Thank you. I'm going to clarify this one last point - but only because I need to do so for my own peace of mind.
I have a relationship with God and His Son. I had no relationship with VPW, other than a few chance meetings while I was in residence. I wasn't abused by him, but I witnessed not only the damage he inflicted, but the sick and perverted legacy he passed on to many of those he ordained.
I was looking for a deeper relationship with God. I found it - but that's an entirely different story for another thread.
Regardless, I refuse to define my life and my approach to God via the words of a man who wrapped himself up in the cloak of a minister by day and swam in a bottle of Drambuie by night, while he plotted against many of my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Some questions can't be answered with a simple "yes" or "no". One who sees the issues of a particular question in black or white terms might believe so, another who views the same issue in shades of grey would want to clarify terms before answering. A wordy, roundabout response is not necessarily a non-answer.
Thank you. I'm going to clarify this one last point - but only because I need to do so for my own peace of mind.
I have a relationship with God and His Son. I had no relationship with VPW, other than a few chance meetings while I was in residence. I wasn't abused by him, but I witnessed not only the damage he inflicted, but the sick and perverted legacy he passed on to many of those he ordained.
I was looking for a deeper relationship with God. I found it - but that's an entirely different story for another thread.
Regardless, I refuse to define my life and my approach to God via the words of a man who wrapped himself up in the cloak of a minister by day and swam in a bottle of Drambuie by night, while he plotted against many of my brothers and sisters in Christ.
I'll shut up now.
dooj, I'm sorry if I've offended you. Perhaps if I would of composed my response (to the brief list of beliefs you mentioned) in the form of questions it wouldn't have come across as being argumentative.
One of things VP said in PFAL was: "Ephesians advises in chapter 6, "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord . . ." It does not tell us to be strong in what a theologian may say or in what a Bible teacher may say. If the theologian says what The Word says, if the teacher says what The Word says, then you have to be strong in what they say because of The Word, not because of the men." When he said this I took it to mean that we weren't to be "strong" even in what he said unless what he said was an accurate interpretation. Even if it's true that VP did all the things he's accused of it doesn't negate what the Word says and if he said what the Word said then we should be strong in what he said.
If I learned anything from PFAL that I want to hold onto it is that it doesn't matter what some theologian or what VPW says -- what matters is -- are they saying what the Word says and if in good conscience I believe they are then I should be "strong" in that.
Now, get yourself off to work before you're docked some pay. :) And go in peace.
I believe that you and Deciderator both got in TWI either after I left or as I was leaving, (along with a LOT of others.)
There was a different feel in the air when I took the class. There was sense of naivete mixed with pure spiritual excitement. It was as if a bunch of us kids with wide-eyed wonder said, "Oh my gosh! We finally found what we have been looking for."
We were an instant family - brothers and sisters in Christ. Come he!! or high water we were going to stand together.
In my innocence and enthusiam, I mistakenly transferred my love for God to a ministry. While I understand that what you say is true - I am still loathe to use the words of VPW to define any part of my life.
I'm at work. It's a slow day so I get to use the computer a bit while I wait, but that might explain my choppy manner of writing right now. I'll just wait to finish this thought.
Nonetheless, I wouldn't want to take it for granted.
I believe that you and Deciderator both got in TWI either after I left or as I was leaving, (along with a LOT of others.)
I don't know about Deciderator but I was introduced to TWI in 1972 and took PFAL in 1973.
There was a different feel in the air when I took the class. There was sense of naivete mixed with pure spiritual excitement. It was as if a bunch of us kids with wide-eyed wonder said, "Oh my gosh! We finally found what we have been looking for."
Yes, "things" were a lot different during my early years with TWI. After awhile -- it became too "churchy" for me.
We were an instant family - brothers and sisters in Christ. Come he!! or high water we were going to stand together.
I still have (as I'm sure you do) fond memories of my brothers and sisters in Christ.
In my innocence and enthusiam, I mistakenly transferred my love for God to a ministry. While I understand that what you say is true - I am still loathe to use the words of VPW to define any part of my life.
I've seen that since my early years of involvement. I remember people saying something along the line of: "You can't separate the ministry from the Word." Even though I didn't say so in response I never agreed with that sentiment because it was contrary to what the Word said.
I'm at work. It's a slow day so I get to use the computer a bit while I wait, but that might explain my choppy manner of writing right now. I'll just wait to finish this thought.
Work, work, and nothing but work makes a . . . . hmm -- How did the rest of that saying go? :)
'Cid-You have asked an interesting question. I believe that you have asked it in honesty not sarcasm. And I see that some have chosen to answer. I include Skyrider in that category as "answering" your question as well. Sky simply does not necessarily equate "The Word" (as defined or used in PFAL) with the Bible.
But I am going to assume that you are in reality asking about the Bible and you equate the Bible with "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word." So I will answer on that premise.
Yes....and yet a resounding No.
Yes I would turn to the Bible first before any other form of media or personal opinion, but most certainly AFTER God and or His Son Jesus Christ. This would include specific situations as the ones that you have described such as "The return of Christ" or "The New Birth". As thanks to my "few" years in twi I have a few verses tucked into my brain.
But I also believe that the Bible is largely two things, it is an imperfect history book and a rule book. I say imperfect because much of the OT was originally orally passed on for many generation prior to being written down. Hence it probably has a bunch of "personal" or inaccurate stuff in it. But the basic principals that God wanted to convey and pass on are still in tact. The NT is not without inherant flaws as well. But all of this stuff is best discussed in the Doctrinal forum in the basement.
I would not turn to my Bible first if I wanted to say, restore an old frame and picture. I would instead turn to my good friend who is a master at this stuff and get competent and friendly advice.
The Bible and the principals therein are the primary compass in my life. Despite this, I have been severely chastised by a very close minded individual here lately for going to "outside" sources besides my Bible to understand the Bible. :blink: Yup! That is exactly what I thought...WTF?
Indeed, on spiritual matters I would take what you have to say very seriously.
Abigail, I'm sorry, I didn't know you were not a Chjristian so my question was inappropriate.
Please delete the part about being born again and substuitute another spiritual subject of interest.
BTW...wise choice to listen to either of these women concerning spiritual matters and take what they say very seriously. They are both learned, patient and giving. You can learn a great deal from them.
Ok, now having found that the chum is devoid of any tasty squirrel chunks (probably because Dooj was here first) and the water has diluted the gravy, the shark is going to find breakfast elsewhere. Hmmm...Is Rascal serving up bisquits and gravy at the cafe?
Yikes! Look out everybody -- a she-shark is in our midst! :)
Ya know what -- upon further examination I can see where you're a cuddly dolphin instead of a shark. I don't know why I thought otherwise. I must have been looking at you from the wrong angle. Yea, that must have been it! (You believe me, don't ya?)
Abi, if this is true then couldn't you say that God led people to TWI because that's where they needed to be at the time?
Yes, I could say that. But I won't say that categorically about everyone who was ever involved with TWI. I think each person has to decide for themselves if that was where God wanted them to be, or if they ignored that still small voice that said it wasn't the place for them.
For myself, yes I think God led me to TWI and my first few years with TWI were years of great healing and growth. IF I had listened to that still small voice and left when it told me to, I probably would have walked away unscathed and continued to move forward. Instead, I allowed fear and outside pressures to convince me to stay for about 5 - 6 years longer than I should have. I paid a heavy price for those additional years. While the healing I received in the early years remained, I was left with new things that took many years to heal from.
Yikes! Look out everybody -- a she-shark is in our midst! :)
Ya know what -- upon further examination I can see where you're a cuddly dolphin instead of a shark. I don't know why I thought otherwise. I must have been looking at you from the wrong angle. Yea, that must have been it! (You believe me, don't ya?)
Of course...you must have seen me when I was just smiling....
Yes, I could say that. But I won't say that categorically about everyone who was ever involved with TWI. I think each person has to decide for themselves if that was where God wanted them to be, or if they ignored that still small voice that said it wasn't the place for them.
Well, then if God led even some people to TWI wouldn't that make it an avenue God uses to lead them to Himself? And if so then who am I to tell people that they shouldn't go there?
For myself, yes I think God led me to TWI and my first few years with TWI were years of great healing and growth. IF I had listened to that still small voice and left when it told me to, I probably would have walked away unscathed and continued to move forward. Instead, I allowed fear and outside pressures to convince me to stay for about 5 - 6 years longer than I should have. I paid a heavy price for those additional years. While the healing I received in the early years remained, I was left with new things that took many years to heal from.
Years ago, when I was contemplating leaving TWI I had asked God why He would lead me to a ministry that had become so screwed up. Listening to that "still small voice" the response was: "I got your attention, didn't I?"
Well, then if God led even some people to TWI wouldn't that make it an avenue God uses to lead them to Himself? And if so then who am I to tell people that they shouldn't go there?
Years ago, when I was contemplating leaving TWI I had asked God why He would lead me to a ministry that had become so screwed up. Listening to that "still small voice" the response was: "I got your attention, didn't I?"
Again, I think you would have to decide that within yourself. If someone asked me about TWI, I would tell them what I know and believe. Ultimately I do not have the power to prevent someone from getting involved with TWI. I do have the power to help them make a more informed decision, but in the end the decision is theirs to make.
There is a woman who I became friends with in my early days of TWI. We became very close and even though she now lives several hours away from me, we have kept in contact throughout the years. During those years there was a time when she had left, and I had not yet left - we still kept in touch. Then there were years when we were both out, we still kept in contact. The last time I spoke with her, she had gotten involved with TWI again. I have no intention of cutting off my contact with her. I have no say in what she will chose to do, but my position is that I would remain friends with her regardless of her opinion of TWI and regardless of her involvement with TWI.
Well, then if God led even some people to TWI wouldn't that make it an avenue God uses to lead them to Himself? And if so then who am I to tell people that they shouldn't go there?
Ok I know that I am opening a can of worms here (and "no" sharks dont eat worms..we use 'em for bait), But the idea at least as I see it isn't to tell somebody "dont go there". Rather to tell them "if you go there you should know this first, so you can make a more informed decision."
I get your point...God led many of us to twi. But as Abi said, maybe we should have listened when He said "Get out".
Years ago, when I was contemplating leaving TWI I had asked God why He would lead me to a ministry that had become so screwed up. Listening to that "still small voice" the response was: "I got your attention, didn't I?"
This is wonderful! It is the perfect "individual" testamony of how God worked in an "individuals" life. And it is a beautiful thing. God spoke to you in this manner, and it worked because He did get your attention (I assume of course). This is/was not the case for everyone.
*Dooj starts frantically chopping up squirrel sausage..*
I
would not turn to my Bible first if I wanted to say, restore an old frame and picture. I would instead turn to my good friend who is a master at this stuff and get competent and friendly advice.
The Bible and the principals therein are the primary compass in my life. Despite this, I have been severely chastised by a very close minded individual here lately for going to "outside" sources besides my Bible to understand the Bible. :blink: Yup! That is exactly what I thought...WTF?
Ditto on the :blink:
BTW...wise choice to listen to either of these women concerning spiritual matters and take what they say very seriously. They are both learned, patient and giving. You can learn a great deal from them.
"Biscuits 101" will be held in the Kitchen forum...
Ok, now having found that the chum is devoid of any tasty squirrel chunks (probably because Dooj was here first) and the water has diluted the gravy, the shark is going to find breakfast elsewhere. Hmmm...Is Rascal serving up bisquits and gravy at the cafe?
Hey! I just cook it and serve it. It's not my fault that you got here two hours later than everyone else...;)
There is a woman who I became friends with in my early days of TWI. We became very close and even though she now lives several hours away from me, we have kept in contact throughout the years. During those years there was a time when she had left, and I had not yet left - we still kept in touch. Then there were years when we were both out, we still kept in contact. The last time I spoke with her, she had gotten involved with TWI again. I have no intention of cutting off my contact with her. I have no say in what she will chose to do, but my position is that I would remain friends with her regardless of her opinion of TWI and regardless of her involvement with TWI.
I see two things here. First -- despite the teaching that you should "mark and avoid" those who have left TWI you followed your own heart. Second -- You're leaving open the possibility that your friend -- despite her return to TWI -- will follow her own heart and keep in contact with you. In the first incident -- you obviously weren't brainwashed. In the second case -- if your friend stays in contact with you -- then she obviously isn't brainwashed either. Can you explain where the notion that we were all brainwashed comes from then?
Rather to tell them "if you go there you should know this first, so you can make a more informed decision."
I tend to think a "more informed decision" would include telling them not only the bad stuff but the good as well. Can you share both with someone uninformed?
People are basically creatures of habit. Here in the South, you often see families that have been members of the same church for generations. If something happens that angers them, the first thing you're likely to hear is, (My great-grandfather came to this Church when it was first started." To which, I now reply, "SO?"
I believe that God used TWI as a tool for many of us to get closer to Him. BUT - even though many, many of us wanted to have a closer relationship with Him, and we talked about "all nine, all the time," when the time came to actually listen to that still small voice and get out, we stayed. WHY? The answers are varied. Some never bothered to ask if they should leave because it was "their ministry." Others kept shooing away that Godly admonishment and told themselves to "just renew their minds." I can go on and on - but you get the picture.
My opinion is that if PFAL had been treated like a class instead of the basis for a ministry, things would have gone a lot better for many of us.
I see two things here. First -- despite the teaching that you should "mark and avoid" those who have left TWI you followed your own heart. Second -- You're leaving open the possibility that your friend -- despite her return to TWI -- will follow her own heart and keep in contact with you. In the first incident -- you obviously weren't brainwashed. In the second case -- if your friend stays in contact with you -- then she obviously isn't brainwashed either. Can you explain where the notion that we were all brainwashed comes from then?
I think you have to start by defining your term. Some would use the term rather loosely as a way to emphasize a point. I think you also have to consider the time-frame when an individual was involved with TWI. There were times when things were fairly loose and people were fairly free to come and go, to participate or not as they pleased. Then there were times when TWI exerted, or at least attempted to, great control over the individuals' lives.
For myself, I wouldn't say we were brainwashed, in the strict sense of the word. I would say we were very strongly influenced using a lot of peer pressure and fear tactics. "If you leave the adversary will wipe you out", "If you leave you will lose all your friends and family", "there is no other place to go", "If you leave you will be outside the household and lose God's hedge of protection". Those are a few that come to mind immediately.
I knew in no uncertain terms why my friend left TWI when she did. Not for one second did I believe she left God. In addition, although we did remain friends, there was a period of time (six months maybe? I don't know) when I did lose touch with her and another good friend as well. Not so much because I believed they were posessed or outside of God, but because my (then) husband forbade me from being in contact with them. It was a very very dark and depressing time-period in my life. But during that time, I went back to LCM's tapes on being unequally yoked and I spent a lot of time studying those verses on my own. I concluded LCM's teachings were wrong and that for me was the true begninning of the end for my tenure with TWI. It was about another six months before I actually left, but that time of study helped me have the strength to do it.
And despite recognizing that I thought some of the teachings were wrong, leaving TWI was a terrifying thing for me to do. I figured (rightly so as it turned out) it would be the end of my marriage and I had two baby boys to care for. But the fear went deeper than that - there was a deep seated question of "what if they are right and I am wrong?"
I had panic attacks for the first 8 - 12 months after I was out. I remember one occassion, when I traveled with my two young boys to go visit my friend who I mentioned before. My husband told me I couldn't go - that I was going without his "blessing" and therefore it was very likely the adversary would kill me and the kids on the drive there or back. I went anyway, I had to find out who was right. But it was one of the most terrifying moments in my life, because I just wasn't sure we would make it home alive.
Obviously, we did, and that too was very revealing and healing.
So all of that is, again, my roundabout way of saying no, perhaps we weren't brainwashed in the strictest sense. But there was a very large amount of peer pressure and fear used to keep us "in".
I tend to think a "more informed decision" would include telling them not only the bad stuff but the good as well. Can you share both with someone uninformed?
Yes I could, and have. There are times when I am asked by other Christians what "The Way" was like, more specifically what it was like being in a cult. I share both the good and bad. But all from my own personal perspective as I cannot speak for others. I share what I know and what I believe to be true. And yes that includes the "indiscretions" of vp and all the horrors associated with that. Like Dooj I try not to associate the man with my life at all. I never followed him but I did follow the ministry. In many ways they cannot be seperated. But had I known then what I know today about the man, I never would have stayed. In that light I tell others.
I tend to think a "more informed decision" would include telling them not only the bad stuff but the good as well. Can you share both with someone uninformed?
Sure I can. I can tell them I met some very wonderful and loving people. I can tell them that we had a fantastic time studying the Bible and hanging out together. I can tell them I learned a great deal about how to live a clean (as in drug and alcohol free) and good life.
I can tell them there was a class called PFAL (that is no longer used) that I think had some errors in it, but also had some kinda interesting stuff as well.
That is the good stuff that comes to the top of my mind. I think you are already aware of some of the bad stuff, so I don't feel a need to counter the good with the bad here. :)
I think you have to start by defining your term. Some would use the term rather loosely as a way to emphasize a point. I think you also have to consider the time-frame when an individual was involved with TWI. There were times when things were fairly loose and people were fairly free to come and go, to participate or not as they pleased. Then there were times when TWI exerted, or at least attempted to, great control over the individuals' lives.
For myself, I wouldn't say we were brainwashed, in the strict sense of the word. I would say we were very strongly influenced using a lot of peer pressure and fear tactics. "If you leave the adversary will wipe you out", "If you leave you will lose all your friends and family", "there is no other place to go", "If you leave you will be outside the household and lose God's hedge of protection". Those are a few that come to mind immediately.
I knew in no uncertain terms why my friend left TWI when she did. Not for one second did I believe she left God. In addition, although we did remain friends, there was a period of time (six months maybe? I don't know) when I did lose touch with her and another good friend as well. Not so much because I believed they were posessed or outside of God, but because my (then) husband forbade me from being in contact with them. It was a very very dark and depressing time-period in my life. But during that time, I went back to LCM's tapes on being unequally yoked and I spent a lot of time studying those verses on my own. I concluded LCM's teachings were wrong and that for me was the true begninning of the end for my tenure with TWI. It was about another six months before I actually left, but that time of study helped me have the strength to do it.
And despite recognizing that I thought some of the teachings were wrong, leaving TWI was a terrifying thing for me to do. I figured (rightly so as it turned out) it would be the end of my marriage and I had two baby boys to care for. But the fear went deeper than that - there was a deep seated question of "what if they are right and I am wrong?"
I had panic attacks for the first 8 - 12 months after I was out. I remember one occassion, when I traveled with my two young boys to go visit my friend who I mentioned before. My husband told me I couldn't go - that I was going without his "blessing" and therefore it was very likely the adversary would kill me and the kids on the drive there or back. I went anyway, I had to find out who was right. But it was one of the most terrifying moments in my life, because I just wasn't sure we would make it home alive.
Obviously, we did, and that too was very revealing and healing.
So all of that is, again, my roundabout way of saying no, perhaps we weren't brainwashed in the strictest sense. But there was a very large amount of peer pressure and fear used to keep us "in".
I remember, right after I informed the leadership of my departure, I went to another dear and close friend who was also a leader to let her know of my intentions. During our talk I brought up LCM's announcement that he was going to re-do the PFAL class. I told her of something I saw in his demeanor that raised a red flag in my mind -- initially he was very hesitant to make his announcement but, right after the audience stood up and gave him a standing ovation his whole mood changed to cockiness. Iow -- he didn't know how his announcement would be received but once the crowd cheered him, his whole demeanor changed to "I'm going to do this whether you like it or not!" Pride goeth before a fall. Anyways, when I pointed this out to my dear friend she asked me: "Larry, why don't I see what you're seeing?" At the time all I can think to say was: "Maybe it's not time for you to see it."
The funny thing is that VPW said himself that the class would one day need to be re-taught. I assumed his thinking was that as the culture changed, the class would also have to change. I also thought he implied that the class was the best that he knew at that time and as more of the Word was understood, the errors would need to be corrected.
This proved to be a wrong assumption on my part. <_<
The funny thing is that VPW said himself that the class would one day need to be re-taught. I assumed his thinking was that as the culture changed, the class would also have to change. I also thought he implied that the class was the best that he knew at that time and as more of the Word was understood, the errors would need to be corrected.
This proved to be a wrong assumption on my part. <_<
I wouldn't know. I never sat through the "new and improved version" of PFAL. I didn't think the class should never be re-done. And I seem to recall VP mentioning that it should be. Without actually sitting through the new class I'm unable to say -- it failed at its objective.
Actually, I was referring to something else. I saw a tenacious, almost desparate to keep the class set in stone. It was almost as if the class had been breathed out by God Himself...
I won't finish that statement. I feel the wagons circling already...
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
doojable
Larry and Deciderator,
Thank you. I'm going to clarify this one last point - but only because I need to do so for my own peace of mind.
I have a relationship with God and His Son. I had no relationship with VPW, other than a few chance meetings while I was in residence. I wasn't abused by him, but I witnessed not only the damage he inflicted, but the sick and perverted legacy he passed on to many of those he ordained.
I was looking for a deeper relationship with God. I found it - but that's an entirely different story for another thread.
Regardless, I refuse to define my life and my approach to God via the words of a man who wrapped himself up in the cloak of a minister by day and swam in a bottle of Drambuie by night, while he plotted against many of my brothers and sisters in Christ.
I'll shut up now.
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Oakspear
Some questions can't be answered with a simple "yes" or "no". One who sees the issues of a particular question in black or white terms might believe so, another who views the same issue in shades of grey would want to clarify terms before answering. A wordy, roundabout response is not necessarily a non-answer.
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Larry N Moore
dooj, I'm sorry if I've offended you. Perhaps if I would of composed my response (to the brief list of beliefs you mentioned) in the form of questions it wouldn't have come across as being argumentative.
One of things VP said in PFAL was: "Ephesians advises in chapter 6, "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord . . ." It does not tell us to be strong in what a theologian may say or in what a Bible teacher may say. If the theologian says what The Word says, if the teacher says what The Word says, then you have to be strong in what they say because of The Word, not because of the men." When he said this I took it to mean that we weren't to be "strong" even in what he said unless what he said was an accurate interpretation. Even if it's true that VP did all the things he's accused of it doesn't negate what the Word says and if he said what the Word said then we should be strong in what he said.
If I learned anything from PFAL that I want to hold onto it is that it doesn't matter what some theologian or what VPW says -- what matters is -- are they saying what the Word says and if in good conscience I believe they are then I should be "strong" in that.
Now, get yourself off to work before you're docked some pay. :) And go in peace.
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doojable
Larry, I'm not easily offended.;)
I believe that you and Deciderator both got in TWI either after I left or as I was leaving, (along with a LOT of others.)
There was a different feel in the air when I took the class. There was sense of naivete mixed with pure spiritual excitement. It was as if a bunch of us kids with wide-eyed wonder said, "Oh my gosh! We finally found what we have been looking for."
We were an instant family - brothers and sisters in Christ. Come he!! or high water we were going to stand together.
In my innocence and enthusiam, I mistakenly transferred my love for God to a ministry. While I understand that what you say is true - I am still loathe to use the words of VPW to define any part of my life.
I'm at work. It's a slow day so I get to use the computer a bit while I wait, but that might explain my choppy manner of writing right now. I'll just wait to finish this thought.
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Larry N Moore
Nonetheless, I wouldn't want to take it for granted.
I don't know about Deciderator but I was introduced to TWI in 1972 and took PFAL in 1973.Yes, "things" were a lot different during my early years with TWI. After awhile -- it became too "churchy" for me.
I still have (as I'm sure you do) fond memories of my brothers and sisters in Christ.I've seen that since my early years of involvement. I remember people saying something along the line of: "You can't separate the ministry from the Word." Even though I didn't say so in response I never agreed with that sentiment because it was contrary to what the Word said.
Work, work, and nothing but work makes a . . . . hmm -- How did the rest of that saying go? :)
Enjoy this day, my dear!
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Eyesopen
Well, well, well....do I see chum in the water?
'Cid-You have asked an interesting question. I believe that you have asked it in honesty not sarcasm. And I see that some have chosen to answer. I include Skyrider in that category as "answering" your question as well. Sky simply does not necessarily equate "The Word" (as defined or used in PFAL) with the Bible.
But I am going to assume that you are in reality asking about the Bible and you equate the Bible with "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word." So I will answer on that premise.
Yes....and yet a resounding No.
Yes I would turn to the Bible first before any other form of media or personal opinion, but most certainly AFTER God and or His Son Jesus Christ. This would include specific situations as the ones that you have described such as "The return of Christ" or "The New Birth". As thanks to my "few" years in twi I have a few verses tucked into my brain.
But I also believe that the Bible is largely two things, it is an imperfect history book and a rule book. I say imperfect because much of the OT was originally orally passed on for many generation prior to being written down. Hence it probably has a bunch of "personal" or inaccurate stuff in it. But the basic principals that God wanted to convey and pass on are still in tact. The NT is not without inherant flaws as well. But all of this stuff is best discussed in the Doctrinal forum in the basement.
I would not turn to my Bible first if I wanted to say, restore an old frame and picture. I would instead turn to my good friend who is a master at this stuff and get competent and friendly advice.
The Bible and the principals therein are the primary compass in my life. Despite this, I have been severely chastised by a very close minded individual here lately for going to "outside" sources besides my Bible to understand the Bible. :blink: Yup! That is exactly what I thought...WTF?
BTW...wise choice to listen to either of these women concerning spiritual matters and take what they say very seriously. They are both learned, patient and giving. You can learn a great deal from them.
Ok, now having found that the chum is devoid of any tasty squirrel chunks (probably because Dooj was here first) and the water has diluted the gravy, the shark is going to find breakfast elsewhere. Hmmm...Is Rascal serving up bisquits and gravy at the cafe?
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Larry N Moore
Yikes! Look out everybody -- a she-shark is in our midst! :)
Ya know what -- upon further examination I can see where you're a cuddly dolphin instead of a shark. I don't know why I thought otherwise. I must have been looking at you from the wrong angle. Yea, that must have been it! (You believe me, don't ya?)
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Abigail
Yes, I could say that. But I won't say that categorically about everyone who was ever involved with TWI. I think each person has to decide for themselves if that was where God wanted them to be, or if they ignored that still small voice that said it wasn't the place for them.
For myself, yes I think God led me to TWI and my first few years with TWI were years of great healing and growth. IF I had listened to that still small voice and left when it told me to, I probably would have walked away unscathed and continued to move forward. Instead, I allowed fear and outside pressures to convince me to stay for about 5 - 6 years longer than I should have. I paid a heavy price for those additional years. While the healing I received in the early years remained, I was left with new things that took many years to heal from.
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Eyesopen
Of course...you must have seen me when I was just smiling....
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Larry N Moore
My, my Grandma. What big teeth you have. ;)
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Larry N Moore
Well, then if God led even some people to TWI wouldn't that make it an avenue God uses to lead them to Himself? And if so then who am I to tell people that they shouldn't go there?
Years ago, when I was contemplating leaving TWI I had asked God why He would lead me to a ministry that had become so screwed up. Listening to that "still small voice" the response was: "I got your attention, didn't I?"
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Abigail
Again, I think you would have to decide that within yourself. If someone asked me about TWI, I would tell them what I know and believe. Ultimately I do not have the power to prevent someone from getting involved with TWI. I do have the power to help them make a more informed decision, but in the end the decision is theirs to make.
There is a woman who I became friends with in my early days of TWI. We became very close and even though she now lives several hours away from me, we have kept in contact throughout the years. During those years there was a time when she had left, and I had not yet left - we still kept in touch. Then there were years when we were both out, we still kept in contact. The last time I spoke with her, she had gotten involved with TWI again. I have no intention of cutting off my contact with her. I have no say in what she will chose to do, but my position is that I would remain friends with her regardless of her opinion of TWI and regardless of her involvement with TWI.
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Eyesopen
Ok I know that I am opening a can of worms here (and "no" sharks dont eat worms..we use 'em for bait), But the idea at least as I see it isn't to tell somebody "dont go there". Rather to tell them "if you go there you should know this first, so you can make a more informed decision."
I get your point...God led many of us to twi. But as Abi said, maybe we should have listened when He said "Get out".
This is wonderful! It is the perfect "individual" testamony of how God worked in an "individuals" life. And it is a beautiful thing. God spoke to you in this manner, and it worked because He did get your attention (I assume of course). This is/was not the case for everyone.
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doojable
*Dooj starts frantically chopping up squirrel sausage..*
I
Ditto on the :blink:
"Biscuits 101" will be held in the Kitchen forum...Hey! I just cook it and serve it. It's not my fault that you got here two hours later than everyone else...;)
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Larry N Moore
I see two things here. First -- despite the teaching that you should "mark and avoid" those who have left TWI you followed your own heart. Second -- You're leaving open the possibility that your friend -- despite her return to TWI -- will follow her own heart and keep in contact with you. In the first incident -- you obviously weren't brainwashed. In the second case -- if your friend stays in contact with you -- then she obviously isn't brainwashed either. Can you explain where the notion that we were all brainwashed comes from then?
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Larry N Moore
I tend to think a "more informed decision" would include telling them not only the bad stuff but the good as well. Can you share both with someone uninformed?
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doojable
People are basically creatures of habit. Here in the South, you often see families that have been members of the same church for generations. If something happens that angers them, the first thing you're likely to hear is, (My great-grandfather came to this Church when it was first started." To which, I now reply, "SO?"
I believe that God used TWI as a tool for many of us to get closer to Him. BUT - even though many, many of us wanted to have a closer relationship with Him, and we talked about "all nine, all the time," when the time came to actually listen to that still small voice and get out, we stayed. WHY? The answers are varied. Some never bothered to ask if they should leave because it was "their ministry." Others kept shooing away that Godly admonishment and told themselves to "just renew their minds." I can go on and on - but you get the picture.
My opinion is that if PFAL had been treated like a class instead of the basis for a ministry, things would have gone a lot better for many of us.
Okay, back to chopping squirrel - dang sharks! ;)
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Abigail
I think you have to start by defining your term. Some would use the term rather loosely as a way to emphasize a point. I think you also have to consider the time-frame when an individual was involved with TWI. There were times when things were fairly loose and people were fairly free to come and go, to participate or not as they pleased. Then there were times when TWI exerted, or at least attempted to, great control over the individuals' lives.
For myself, I wouldn't say we were brainwashed, in the strict sense of the word. I would say we were very strongly influenced using a lot of peer pressure and fear tactics. "If you leave the adversary will wipe you out", "If you leave you will lose all your friends and family", "there is no other place to go", "If you leave you will be outside the household and lose God's hedge of protection". Those are a few that come to mind immediately.
I knew in no uncertain terms why my friend left TWI when she did. Not for one second did I believe she left God. In addition, although we did remain friends, there was a period of time (six months maybe? I don't know) when I did lose touch with her and another good friend as well. Not so much because I believed they were posessed or outside of God, but because my (then) husband forbade me from being in contact with them. It was a very very dark and depressing time-period in my life. But during that time, I went back to LCM's tapes on being unequally yoked and I spent a lot of time studying those verses on my own. I concluded LCM's teachings were wrong and that for me was the true begninning of the end for my tenure with TWI. It was about another six months before I actually left, but that time of study helped me have the strength to do it.
And despite recognizing that I thought some of the teachings were wrong, leaving TWI was a terrifying thing for me to do. I figured (rightly so as it turned out) it would be the end of my marriage and I had two baby boys to care for. But the fear went deeper than that - there was a deep seated question of "what if they are right and I am wrong?"
I had panic attacks for the first 8 - 12 months after I was out. I remember one occassion, when I traveled with my two young boys to go visit my friend who I mentioned before. My husband told me I couldn't go - that I was going without his "blessing" and therefore it was very likely the adversary would kill me and the kids on the drive there or back. I went anyway, I had to find out who was right. But it was one of the most terrifying moments in my life, because I just wasn't sure we would make it home alive.
Obviously, we did, and that too was very revealing and healing.
So all of that is, again, my roundabout way of saying no, perhaps we weren't brainwashed in the strictest sense. But there was a very large amount of peer pressure and fear used to keep us "in".
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Eyesopen
Yes I could, and have. There are times when I am asked by other Christians what "The Way" was like, more specifically what it was like being in a cult. I share both the good and bad. But all from my own personal perspective as I cannot speak for others. I share what I know and what I believe to be true. And yes that includes the "indiscretions" of vp and all the horrors associated with that. Like Dooj I try not to associate the man with my life at all. I never followed him but I did follow the ministry. In many ways they cannot be seperated. But had I known then what I know today about the man, I never would have stayed. In that light I tell others.
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Abigail
Sure I can. I can tell them I met some very wonderful and loving people. I can tell them that we had a fantastic time studying the Bible and hanging out together. I can tell them I learned a great deal about how to live a clean (as in drug and alcohol free) and good life.
I can tell them there was a class called PFAL (that is no longer used) that I think had some errors in it, but also had some kinda interesting stuff as well.
That is the good stuff that comes to the top of my mind. I think you are already aware of some of the bad stuff, so I don't feel a need to counter the good with the bad here. :)
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Larry N Moore
I remember, right after I informed the leadership of my departure, I went to another dear and close friend who was also a leader to let her know of my intentions. During our talk I brought up LCM's announcement that he was going to re-do the PFAL class. I told her of something I saw in his demeanor that raised a red flag in my mind -- initially he was very hesitant to make his announcement but, right after the audience stood up and gave him a standing ovation his whole mood changed to cockiness. Iow -- he didn't know how his announcement would be received but once the crowd cheered him, his whole demeanor changed to "I'm going to do this whether you like it or not!" Pride goeth before a fall. Anyways, when I pointed this out to my dear friend she asked me: "Larry, why don't I see what you're seeing?" At the time all I can think to say was: "Maybe it's not time for you to see it."
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doojable
The funny thing is that VPW said himself that the class would one day need to be re-taught. I assumed his thinking was that as the culture changed, the class would also have to change. I also thought he implied that the class was the best that he knew at that time and as more of the Word was understood, the errors would need to be corrected.
This proved to be a wrong assumption on my part. <_<
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Larry N Moore
I wouldn't know. I never sat through the "new and improved version" of PFAL. I didn't think the class should never be re-done. And I seem to recall VP mentioning that it should be. Without actually sitting through the new class I'm unable to say -- it failed at its objective.
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doojable
Actually, I was referring to something else. I saw a tenacious, almost desparate to keep the class set in stone. It was almost as if the class had been breathed out by God Himself...
I won't finish that statement. I feel the wagons circling already...
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