Deciderator - while I see the point you're making I have to disagree.
On the surface, Skyrider is setting up a straw man argument. That would be true IF he was substituting the phrase "the Word" for "PFAL."
He is not doing this. He is in fact saying (I believe) that to may TWI leaders the two phrases became synonymous.
I don't see how he was avoiding the importance of the Word in his life - but I do see how he is pointing out a "bait and switch" in terminology that happened over time.
Now, I'm by the things you have written, I think that skyrider's time in TWI predates your's by about twenty years - so that may be the reason why he can say this and you not see his meaning.
Deciderator - while I see the point you're making I have to disagree.
On the surface, Skyrider is setting up a straw man argument. That would be true IF he was substituting the phrase "the Word" for "PFAL."
He is not doing this. He is in fact saying (I believe) that to may TWI leaders the two phrases became synonymous.
I don't see how he was avoiding the importance of the Word in his life - but I do see how he is pointing out a "bait and switch" in terminology that happened over time.
Now, I'm by the things you have written, I think that skyrider's time in TWI predates your's by about twenty years - so that may be the reason why he can say this and you not see his meaning.
Earlier in this thread I made the point that "THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD!" was something of value I took from the class and still hold to.
Others, perhaps not skyrider immediately decided to address my point by erecting this same straw man.
While mistaking one thing for the other may have been done by some, it was not by me and I am sure there are others.
The best thing is for skyrider to explain this, sans straw man.
I would like for the gentleman to address my point, namely
In this case, skyrider avoids addressing the concept of having God's Word as his only source for faith and practice.
We can speculate why, but it is better for skyrider to tell us in his own words upon what foundation is his own personal theology (if he has one) based.
(NOTE: Page 5 has not been posted yet, as I felt this one is what was needed tonight )
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, Page 48, Page 5 not yet posted)
The Need for Empathy in Reading Posts
Page 11 starts with Jonny’s response to Excatedra about m’s story.
I read it. Sad story. VP was a very bad man to do things like that. As bad as David for murdering Uriah and shagging hid wife, in my opinion.Too bad "M", or whoever that is didn't have the guts to walk away that first time like my wife did when Craig tried the same s h it on her. I still liked PFAL, and am thankful for having the privilege to have been able to sit through it.
His response really gave me pause to think. In trying to understand where he might be coming from, I made up my own "Jonny Lingo story". Jonny, for purposes of illustration, please indulge me and let me fabricate a story loosely based on some things I think I recall reading in some of your posts. If I mix up some of the facts, please overlook them, as this story is just for illustration, and not intended to be true or factual in any way. If I am remembering correctly, you and your wife are the proud parents of a beautiful daughter who is now serving in the Merchant Marines. She has recently been commissioned and is based on the same ship that you served on when you started with the Merchant Marines (MM for short).
For character development, I have to summarize my impressions of you from” the man you post to be”, as I have never had to pleasure of knowing you outside of the cyber world. You appear to be a real man’s man. A perfect weekend for you would be heading out into the wild with some buddies, tracking bears and killing them for dinner, or fishing for a prized salmon. The fight in landing that fish is more delightful to you than eating that big boy, and eating it is sheer pleasure. In your youth you loved fast cars and faster wimmin. You’re not cocky, but you have solid self-esteem. You’re self confident, and won’t be pushed around. You stick to your guns, and allow no one to grab you by your cajones which, to you, are as big and mighty as Alaskan King Crabs. You have a soft side which few rarely see completely exposed, but it shows through in your manner with people, especially the ladies. But you “ain’t no sissy”, your keep that soft side under control and use it to your advantage, but never let it rule or overpower you. Naw, you got that baby under control.
Now for my “hypothetical facts”, they are complete fabrications fashioned to serve the purposes of my story. Let’s say the name of the ship you served on, and is now “home” to your daughter is the “USS Alaska”, the premiere ship in the fleet, the one every Merchant Marine wants to serve on. It’s where the “action is” because the Captain of that ship has the Commodore’s ear, as all the special projects the MM’s are working on are based here. Serving on this ship provides the best opportunity to learn, to network, to meet the “makers and shakers”, and lay a solid foundation for advancing your career in the MM. While a cadet at the MM Academy, your daughter was taken under the wing of a Lt. Commander working on the “latest and greatest” project of the MM’s. They just clicked together as a team, had developed a great working rapport, he became her mentor. She has great respect for him and trusts him and his judgment. Upon her graduation, he had hand picked her to join his “sea duty” team and come aboard the USS Alaska as his right hand” man” in working out the kinks in this new project and implementing it. And a real plumb is that they would daily access to the Captain as this is his pet project and he wants to be as involved as possible. If all goes well, this is his final stepping stone towards the promotion to Commodore he’s been aspiring too all his life. And retirement age was coming soon, and he wants to go out in style.
You remember the bittersweet day you and your wife saw her off on her first 6 month tour of sea duty. Man, she was so beautiful and striking in that uniform. You can see her now: head held high, grinning from ear to ear brimming with excitement and anticipation, the confidence of “look out world - here I come” beaming from her eyes, stepping surely on her feet, grounded with self confidence and self esteem, as she walked up that gangplank. Once on board she turned and waved, the two of you exchanged that “secret” wink and thumbs up sign you had shared since her early childhood, then she turned around sharply with perfect military precision, and disappeared into the body of the ship, heading to her new work station in the Lt. Commander’s office to help steer the future course of the MM’s. You were so proud, and filled with anticipation for her. Your heart felt like it was bursting with joy.
It seemed like the ensuing 6 months would be the longest in your life, and you looked forward to your reunion. The two of you had always enjoyed talking about your days in the MM’s, how serving on that great ship had helped shape you into a real man. It was the best training ground you could have ever experienced. She regaled in your stories, in fact, it had started the yearning in her heart to grow up to be a MM, just like her dad! You knew she’d come back a woman, no longer your little girl, but an adult now, out on her own and grabbing all the gusto of life. All of her strengths would be more solidified, and she would have worked on overcoming her weaknesses or learning how to compensate for them such that they would not hold her back from becoming all she desired to become. What a day that would be when she returned, sharing all of her excitement with you! You could both share “war stories” of the good times and the hard times you experienced aboard that grand ship and compare notes. How were things different now and what remained the same and was just as she had imagined.
You couldn’t sleep the night before she got home you were so excited. She’d have a two week leave, and lots of that time would be at home with the family. You and your wife were there an hour early, just to make sure you’d be the first faces she saw as she disembarked the ship. You couldn’t wait to see that confident, beautiful “new woman” walk down that gangplank, and share the secret wink and thumbs up. The MM’s were starting to file out now, and you’re both searching the crowds for her, but can’t find her. Well, there’s someone that looks a lot like her, but can’t be her. She’s kinda slumped over, almost running with her head slightly bowed, like she escaping. But lo and behold, that is her! My gosh, she must be sick. She looks a bit disheveled, not the “sharp as a tack” look she always bore. Her eyes have an almost vacant look about them. She sees you, raises her hand with a slight wave, and gives you a quick smile. She races into your arms and gives you a hug like she’ll never let go. You ask her how she’s feeling, is everything all right? She assures you she is, just been really busy tying up the loose ends before the tour was over, hasn’t had a lot of sleep, and not much appetite. But she’s home now, and all will be well. She’ll get the TLC she needs and be able to regroup. Let’s go home now, I can’t wait to be in that sanctuary again. I’ve missed it so, and long for a shower in my bathroom to scrub the sea out of me, a nice long nap in my own comfortable bed, in my own room, where I feel safe and secure.
You and your wife are concerned about her. When she wakes up you ask about the project. Went well, very few hitches. Yeah, looked like the Captain was gonna make Commodore. All the “final” paperwork on the implementation results had to be put in order. In fact, would be her assignment for the next 6 months while on shore duty. He was staying ashore, too, to make sure everything stayed on course and the final product was flawless. Don’t know how he’s ever made it so far. Comes from a well established MM family, so grew up in it. His dad had been grooming him for this while he was still active, made sure he had all the right contacts, was able to secure all the plumb assignments. He reminded her a bit of the “Frank Burns” character on M.A.S.H. She’d admit, he was a bright guy, but he must have gotten all the right breaks to get where he was. And a real weasel. A master at manipulating people, getting them to do all the work, and taking all the glory. And, man what a temper. He knew how to bark orders and get exactly what he wanted. Never took “no” for an answer. Yeah, her mentor, the Lt. Commander was okay, too. In fact, the Captain had put him up for promotion to Commander because of the success of the project. But let’s don’t talk about ship life. I’m so glad to be home and just want to bask in the warmth, comfort and love here. Feel like I’m wrapped in my favorite blanket, safe and secure. I just want to enjoy the respite. Let’s not spoil it by sharing “war stories”. I just want to forget it for a while. My time on board was so intense, I just need a break from it.
After a few days, she’s well rested and fed, and starting to perk back up and resembling her old self. You and your wife share a sigh of relief. Must have been a really hard tour. She’s such a go getter, must have worked herself half to death and not taken care of herself. But that’s our girl! Heck, she’ll probably make Commodore herself one of these days! Bet she’ll even start going out with her friends some now. Has hardly even taken any phone calls since she’s been at home. Well, she’s all rested now. Looks so much better, I’m so glad.
A few nights before her leave comes to an end, you are awakened in the night by horrifying screams emanating from your daughter’s room. You rush in, find her in a fitful stage of sleep, fighting some adversary, repeating “No! No! No!” over and over again, “Stop it you sick bas+ard!” and then the screaming started anew. You sit down beside her and start to shake her awake, while telling her, “It’s only a bad dream. Tell me what’s going on. What has you so terrified?” She starts to wake up, sees you and instinctively lunges towards you with a look like a mad woman in her eyes, knocking you off the bed. She’s trying to claw at you, but you pin her arms down in a forceful body hug, and are talking in a loud, firm voice “Wake up honey. It’s me, it’s your daddy. I’m not going to hurt you. It’s all a bad dream. Please, calm down, tell me what has you so frightened. Who are you so terrified of?” She finally realizes where she is, safely in your arms, at home, in her room. Thank God! Nobody will hurt me here. She bursts into tears and great sobs of grief and it is quite awhile before she is able to speak.
Then she starts to tell you of her nightmare at sea. Yes, she did have the plumb assignment, on the plumb ship, with frequent access to the plumb man, the Captain. They worked side-by-side a lot, mostly in the late afternoon and early evening, often over dinner in his cabin. He had requested she give him the daily wrap up reports instead of the Lt. Commander, and while he didn’t like it, he couldn’t buck to boss. He had the morning briefings and planning sessions. Like she’s told you, she disliked the Captain, actually from the beginning. He just gave her the creeps. And something about him reminded her of that cowardly, wimpy, whiney “Frank Burns”, hiding behind false bravado and loving the power of his rank, and lauding it over others. But he was the boss, she had to obey his commands. So she was always well prepared for the meetings, ready to go over all the information in a succinct manner so that she could minimize the time alone with him. She really didn’t like having dinner in his quarters, just seemed like he was trying to make it a forced, fake intimacy, rather than the business meeting it actually was. He always insisted they enjoy a glass of one of his special wines together over dinner. That was his hobby, fancied himself as a real wine sommelier or something. Well, one night he served her his prize wine. Made a big deal about how rare and expensive it was, but it was appropriate for a celebration. All the bugs had been worked out of their project, and the first day of implementation had gone so smoothly. And it’s success was largely due to her input. Yes, she was a real smart cookie with a bright future ahead of her in the MM’s and he could make sure she made the right contacts, and she’d be his right hand “woman” on the job as they completed this project. And he would make sure she was properly rewarded.
Well, the wine didn’t taste all that great to me, and as we were finishing dinner I started to fill really dizzy and nauseous. I excused myself and went to the restroom, washed my face with cold water, but it didn’t help. I half stumbled out of there, and he supported me and took me over to the couch to lie down. He tried to make me comfortable, and I told him I just wanted to get back to my room. He said, no, I looked really sick and he was going to summon the ship’s doctor to come up there and care for me. Just lay there, and he’d call from his office in the other room and the doctor would be here pronto. Well, I must have passed out, because the next thing I know I wake up naked on the couch with that bas+ard on top of me, forcing himself into me, telling me how good I looked and felt, and how he was initiating me into the world of a successful MM woman. How he was the perfect lover and how lucky I was to be able to be pleasured by him. The idiot was talking to himself, in his own dream world, not even aware that I was beginning to regain consciousness. I started telling him “No! No! No! Stop it you sick bas+ard!.” Then he got angry and physical, and easily overpowered me as I was in a drugged stupor. It was so vile, and horrifying, Dad, I thought it would never be over. When he was finally satisfied, he rolled off of me and asked, “Now wasn’t that grand! Lucky you to be my woman for this tour of duty!” I almost threw up. I was so shocked and confused and enraged. I saw him as a crazed animal. I wouldn’t even acknowledge the words he spoke to me; I just dismissed him and refused to say anything at all. I threw myself together as quickly as possible and headed straight to the Lt. Commander’s quarters and found him there.
I told him what had happened and that I wanted that son-of-a-bi+ch court martialed, stripped of his authority, and buried under the dam* brig. And to my horror, he replied, I guess I should have warned you of his reputation. That is his mo. He sets his eyes on some female officer and promises to pave the way towards a glorious future with the MM’s in exchange for their “company”. Understand he’s good at keeping his promises, too, to keep them in line and “enamored” of him. Understand there’s even competition among some of the female officer’s for his attentions as he has helped the career of quite a few. Though I was a bit concerned by his assigning you the evening wrap-ups, I didn’t think he’d court a newbie, nor force himself on you. But now that you know the score, be wary of him. You’re a big girl now, and you can take care of yourself. The tour is half over. If I were you, I’d let him know in no uncertain terms that you have no desire to be his paramour, avoid him as much as possible, and keep your mouth shut. He has such a huge ego, to be deflected by a beautiful young woman like you will be a real slap in the face. And don’t tell anyone else. I’ll keep your confidence. I’d hate to think what he’d do if he “lost face” with the staff and crew. He can be villainous, you know, and he has all the right contacts. He would try to crush your career, as well as anyone who tried to help you. I’d say it’s not worth the risk. Just suck it up and deal with it the best you can. You are resourceful, bright, and strong. You can handle it. Hey, look on the bright side, you’re a woman and have the right equipment to open doors men don’t have. Use it to your advantage.
I had no where else to turn. I could either suck it up and face it, or jump overboard in the middle of the ocean. I’m no quitter, I’m a fighter. So I was determined not to let that SOB touch me again. Easier said than done. He took every opportunity he could to “loosen” me up when were alone, letting his hand linger just too long, give me a pat on the butt, etc. He raped me, forcefully and cruelly on two more occasions. I finally decided it would be better not to fight him, but to have it more on my terms. I initiated the next encounter, stroked his ego, did whatever it took to please him. I let him know I’d choose a special night every week to do this, to please him, but to build anticipation he could never make any sexual advances towards me. Never. Well the “Frank Burns” wimp in him took the bait, and then I was in control. But I knew I was nothing but a wh*re.
“Why didn’t you tell me?” you ask. She replies, “Why? How could I tell you your daughter prostituted herself? Would that make you proud? I am so ashamed of myself, I feel so dirty, and guilty. What did I do to make him think I was anything less than a professional MM? What vibe did I give off for him to think I wanted to be his paramour. Where did I go wrong? How did I screw up so badly? How did I let myself down? I scorn women who try to sleep their way through life. They are the scum of the earth to me. Yet now I have to accept that is precisely what I have become. How did I shatter my dreams? How did I disappoint myself so wretchedly? And you and mom? How can you ever forgive me?”
And after she’s poured her heart out to your, your reply would be:
NOTE: FABRICATED QUOTE “Sad story. That Commander was a very bad man to do things like that. As bad as David for murdering Uriah and shagging his wife, in my opinion. Too bad you didn't have the guts to walk away that first time when you wanted to go back to your room, like your mother did when one of her bosses tried the same s h it on her. Sorry your first tour of sea duty was such a bummer. I still like the USS Alaska, and am thankful for having the privilege to have served on it during my early days with the Merchant Marines.”
He!! no, Jonny. You’d be more likely to say: Forgive you, honey, for what? You did nothing wrong. This is not your fault. You did nothing to ask for this or deserve this. You are completely innocent! That son-of-a-bi+ch violated you. He is 100% responsible. He took a young Ensign in his charge and abused her for his own pleasure. You had no one to turn to. After I kill that Captain, I’m gonna kill that Lt. Commander for betraying you and putting you in harm’s way. He knew better. He should have made it clear this could happen, so that you could have used that information to make your decision on what assignment to choose. They both abused you. Do NOT blame yourself in any way, shape, or fashion.”
All you posters out there, when you hear stories of sexual abuse, try to put yourself in the shoes of the mother or father of that girl, and not the “arm chair quarterback” critiquing the re-runs of a game. That’s not the time to try and solve the problem, point our what mistakes she made, or the “red” flags she overlooked. Believe me, she has beat herself up more throughly than anyone else will ever be able to do. She’s looked at it from every angle to see where she blew it. She’d criticized and condemned herself over and over again to the point it’s extremely difficult to look at herself in the mirror. That haunted face staring back at her torments and confuses her, and reminds her of what she was once, and lost, and can’t figure out how. Most importantly, she is still blaming herself, internalizing the whole horrid incident. And she feels horribly ashamed and it takes every ounce of courage and then some for her to dump her heart out to you. LET HER DUMP. When she pauses to catch her breath, don’t rush to fill her pauses with chatter. Don’t try to fix it, don’t try to give her advice, don’t try to smooth it over, don’t try to make it less horrifying than it was. When she has the courage to confide in you, let her relive it as fully as she chooses and needs, let her dump it all over the place. Then when she’s finished, enjoy some quiet solitude for a bit, just comforting each other. When she’s ready, she’ll ask "What will I do? How can I regain my old self?" Then build her back up, encourage her, show her the villain’s role and make it distinct from hers. Help her to forgive herself. Get her counseling. And keep loving her through the healing process. Don’t bring the subject up to her to discuss it later, let her take that initiative when she’s ready and not feeling vulnerable. Then is the time to offer advice. And don’t change your image of her. Always remember she is the same wonderful person she always was, and treat her that way. The last thing she needs is your pity. Or worse, your scorn.
And when you read stories, take that same stance and put your empathy and compassion to work. It’s so easy to look at a situation with 20/20 hindsight and pick out the objective errors she made, what she could or should have done differently to avoid the situation. But try to understand what was going on subjectively, how she missed the clues, how she let herself get into a compromising position, or do things against her better judgment. For lack of a better phrase, try to “feel her pain”. If you can do that, then your words concerning such stories here will portray the heartache you can feel for her, and will not come across as judging her. Nothing could hurt her worse than to feel belittled or as if she’s being treated like Chevy Chase treated Jane Curtain on Saturday Night Live newscast “Jane you ignorant slu+”. That will just send her spiraling back down into the depths of condemnation, and will stunt her healing unbelievably.
Just my sermonette for tonight from someone who has been there, and is so grateful for those who comforted her and brought her back to life, and has forgiven those whose “ignorance” of how to treat the aftermath of the destruction hurt her during that time.
Jonny, hope you don’t mind I used you for an example. You have made such good use of stories, and I thought it was a good way to handle what I wanted to communicate. I meant no malice or harm towards you at all.
If I make my next post, it will be what I worked on last night as I was re-reading pages 5-10 of this thread and trying to see it through the poster’s eyes and hear it through the receiver’s ears. It’s long, so don’t know if I’ll make the effort or not. But it would give the background to what I was thinking and why this post struck me the way it did and what inspired the story above. So far I have only read through Jonny’s post on the top of page 11 in this thread. I’ve caught the tail end where it was when I rejoined, but need to read middle to know what it’s all about.
Suda (hoping she’s not boring you all to tears with her musings)
Just read your recent posts here. Feeling a bit testy tonight, are you? Hope it gets better for you.
In your own theology, is it "The Word! The Word! And Nothing but God's Wonderful Matchless Word!"?
Where do you go for Truth regarding your faith and practice?
Here at the GSC you'll find peoples beliefs run the whole gamut. The Christian and Jewish faiths are present, as are Wiccans, atheists, and agnostics, and others, I'm sure. From the posts I've read, those who still consider themselves Christians regard the Bible as the rulebook of that faith. But they are very careful, as you are, to come to conclusions for themselves, and not accept someone else's interpretation or viewpoint without careful consideration.
I know you've been pounded by the reactions of people to your favorite one-liner from the PFAL class. It's been a rude greetings to GSC in many ways, and I'm sorry for that, wish it had unfolded in another way.
But I see a lot of truth in what skyrider posted. The leaders who transfered their alligiance from God to the the twi organization, did substitute the class, The Way Magazine, and other Way publications for the source of study and used it as their first and primary reference for study of the Bible. I met a few of them. Thankfully, most that I was in contact with did not confuse the authority of Way documents, but remained focused on the Bible and God for their spiritual compass. That sounds like the leadership you had during your twi days.
But acknowledge the reality that some had PFAL shoved down their throats, and when something in their study contradicted Way publications they were scorned if they would not dismiss their beliefs as unsound. It happened, and too often. It's a pity. And that's why the institution failed. It became incapable of helping people grow spiritually and learn how to utilize their gifts effectively in His service.
Please, let's not stray from the one point I am making and the question for skyrider and doojable and you too, if you care to chime in.
Given the circumstances of this forum and the experiences of the posters here it is a fair question.
Of course when it comes to theology I respect someone for not sharing their viewpoint.
What we have seen consistently in this thread on this point is a number of people pretending to address the point when in reality they need to change the subject, reinterpret, redefine, or anything other than say whether they endorse the principle of THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD!
I beleve there is nothing wrong with asking those who challenged me or others on the subject to be asked the same question.
I suspect that they too, still hold to that principle, but do not want to admit it.
I mean no disrespect.
Let each speak for him or herself on the question, preferably using simple declarative sentences sans straw men.
Sounds like you are calling my name......wanting to meet me at HIGH NOON with my six-shooter strapped and loaded and ready for the challenge.
(*skyrider puts down his whiskey, spits on the floor and wipes his mouth with his sleeve........saying "Why I've shot more out-laws and no-gooders than you'll ever know.".....as he turns back to his whiskey)
Reminiscent of the immortal words of victor paul wierwille......."Why I've forgot more Word than that feller will ever know."" -- referring to the theologian on the other side of the English Channel.
Deciderator.....if you want to suspend and hold that cliche "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word" -- I believe that one of the first things one has to do is qualify many factors. IMO, it cannot stand alone as a suscinct cliche......the ambiguity of it all is insurmountable. Starting with......"What is The Word"
However one chooses to APPROACH the concept of "The Word" is the STARTING POINT of conflicting viewpoints. For example, you and I might agree that when God said, "Let there be light" as recorded in Genesis.... that is "The Word," the God-breathed Word. I agree.
In pfal, as wierwille starts down this road of biblical research......he qualifies many things. First things first, and he hits on verses like holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy spirit and no private interpretation. Of course, he notes to the students that there are NO ORIGINALS LEFT IN EXISTENCE. But moving on, he clarifies that if indeed it truly is God's wonderful matchless Word then it's got to fit "like a hand in a glove and work that way over and over again."
Disclaimer: I know this is a very brief synopsis of wierwille's presentation of "The Word".......to fully bring this cliche into its proper context, one needs to SURROUND IT with the verses and build-up in pfal.
Anyways............wierwille gets to the account of Jesus where he was 12 years old at his barmitzvah, rather than being 13 years old (the traditional standard). Wierwille goes on to say that he "found an old text that stated this, but doesn't have it anymore." I know this is a minor point......BUT IT BEGINS THE ARGUMENT THAT GROWS UGLY WITH HAIR IN LATER YEARS. Wierwille states that he cannot document his statement in pfal, and further insists that he KNOWS it's right! Why? Because Jesus was illegitimate....and many thought that he was a bastard child, (born out of wedlock, not the right gene pool -- God's, etc.)
Even in pfal........wierwille is beginning to take "liberties" with "The Word." To be blunt ---- Wierwille is ALREADY DOING what he says not to do --no private interpretation. There are other references that he doesn't document. And, away he goes.
You see, Deciderator..........wierwille adamantly states "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word." A session or two later......wierwille IS adding and augmenting aspects of the Scriptures. He's twisting things and cramming things into a neat little package for marketing.
I have to stop and remember that you took the pfal class in 1987 or thereabouts......right? So, you missed all the history of PFAL '77. One of the reasons that PFAL '77 was such a big deal was because the research team (Walter and some others) were wanting wierwille to RE-TEACH PFAL AND GET RID OF SOME ERRORS THAT WERE PRESENT IN THE PFAL CLASS. Needless to say, when the new class was "in the can" ....wierwille just wasn't up for the challenge and did not improve on the '67 class.
Fast forward...........wierwille's corps program was loaded with WIERWILLE'S WAY, and wierwille's "literal translations according to usage." In other words, much leniency was given to the MOG and he added lots of private interpretation to things. Why do you think that wierwille's "research team" abandoned him?????? Why do you think that very few books came out without wierwille's name on them?????
Heck......even after wierwille's death, the trustees SHUT DOWN shoenheittt's (sp) adultery paper and cast him out of the way ministry. An adultery paper?????? Unbelievable! This square-one stuff should have been covered in wierwille's pfal class or the Christian Family and Sex class......but nope.
Lots of history......lots of watering-down the Scriptures.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand.....I believe Suda posts a few things that confirm much of what I'm saying regarding this subject.
Deciderator,
Just read your recent posts here. Feeling a bit testy tonight, are you? Hope it gets better for you.
Here at the GSC you'll find peoples beliefs run the whole gamut. The Christian and Jewish faiths are present, as are Wiccans, atheists, and agnostics, and others, I'm sure. From the posts I've read, those who still consider themselves Christians regard the Bible as the rulebook of that faith. But they are very careful, as you are, to come to conclusions for themselves, and not accept someone else's interpretation or viewpoint without careful consideration.
I know you've been pounded by the reactions of people to your favorite one-liner from the PFAL class. It's been a rude greetings to GSC in many ways, and I'm sorry for that, wish it had unfolded in another way.
But I see a lot of truth in what skyrider posted. The leaders who transfered their alligiance from God to the the twi organization, did substitute the class, The Way Magazine, and other Way publications for the source of study and used it as their first and primary reference for study of the Bible. I met a few of them. Thankfully, most that I was in contact with did not confuse the authority of Way documents, but remained focused on the Bible and God for their spiritual compass. That sounds like the leadership you had during your twi days.
But acknowledge the reality that some had PFAL shoved down their throats, and when something in their study contradicted Way publications they were scorned if they would not dismiss their beliefs as unsound. It happened, and too often. It's a pity. And that's why the institution failed. It became incapable of helping people grow spiritually and learn how to utilize their gifts effectively in His service.
Suda
Deciderator........sorry, I can't meet you at HIGH NOON today. I've got a full day planned and I'm already behind schedule. Hope my explanation helps you abit.
What we have seen consistently in this thread on this point is a number of people pretending to address the point when in reality they need to change the subject, reinterpret, redefine, or anything other than say whether they endorse the principle of THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD!
Define The Word, please. Is it what was taught in PFAL, is it the Bible as we have it today in a literal sence, is it the bible minus additions and subtractions from it that have been made by man?
I will assume for the moment you mean it in the sense that it was taught in PFAL, so I can at least attempt to answer your question. Very simply put, not it is not The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word.
First, it is God, it is God, and nothing but God. My relationship with God. Then my relationship with people and it is a very very close second to my relationship with God, almost a tie, if you will. Then it is the animals and planet we live on, which I believe we have a responsiblity to take care of too.
To expand upon my answer. I think there are millions, if not billions, of people on this planet who have a relationship with God, who have never heard of the Bible, who have never studied "The Word."
"The Word" is a means to an end. It is a study tool, a guidebook, to help you understand God, people, and our planet. It can also be a hindrence, and ultimately was in TWI. "The Word" became an idol that superceded our relationships with God and each other.
Sorry, Deciderator, I thought I had answered your question.
From the posts I've read, those who still consider themselves Christians regard the Bible as the rulebook of that faith. But they are very careful, as you are, to come to conclusions for themselves, and not accept someone else's interpretation or viewpoint without careful consideration.
I am a Christian. I use the Bible as my source of reference for how to live a Godly life. Another cliche I like is "What Would Jesus Do?". Often when faced with a situation and uncertain as how to proceed, I ask myself this question. And I base my "best guess" of WWJD on what I learn from the Bible. Sometimes I do a new study of something; sometimes I rely on what I have already learned. But I always supplement this with prayer. I ask God for guidance and direction. And I often get an anwer back via His still, quiet voice. Sometimes I seek the counsel of someone in deciding what action to take. Most of my trusted friends are Christian. Many of the professionals I seek counsel from are Christian. Sometimes I search out other publications on the question. And one of my favorite authors is of the Jewish faith, so her advice would only come from the Old Testament, not the New Testament.
From my recollection, when VPW was referring to The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word, he was holding up his Bible which indicates to me he was saying the Word = the Bible. So do I
endorse the principle of THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD!
If it has to be a definitive yes or no answer, then to be honest, I'd have to say no. But I would qualify (sorry, I just have to, not trying to side step your question) that by saying my first "source of advice" is always either prayer or the Bible. Sometimes I feel the need to supplement prayer and the Bible with input from other trusted sources, either through direct communication, or sometimes by reading a publication by an expert I respect but do not know personally.
I really tried to answer your question. Did I succeed, or did I miss your point again?
Sounds like you are calling my name......wanting to meet me at HIGH NOON with my six-shooter strapped and loaded and ready for the challenge.
(*skyrider puts down his whiskey, spits on the floor and wipes his mouth with his sleeve........saying "Why I've shot more out-laws and no-gooders than you'll ever know.".....as he turns back to his whiskey)
Reminiscent of the immortal words of victor paul wierwille......."Why I've forgot more Word than that feller will ever know."" -- referring to the theologian on the other side of the English Channel.
Ahhhh.
Always good to open with a put down and a lil' ego pump.
Especially when you need it so badly.
Deciderator.....if you want to suspend and hold that cliche "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word" --
That's not what I want at all.
What I want is for you to directly address the question as to whether you apply it
I believe that one of the first things one has to do is qualify many factors. IMO, it cannot stand alone as a suscinct cliche......the ambiguity of it all is insurmountable. Starting with......"What is The Word"
Annnnnnnnnnd the fancy footwork begins.
However one chooses to APPROACH the concept of "The Word" is the STARTING POINT of conflicting viewpoints. For example, you and I might agree that when God said, "Let there be light" as recorded in Genesis.... that is "The Word," the God-breathed Word. I agree.
Skyrider executes a very nice veronica.....
In pfal, as wierwille starts down this road of biblical research......
But then goes off on a tangent, never to return and answer the question.
.........Deciderator........sorry, I can't meet you at HIGH NOON today. I've got a full day planned and I'm already behind schedule. Hope my explanation helps you abit.
We-ell, you couldn't answer the question, but you shore did show the lantern-jawed gravitas of a grizzled vet who just can't remember no more so he dines out on a host of his own cliches, hoping a sufficiently dense cloud of them will obscure the non-answer within.
But perhaps that is an answer in itself.
Have a good weekend.
You too, old-timer.
I'll see if I can git Cookie to put together some grub you can take home so you don't have to cook.
We-ell, you couldn't answer the question, but you shore did show the lantern-jawed gravitas of a grizzled vet who just can't remember no more so he dines out on a host of his own cliches, hoping a sufficiently dense cloud of them will obscure the non-answer within.
After reading skyrider's response I had to go somewhere before I had the opportunity to say what you said here. Throughout that rather lengthy "dog and pony show" I too saw it as a non-answer.
I'm with you on prayer and seeking the advice from others at times.
But let's say you wanted to know more about the return of Christ.
For me, while I may talk to others about it, to really and truly settle an issue about the return, I would go to the Bible and that would be my source for Truth on the subject.
Would you (and not just you, Suda but anyone) accept the word of someone else -anyone - without checking your Bible and what you have worked previously?
Would you (and not just you, Suda but anyone) accept the word of someone else -anyone - without checking your Bible and what you have worked previously?
I wouldn't. That's something I learned in the PFAL class. Didn't you?
In your own theology, is it "The Word! The Word! And Nothing but God's Wonderful Matchless Word!"?
Where do you go for Truth regarding your faith and practice?
Before I continue, I'd like to remind you that in Proverbs there are a number of verses that speak to interpersonal relations. I am particularly reminded of one verse that says something to the effect of, "A soft answer turneth away wrath..."
I really have no desire to debate you at all. I'll answer a few questions and if you don't agree with me, that's up to you.
Regarding your question.
I'm a Christian. I left TWI in 1989 when the "loyalty letter" hit my door. I had always said that I was loyal to God and God only, so when I was asked to declare my loyalty to one of two men I walked.
I fumbled around for a long time. I tried to use the class and the research principles taught in it. I even re-wrote the class using different scriptures to "prove" the points made therein.
This is where things started to break down for me. I found myself squeezing scripture to fit a model and that was not acceptable to me at all.
I stopped studying the Bible. If you knew me at all you would know what a huge thing this was for me to do, because I was known as the local "researcher."
PFAL had colored how I approached God and His Word. Furthermore, I had made an idol out of my studies and my intellect.
I started praying a lot more and reading a lot less. I had enough head knowlege to last me a lifetime and then some.
So now, almost 30 years after I walked you ask me if it's "The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word. " (THAT'S the way I heard it.) I guess I have to say, "NO."
It's "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself."
It's, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you."
It's, "Jesus is Lord."
I read the Bible. I keep it in perspective. I talk to God much more now than I ever did before.
I'm not debating how and what I believe. That's my answer. Do with it what you will. I have posted enough while during my stay here that you can garner a pretty good picture of who and what I am.
Define The Word, please. Is it what was taught in PFAL, is it the Bible as we have it today in a literal sence, is it the bible minus additions and subtractions from it that have been made by man?
I will assume for the moment you mean it in the sense that it was taught in PFAL, so I can at least attempt to answer your question. Very simply put, not it is not The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word.
First, it is God, it is God, and nothing but God. My relationship with God. Then my relationship with people and it is a very very close second to my relationship with God, almost a tie, if you will. Then it is the animals and planet we live on, which I believe we have a responsiblity to take care of too.
Does that answer your question?
That's a nice, direct answer.
So what source or sources do you go to in order to find out about God? Let's say someone came to you and wanted to know how to get born again. Would you open the Book and show them what the Bible says?
Or lets say you heard someone make a comment about a particular verse or subject of a spiritual nature. What part would the Bible play in determining an answer you were sure of?
Before I continue, I'd like to remind you that in Proverbs there are a number of verses that speak to interpersonal relations. I am particularly reminded of one verse that says something to the effect of, "A soft answer turneth away wrath..."
I really have no desire to debate you at all. I'll answer a few questions and if you don't agree with me, that's up to you.
I'm sorry if my words have been harsh.
I did not intend them to come out that way.
I am interested in more of a discussion than a debate.
More of a polite exchange of views.....
.....So now, almost 30 years after I walked you ask me if it's "The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word. " (THAT'S the way I heard it.) I guess I have to say, "NO."
It's "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself."
It's, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you."
It's, "Jesus is Lord."
Looks like The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word, to me.
So now, almost 30 years after I walked you ask me if it's "The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word. " (THAT'S the way I heard it.) I guess I have to say, "NO."
It's "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself." That saying comes from The Word. You didn't learn it any other place.
It's, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you." This is another saying that comes from the Word. Likewise you didn't learn it in any other place.
It's, "Jesus is Lord." Once again, you learned Jesus is Lord from the Word. All of these beliefs you hold are from the Word. So, I suppose even for you, it's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word.
So what source or sources do you go to in order to find out about God? Let's say someone came to you and wanted to know how to get born again. Would you open the Book and show them what the Bible says?
Or lets say you heard someone make a comment about a particular verse or subject of a spiritual nature. What part would the Bible play in determining an answer you were sure of?
I have to preface this by saying I didn't realize your question was directed only to those who still consider themselves Christian. I no longer apply that label to myelf. I am Jewish. I do believe in what Jesus taught, but not quite in the same manner as most people who label themelves Christian do.
I guess if someone asked me how to get born again, my first response would be to ask them what they think that means. I don't believe I have the power to get someone "born again". That would be between the individual and God. I could show them verses that make references to that concept, but they would have to study it, think on it, and ask God for direction.
If someone made a comment about a particular subject of a spirital nature and I was interested in studying it further yes I would check out what the Bible has to say on the subject. I would also check out the midrash on the subect. Depending on how deep my interest goes and whether or not I have found a peaceful answer, I may also check a number of other sources. My final conclusion would be based upon what I have read in those places (and I am sure I would find a number of conflicting opinions and ideas) and the peaceable answer I get from God combined.
I think "part II" of my previous response would cover pretty much any question of interest. I spend a lot of time in the doctrinal forum and there too you will see I use the Bible, Midrash (the Midrash are oral traditions and folklore combined with various rabbinical arguments regarding biblical verses and concepts and what they mean - you will find the Rabbi's do not always agree), and other sources as well.
In the end though, I will untimately form my belief based on what I believe God has worked in me. I would expect others to do the same as well. I don't particularly care to persuade someone to believe exactly as I do. Instead I prefer to offer what information I have learn what information other people have, share my thoughts hear the thoughts of others, and let others form their own beliefs. It makes no difference to me whether they have a differing opinion/belief or not because I believe God will lead each of us where we need to be when we need to be there.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
118
103
143
114
Popular Days
Aug 4
146
Jul 30
140
Jul 31
123
Aug 1
99
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 118 posts
oldiesman 103 posts
doojable 143 posts
Larry N Moore 114 posts
Popular Days
Aug 4 2007
146 posts
Jul 30 2007
140 posts
Jul 31 2007
123 posts
Aug 1 2007
99 posts
Popular Posts
Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
doojable
Deciderator - while I see the point you're making I have to disagree.
On the surface, Skyrider is setting up a straw man argument. That would be true IF he was substituting the phrase "the Word" for "PFAL."
He is not doing this. He is in fact saying (I believe) that to may TWI leaders the two phrases became synonymous.
I don't see how he was avoiding the importance of the Word in his life - but I do see how he is pointing out a "bait and switch" in terminology that happened over time.
Now, I'm by the things you have written, I think that skyrider's time in TWI predates your's by about twenty years - so that may be the reason why he can say this and you not see his meaning.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Deciderator
Earlier in this thread I made the point that "THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD!" was something of value I took from the class and still hold to.
Others, perhaps not skyrider immediately decided to address my point by erecting this same straw man.
While mistaking one thing for the other may have been done by some, it was not by me and I am sure there are others.
The best thing is for skyrider to explain this, sans straw man.
I would like for the gentleman to address my point, namely
Edited by DecideratorLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
I don't think he ever intended to debate you on what you believe or held to be true.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Deciderator
Let's let him speak for himself.
In the meantime, how 'bout you Doojable?
In your own theology, is it "The Word! The Word! And Nothing but God's Wonderful Matchless Word!"?
Where do you go for Truth regarding your faith and practice?
Edited by DecideratorLink to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
Page 6 - What’s Happening in this thread?
(NOTE: Page 5 has not been posted yet, as I felt this one is what was needed tonight )
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, Page 48, Page 5 not yet posted)
The Need for Empathy in Reading Posts
Page 11 starts with Jonny’s response to Excatedra about m’s story.
His response really gave me pause to think. In trying to understand where he might be coming from, I made up my own "Jonny Lingo story". Jonny, for purposes of illustration, please indulge me and let me fabricate a story loosely based on some things I think I recall reading in some of your posts. If I mix up some of the facts, please overlook them, as this story is just for illustration, and not intended to be true or factual in any way. If I am remembering correctly, you and your wife are the proud parents of a beautiful daughter who is now serving in the Merchant Marines. She has recently been commissioned and is based on the same ship that you served on when you started with the Merchant Marines (MM for short).For character development, I have to summarize my impressions of you from” the man you post to be”, as I have never had to pleasure of knowing you outside of the cyber world. You appear to be a real man’s man. A perfect weekend for you would be heading out into the wild with some buddies, tracking bears and killing them for dinner, or fishing for a prized salmon. The fight in landing that fish is more delightful to you than eating that big boy, and eating it is sheer pleasure. In your youth you loved fast cars and faster wimmin. You’re not cocky, but you have solid self-esteem. You’re self confident, and won’t be pushed around. You stick to your guns, and allow no one to grab you by your cajones which, to you, are as big and mighty as Alaskan King Crabs. You have a soft side which few rarely see completely exposed, but it shows through in your manner with people, especially the ladies. But you “ain’t no sissy”, your keep that soft side under control and use it to your advantage, but never let it rule or overpower you. Naw, you got that baby under control.
Now for my “hypothetical facts”, they are complete fabrications fashioned to serve the purposes of my story. Let’s say the name of the ship you served on, and is now “home” to your daughter is the “USS Alaska”, the premiere ship in the fleet, the one every Merchant Marine wants to serve on. It’s where the “action is” because the Captain of that ship has the Commodore’s ear, as all the special projects the MM’s are working on are based here. Serving on this ship provides the best opportunity to learn, to network, to meet the “makers and shakers”, and lay a solid foundation for advancing your career in the MM. While a cadet at the MM Academy, your daughter was taken under the wing of a Lt. Commander working on the “latest and greatest” project of the MM’s. They just clicked together as a team, had developed a great working rapport, he became her mentor. She has great respect for him and trusts him and his judgment. Upon her graduation, he had hand picked her to join his “sea duty” team and come aboard the USS Alaska as his right hand” man” in working out the kinks in this new project and implementing it. And a real plumb is that they would daily access to the Captain as this is his pet project and he wants to be as involved as possible. If all goes well, this is his final stepping stone towards the promotion to Commodore he’s been aspiring too all his life. And retirement age was coming soon, and he wants to go out in style.
You remember the bittersweet day you and your wife saw her off on her first 6 month tour of sea duty. Man, she was so beautiful and striking in that uniform. You can see her now: head held high, grinning from ear to ear brimming with excitement and anticipation, the confidence of “look out world - here I come” beaming from her eyes, stepping surely on her feet, grounded with self confidence and self esteem, as she walked up that gangplank. Once on board she turned and waved, the two of you exchanged that “secret” wink and thumbs up sign you had shared since her early childhood, then she turned around sharply with perfect military precision, and disappeared into the body of the ship, heading to her new work station in the Lt. Commander’s office to help steer the future course of the MM’s. You were so proud, and filled with anticipation for her. Your heart felt like it was bursting with joy.
It seemed like the ensuing 6 months would be the longest in your life, and you looked forward to your reunion. The two of you had always enjoyed talking about your days in the MM’s, how serving on that great ship had helped shape you into a real man. It was the best training ground you could have ever experienced. She regaled in your stories, in fact, it had started the yearning in her heart to grow up to be a MM, just like her dad! You knew she’d come back a woman, no longer your little girl, but an adult now, out on her own and grabbing all the gusto of life. All of her strengths would be more solidified, and she would have worked on overcoming her weaknesses or learning how to compensate for them such that they would not hold her back from becoming all she desired to become. What a day that would be when she returned, sharing all of her excitement with you! You could both share “war stories” of the good times and the hard times you experienced aboard that grand ship and compare notes. How were things different now and what remained the same and was just as she had imagined.
You couldn’t sleep the night before she got home you were so excited. She’d have a two week leave, and lots of that time would be at home with the family. You and your wife were there an hour early, just to make sure you’d be the first faces she saw as she disembarked the ship. You couldn’t wait to see that confident, beautiful “new woman” walk down that gangplank, and share the secret wink and thumbs up. The MM’s were starting to file out now, and you’re both searching the crowds for her, but can’t find her. Well, there’s someone that looks a lot like her, but can’t be her. She’s kinda slumped over, almost running with her head slightly bowed, like she escaping. But lo and behold, that is her! My gosh, she must be sick. She looks a bit disheveled, not the “sharp as a tack” look she always bore. Her eyes have an almost vacant look about them. She sees you, raises her hand with a slight wave, and gives you a quick smile. She races into your arms and gives you a hug like she’ll never let go. You ask her how she’s feeling, is everything all right? She assures you she is, just been really busy tying up the loose ends before the tour was over, hasn’t had a lot of sleep, and not much appetite. But she’s home now, and all will be well. She’ll get the TLC she needs and be able to regroup. Let’s go home now, I can’t wait to be in that sanctuary again. I’ve missed it so, and long for a shower in my bathroom to scrub the sea out of me, a nice long nap in my own comfortable bed, in my own room, where I feel safe and secure.
You and your wife are concerned about her. When she wakes up you ask about the project. Went well, very few hitches. Yeah, looked like the Captain was gonna make Commodore. All the “final” paperwork on the implementation results had to be put in order. In fact, would be her assignment for the next 6 months while on shore duty. He was staying ashore, too, to make sure everything stayed on course and the final product was flawless. Don’t know how he’s ever made it so far. Comes from a well established MM family, so grew up in it. His dad had been grooming him for this while he was still active, made sure he had all the right contacts, was able to secure all the plumb assignments. He reminded her a bit of the “Frank Burns” character on M.A.S.H. She’d admit, he was a bright guy, but he must have gotten all the right breaks to get where he was. And a real weasel. A master at manipulating people, getting them to do all the work, and taking all the glory. And, man what a temper. He knew how to bark orders and get exactly what he wanted. Never took “no” for an answer. Yeah, her mentor, the Lt. Commander was okay, too. In fact, the Captain had put him up for promotion to Commander because of the success of the project. But let’s don’t talk about ship life. I’m so glad to be home and just want to bask in the warmth, comfort and love here. Feel like I’m wrapped in my favorite blanket, safe and secure. I just want to enjoy the respite. Let’s not spoil it by sharing “war stories”. I just want to forget it for a while. My time on board was so intense, I just need a break from it.
After a few days, she’s well rested and fed, and starting to perk back up and resembling her old self. You and your wife share a sigh of relief. Must have been a really hard tour. She’s such a go getter, must have worked herself half to death and not taken care of herself. But that’s our girl! Heck, she’ll probably make Commodore herself one of these days! Bet she’ll even start going out with her friends some now. Has hardly even taken any phone calls since she’s been at home. Well, she’s all rested now. Looks so much better, I’m so glad.
A few nights before her leave comes to an end, you are awakened in the night by horrifying screams emanating from your daughter’s room. You rush in, find her in a fitful stage of sleep, fighting some adversary, repeating “No! No! No!” over and over again, “Stop it you sick bas+ard!” and then the screaming started anew. You sit down beside her and start to shake her awake, while telling her, “It’s only a bad dream. Tell me what’s going on. What has you so terrified?” She starts to wake up, sees you and instinctively lunges towards you with a look like a mad woman in her eyes, knocking you off the bed. She’s trying to claw at you, but you pin her arms down in a forceful body hug, and are talking in a loud, firm voice “Wake up honey. It’s me, it’s your daddy. I’m not going to hurt you. It’s all a bad dream. Please, calm down, tell me what has you so frightened. Who are you so terrified of?” She finally realizes where she is, safely in your arms, at home, in her room. Thank God! Nobody will hurt me here. She bursts into tears and great sobs of grief and it is quite awhile before she is able to speak.
Then she starts to tell you of her nightmare at sea. Yes, she did have the plumb assignment, on the plumb ship, with frequent access to the plumb man, the Captain. They worked side-by-side a lot, mostly in the late afternoon and early evening, often over dinner in his cabin. He had requested she give him the daily wrap up reports instead of the Lt. Commander, and while he didn’t like it, he couldn’t buck to boss. He had the morning briefings and planning sessions. Like she’s told you, she disliked the Captain, actually from the beginning. He just gave her the creeps. And something about him reminded her of that cowardly, wimpy, whiney “Frank Burns”, hiding behind false bravado and loving the power of his rank, and lauding it over others. But he was the boss, she had to obey his commands. So she was always well prepared for the meetings, ready to go over all the information in a succinct manner so that she could minimize the time alone with him. She really didn’t like having dinner in his quarters, just seemed like he was trying to make it a forced, fake intimacy, rather than the business meeting it actually was. He always insisted they enjoy a glass of one of his special wines together over dinner. That was his hobby, fancied himself as a real wine sommelier or something. Well, one night he served her his prize wine. Made a big deal about how rare and expensive it was, but it was appropriate for a celebration. All the bugs had been worked out of their project, and the first day of implementation had gone so smoothly. And it’s success was largely due to her input. Yes, she was a real smart cookie with a bright future ahead of her in the MM’s and he could make sure she made the right contacts, and she’d be his right hand “woman” on the job as they completed this project. And he would make sure she was properly rewarded.
Well, the wine didn’t taste all that great to me, and as we were finishing dinner I started to fill really dizzy and nauseous. I excused myself and went to the restroom, washed my face with cold water, but it didn’t help. I half stumbled out of there, and he supported me and took me over to the couch to lie down. He tried to make me comfortable, and I told him I just wanted to get back to my room. He said, no, I looked really sick and he was going to summon the ship’s doctor to come up there and care for me. Just lay there, and he’d call from his office in the other room and the doctor would be here pronto. Well, I must have passed out, because the next thing I know I wake up naked on the couch with that bas+ard on top of me, forcing himself into me, telling me how good I looked and felt, and how he was initiating me into the world of a successful MM woman. How he was the perfect lover and how lucky I was to be able to be pleasured by him. The idiot was talking to himself, in his own dream world, not even aware that I was beginning to regain consciousness. I started telling him “No! No! No! Stop it you sick bas+ard!.” Then he got angry and physical, and easily overpowered me as I was in a drugged stupor. It was so vile, and horrifying, Dad, I thought it would never be over. When he was finally satisfied, he rolled off of me and asked, “Now wasn’t that grand! Lucky you to be my woman for this tour of duty!” I almost threw up. I was so shocked and confused and enraged. I saw him as a crazed animal. I wouldn’t even acknowledge the words he spoke to me; I just dismissed him and refused to say anything at all. I threw myself together as quickly as possible and headed straight to the Lt. Commander’s quarters and found him there.
I told him what had happened and that I wanted that son-of-a-bi+ch court martialed, stripped of his authority, and buried under the dam* brig. And to my horror, he replied, I guess I should have warned you of his reputation. That is his mo. He sets his eyes on some female officer and promises to pave the way towards a glorious future with the MM’s in exchange for their “company”. Understand he’s good at keeping his promises, too, to keep them in line and “enamored” of him. Understand there’s even competition among some of the female officer’s for his attentions as he has helped the career of quite a few. Though I was a bit concerned by his assigning you the evening wrap-ups, I didn’t think he’d court a newbie, nor force himself on you. But now that you know the score, be wary of him. You’re a big girl now, and you can take care of yourself. The tour is half over. If I were you, I’d let him know in no uncertain terms that you have no desire to be his paramour, avoid him as much as possible, and keep your mouth shut. He has such a huge ego, to be deflected by a beautiful young woman like you will be a real slap in the face. And don’t tell anyone else. I’ll keep your confidence. I’d hate to think what he’d do if he “lost face” with the staff and crew. He can be villainous, you know, and he has all the right contacts. He would try to crush your career, as well as anyone who tried to help you. I’d say it’s not worth the risk. Just suck it up and deal with it the best you can. You are resourceful, bright, and strong. You can handle it. Hey, look on the bright side, you’re a woman and have the right equipment to open doors men don’t have. Use it to your advantage.
I had no where else to turn. I could either suck it up and face it, or jump overboard in the middle of the ocean. I’m no quitter, I’m a fighter. So I was determined not to let that SOB touch me again. Easier said than done. He took every opportunity he could to “loosen” me up when were alone, letting his hand linger just too long, give me a pat on the butt, etc. He raped me, forcefully and cruelly on two more occasions. I finally decided it would be better not to fight him, but to have it more on my terms. I initiated the next encounter, stroked his ego, did whatever it took to please him. I let him know I’d choose a special night every week to do this, to please him, but to build anticipation he could never make any sexual advances towards me. Never. Well the “Frank Burns” wimp in him took the bait, and then I was in control. But I knew I was nothing but a wh*re.
“Why didn’t you tell me?” you ask. She replies, “Why? How could I tell you your daughter prostituted herself? Would that make you proud? I am so ashamed of myself, I feel so dirty, and guilty. What did I do to make him think I was anything less than a professional MM? What vibe did I give off for him to think I wanted to be his paramour. Where did I go wrong? How did I screw up so badly? How did I let myself down? I scorn women who try to sleep their way through life. They are the scum of the earth to me. Yet now I have to accept that is precisely what I have become. How did I shatter my dreams? How did I disappoint myself so wretchedly? And you and mom? How can you ever forgive me?”
And after she’s poured her heart out to your, your reply would be:
He!! no, Jonny. You’d be more likely to say: Forgive you, honey, for what? You did nothing wrong. This is not your fault. You did nothing to ask for this or deserve this. You are completely innocent! That son-of-a-bi+ch violated you. He is 100% responsible. He took a young Ensign in his charge and abused her for his own pleasure. You had no one to turn to. After I kill that Captain, I’m gonna kill that Lt. Commander for betraying you and putting you in harm’s way. He knew better. He should have made it clear this could happen, so that you could have used that information to make your decision on what assignment to choose. They both abused you. Do NOT blame yourself in any way, shape, or fashion.”
All you posters out there, when you hear stories of sexual abuse, try to put yourself in the shoes of the mother or father of that girl, and not the “arm chair quarterback” critiquing the re-runs of a game. That’s not the time to try and solve the problem, point our what mistakes she made, or the “red” flags she overlooked. Believe me, she has beat herself up more throughly than anyone else will ever be able to do. She’s looked at it from every angle to see where she blew it. She’d criticized and condemned herself over and over again to the point it’s extremely difficult to look at herself in the mirror. That haunted face staring back at her torments and confuses her, and reminds her of what she was once, and lost, and can’t figure out how. Most importantly, she is still blaming herself, internalizing the whole horrid incident. And she feels horribly ashamed and it takes every ounce of courage and then some for her to dump her heart out to you. LET HER DUMP. When she pauses to catch her breath, don’t rush to fill her pauses with chatter. Don’t try to fix it, don’t try to give her advice, don’t try to smooth it over, don’t try to make it less horrifying than it was. When she has the courage to confide in you, let her relive it as fully as she chooses and needs, let her dump it all over the place. Then when she’s finished, enjoy some quiet solitude for a bit, just comforting each other. When she’s ready, she’ll ask "What will I do? How can I regain my old self?" Then build her back up, encourage her, show her the villain’s role and make it distinct from hers. Help her to forgive herself. Get her counseling. And keep loving her through the healing process. Don’t bring the subject up to her to discuss it later, let her take that initiative when she’s ready and not feeling vulnerable. Then is the time to offer advice. And don’t change your image of her. Always remember she is the same wonderful person she always was, and treat her that way. The last thing she needs is your pity. Or worse, your scorn.
And when you read stories, take that same stance and put your empathy and compassion to work. It’s so easy to look at a situation with 20/20 hindsight and pick out the objective errors she made, what she could or should have done differently to avoid the situation. But try to understand what was going on subjectively, how she missed the clues, how she let herself get into a compromising position, or do things against her better judgment. For lack of a better phrase, try to “feel her pain”. If you can do that, then your words concerning such stories here will portray the heartache you can feel for her, and will not come across as judging her. Nothing could hurt her worse than to feel belittled or as if she’s being treated like Chevy Chase treated Jane Curtain on Saturday Night Live newscast “Jane you ignorant slu+”. That will just send her spiraling back down into the depths of condemnation, and will stunt her healing unbelievably.
Just my sermonette for tonight from someone who has been there, and is so grateful for those who comforted her and brought her back to life, and has forgiven those whose “ignorance” of how to treat the aftermath of the destruction hurt her during that time.
Jonny, hope you don’t mind I used you for an example. You have made such good use of stories, and I thought it was a good way to handle what I wanted to communicate. I meant no malice or harm towards you at all.
If I make my next post, it will be what I worked on last night as I was re-reading pages 5-10 of this thread and trying to see it through the poster’s eyes and hear it through the receiver’s ears. It’s long, so don’t know if I’ll make the effort or not. But it would give the background to what I was thinking and why this post struck me the way it did and what inspired the story above. So far I have only read through Jonny’s post on the top of page 11 in this thread. I’ve caught the tail end where it was when I rejoined, but need to read middle to know what it’s all about.
Suda (hoping she’s not boring you all to tears with her musings)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
Deciderator,
Just read your recent posts here. Feeling a bit testy tonight, are you? Hope it gets better for you.
Here at the GSC you'll find peoples beliefs run the whole gamut. The Christian and Jewish faiths are present, as are Wiccans, atheists, and agnostics, and others, I'm sure. From the posts I've read, those who still consider themselves Christians regard the Bible as the rulebook of that faith. But they are very careful, as you are, to come to conclusions for themselves, and not accept someone else's interpretation or viewpoint without careful consideration.
I know you've been pounded by the reactions of people to your favorite one-liner from the PFAL class. It's been a rude greetings to GSC in many ways, and I'm sorry for that, wish it had unfolded in another way.
But I see a lot of truth in what skyrider posted. The leaders who transfered their alligiance from God to the the twi organization, did substitute the class, The Way Magazine, and other Way publications for the source of study and used it as their first and primary reference for study of the Bible. I met a few of them. Thankfully, most that I was in contact with did not confuse the authority of Way documents, but remained focused on the Bible and God for their spiritual compass. That sounds like the leadership you had during your twi days.
But acknowledge the reality that some had PFAL shoved down their throats, and when something in their study contradicted Way publications they were scorned if they would not dismiss their beliefs as unsound. It happened, and too often. It's a pity. And that's why the institution failed. It became incapable of helping people grow spiritually and learn how to utilize their gifts effectively in His service.
Suda
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Deciderator
I understand what you are saying, Suda.
Please, let's not stray from the one point I am making and the question for skyrider and doojable and you too, if you care to chime in.
Given the circumstances of this forum and the experiences of the posters here it is a fair question.
Of course when it comes to theology I respect someone for not sharing their viewpoint.
What we have seen consistently in this thread on this point is a number of people pretending to address the point when in reality they need to change the subject, reinterpret, redefine, or anything other than say whether they endorse the principle of THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD!
I beleve there is nothing wrong with asking those who challenged me or others on the subject to be asked the same question.
I suspect that they too, still hold to that principle, but do not want to admit it.
I mean no disrespect.
Let each speak for him or herself on the question, preferably using simple declarative sentences sans straw men.
Edited by DecideratorLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Hello Deciderator,
Sounds like you are calling my name......wanting to meet me at HIGH NOON with my six-shooter strapped and loaded and ready for the challenge.
(*skyrider puts down his whiskey, spits on the floor and wipes his mouth with his sleeve........saying "Why I've shot more out-laws and no-gooders than you'll ever know.".....as he turns back to his whiskey)
Reminiscent of the immortal words of victor paul wierwille......."Why I've forgot more Word than that feller will ever know."" -- referring to the theologian on the other side of the English Channel.
Deciderator.....if you want to suspend and hold that cliche "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word" -- I believe that one of the first things one has to do is qualify many factors. IMO, it cannot stand alone as a suscinct cliche......the ambiguity of it all is insurmountable. Starting with......"What is The Word"
However one chooses to APPROACH the concept of "The Word" is the STARTING POINT of conflicting viewpoints. For example, you and I might agree that when God said, "Let there be light" as recorded in Genesis.... that is "The Word," the God-breathed Word. I agree.
In pfal, as wierwille starts down this road of biblical research......he qualifies many things. First things first, and he hits on verses like holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy spirit and no private interpretation. Of course, he notes to the students that there are NO ORIGINALS LEFT IN EXISTENCE. But moving on, he clarifies that if indeed it truly is God's wonderful matchless Word then it's got to fit "like a hand in a glove and work that way over and over again."
Disclaimer: I know this is a very brief synopsis of wierwille's presentation of "The Word".......to fully bring this cliche into its proper context, one needs to SURROUND IT with the verses and build-up in pfal.
Anyways............wierwille gets to the account of Jesus where he was 12 years old at his barmitzvah, rather than being 13 years old (the traditional standard). Wierwille goes on to say that he "found an old text that stated this, but doesn't have it anymore." I know this is a minor point......BUT IT BEGINS THE ARGUMENT THAT GROWS UGLY WITH HAIR IN LATER YEARS. Wierwille states that he cannot document his statement in pfal, and further insists that he KNOWS it's right! Why? Because Jesus was illegitimate....and many thought that he was a bastard child, (born out of wedlock, not the right gene pool -- God's, etc.)
Even in pfal........wierwille is beginning to take "liberties" with "The Word." To be blunt ---- Wierwille is ALREADY DOING what he says not to do --no private interpretation. There are other references that he doesn't document. And, away he goes.
You see, Deciderator..........wierwille adamantly states "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word." A session or two later......wierwille IS adding and augmenting aspects of the Scriptures. He's twisting things and cramming things into a neat little package for marketing.
I have to stop and remember that you took the pfal class in 1987 or thereabouts......right? So, you missed all the history of PFAL '77. One of the reasons that PFAL '77 was such a big deal was because the research team (Walter and some others) were wanting wierwille to RE-TEACH PFAL AND GET RID OF SOME ERRORS THAT WERE PRESENT IN THE PFAL CLASS. Needless to say, when the new class was "in the can" ....wierwille just wasn't up for the challenge and did not improve on the '67 class.
Fast forward...........wierwille's corps program was loaded with WIERWILLE'S WAY, and wierwille's "literal translations according to usage." In other words, much leniency was given to the MOG and he added lots of private interpretation to things. Why do you think that wierwille's "research team" abandoned him?????? Why do you think that very few books came out without wierwille's name on them?????
Heck......even after wierwille's death, the trustees SHUT DOWN shoenheittt's (sp) adultery paper and cast him out of the way ministry. An adultery paper?????? Unbelievable! This square-one stuff should have been covered in wierwille's pfal class or the Christian Family and Sex class......but nope.
Lots of history......lots of watering-down the Scriptures.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand.....I believe Suda posts a few things that confirm much of what I'm saying regarding this subject.
Deciderator........sorry, I can't meet you at HIGH NOON today. I've got a full day planned and I'm already behind schedule. Hope my explanation helps you abit.
Have a good weekend.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Define The Word, please. Is it what was taught in PFAL, is it the Bible as we have it today in a literal sence, is it the bible minus additions and subtractions from it that have been made by man?
I will assume for the moment you mean it in the sense that it was taught in PFAL, so I can at least attempt to answer your question. Very simply put, not it is not The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word.
First, it is God, it is God, and nothing but God. My relationship with God. Then my relationship with people and it is a very very close second to my relationship with God, almost a tie, if you will. Then it is the animals and planet we live on, which I believe we have a responsiblity to take care of too.
Does that answer your question?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
To expand upon my answer. I think there are millions, if not billions, of people on this planet who have a relationship with God, who have never heard of the Bible, who have never studied "The Word."
"The Word" is a means to an end. It is a study tool, a guidebook, to help you understand God, people, and our planet. It can also be a hindrence, and ultimately was in TWI. "The Word" became an idol that superceded our relationships with God and each other.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
Sorry, Deciderator, I thought I had answered your question.
I am a Christian. I use the Bible as my source of reference for how to live a Godly life. Another cliche I like is "What Would Jesus Do?". Often when faced with a situation and uncertain as how to proceed, I ask myself this question. And I base my "best guess" of WWJD on what I learn from the Bible. Sometimes I do a new study of something; sometimes I rely on what I have already learned. But I always supplement this with prayer. I ask God for guidance and direction. And I often get an anwer back via His still, quiet voice. Sometimes I seek the counsel of someone in deciding what action to take. Most of my trusted friends are Christian. Many of the professionals I seek counsel from are Christian. Sometimes I search out other publications on the question. And one of my favorite authors is of the Jewish faith, so her advice would only come from the Old Testament, not the New Testament.
From my recollection, when VPW was referring to The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word, he was holding up his Bible which indicates to me he was saying the Word = the Bible. So do I
If it has to be a definitive yes or no answer, then to be honest, I'd have to say no. But I would qualify (sorry, I just have to, not trying to side step your question) that by saying my first "source of advice" is always either prayer or the Bible. Sometimes I feel the need to supplement prayer and the Bible with input from other trusted sources, either through direct communication, or sometimes by reading a publication by an expert I respect but do not know personally.
I really tried to answer your question. Did I succeed, or did I miss your point again?
Suda
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Deciderator
Ahhhh.
Always good to open with a put down and a lil' ego pump.
Especially when you need it so badly.
That's not what I want at all.What I want is for you to directly address the question as to whether you apply it
Annnnnnnnnnd the fancy footwork begins.
Skyrider executes a very nice veronica.....
But then goes off on a tangent, never to return and answer the question.We-ell, you couldn't answer the question, but you shore did show the lantern-jawed gravitas of a grizzled vet who just can't remember no more so he dines out on a host of his own cliches, hoping a sufficiently dense cloud of them will obscure the non-answer within.
But perhaps that is an answer in itself.
You too, old-timer.
I'll see if I can git Cookie to put together some grub you can take home so you don't have to cook.
Something soft and not too chewy....
Edited by DecideratorLink to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
After reading skyrider's response I had to go somewhere before I had the opportunity to say what you said here. Throughout that rather lengthy "dog and pony show" I too saw it as a non-answer.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Deciderator
Suda, thank you for the kind reply.
I'm with you on prayer and seeking the advice from others at times.
But let's say you wanted to know more about the return of Christ.
For me, while I may talk to others about it, to really and truly settle an issue about the return, I would go to the Bible and that would be my source for Truth on the subject.
Would you (and not just you, Suda but anyone) accept the word of someone else -anyone - without checking your Bible and what you have worked previously?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
I wouldn't. That's something I learned in the PFAL class. Didn't you?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Before I continue, I'd like to remind you that in Proverbs there are a number of verses that speak to interpersonal relations. I am particularly reminded of one verse that says something to the effect of, "A soft answer turneth away wrath..."
I really have no desire to debate you at all. I'll answer a few questions and if you don't agree with me, that's up to you.
Regarding your question.
I'm a Christian. I left TWI in 1989 when the "loyalty letter" hit my door. I had always said that I was loyal to God and God only, so when I was asked to declare my loyalty to one of two men I walked.
I fumbled around for a long time. I tried to use the class and the research principles taught in it. I even re-wrote the class using different scriptures to "prove" the points made therein.
This is where things started to break down for me. I found myself squeezing scripture to fit a model and that was not acceptable to me at all.
I stopped studying the Bible. If you knew me at all you would know what a huge thing this was for me to do, because I was known as the local "researcher."
PFAL had colored how I approached God and His Word. Furthermore, I had made an idol out of my studies and my intellect.
I started praying a lot more and reading a lot less. I had enough head knowlege to last me a lifetime and then some.
So now, almost 30 years after I walked you ask me if it's "The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word. " (THAT'S the way I heard it.) I guess I have to say, "NO."
It's "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself."
It's, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you."
It's, "Jesus is Lord."
I read the Bible. I keep it in perspective. I talk to God much more now than I ever did before.
I'm not debating how and what I believe. That's my answer. Do with it what you will. I have posted enough while during my stay here that you can garner a pretty good picture of who and what I am.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Deciderator
That's a nice, direct answer.
So what source or sources do you go to in order to find out about God? Let's say someone came to you and wanted to know how to get born again. Would you open the Book and show them what the Bible says?
Or lets say you heard someone make a comment about a particular verse or subject of a spiritual nature. What part would the Bible play in determining an answer you were sure of?
Edited by DecideratorLink to comment
Share on other sites
Deciderator
I'm sorry if my words have been harsh.
I did not intend them to come out that way.
I am interested in more of a discussion than a debate.
More of a polite exchange of views.....
Looks like The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word, to me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
If you want to say that, go right ahead. It really seems more like you want to win a debate than listen to what I'm trying to say.
I have to go to work.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
I have to preface this by saying I didn't realize your question was directed only to those who still consider themselves Christian. I no longer apply that label to myelf. I am Jewish. I do believe in what Jesus taught, but not quite in the same manner as most people who label themelves Christian do.
I guess if someone asked me how to get born again, my first response would be to ask them what they think that means. I don't believe I have the power to get someone "born again". That would be between the individual and God. I could show them verses that make references to that concept, but they would have to study it, think on it, and ask God for direction.
If someone made a comment about a particular subject of a spirital nature and I was interested in studying it further yes I would check out what the Bible has to say on the subject. I would also check out the midrash on the subect. Depending on how deep my interest goes and whether or not I have found a peaceful answer, I may also check a number of other sources. My final conclusion would be based upon what I have read in those places (and I am sure I would find a number of conflicting opinions and ideas) and the peaceable answer I get from God combined.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
I'm listening to what you're saying. If I misconstrued what you meant -- my apology.
Have a great day dooj!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Deciderator
I can only take you at your word.
I don't believe I took anything out of context or was rude.
After all you've been through, look at what you said.
It's beautiful.
I would never try to argue with or debate you on
Indeed, on spiritual matters I would take what you have to say very seriously.
________________________________________________________________________________
________
________________________________________________________________________________
________
Abigail, I'm sorry, I didn't know you were not a Chjristian so my question was inappropriate.
Please delete the part about being born again and substuitute another spiritual subject of interest.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
I think "part II" of my previous response would cover pretty much any question of interest. I spend a lot of time in the doctrinal forum and there too you will see I use the Bible, Midrash (the Midrash are oral traditions and folklore combined with various rabbinical arguments regarding biblical verses and concepts and what they mean - you will find the Rabbi's do not always agree), and other sources as well.
In the end though, I will untimately form my belief based on what I believe God has worked in me. I would expect others to do the same as well. I don't particularly care to persuade someone to believe exactly as I do. Instead I prefer to offer what information I have learn what information other people have, share my thoughts hear the thoughts of others, and let others form their own beliefs. It makes no difference to me whether they have a differing opinion/belief or not because I believe God will lead each of us where we need to be when we need to be there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.