I see PFAL as being more trouble than it's worth to get much good out of it. That's just my opinion, of course – based on my studies of systematic theology after leaving TWI. I'm not saying I'm right on everything that I believe now – but when I consider that I've rejected a substantial amount of the doctrines taught in PFAL and anything I thought was valid could have easily been found elsewhere without having to pay for and sit through a long class – I've just gotta say – why bother? I wasted a whole lot of time and energy to find out that a lot of PFAL is worthless. So, if I were an honest salesman trying to sell PFAL – I'd say "The teacher quotes a lot of the KJV Bible – a translation I find inaccurate and hard to read, I disagree with over 90 % of the teacher's interpretation of it, and you've got to watch out for the practical consequence of that 90 %. You risk the possibility of spinning your wheels trying to make God do things for you, making screwball decisions based on feelings and elusive first-thoughts, screwing up your life, losing friends and family, becoming an arrogant & judgmental a$$ toward Christians who hadn't taken PFAL – but if you're okay with all that – hey, I'll be more than happy to take your $100 dollars."
Ya know T-bone, you would have saved yourself some time by just saying - "No, because I didn't see ANYTHING good in it." Then I would have to ask: Why should I take your word for it?
Actually, I was referring to something else. I saw a tenacious, almost desparate to keep the class set in stone. It was almost as if the class had been breathed out by God Himself...
I won't finish that statement. I feel the wagons circling already...
Yes, there was, indeed, an almost desperate attempt to keep the class set in stone.
Wierwille never said that the class was God-Breathed but he surely did not go out of his way to dissuade those who did.
People watched that class with an almost hypnotic fixation, hoping to catch some glimpse of a deep and mysterious meaning that had been hidden from mankind.
"Did you notice how he raised the pitch of his voice as he expounded on----------------?"(fill in the blank)
"Did you see how he scratched his nose with his RIGHT hand?"
"Did you hear him say 'Sits there like a duck'?":-)
We were encourage to watch the class over and over and told that if we did so, new "gems" would rise to the surface for our discovery each time.
"It's The Word---------" was just a catch phrase, folks.
As such, it has no definitive meaning of its own until you put it in a specific context.
The context that Wierwille set it in was that of allegiance to PFAL, TWI and the business of promoting them.
(ie: It was a sales campaign slogan, at least in the context that he stated it.)
After all, aren't we really talking about what it meant in the context where Wierwille placed it? Hmmm?
maybe they didn't want to change the class because of the books , if they began a revised version: all those books would be old and unable to be used as well.
most people in twi and i mean MOST didn't know the bible other than what pfal put in their head , independent thought and thinking and study was a bad bad thing.
many didn't discuss bible they spewed pfal and only pfal. it wasn't intellectual thought it was eat and puke the same stuff day in and day out. and most where so over worked or stressed they wouldn't have been able to learn anything on their own without their teacher telling them it was OK.
Yes, there was, indeed, an almost desperate attempt to keep the class set in stone.
Wierwille never said that the class was God-Breathed but he surely did not go out of his way to dissuade those who did.
People watched that class with an almost hypnotic fixation, hoping to catch some glimpse of a deep and mysterious meaning that had been hidden from mankind.
"Did you notice how he raised the pitch of his voice as he expounded on----------------?"(fill in the blank)
"Did you see how he scratched his nose with his RIGHT hand?"
"Did you hear him say 'Sits there like a duck'?":-)
We were encourage to watch the class over and over and told that if we did so, new "gems" would rise to the surface for our discovery each time.
"It's The Word---------" was just a catch phrase, folks.
As such, it has no definitive meaning of its own until you put it in a specific context.
The context that Wierwille set it in was that of allegiance to PFAL, TWI and the business of promoting them.
(ie: It was a sales campaign slogan, at least in the context that he stated it.)
After all, aren't we really talking about what it meant in the context where Wierwille placed it? Hmmm?
Why didn’t VP ever make it to HOLLYWOOD?? I mean, after all the credits for pfal conversions, classes, etc., and with corps support, surely he could have converted at least half our Jewish brethren working in LA !! And in the process remake the original class??
The Way Mag. might have then had a section called...Jews in the News!!
Ya know T-bone, you would have saved yourself some time by just saying - "No, because I didn't see ANYTHING good in it." Then I would have to ask: Why should I take your word for it?
Agreed. A discriminating shopper will check things out for themselves and comparison shop. Seems like there's a lack of criteria or intellectual standards when most folks talk about PFAL – that's why I said "based on my studies of systematic theology after leaving TWI". In my opinion, PFAL is a sloppy patchwork of systematic theology, philosophies of questionable pedigree and Gnostic-like commentary that is solely based on one deceitful, lewd, deluded, egocentric man…When it comes to Bible study - the PFAL grad is not into "comparison shopping", checking out other viewpoints…other commentaries, doing their own research – or even checking out a "consumer report" [like this thread – listen to all the satisfied customers of PFAL ]….Really, I do agree – I don't think one should just take another's word for it. I like to check things out myself! Of course, now I'm a little more familiar with the Bible, biblical hermeneutics, and research tools – and not very impressed by the Vickster's inept imitation of scholarship.
…by the way, I was responding to your post by saying what I would tell someone about PFAL. Did I say there isn't anything good in PFAL? I said, "I've rejected a substantial amount of the doctrines taught in PFAL." I'd enjoy going over every point in PFAL – to quantify "a substantial amount" but I bet I'd bore everyone here to tears…and this is not the doctrinal forum anyway. I love talking about what I believe - did so on Another Dan's Spot Survey thread…It seems most PFAL grads have a hard time analyzing something they've mindlessly absorbed for years – and so it's difficult for them to articulate what THEY THINK point by point with PFAL.
Actually, I was referring to something else. I saw a tenacious, almost desparate to keep the class set in stone. It was almost as if the class had been breathed out by God Himself...
I won't finish that statement. I feel the wagons circling already...
... and when he breathed, his breath had the remarkable odor of Drambuie..
Agreed. A discriminating shopper will check things out for themselves and comparison shop. Seems like there's a lack of criteria or intellectual standards when most folks talk about PFAL – that's why I said "based on my studies of systematic theology after leaving TWI". In my opinion, PFAL is a sloppy patchwork of systematic theology, philosophies of questionable pedigree and Gnostic-like commentary that is solely based on one deceitful, lewd, deluded, egocentric man…When it comes to Bible study - the PFAL grad is not into "comparison shopping", checking out other viewpoints…other commentaries, doing their own research – or even checking out a "consumer report" [like this thread – listen to all the satisfied customers of PFAL ]….Really, I do agree – I don't think one should just take another's word for it. I like to check things out myself! Of course, now I'm a little more familiar with the Bible, biblical hermeneutics, and research tools – and not very impressed by the Vickster's inept imitation of scholarship.
…by the way, I was responding to your post by saying what I would tell someone about PFAL. Did I say there isn't anything good in PFAL? I said, "I've rejected a substantial amount of the doctrines taught in PFAL." I'd enjoy going over every point in PFAL – to quantify "a substantial amount" but I bet I'd bore everyone here to tears…and this is not the doctrinal forum anyway. I love talking about what I believe - did so on Another Dan's Spot Survey thread…It seems most PFAL grads have a hard time analyzing something they've mindlessly absorbed for years – and so it's difficult for them to articulate what THEY THINK point by point with PFAL.
Question: How many years were you involved with The Way? I ask, because now that you seemed to discovered so many flaws, how long did it take? Did you also “mindlessly absorb it all??
As a “discriminating shopper”, based on your “systematic theology after leaving TWI”, are there any pfal highlights which you would convey as a sloppy patchwork...etc., when it comes to Bible study?
In other words, do you think the pfal shopper of today is as “gullible” as when you were shopping??
…by the way, I was responding to your post by saying what I would tell someone about PFAL.
<snip>
Yes but, my question was: "Can you share both with someone uninformed?" You've made it abundantly clear why you wouldn't. If I was an "uninformed" observer you wouldn't have help me make an informed decision in the slightest. It was completely one-sided. A one-sided synopsis does not an informed decision make.
Deciderator, in response to your post #1090, again, I thought I had answered your question. But let me clairfy.
From the posts I've read, those who still consider themselves Christians regard the Bible as the rulebook of that faith. But they are very careful, as you are, to come to conclusions for themselves, and not accept someone else's interpretation or viewpoint without careful consideration.
You ask, if I had questions concerning the Hope of the Return of Jesus Christ, how would I find my answers. Per my statement above,
regard the Bible as the rulebook of that faith.
my first source of reference would be the Bible. Before beginning my study quest, I would pray and ask God for guidance in helping me to understand clearly what is written therein. I would also employ research aids, such as Tyndale's The Word Study Concordance and Bullinger's Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, my two favorites to start any study with. I also find it helpful to read what other people's research has unfolded to them and see the "backup" upon which they base their conclusions. And I will discuss it with other people, may even start a thread here in Doctrinal to get input. In evaluating the input of others, my "gold standard" is "does what they say line up with my understanding of what the Bible says? But after all is said is done, I would
come to conclusions for themselves
, or in this case for myself.
So, again, if the Word = the Bible, and nothing but the Bible, then my answer to your question would have to be no. It is the starting and the finishing point, but not the only point of reference.
Great quotes by Larry N. Moore and Doojable, respectively.
One of things VP said in PFAL was: "Ephesians advises in chapter 6, "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord . . ." It does not tell us to be strong in what a theologian may say or in what a Bible teacher may say. If the theologian says what The Word says, if the teacher says what The Word says, then you have to be strong in what they say because of The Word, not because of the men." When he said this I took it to mean that we weren't to be "strong" even in what he said unless what he said was an accurate interpretation.
VPW said himself that the class would one day need to be re-taught. I assumed his thinking was that as the culture changed, the class would also have to change. I also thought he implied that the class was the best that he knew at that time and as more of the Word was understood, the errors would need to be corrected.
From the beginning of my association with twi I took statements such as those (heard many similar things from other believers before taking the class) to heart. That as a Research ministry, twi was dynamic, not static. I always felt encouraged to bring up questions when my study or gut feel, even, contradicted what twi was teaching. The great majority of the time, the questions were encouraged and there was no “VP says it, that settles it” attitude, but rather, “if that what your heart tells you to believe, then stick with it.” When I did run into VP=Truth, I would remind them that it contradicted what he, himself, had said.
Too bad twi didn't stick to this. It was the core reason for the downfall, imo.
Yes but, my question was: "Can you share both with someone uninformed?" You've made it abundantly clear why you wouldn't. If I was an "uninformed" observer you wouldn't have help me make an informed decision in the slightest. It was completely one-sided. A one-sided synopsis does not an informed decision make.
The onus is really on the uninformed observer – the one wanting to make an informed decision. If they were smart, they wouldn’t just listen to one person’s opinion. And what is the decision they’re needing to make, anyway? Is PFAL everything they claim it is?...I would think a smart uninformed observer would find some helpful things from my response: “I don't think one should just take another's word for it. I like to check things out myself! Of course, now I'm a little more familiar with the Bible, biblical hermeneutics, and research tools – and not very impressed by the Vickster's inept imitation of scholarship.”
To elaborate on the helpful hints in my reply – I would suggest the uninformed observer get familiar with things the class covers: read other translations of the Bible, systematic theologies from various authors, study the field of biblical hermeneutics, have basic knowledge of biblical languages, critical texts….then take PFAL – and apply the same intellectual standards used in all the stuff I just mentioned with the content of PFAL…I did it in reverse order – I took PFAL first – after leaving TWI I checked out these things and found out how slipshod ol’ Vickster was. Besides plagiarizing, making up his own definitions of biblical words, he’d fabricate texts.
Question: How many years were you involved with The Way? I ask, because now that you seemed to discovered so many flaws, how long did it take? Did you also "mindlessly absorb it all??
As a "discriminating shopper", based on your "systematic theology after leaving TWI", are there any pfal highlights which you would convey as a sloppy patchwork...etc., when it comes to Bible study?
In other words, do you think the pfal shopper of today is as "gullible" as when you were shopping??
Was with TWI for 12 years. Left in 86 – it’s taken me all those years up until now to discover the flaws – and the list is still growing. But it’s really more of a hobby now – my main thing is enjoying life without TWI’s intellectual ball and chain around my head….And oh yeah, I mindlessly absorbed everything in PFAL.
Oh…there’s a bunch of PFAL slop highlights – I can think of one right off the top – the Vickster talks about the Bible being of no private interpretation – suggesting the Bible interprets itself – and from the II Peter text goes into how the Word interprets itself. However, reading the CONTEXT of the passage it’s obvious to me that it’s talking about the origin of the Scriptures and not the interpretation of the Scriptures. I don’t know about you – but that shows me the teacher doesn’t know how to use the "keys" to the Word’s interpretation that he's presenting. Incompetence! I guess his version of making it his own was to plagiarize Bullinger’s stuff and slap his name on it.
Not sure what you’re looking for on your last question. There’s always gullible folks. But I think if people applied the critical thinking skills they used in everyday life to PFAL – they’d probably notice a lot more of its intellectual shortcomings.
Not sure what you’re looking for on your last question. There’s always gullible folks. But I think if people applied the critical thinking skills they used in everyday life to PFAL – they’d probably notice a lot more of its intellectual shortcomings.
I believe that you and Deciderator both got in TWI either after I left or as I was leaving, (along with a LOT of others.)
There was a different feel in the air when I took the class. There was sense of naivete mixed with pure spiritual excitement. It was as if a bunch of us kids with wide-eyed wonder said, "Oh my gosh! We finally found what we have been looking for."
We were an instant family - brothers and sisters in Christ. Come he!! or high water we were going to stand together.
In my innocence and enthusiam, I mistakenly transferred my love for God to a ministry. While I understand that what you say is true - I am still loathe to use the words of VPW to define any part of my life.
I'm at work. It's a slow day so I get to use the computer a bit while I wait, but that might explain my choppy manner of writing right now. I'll just wait to finish this thought.
I was told only the BOT were members and I always thought of it as fellowshipping with them, even when I ran a twig.
I have avoided TWI because I believe it is vital for God's people to emain focussed on the Word.
People come and go, but the Word of God liveth and abideth forever!
I remember, right after I informed the leadership of my departure, I went to another dear and close friend who was also a leader to let her know of my intentions. During our talk I brought up LCM's announcement that he was going to re-do the PFAL class. I told her of something I saw in his demeanor that raised a red flag in my mind -- initially he was very hesitant to make his announcement but, right after the audience stood up and gave him a standing ovation his whole mood changed to cockiness. Iow -- he didn't know how his announcement would be received but once the crowd cheered him, his whole demeanor changed to "I'm going to do this whether you like it or not!" Pride goeth before a fall. Anyways, when I pointed this out to my dear friend she asked me: "Larry, why don't I see what you're seeing?" At the time all I can think to say was: "Maybe it's not time for you to see it."
The very first time I ever heard LCM teach, I went to HQ and he was doing the "do not be ignorant" series. I disliked him immediately and intensely. Again, another case of I should have listened to that still small voice. Over time I just sort of got used to him.
BTW, his classes were terrible!!! I took all of his WAP classes and both of his advanced classes, along with the believers family class. Oh yeah, and rise and expansion. They sucked. There were some interesting tid bits here and there, but most of it was him stroking his own ego.
I was told only the BOT were members and I always thought of it as fellowshipping with them, even when I ran a twig.
I have avoided TWI because I believe it is vital for God's people to emain focussed on the Word.
People come and go, but the Word of God liveth and abideth forever!
Love ya, dooj
When I was a novice twig leader in 1972, I once opened a twig meeting by stating that we were "affiliated" with the Way ministry. My branch leader, who was present at the meeting, later chastised me and said, "We are not "affiliated" with the Way------We "ARE" the Way.
Fast foreword to 1976.
I innocently asked the Limb leader why we did not keep a "membership list".
(This was during a work detail that involved physically destroying the mimeograph address plates for the state newsletter.)
"Because", he said, " We are not an organization you can just casually join, we are members of a spiritual body."
(above quote was paraphrased.)
Not trying to figure it out, just telling you what happened.
When I was a novice twig leader in 1972, I once opened a twig meeting by stating that we were "affiliated" with the Way ministry. My branch leader, who was present at the meeting, later chastised me and said, "We are not "affiliated" with the Way------We "ARE" the Way.
Fast foreword to 1976.
I innocently asked the Limb leader why we did not keep a "membership list".
(This was during a work detail that involved physically destroying the mimeograph address plates for the state newsletter.)
"Because", he said, " We are not an organization you can just casually join, we are members of a spiritual body."
(above quote was paraphrased.)
Not trying to figure it out, just telling you what happened.
That's odd. Not only was a twig coordinator but a branch as well and if I recall correctly we had to document who abundantly shared for IRS purposes. Of course it later evolved into a hunting affair to determine who was abundant sharing and who wasn't.
Larry, earlier you asked me about God leading people to TWI, if I could believe that about my situation could I believe it about others.
I have to say, the one place where I still continually struggle with this - where things till don't quite gel for me is the notion that God would lead someone to TWI and then leave them there to be raped, sexually assaulted, physically abused, etc. etc.
So that is a conflict I still struggle with.
I know what happened in my own situation. I know God didn't leave me there, that He told me to get out and I didn't get out. But I don't know about anyone else's situation and I won't speculate on what occured between another individual and God. So that is, for me, still a conflict when it comes to the notion that God lead everyone who was involved with TWI, to TWI.
Larry, earlier you asked me about God leading people to TWI, if I could believe that about my situation could I believe it about others.
I have to say, the one place where I still continually struggle with this - where things till don't quite gel for me is the notion that God would lead someone to TWI and then leave them there to be raped, sexually assaulted, physically abused, etc. etc.
So that is a conflict I still struggle with.
I know what happened in my own situation. I know God didn't leave me there, that He told me to get out and I didn't get out. But I don't know about anyone else's situation and I won't speculate on what occured between another individual and God. So that is, for me, still a conflict when it comes to the notion that God lead everyone who was involved with TWI, to TWI.
Abi, I understand your struggle.
I have a nephew -- a believer -- who while working around a high-power line was severely electrocuted. He lost both of his arms. His skull was annihilated -- has a plate covering the top of his head where his skull use to be. Is paralyzed, etc., etc., etc.
Why did God allow that to happen to a young man (in his early twenties) who was (and still is) passionate about worshipping God?
I don't know. I could say God allowed it to happen because he's become such a great inspiration to his family in his firm belief that God will heal him. The doctors gave him less than a 10% chance to live.
Sometimes I think he would have been better off if he was dead. But, he wants to continue living for the glory of God and I just have to get those thoughts out of my mind.
I'm sorry Abi. I just don't know why God allows bad things to happen to good people. I've heard some good arguments for it but, I still question it.
Yeah, Larry, I hear you and appreciate your honesty in that regard. I've heard some good arguments for it too, just haven't heard any that fully persuade me yet.
Yeah, Larry, I hear you and appreciate your honesty in that regard. I've heard some good arguments for it too, just haven't heard any that fully persuade me yet.
It's a tuff nut to crack, for sure. I just sincerely hope that whoever was harmed (in whatever fashion) receives the healing they need to end their struggle.
'Cid-You have asked an interesting question. I believe that you have asked it in honesty not sarcasm. And I see that some have chosen to answer. I include Skyrider in that category as "answering" your question as well. Sky simply does not necessarily equate "The Word" (as defined or used in PFAL) with the Bible.
Thank you, Eyes.
I don't think this is the place for sarcasm. Indeed the topic is a sensitive one, and respect and good manners are called for in my view.
Sky answered in his fashion and I accept it.
I have noticed that a number of people automatically conflate mention of God's Word with PFAL as if they are Siamese twins or something.
For me, though I learned the phrase "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" first in twig and then in the class, I have kept the phrase but haven't had anything to do with TWI since 1990. It's a distant memory, but the phrase lives on because I believe it is important.
As Larry pointed out quoting the class and Ephesians 6, to bw strong in the Lord, and not VP, the Pope, Billy Graham or Chris Rock.
Though things are long past, decades have gone by, children born and grown, and all the rest, some seem stuck to conflating anything spiritual they hear toTWI and PFAL.
It's as if the more they criticize, the tighter they are tied to what they criticize and they are never able to break free.
But I am going to assume that you are in reality asking about the Bible and you equate the Bible with "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word." So I will answer on that premise.
Yes....and yet a resounding No.
Yes I would turn to the Bible first before any other form of media or personal opinion, but most certainly AFTER God and or His Son Jesus Christ. This would include specific situations as the ones that you have described such as "The return of Christ" or "The New Birth". As thanks to my "few" years in twi I have a few verses tucked into my brain.
I am pleased to be in agreement with you.
To me, the way I find out who God and Jesus Christ are is by going to the Bible.
Of course when I pray during the course of the day I don't need to open the Book.
But I also believe that the Bible is largely two things, it is an imperfect history book and a rule book. I say imperfect because much of the OT was originally orally passed on for many generation prior to being written down. Hence it probably has a bunch of "personal" or inaccurate stuff in it. But the basic principals that God wanted to convey and pass on are still in tact. The NT is not without inherant flaws as well. But all of this stuff is best discussed in the Doctrinal forum in the basement.
This is a point I would prefer to respond to at another time since I am not seeking debate but more of a discussion. I am a stranger to y'all, and y'all to me.
The Bible and the principals therein are the primary compass in my life. Despite this, I have been severely chastised by a very close minded individual here lately for going to "outside" sources besides my Bible to understand the Bible. :blink: Yup! That is exactly what I thought...WTF?
Not knowing the specifics, I can't say much, and would prefer to keep the conversation on point. I will say that on that general point I would have posted in support of you. To understand the Bible, books on manners and customs have been very helpful to me as well as Bullinger's figures of speech book and a number of other books on texts, as well as lexicons, etc.
I try all along, though, to keep my focus on what the Bible is saying to me, and I try to filter out editorial comment from anyone.
BTW...wise choice to listen to either of these women concerning spiritual matters and take what they say very seriously. They are both learned, patient and giving. You can learn a great deal from them.
I see no reason to not take you seriously, either.
You strike me as someone who may very well turn out to be be quite a blessing to me.
Plus I like strong intelligent women anyways..............
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Larry N Moore
Ya know T-bone, you would have saved yourself some time by just saying - "No, because I didn't see ANYTHING good in it." Then I would have to ask: Why should I take your word for it?
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waysider
Yes, there was, indeed, an almost desperate attempt to keep the class set in stone.
Wierwille never said that the class was God-Breathed but he surely did not go out of his way to dissuade those who did.
People watched that class with an almost hypnotic fixation, hoping to catch some glimpse of a deep and mysterious meaning that had been hidden from mankind.
"Did you notice how he raised the pitch of his voice as he expounded on----------------?"(fill in the blank)
"Did you see how he scratched his nose with his RIGHT hand?"
"Did you hear him say 'Sits there like a duck'?":-)
We were encourage to watch the class over and over and told that if we did so, new "gems" would rise to the surface for our discovery each time.
"It's The Word---------" was just a catch phrase, folks.
As such, it has no definitive meaning of its own until you put it in a specific context.
The context that Wierwille set it in was that of allegiance to PFAL, TWI and the business of promoting them.
(ie: It was a sales campaign slogan, at least in the context that he stated it.)
After all, aren't we really talking about what it meant in the context where Wierwille placed it? Hmmm?
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pond
maybe they didn't want to change the class because of the books , if they began a revised version: all those books would be old and unable to be used as well.
most people in twi and i mean MOST didn't know the bible other than what pfal put in their head , independent thought and thinking and study was a bad bad thing.
many didn't discuss bible they spewed pfal and only pfal. it wasn't intellectual thought it was eat and puke the same stuff day in and day out. and most where so over worked or stressed they wouldn't have been able to learn anything on their own without their teacher telling them it was OK.
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Bumpy
Why didn’t VP ever make it to HOLLYWOOD?? I mean, after all the credits for pfal conversions, classes, etc., and with corps support, surely he could have converted at least half our Jewish brethren working in LA !! And in the process remake the original class??
The Way Mag. might have then had a section called...Jews in the News!!
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T-Bone
Agreed. A discriminating shopper will check things out for themselves and comparison shop. Seems like there's a lack of criteria or intellectual standards when most folks talk about PFAL – that's why I said "based on my studies of systematic theology after leaving TWI". In my opinion, PFAL is a sloppy patchwork of systematic theology, philosophies of questionable pedigree and Gnostic-like commentary that is solely based on one deceitful, lewd, deluded, egocentric man…When it comes to Bible study - the PFAL grad is not into "comparison shopping", checking out other viewpoints…other commentaries, doing their own research – or even checking out a "consumer report" [like this thread – listen to all the satisfied customers of PFAL
]….Really, I do agree – I don't think one should just take another's word for it. I like to check things out myself! Of course, now I'm a little more familiar with the Bible, biblical hermeneutics, and research tools – and not very impressed by the Vickster's inept imitation of scholarship.
…by the way, I was responding to your post by saying what I would tell someone about PFAL. Did I say there isn't anything good in PFAL? I said, "I've rejected a substantial amount of the doctrines taught in PFAL." I'd enjoy going over every point in PFAL – to quantify "a substantial amount" but I bet I'd bore everyone here to tears…and this is not the doctrinal forum anyway. I love talking about what I believe
- did so on Another Dan's Spot Survey thread…It seems most PFAL grads have a hard time analyzing something they've mindlessly absorbed for years – and so it's difficult for them to articulate what THEY THINK point by point with PFAL.
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Ham
... and when he breathed, his breath had the remarkable odor of Drambuie..
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Bumpy
Question: How many years were you involved with The Way? I ask, because now that you seemed to discovered so many flaws, how long did it take? Did you also “mindlessly absorb it all??
As a “discriminating shopper”, based on your “systematic theology after leaving TWI”, are there any pfal highlights which you would convey as a sloppy patchwork...etc., when it comes to Bible study?
In other words, do you think the pfal shopper of today is as “gullible” as when you were shopping??
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Larry N Moore
Yes but, my question was: "Can you share both with someone uninformed?" You've made it abundantly clear why you wouldn't. If I was an "uninformed" observer you wouldn't have help me make an informed decision in the slightest. It was completely one-sided. A one-sided synopsis does not an informed decision make.
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Suda
Deciderator, in response to your post #1090, again, I thought I had answered your question. But let me clairfy.
You ask, if I had questions concerning the Hope of the Return of Jesus Christ, how would I find my answers. Per my statement above,my first source of reference would be the Bible. Before beginning my study quest, I would pray and ask God for guidance in helping me to understand clearly what is written therein. I would also employ research aids, such as Tyndale's The Word Study Concordance and Bullinger's Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, my two favorites to start any study with. I also find it helpful to read what other people's research has unfolded to them and see the "backup" upon which they base their conclusions. And I will discuss it with other people, may even start a thread here in Doctrinal to get input. In evaluating the input of others, my "gold standard" is "does what they say line up with my understanding of what the Bible says? But after all is said is done, I would
, or in this case for myself.So, again, if the Word = the Bible, and nothing but the Bible, then my answer to your question would have to be no. It is the starting and the finishing point, but not the only point of reference.
Suda
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Suda
Great quotes by Larry N. Moore and Doojable, respectively.
From the beginning of my association with twi I took statements such as those (heard many similar things from other believers before taking the class) to heart. That as a Research ministry, twi was dynamic, not static. I always felt encouraged to bring up questions when my study or gut feel, even, contradicted what twi was teaching. The great majority of the time, the questions were encouraged and there was no “VP says it, that settles it” attitude, but rather, “if that what your heart tells you to believe, then stick with it.” When I did run into VP=Truth, I would remind them that it contradicted what he, himself, had said.
Too bad twi didn't stick to this. It was the core reason for the downfall, imo.
Just thought those quotes were worth repeating.
Suda
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bulwinkl
West Virginia "advance" i remember asking about Psalms 148
"Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens."
(Psalms 148:4 KJV)
And receiving the answer I wasn't to know about that It was advanced class stuff.
Asking 4 or 5 ppl. and being rebuffed each time. Finally some1 answered as to the firmament in Genesis and I was blown away!
Question.
If I was inquisitive enuff to ask?
should I have gotten an answer?
BTW this was 4 months after I took PFAL. And yeah LCM was there and featured head dung-heap master.
John
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T-Bone
The onus is really on the uninformed observer – the one wanting to make an informed decision. If they were smart, they wouldn’t just listen to one person’s opinion. And what is the decision they’re needing to make, anyway? Is PFAL everything they claim it is?...I would think a smart uninformed observer would find some helpful things from my response: “I don't think one should just take another's word for it. I like to check things out myself! Of course, now I'm a little more familiar with the Bible, biblical hermeneutics, and research tools – and not very impressed by the Vickster's inept imitation of scholarship.”
To elaborate on the helpful hints in my reply – I would suggest the uninformed observer get familiar with things the class covers: read other translations of the Bible, systematic theologies from various authors, study the field of biblical hermeneutics, have basic knowledge of biblical languages, critical texts….then take PFAL – and apply the same intellectual standards used in all the stuff I just mentioned with the content of PFAL…I did it in reverse order – I took PFAL first – after leaving TWI I checked out these things and found out how slipshod ol’ Vickster was. Besides plagiarizing, making up his own definitions of biblical words, he’d fabricate texts.
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T-Bone
Was with TWI for 12 years. Left in 86 – it’s taken me all those years up until now to discover the flaws – and the list is still growing. But it’s really more of a hobby now – my main thing is enjoying life without TWI’s intellectual ball and chain around my head….And oh yeah, I mindlessly absorbed everything in PFAL.
Oh…there’s a bunch of PFAL slop highlights – I can think of one right off the top – the Vickster talks about the Bible being of no private interpretation – suggesting the Bible interprets itself – and from the II Peter text goes into how the Word interprets itself. However, reading the CONTEXT of the passage it’s obvious to me that it’s talking about the origin of the Scriptures and not the interpretation of the Scriptures. I don’t know about you – but that shows me the teacher doesn’t know how to use the "keys" to the Word’s interpretation that he's presenting. Incompetence! I guess his version of making it his own was to plagiarize Bullinger’s stuff and slap his name on it.
Not sure what you’re looking for on your last question. There’s always gullible folks. But I think if people applied the critical thinking skills they used in everyday life to PFAL – they’d probably notice a lot more of its intellectual shortcomings.
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dmiller
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Deciderator
I was told only the BOT were members and I always thought of it as fellowshipping with them, even when I ran a twig.
I have avoided TWI because I believe it is vital for God's people to emain focussed on the Word.
People come and go, but the Word of God liveth and abideth forever!
Love ya, dooj
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doojable
I'm not sure if I asked the questions you answered - but thanks!
See you around the boards Deciderator. ;)
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Abigail
The very first time I ever heard LCM teach, I went to HQ and he was doing the "do not be ignorant" series. I disliked him immediately and intensely. Again, another case of I should have listened to that still small voice. Over time I just sort of got used to him.
BTW, his classes were terrible!!! I took all of his WAP classes and both of his advanced classes, along with the believers family class. Oh yeah, and rise and expansion. They sucked. There were some interesting tid bits here and there, but most of it was him stroking his own ego.
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waysider
When I was a novice twig leader in 1972, I once opened a twig meeting by stating that we were "affiliated" with the Way ministry. My branch leader, who was present at the meeting, later chastised me and said, "We are not "affiliated" with the Way------We "ARE" the Way.
Fast foreword to 1976.
I innocently asked the Limb leader why we did not keep a "membership list".
(This was during a work detail that involved physically destroying the mimeograph address plates for the state newsletter.)
"Because", he said, " We are not an organization you can just casually join, we are members of a spiritual body."
(above quote was paraphrased.)
Not trying to figure it out, just telling you what happened.
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Larry N Moore
That's odd. Not only was a twig coordinator but a branch as well and if I recall correctly we had to document who abundantly shared for IRS purposes. Of course it later evolved into a hunting affair to determine who was abundant sharing and who wasn't.
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Abigail
Larry, earlier you asked me about God leading people to TWI, if I could believe that about my situation could I believe it about others.
I have to say, the one place where I still continually struggle with this - where things till don't quite gel for me is the notion that God would lead someone to TWI and then leave them there to be raped, sexually assaulted, physically abused, etc. etc.
So that is a conflict I still struggle with.
I know what happened in my own situation. I know God didn't leave me there, that He told me to get out and I didn't get out. But I don't know about anyone else's situation and I won't speculate on what occured between another individual and God. So that is, for me, still a conflict when it comes to the notion that God lead everyone who was involved with TWI, to TWI.
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Larry N Moore
Abi, I understand your struggle.
I have a nephew -- a believer -- who while working around a high-power line was severely electrocuted. He lost both of his arms. His skull was annihilated -- has a plate covering the top of his head where his skull use to be. Is paralyzed, etc., etc., etc.
Why did God allow that to happen to a young man (in his early twenties) who was (and still is) passionate about worshipping God?
I don't know. I could say God allowed it to happen because he's become such a great inspiration to his family in his firm belief that God will heal him. The doctors gave him less than a 10% chance to live.
Sometimes I think he would have been better off if he was dead. But, he wants to continue living for the glory of God and I just have to get those thoughts out of my mind.
I'm sorry Abi. I just don't know why God allows bad things to happen to good people. I've heard some good arguments for it but, I still question it.
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Abigail
Yeah, Larry, I hear you and appreciate your honesty in that regard. I've heard some good arguments for it too, just haven't heard any that fully persuade me yet.
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Larry N Moore
It's a tuff nut to crack, for sure. I just sincerely hope that whoever was harmed (in whatever fashion) receives the healing they need to end their struggle.
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Deciderator
Thank you, Eyes.
I don't think this is the place for sarcasm. Indeed the topic is a sensitive one, and respect and good manners are called for in my view.
Sky answered in his fashion and I accept it.
I have noticed that a number of people automatically conflate mention of God's Word with PFAL as if they are Siamese twins or something.
For me, though I learned the phrase "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" first in twig and then in the class, I have kept the phrase but haven't had anything to do with TWI since 1990. It's a distant memory, but the phrase lives on because I believe it is important.
As Larry pointed out quoting the class and Ephesians 6, to bw strong in the Lord, and not VP, the Pope, Billy Graham or Chris Rock.
Though things are long past, decades have gone by, children born and grown, and all the rest, some seem stuck to conflating anything spiritual they hear toTWI and PFAL.
It's as if the more they criticize, the tighter they are tied to what they criticize and they are never able to break free.
I am pleased to be in agreement with you.To me, the way I find out who God and Jesus Christ are is by going to the Bible.
Of course when I pray during the course of the day I don't need to open the Book.
This is a point I would prefer to respond to at another time since I am not seeking debate but more of a discussion. I am a stranger to y'all, and y'all to me.
Not knowing the specifics, I can't say much, and would prefer to keep the conversation on point. I will say that on that general point I would have posted in support of you. To understand the Bible, books on manners and customs have been very helpful to me as well as Bullinger's figures of speech book and a number of other books on texts, as well as lexicons, etc.I try all along, though, to keep my focus on what the Bible is saying to me, and I try to filter out editorial comment from anyone.
I see no reason to not take you seriously, either.
You strike me as someone who may very well turn out to be be quite a blessing to me.
Plus I like strong intelligent women anyways..............
.
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