certainly free to do so. Just standing in my shoes, I can see how it may happen, but couldn't imagine myself ever making that decision. So my desires for them are selfish. I can't imagine life without God, and wish that for everyone. To me, to be without God is to be without hope in this world. But I can accept some not feel as I do, and I will accept their choices. I think it will always make me sad, but I can accept it and move on.
Suda
P. S. And as for lots of VPW's later teaching - he had an expert research staff at his disposal as well as talented Corps writing research papers, often on designated topics if I understand correctly. And "if you work for Proctor and Gamble, your research belongs to Proctor and Gamble" not you, the individual. Those above you are entitled to take it and use it, and if they have no ethics, will not give you any of the credit. Much of the research - when done with the researcher and God, and not under devilish parameters established by vpw - was grand. And vpw incorporated it into his own teachings and publications and some of them were top notch, imo.
It makes it easier for me to understand now how people could come out of twi and chuck the whole thing. It rips my heart out when people equate my dear God to Santa Claus, and the Bible to fairy tales and fables.
I think I get what you are saying. PFAL of course taught that Santa Claus is not God, and that the Bible is not fairy tales and fables. And if someone had a horrendous experience in TWI, done in the name or pretense of following those principles, then they may throw those principles out, and you understand that. But iit "rips your heart out" because you believe, as I do, that God and Jesus and the Bible are real.
OK, so after contact with this fellows ministry people ended up chucking God. People whom were searching for God were decieved, families destryed, people died.
It still sounds like we are giving vpw way to much credit. Are these NOT the actions of a false prophet? Teach enough scripture to fool people and draw them away from God?
Are we supposed to give a false prophet credit for the good when the good was simply used to lure us into the bad??
Can false prophet be a little good and some bad?
I thought we were told to have nothing to do with guys like this. Probably not because they don` teach scripture...but because of the harm that they have the potential to cause...They don`t have the love of God inside of them as a moral compass.
I tend to agree with you, Rascal. I think the good that came out of TWI came because of God, not VPW. I believe God was able to work to heal people INSPITE of VPW and LCM, not BECAUSE of them.
I have the same opinion regarding PFAL. God worked inspite of them, not because of them. God worked because of US, not because of VPW or LCM. VPW and LCM used God's Word as a weapon against people and God turned that weapon around and used it to heal some.
Why some were more hurt than others, I cannot say for certain. I think some of it had to do with the closer you were to those of the ilk of VPW and LCM, the more likely you were to get burned.
So, while I can honestly say I was healed of certain things while in TWI, I would not give credit for that healing to anyone but God.
quote: So, while I can honestly say I was healed of certain things while in TWI, I would not give credit for that healing to anyone but God.
If that's true then we're all robots. Abigail, in your case it wasn't VP, but it was people, not God, who witnessed to you, agape'd you, taught you the word face to face, etc. Same old double standard: give God the credit, not VP, but give VP the blame, not the devil. Well, I think God is going to give people credit for what they do that is good.
quote: So, while I can honestly say I was healed of certain things while in TWI, I would not give credit for that healing to anyone but God.
If that's true then we're all robots. Abigail, in your case it wasn't VP, but it was people, not God, who witnessed to you, agape'd you, taught you the word face to face, etc. Same old double standard: give God the credit, not VP, but give VP the blame, not the devil. Well, I think God is going to give people credit for what they do that is good.
You know....this gets real old...
I sat through PFAL. If that was all there was, no twig, no ROA, no, Corps, etc., I would have kept on my merry way looking for more. The class was a C-L-A-S-S that's it.
It was the people that kept me there and kept teaching that made every gel. The class wasn't a miracle on tape.
Regardless, GOD does the healing. Yea, yea, I know... I can do the works... the Book of Acts says... Say it anyway you want, the bottom line is that God gets the glory for His work and not ANY MAN.
OR
We can play it your way:
God worked in people to bless me and heal me - everyonce in a while for a select few, God worked in VPW.
The Devil worked in VPW and other of his ilk when he chose to steal another man's work, drug and rape women, made up stories of possession to shut people up...
quote: So, while I can honestly say I was healed of certain things while in TWI, I would not give credit for that healing to anyone but God.
If that's true then we're all robots. Abigail, in your case it wasn't VP, but it was people, not God, who witnessed to you, agape'd you, taught you the word face to face, etc. Same old double standard: give God the credit, not VP, but give VP the blame, not the devil. Well, I think God is going to give people credit for what they do that is good.
No, Johniam (or Jean, whichever one of you wrote this). First, I am not a robot - I prayed to God and asked for His guidance and direction. I do believe he led me to a group of people who could and did help me tremendously. I also believe I blew it by not getting out when His still small voice told me to.
Yes, I believe some of the people played a role in my getting healed, but the ultimate credit goes to God. Yes, I am thankful for those people (VPW was dead and gone before I ever came to TWI, he does not get credit as one of those people. VPW used God's Word to hurt people and God took that weapon and turned it to good to help people, so again VPW does not get credit).
I don't believe in your devil Johniam. One of my big contentions with the teachings of TWI is how much power they give to the devil. At least by the time I left, it seemed that according to TWI the devil had far more power than God does. Shame on them!! They used the devil to instill fear instead of teaching God to instill peace!!!
I tend to agree with you, Rascal. I think the good that came out of TWI came because of God, not VPW. I believe God was able to work to heal people INSPITE of VPW and LCM, not BECAUSE of them.
I have the same opinion regarding PFAL. God worked inspite of them, not because of them. God worked because of US, not because of VPW or LCM. VPW and LCM used God's Word as a weapon against people and God turned that weapon around and used it to heal some.
Why some were more hurt than others, I cannot say for certain. I think some of it had to do with the closer you were to those of the ilk of VPW and LCM, the more likely you were to get burned.
So, while I can honestly say I was healed of certain things while in TWI, I would not give credit for that healing to anyone but God.
Johniam:
So, while I can honestly say I was healed of certain things while in TWI, I would not give credit for that healing to anyone but God.
If that's true then we're all robots. Abigail, in your case it wasn't VP, but it was people, not God, who witnessed to you, agape'd you, taught you the word face to face, etc. Same old double standard: give God the credit, not VP, but give VP the blame, not the devil. Well, I think God is going to give people credit for what they do that is good.
If you understand my posts, you will see that I agree with Rascal, Abigail, and johniam. No, I’m not wishy washy nor straddling the fence.
I believe VPW was both born-again and possessed. Similar to the “Jekyll Hyde” scenario. When he was operating the power of God in his life, God was able to reach people through him. God always gets the glory. And part of the way that we give God the glory is giving due respect to the source from which we received the information. It is absolutely true that vpw was not the only source of Godliness in twi. It was abundant in the lives of many people there. Ed*ie Col*man will always have a special place in my heart for “witnessing and undersheparding” me. To my knowledge he is still the great person he was back in our college days. Being thankful to Ed*ie and recognizing the vital role he played in my spiritual growth, honors him as an effective servant of God, as well as honors God by recognizing Him as the source of Ed*ie’s goodness.
It is quite possible that all of the blessings someone received during their affiliation with twi came from someone other than vpw. In that case, vpw would not be accorded the due respect, but rather the person(s) who acted as the instrument of God in touching that person’s life.
Due to possession in some areas of his life, vpw also acted upon the dictates of the devil. In those instances, the devil is to be blamed as well as vpw. It works both ways. God is given the glory for good things, as is the “instrument” through whom he was working. The devil is credited with being the source of the evil things, as well as the “instrument” through whom he was working.
The point of disagreement between Rascal and me, is that she can not see how anyone who could act as heinously as vpw did, could have God in them in at all. At this time, we will agree to disagree, but it will make for wonderful discussions and learning between us. I’m sure I will learn much from Rascal in those discussions.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Dot Matrix
Ron!
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Oakspear
We were discussing giving people enough information to make an informed decision on the last page...
A national political talk show host, when criticized for not giving "equal time" to those of opposing opinions, responds by saying "I am the equal time", in other words, the other guys have their say in their corner of the media, he'll have my say in his corner of the media.
I have a similar opinion of "both sides" of the TWI story.
TWI has the Way Magazine, Sunday Service tapes, classes and fellowships to get their point across. TWI doctrine lives on in some of the offshoots as well. They have a platform for deseminating their views. The anti-TWI view is not given equal time in any of their publications or classes. Why would I want to give both sides of the story, when the other side is perfecty capable of speaking up for itself?
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skyrider
Thanks Deciderator.
Here on GreaseSpot......the only one I saw who REALLY BELIEVED that PFAL = God's Word was a poster named Mike. Seemingly, he spent thousands of hours working pfal and wierwille's tapes....digging for hidden meanings and coded messages to better align his spiritual walk with God. Haven't seen him in awhile here at GS....but he is on a mission to recruit others to this work.
For me, I believe that the Scriptures are God's Word and Divine Guidance.....written by holy men who were moved by holy spirit within them. And yes, when the Scriptures are received and understood in the manner for which God intended.....then and there I have truth, a spiritual perspective of life and godliness.
As a child and going to church, I had held a high respect for The Holy Bible. Many passages and psalms became my favorites, while other sections of the Bible remained a mystery, hidden from view. As I grew older, I shelved many of these questions.......believing that my Heavenly Father would instruct me at the time of His choosing and guidance. Fast forward to pfal: with deep respect for the Scriptures, I felt very awkward to even write notes on the borders of these pages.
When simple verses were read in pfal......my heart could not contain its joy.
When certain sections were expounded in their context.......my eyes of understanding were enlightened.
As a teenager, I thought that I'd reached the summit of spiritual knowledge....and had keys to open doors.
A deep, burning quest to walk like Jesus Christ keep me moving and teaching and ministering to others in the valley of human suffering and need. Small portions and morsels of truth are more than many others have who are hungering and thirsting. And, I thank the Lord for opening doors before me to give and minister to so many.... many of whom never took pfal but were uplifted and encouraged by the Scriptures.
Deciderator......when you mentioned "God's Word with pfal as if they are Siamese twins or something" you noting what many here have stated as "bait and switch".....or in Galatians 3 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you that ye should not obey the truth..."
In many cases, fooling someone or bewitching someone happens OVER A PERIOD OF TIME. In my opinion, few people allow complete strangers to fool them, scam them, bewitch them. It's someone in whom we allow to get in close with us and in the process of living life........the deception takes place.
In hindsight, TO ME (notice I'm not trying to infer this on others).....pfal was like that. I allowed the simple verses and the knowledge to sway me towards wierwille's ministry. I was young and naive and rebellious and wierwille, seemingly, had answers to my spiritual questions. I jumped on-board for a wild and fast ride. BUT AROUND 1995......I saw how pfal's absent-Christ doctrine ALSO shifted emphasis away from the Lordship of Jesus Christ in my life.
So.....no, I would NOT call God's Word and pfal as "Siamese twins." In fact, this thread and other "pfal threads" illustrate the MAJOR DIVERGING PATHS that each one takes.
Here's another cliche by wierwille..........."The Word is the ministry and the ministry is The Word."
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Eyesopen
'Cid
As you have undoubtably noticed this is a touchy point here on GS. Especially in this particular Forum. For many it is difficult if not impossible to seperate The Word/Bible from PFAL and PFAL from VPW. I am not certain why but I do have a theory. As a child I was in a very serious accident while my family and I were traveling back home to Nevada from Michigan. The accident took place in Lincoln Nebraska. For me as a child it was extremely traumatic. The strange thing about this "trauma" incident. It left on my psyche the imprint that Nebraska (the whole state) is evil. Cars arent evil, people arent evil ...nothing else was to blame...it was Nebraska. To this day I avoid that state as much as possible. I think that something similar to this occured to many people concerning the Bible/PFAL/VPW. I know that my hatred of Nebraska is ridiculous...but you are not going to convince me to go there anytime soon. How much more adament will an argument be raised when it comes to The Bible?
I think that you would enjoy the Doctrinal forum. We dont usually get to Wayish in there. We like to go outside the box quite a bit and "amok" sometimes and we learn a lot about the Word and each other.
To make a very long story short...I was chastised for not using the books specifically sanctioned by twi to conduct a simple word study. I used an...dare I say it?...an online referance guild/concordance/lexicon. Its an amazing tool! But it's "online". Ridiculous!
Mostly I just read the Bible and contemplate. But in the instance above I was working on a more "detailed" and analytical type of project.
I admit that I generally enjoy reading your posts. At first you were a bit rough. It appeared that you came into a room where you knew nobody with guns blazing and looking for a fight. But as time wore on you have calmed down considerably. I do understand the desire to be heard and respected. But here at the Spot respect is given and earned rather slowly, and you are beginning to gain some.
When I decided to answer your question is when I felt that it was asked with a true desire to hear and listen to the answers given, hence out of a desire to understand. Your honest response to my answer and other's answers has proven it out that you truly did wish to engage in dialog and perhaps understand us. I think that we will get along just fine. We may not always agree but we can still discuss things and be civil with one another.
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Oakspear
True, Wierwille said that we shouldn't follow men, and that we shouldn't take his or anyone else's word for it, but when you come down to it, isn't that what he expected us to do?
Despite the large number of bible verses that are read straight from the KJV, how many things did we accept just because he said so? When he said this means such-and-such, or defined Greek or Hebrew wordss in such a way that his view was backed up, or camed to conclusions that had no visible means of support? Sure, there were people who would tell you things like “if that what your heart tells you to believe, then stick with it.” - but were you ever allowed to teach those things? Yeah, I had the occassional person tell me stuff like that, but the more common response was to "hold it in abeyance" until I saw what Wierwille's point was; someday I'd "get it".
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Oakspear
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Eyesopen
Not the people in it Oak! Just that nasty corn filled state! I'll get over it someday....renew your mind Eyes!
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Sushi
POSTED BY ABIGAIL
and EYES said:
I can tell you why it was for me.
1. There was a ton of repitition, so when you read the Bible you tended to "see" what you had heard over and over again, instead of seeing anything else.
2. By 4 years or so into my time with TWI we were all to be "tapped into the root" and we were to "obey leadership" If you didn't obey leadership you were off the word, sinning, outside god's hedge of protection. You weren't really allowed to question what was taught, lest you get a face melting.
3. We were taught if we didn't understand something we were to "hold it in abeyance" until the understanding came. But we were expected to act on what we didn't understand while we were holding it in abeyance. The result was bascially that you were to practice it regardless of what you believed.
4. Often times when I saw something in the Bible that contradicted what TWI taught, I assumed it was an "error in my understanding" not an error in their teaching.
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excathedra
good points, sushi
sky
ain't that the truth !
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Suda
Hey ((((((Ron)))))). Have missed you, dear friend. So glad to see you and like your new avatar. But the old one was “more you”, imo.
Loved your first and last reasons. Perfect!
Hope to see you more frequently. Maybe in chat?
Suda
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Suda
Tom Strange’s post # 573 hit a paradigm for me that I needed to work through.
Instead of just having a head knowledge that many here feel this way, I’m finally beginning to see it with my heart, and, man, does that help. I know it’s been written out there, and I’ve read it, but finally I am seeing it. In untangling the incongruence between the Public and Private personas of VPW, I had to let go of the “Father in the Word” image of him because the heinous acts he perpetrated against some in his flock. I did that not soon after arriving at GSC. Yet I can still accord him due respect for the positive impact he had on my life. Yes, I realize it was God who is responsible, and I give him the glory. I give due respect only to those areas in VPW’s life where he did manifest the Christ in Him, and the gems of truth he taught in PFAL and via other teachings and publications, that were inspired of GOD. In these instances of his representation of the truth as inspired by God and teaching it, he presented the liberating information of the Bible to me and thousands of others. This, and only this, I give him due respect for. According him due respect in these areas only is, to me, giving God the glory, by recognizing God’s hand in these areas. Despite the evil nature of other areas in vpw’s life, God was able to use his teaching skills to reach me, and it is for the truth of the Word he taught that I am thankful for, not him personally. And I do believe that God was working in him “to will and to do of His good pleasure”.I do not deny that he may have stolen it from B. G. Leonard and others (I say may, because I have not researched it on my own, but will shortly. My gut certainly tells me it is true, and I do not doubt those that have told me here and elsewhere. But kinda like White Dove and Deciderator, it won’t fully meld in my mind and reach my heart until I taste the pudding for myself. That is why, to me, the honest word to use here is may. Very soon I will probably change that to “he did steal”, but until then, it’s may.)
And at the same time I accord VPW due respect, I have uttermost contempt for him for peddling his private agendas to me disguised behind contorted use of scripture that were also presented in PFAL (and other teachings and publications as well). And I believe it was God working within ME “to will and to do of His good pleasure” that I never latched on to a lot of those perverted teachings. I did not escape all, but, thank God, I escaped most. Just as God directed VPW’s steps in some areas of his life, the devil guided his steps in many others. The devil is the true author of the lies vpw taught us, and the master planner of how it blended in so subliminally with the truth. Do I hold the devil responsible, and give vpw a pass because he was tricked?. Hell no! I don’t think vpw was tricked in many of the evils he propounded, rather that vpw understood the wrong decisions he made. But he chose to magnify his own ego over God, and adopted the devilish doctrines and spread them as fervently as he spread the good news of the gospel. I believe it was an error of heart of vpw’s part, not an error or judgement. I can give people a pass on faulty judgement. But not on errors of heart, as I believe they made them consciously and willfully with full understanding he was choosing evil over good.
In the Bible we read of accounts where “good” people (can’t say Christian because was in the gospels) were possessed of devil spirits and that they were delivered from them. Until now, my mind saw those people as “totally marred or oozing from possession”, i.e., if I ran into them on the street, for safety sake I would feel compelled to cross the street and get away from them immediately. But in truth, many of those who were “possessed” were only partially stricken. They had mostly sane moments, many people would probably be unaware a problem existed if they just saw them walking down the street or had casual dealings with them. If they got to know them, they may say, “Overall he is a pretty good Joe, but if you hit on a sore subject with him, watch out, he goes totally berserk!” And those “sore subjects” would be the “devil spirit possession”. Just as all people have faults to some degree or another, and most faults are just that, faults. However, some people who have a lot (or less) good in them can have faults to the extreme of devil possession. And that person can manifest both the goodness of God in their lives if they are born again, as well as the evil of the devil if they are possessed. Same person. And that person can seek deliverance from God of the spirit possession, or they can so assimilate the evil into their lives and hearts that they want no deliverance in those areas of their lives.
That may come about because - and this is totally conjecture on my part - if someone had been overly lustful since puberty, and saw that as virility or some such thing, they may see that as a good thing, not a bad thing, and thus not want to change. And as they continue in that manner, it grows increasingly worse - from hanging out with “women who will” to trying to persuade and manipulate “women who won’t”, to forcing women “to do”. At some point, this human lust becomes spiritual lust because “the door was wide open and the devil made himself at home”. So then they become totally selfish about that lust and find reasons to justify and rationalize their behavior and figure “If I can accomplish it by any means possible, doesn’t bother me, too bad for them. If I want it, I can take it, and dam* the consequences to that person if they can’t handle it.”
And if they have this possesion and/or attitude in one area of their lives, it will creep over into other their other character weaknesses to some degree or another. They may become possessed in other areas, also, and feel no need for deliverance because their mind is seared in those parts. But other parts of their minds are not seared, and God can work with those parts. So it is quite possible that VPW was born of God’s spirit and at the same time was possessed of devil spirits. Thus, we have the description of some of his victims of “cold, dead eyes” while under the possession of the devil and the “dynamic, alive eyes” when he was teaching the Bible while manifesting the love of God. Son of the Master’s post # 562
The violation of free will is giving up your choice to choose to do what you know is the right thing to do, dismissing it completely due to your own ego, and letting spiritual lust control your action.And because publically, VPW manifested Godliness, (which we were encouraged to elevate to the point we put him on the pedestal as MOGFOD&T or "Father in the Word" or "modern day Moses", etc.) the idea of simultaneous possession never entered my mind until today. If I detected weaknesses, they were chalked up to being character flaws like everyone has to some degree or another. But when you see the unconscionable acts he perpetrated, there is no room for God in those acts. They were totally evil and therefore could only emanate from the god of this world, the devil. And that was the how the devil was able to infiltrate the twi “organization” because people could not or did not separate the Godly parts of VPW from the devilish parts, but viewed him as a whole, sound, Godly person. Nor were we able to clearly distinguish the devilish doctrines. We could distinguish them from the Godly ones however, because the devilish ones caused us confusion, trouble in understanding, hit our gut or hearts wrong, etc. It was difficult for those of us not already grounded in the Bible to distinguish between the proper use of scripture and the twisted scripture to support the devilishness.
Moreover, vpw was very effective at hiding his private persona, and only displaying it to those he chose. And he also chose the degree to which he showed his real colors. Most only got quick glimpses, which they chalked up to “usual human flaws”. And, for some, when they got over the shock, and dismissed the quick glimpses, he’d show more and more, twisting scripture to justify or rationalize it. Some had the wisdom to see through his smoke screen and confront him on it. And when they did, he berated them and tried to manipulate them into accepting his reality. When they would not, he would destroy their reputations and credibility to the point they were ostracized. And that robbed the rest of us of the “wise counselors” to whom we could take our questions and concerns. According him due respect to me is giving God the glory, that despite the nature of the man, God was able to use his teaching skills to reach me, for it is the truth of the Word he taught that I am thankful for, not him personally. And I do believe that God was working in him “to will and to do of His good pleasure” much of the time when he was in his public persona. But the devil was right there too, giving him the ability to wear his sheep’s clothes to cover the wolverine facets of his being.
And where was God in all this? He was always right there, in the Christ in each of us. He was the one talking, and sometimes yelling, to our conscience, saying “Warning!” “Stay Away” “This isn't right - go with your gut, your heart, don’t be tricked” “when in doubt, DON’T” “NO, NO, NO!” And just as furiously as He was fighting for us, the devil was fighting against us. He had permeated the twi organization, oozed into every nook and cranny, and was waiting for each and every opportunity to pounce on us, little and medium and great. He destroyed (via vpw and his henchmen) our wise counselors, he kept propounding his false doctrine and drilling it into our head, he manipulated us into “follow leadership at all costs - even if you make the wrong decision, God will honor it because you are following your leadership”. He STOLE our freedom of will when we were unable to battle through the darkness and confusion. God was doing his best, but his people were “dazed and confused” and overpowered by the devil’s men “who knew all the answers” and scolded and berated you if you were unable to see it. God was always there, fighting for us, trying to reach us, but we allowed ourselves to be tricked, thus allowing ourselves in those battles to be beaten by the principalities and powers of of darkness. Yes, we lost those battles, but WE DID NOT LOSE THE WAR. It still rages, minute by minute, but as we follow God, and intreat Jesus Christ as our personal savior, we win the battles. And Jesus Christ has already won the war for us. Lean unto Them, and we will win the daily battles, also.
So does that mean we that were tricked are to blame? Perhaps partially. We made errors in judgement, which usually could account for no more than 20%. But the 80% or greater responsibility, the principal and dominating responsibility, was due to the devil, and those who made errors of heart and adopted the devilish doctrines as their truth, and mercilessly hammered us with them until we accepted them or left the organization. So our responsibility is contributory, their’s is the prime and principal reason and cause.
So if we are not to blame ourselves, what are we to do? We are to realize and understand that we battled against the powers of darkness and lost because we failed to heed the warnings of God, and therefore walked outside His protection. Accept the wrong decision, and FORGIVE ourselves first. Then feel the anger and rage and let it all out. Go to God and our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ for comfort, guidance, and direction so that we can begin the healing process. We come to understand the where, when, how, who of being tricked, and learn how to avoid that in the future. We forgive others to the best of our ability when we are capable. It may require a little here and a little there, until it can be accomplished. We let go of the confusion and bitterness and hurt. And in that healing process, we go as quickly as we can, and as slowly as we must. We don’t skip steps and bury things. We deal with it all, no matter how long it takes, then claim in victory in Christ Jesus and then move on.
T-Bone has a great post #517.
Find your shoes in there, step in them, wear them until you understand where and how the blisters are coming from, then make the neccessary corrections. Then throw those damned shoes away and put on a pair that fits.Now that is just my take on it at this time. Others came to different conclusions which are as valid for them as mine are to me. Not saying I’m right and they’re wrong, or vice versa. Just that we differ. For some the progression may have followed more closely to this line of reasoning. If I accept that VPW committed unconscionable acts, they are evil and devilish and therefore he could not be born again of God’s spirit. And if he was not born again of God’s spirit, then teaching the Bible was just a vocation to him, like selling Fuller brushes is to others. And why would he choose that as the product to sell? So that he could set up an organization that would (1) provide a high standard of living, (2) provide the adulation and ego stroking he wanted, (3) as owner he would be “boss” and would allow no “bucking the boss” and thus have total control, power, and authority, and (4) provide a steady stream of nubile young creatures to use for his pleasure.
Thus, he went out and shopped around for a product to steal. He found it in B. G. Leonard’s class, and along the way picked up other people’s ideas. He then incorporated all of it into his product and called it PFAL. That product was his bait. And he was mighty good at fishing with it, and over time finally succeeded in getting a full net of “fishes” for himself. Once he got them hooked on his public persona, he could little by little expose the private persona, and since he was the boss, they either accepted it or he “fired” them. And the “groupie” fish who had similar desires for power, he could mold into his henchmen to protect his private persona from those he did not wish to expose it to. And he would get them in on all the evil acts, so that if they ever “saw the truth”, they would have to sacrifice themselves in order to expose him, and most would be unwilling to do that.
Many of the fishies would never see his “true” self, because he needed them ignorant in order to tempt others with his bait. And the more people who sold his bait, the more fishies he had to keep ignorant and supply him with the dough to support his lifestyle. They are happy in their ignorant bliss, he is happy as their boss. And life goes on. And the farce goes on. And everybody is happy. And if they accept this scenario, that they were ignorant fish attracting more and more fish into their school to support his lifestyle in the farce, then they have to accept that they were duped. And thus he was evil from the beginning, and just got worse as his “school of fish” grew which afforded him more power and authority over more people.
The bottom line of this scenario is summarized in WordWolf’s post #606 (whether or not it is his opinion, I do not know, as he does not state his opinion, but is asking Oldiesman a question).
And I can understand that line of reasoning. But to the question above posed by WordWolf, I would have to answer no, because I see a huge flaw in it I can’t accept. And that is that I know personally, in my heart of hearts, that it was GOD that reached me through VPW. And the great majority of people I was surrounded by in twi had also been touched by GOD through their affiliation. So to me, I believe he was born again, and that God did work through him, but that he also was greatly influenced by the devil. I believe he started out hungering and thirsting for the knowledge of God and found it and ministered it to people. But along the way, the gave over his free-will control of areas of his life to the devil, and let him control them. And disaster resulted for him personally, destroyed his organization, and hurt many in varying degrees in the process.ExWayCorps, in post #918 alludes to this
EyesOpen makes a good point related to this in post #622
In totality, this is true. But many (only or primarily) saw the areas in his life where he did walk the talk - his public persona - which was just as real as his private persona. And this issued in good for people in their lives. But in those areas where he did not walk the talk, that’s where the destruction of lives took place and people experienced treatment inspired and executed by the devil himself.And the “old timers” that remain in the shell of his former organization are there because, as stated by Tom Strange
As Dot Matrix stated in post #484, they have failed to make an important distinction.
and in #748As we see clearly now, our loyalty is to God and his Son, Christ Jesus, only. We get tricked when we let anyone else, anything else, or any organization take Their place in our hearts, minds, and lives.
The good we gained from our affiliation with twi was good because it was of God, and the evil we suffered was deplorable and unconscionable because it was of the devil. And VPW emanated both. Both God and the devil were alive and thriving in vpw and twi. And just as the good deeds we do for God resound from generation to generation, so does the evil one does for the devil. Both impacts are mighty and life altering. And on Judgment Day we will receive our just reward for the good we have done as well as be held accountable for the evil we have done. Today we reap the benefits of God’s mercy and his grace. I doubt that will be the case on Judgment Day.
At the Bema each person will receive rewards for the good we have done. But we will also have to face any evils we perpetrated, and will be held responsible and accountable for those. And for those who consciously committed evil, that will scorch and sear them for eternity, imo. Their rewards will not be withheld nor negated, but it will severely handicap their spiritual utilization of them throughout eternity. So at the “final Rock of Ages” in the air for eternity, I visualize vpw and his henchmen being on eternal “honeywagon” duty, dwelling in the cesspool by day, and sleeping in the rain drenched tent city by night. The rest of us will be in the Big Top, in the audience, enjoying God on the platform, even helping and assisting Him up there. And we will retire at night, protected from the rain, thunder, and lightening, and rest peacefully in the RV camp.
Rascal, you have given me a great topic for a personal word study - inheritance - in Galatians 5.
"I am simply going by Galations chapter 5 that states that those who have done what vpw are of the flesh and shall have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God."
(The parameters here will not allow any further quotes to stand out in quote marks. Therefore, I am putting them in quotes and centering them. Sorry!)
In post #712, Larry N Moore states,
"I think Gamaliel said it best when he said: ". . . for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."
I heard VPW speak words similar to this on several occasions. And we see how true it is in retrospect. The part of his ministry that was founded on men, based on devilish doctrines, justified and rationalized by twisted the scripture, that is, the organization of twi, has come to nought. But that which was of God, which led to the new birth or ignition of revival in the heart and lives of each of God’s precious children, you and me, still lives and abides in us, and will continue as long we choose to follow God. For it is “Christ IN You, the Hope of Glory!”
Suda (with humility and thankfulness for all who contributed to this thread and helped me make this paradigm shift)
P. S. I realize this post will anger and hurt some posters and many lurkers. Please know that I would not have posted it if I did not feel compelled to do so.
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tonto
Awesome post, Suda! Your summary was wonderful, but in the paragraph below you have described what I believed happened but couldn't find the words to express:
Thank you for taking the time to work through this and share your musings with us.
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act2
Suda,
Thank you for your post. It had to have taken quite a while to key in!!
I was where you were when I first came to waydale and then GS. I quickly changed my thinking and abhorred the things that happened so many years ago to so many ... and then more recently with lcm.
I respect you for taking your time to digest all that you read. I have seen some gradual changes these past several months.
I do wish that we had met before hubby and I left Memphis, but I had just been on gs for a while and we were so busy. Some time, though, when we go back to visit Memphis, I would love to meet you and Sudo at Salsa's in Germantown. I do miss that place!!!
God bless you, Suda.
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wrdsandwrks
Suda, Awesome post! Thanks so much for taking the time to share your thought processes with us. It just confirms again to me that some of the greatest people (like you) were in TWI. I'm proud to be at the cafe with you.
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Suda
Thanks for the feedback, Tonto, Act2, and wrds&works.
Act2, will meet you at Salsa anytime you are in town! Sudo and I both love it.
Suda
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Suda
Perhaps it was God's mercy for him, and his grace for many (and most unfortunately, not all) of us, that kept that Private Persona largely hidden from view.
I've mentioned this many times to people, but never understood it until now. At lcm's ordination, when vpw passed the mantle to him, and placed it around his shoulders, I felt a most heavy, crashing thud in my heart. Not a rejoicing but more like a death knell. And it confused me. The ordination ceremony had no joy for me. The fellowship before and after was wonderful, but the ceremony it self lacked life and vitality. It was primarily pomp and ceremony. Some of the teachings were good, but even they lacked the dynamic force I was accustomed to hearing at HQ.
I think it was because when vpw passed that mantle, it was the final death knoll for twi as some of us had known it. lcm had many more "bats in his belfrey" than vpw. His "ministy" began with an egocentric, self aggrandizing, spectacle, "The Athletes of the Spirt". That was the first thing I never felt any desire to buy or have anything to do with. It was a "good Hollywood production" but nothing else. There were little pieces of good, but overall it was a failure in a spiritual sense. It probably had great potential, but lcm had to be the star, so I'm sure he quashed what was good.
Once he took the reins, the organization spiraled downward quickly. That's when the exodus began, and the mass exodus ended with "the loyalty oath." lcm never had the spiritual "glue" to even keep up a pretext of Godliness, as VPW had.
Chas's thread about "What is was then" or something along that lines comes to mind. Yeah, the early days were grand. But why? In addition to stealing a class, vpw hijacked the ministries of great spiritual men at that time. God was alive and vital in many people. So it was not only vpw, but the ministries of those great men, that drew us to twi. It had the potential for "setting the world on fire", but vpw invited the devil in, let him permeate it, steal, kill, and destroy anyone he could, so it turned from greatness and light and became darker and darker until the light faded away completely with lcm. God must have wept sorely that the devil was able to hijack a true (at least one of the true) revival for our generation.
It makes it easier for me to understand now how people could come out of twi and chuck the whole thing. It rips my heart out when people equate my dear God to Santa Claus, and the Bible to fairy tales and fables. Nothing could cause me greater hurt or pain, not even the death of my beloved parents comes close, and that was devastating to say the least. If they were born again, the devil has been able to steal from them and kill them spiritually now, but they are not destoyed, for the God in Christ in them lays dormant in them, just waiting to be revitalized. It is my prayer for them that occurs sooner rather than later. I sometimes wonder if it is pride that was their downfall. Tom Strange's post comes to mind again
Please note that I am snipping only a part of his quote, and do not ascribe such pride to Tom Strange personally. I don't know what his innermost feelings are, nor do I need to.But that is just my viewpoint. Many seem okay with making that choice, and they are certainly free to do so. Just standing in my shoes, I can see how it may happen, but couldn't imagine myself ever making that decision. So my desires for them are selfish. I can't imagine life without God, and wish that for everyone. To me, to be without God is to be without hope in this world. But I can accept some not feel as I do, and I will accept their choices. I think it will always make me sad, but I can accept it and move on.
Suda
P. S. And as for lots of VPW's later teaching - he had an expert research staff at his disposal as well as talented Corps writing research papers, often on designated topics if I understand correctly. And "if you work for Proctor and Gamble, your research belongs to Proctor and Gamble" not you, the individual. Those above you are entitled to take it and use it, and if they have no ethics, will not give you any of the credit. Much of the research - when done with the researcher and God, and not under devilish parameters established by vpw - was grand. And vpw incorporated it into his own teachings and publications and some of them were top notch, imo.
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Lifted Up
I think I get what you are saying. PFAL of course taught that Santa Claus is not God, and that the Bible is not fairy tales and fables. And if someone had a horrendous experience in TWI, done in the name or pretense of following those principles, then they may throw those principles out, and you understand that. But iit "rips your heart out" because you believe, as I do, that God and Jesus and the Bible are real.
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rascal
OK, so after contact with this fellows ministry people ended up chucking God. People whom were searching for God were decieved, families destryed, people died.
It still sounds like we are giving vpw way to much credit. Are these NOT the actions of a false prophet? Teach enough scripture to fool people and draw them away from God?
Are we supposed to give a false prophet credit for the good when the good was simply used to lure us into the bad??
Can false prophet be a little good and some bad?
I thought we were told to have nothing to do with guys like this. Probably not because they don` teach scripture...but because of the harm that they have the potential to cause...They don`t have the love of God inside of them as a moral compass.
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Abigail
I tend to agree with you, Rascal. I think the good that came out of TWI came because of God, not VPW. I believe God was able to work to heal people INSPITE of VPW and LCM, not BECAUSE of them.
I have the same opinion regarding PFAL. God worked inspite of them, not because of them. God worked because of US, not because of VPW or LCM. VPW and LCM used God's Word as a weapon against people and God turned that weapon around and used it to heal some.
Why some were more hurt than others, I cannot say for certain. I think some of it had to do with the closer you were to those of the ilk of VPW and LCM, the more likely you were to get burned.
So, while I can honestly say I was healed of certain things while in TWI, I would not give credit for that healing to anyone but God.
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johniam
quote: So, while I can honestly say I was healed of certain things while in TWI, I would not give credit for that healing to anyone but God.
If that's true then we're all robots. Abigail, in your case it wasn't VP, but it was people, not God, who witnessed to you, agape'd you, taught you the word face to face, etc. Same old double standard: give God the credit, not VP, but give VP the blame, not the devil. Well, I think God is going to give people credit for what they do that is good.
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doojable
You know....this gets real old...
I sat through PFAL. If that was all there was, no twig, no ROA, no, Corps, etc., I would have kept on my merry way looking for more. The class was a C-L-A-S-S that's it.
It was the people that kept me there and kept teaching that made every gel. The class wasn't a miracle on tape.
Regardless, GOD does the healing. Yea, yea, I know... I can do the works... the Book of Acts says... Say it anyway you want, the bottom line is that God gets the glory for His work and not ANY MAN.
OR
We can play it your way:
God worked in people to bless me and heal me - everyonce in a while for a select few, God worked in VPW.
The Devil worked in VPW and other of his ilk when he chose to steal another man's work, drug and rape women, made up stories of possession to shut people up...
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Abigail
No, Johniam (or Jean, whichever one of you wrote this). First, I am not a robot - I prayed to God and asked for His guidance and direction. I do believe he led me to a group of people who could and did help me tremendously. I also believe I blew it by not getting out when His still small voice told me to.
Yes, I believe some of the people played a role in my getting healed, but the ultimate credit goes to God. Yes, I am thankful for those people (VPW was dead and gone before I ever came to TWI, he does not get credit as one of those people. VPW used God's Word to hurt people and God took that weapon and turned it to good to help people, so again VPW does not get credit).
I don't believe in your devil Johniam. One of my big contentions with the teachings of TWI is how much power they give to the devil. At least by the time I left, it seemed that according to TWI the devil had far more power than God does. Shame on them!! They used the devil to instill fear instead of teaching God to instill peace!!!
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Suda
Abigail:
Johniam:If you understand my posts, you will see that I agree with Rascal, Abigail, and johniam. No, I’m not wishy washy nor straddling the fence.
I believe VPW was both born-again and possessed. Similar to the “Jekyll Hyde” scenario. When he was operating the power of God in his life, God was able to reach people through him. God always gets the glory. And part of the way that we give God the glory is giving due respect to the source from which we received the information. It is absolutely true that vpw was not the only source of Godliness in twi. It was abundant in the lives of many people there. Ed*ie Col*man will always have a special place in my heart for “witnessing and undersheparding” me. To my knowledge he is still the great person he was back in our college days. Being thankful to Ed*ie and recognizing the vital role he played in my spiritual growth, honors him as an effective servant of God, as well as honors God by recognizing Him as the source of Ed*ie’s goodness.
It is quite possible that all of the blessings someone received during their affiliation with twi came from someone other than vpw. In that case, vpw would not be accorded the due respect, but rather the person(s) who acted as the instrument of God in touching that person’s life.
Due to possession in some areas of his life, vpw also acted upon the dictates of the devil. In those instances, the devil is to be blamed as well as vpw. It works both ways. God is given the glory for good things, as is the “instrument” through whom he was working. The devil is credited with being the source of the evil things, as well as the “instrument” through whom he was working.
The point of disagreement between Rascal and me, is that she can not see how anyone who could act as heinously as vpw did, could have God in them in at all. At this time, we will agree to disagree, but it will make for wonderful discussions and learning between us. I’m sure I will learn much from Rascal in those discussions.
Suda
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Ham
Yep.. "God" worked through Capone too..
To function in society, a really really really bad man needs friends, and a LOT of them..
as smart as Capone was, he couldn't exactly watch his own back.
He had to rely on stooges dumb enough to think he was actually a good guy.
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