There are those who remember the early years of TWI with pleasure and value what they learned, who sustained hurts in TWI2, that they need to be healed from. Why should it not be an appropriate forum for them, just because they have a more balanced approach to TWI; i.e. that PFAL was a good class that taught many about God (who never lets man down even if people do)? They can balance the more emotional approach of those who seek only to vilify VPW and everything he did. I think that's a good purpose to serve, as well as exposing the hypocrisy of those who do the same things they accuse others of.
BTW, what are 'scritpures'?
Bold added by me. Just because someone thought PFAL was a good class, does not immediately mean that person has a more balanced approach to TWI. Likewise, just because someone has serious issues with VPW does not mean they are unbalanced in their approach.
I would suggested instead, that perhaps this place could be an appropriate setting for anyone who has had their life touched by TWI, regardless of their opinion of PFAL, VPW, Bill Clinton, or George W. Bush.
I'm not sure this is going to come out the way I mean it, so bear with me...
Just because I believed something in PFAL and still believe it today DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.
It only makes it true *for me.*
I find that more and more I am very open to consider anything that someone has to say about God, Jesus Christ, and spiritual matters. Well, I'll qualify that with a "within reason," but then again - it's within MY reason... ;)
In other words, since I'm not the center of the universe, just because I accept something as true it doesn't necessarily follow that it is true. I've seen too many instances of people being able to manipulate scripture to say whatever they want it to say.
I have the precepts I have deemed to be true. I don't sway from these. I believe in God, Jesus Christ His son, and salvation, among other things.
Pretty much all else is up to discussion. I'm not saying I change my mind to agree with everyone. I do, however, try to consider their words. I've changed my mind on some things, gone "neutral" on other things, and kept my beliefs on other things.
How so? Explain to me how you can attack what a person says or does without attacking the person him/herself. If you call someone a "twit" because they "defend" what they believe is true (as presented to them in PFAL) how is that NOT attacking the person?
Seperate the sin from the sinner?... ;)
Actually, it's against the rules of GreaseSpot to call people names...WHAT they say is fair game...seems like a simple concept to me...and I've never called anyone a twit.
There is a huge difference between calling someone stupid and claiming that what they said is stupid...
For example...if I say Larry is an idiot (which I would never say), I have made a personal attack and have broken the rules of this forum...but if I say "Larry's comments were idiotic", I have not broken the rules...Kapeesh?
And because I mined numerous gems in PFAL, does it mean I’m a PFAL fan/lover/apologist/defender? I am a fan and a lover of parts of it, but I do not consider myself an apologist nor a defender, because I readily point out the errors and make no bones that some scriptures were twisted and misapplied.
Actually, I believe that the VP apologist/defender label is used primarily for those who dismiss or minimize Wierwille's abuses because they got some goodies. I don't believe that I've ever seen you do that. Others have.
I’ve only made it through page 10 of this thread, and will be reading through more if it as time allows over the weekend. At that time I may see the apologist/defender attitude you speak of. As I have not yet spent time reading the comments on threads concerning those abused, I have not seen that attitude displayed to date. But I have heard often that it exists, so expect I will see some this weekend.
And if you do love all or part of PFAL or are thankful to Wierwille, why is it a problem if others call you that?
I have no problem with people acknowledging or commenting on my beliefs that there were many good things taught in PFAL or that I give due respect and thankfulness to VPW as teacher of that class. If I were ashamed of my opinions or felt they were wrong, I certainly would not be so free post them, but rather would be in the process of changing them to something I felt confident about and comfortable with. Your wording, “if others call you that”, call me a contentious name, it indicates that those others are unwilling to treat my opinions with respect or courtesy. Instead of an acknowledgment that we have differing opinions and making a civil effort to “agree to disagree”, my opinions are castigated as being faulty, askew, counterfactual, erroneous, fallacious, inaccurate, misguided, perverse, spurious, unsound, or unsatisfactory. And, yes, those adjectives may be apt descriptions of how many view my opinions. But to give me a hostile, antagonistic label is to say I am “guilty” versus “differing”. One is a callous accusation, the other is a civil pronouncement. One is intolerant, the other tolerant. One infers my comments are unwelcome, unwanted, and unacceptable; the other says they invited, worth consideration, and admissible although they differ from the mainstream.
But when viewed in the light that the mission of the GSC is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about the Way International and it's trustees, with no purpose stated on how that information is to be used, the rules of the "playing field" are a bit ambiguous. It would appear I am on the wrong “playground” and, unless I wish to keep silent on the subject, I should expect to be bullied rather than treated with civility. And if civility is not extended, the message is “pack your toys and go home”.
I was strongly encouraged/persuaded to come visit this “playground” because I would find many different viewpoints (some similar to mine, some very different) so that I could be exposed to the “whole story” of twi. Being a good sport, I ventured over here, and have learned a lot, but my basic beliefs have not changed. It would appear that as I have “not come to my senses”, seen the folly of my beliefs, and joined the other team, I am fair game for name calling and derision. And it begins to feel like that is just a continued effort by the “other team” to beat me down, show me how “stupid” I am, and get me to change my mind.
I guess if I’m to continue here, I’d better go sit on the bleachers in the “Visitors Section”. There I can cheer for my team, as well as say, “Man, what a pretty play! Sure wish our team had made it! Can’t help myself from applauding that player even if he is on the opposing team." I prefer being in an environment where an attempt is made to value everyone and enjoy the diversity, versus one of prejudice and intolerance. And sometimes it feels exactly like that around here. Perhaps I’m just a “sissy” and not capable of playing with the “big boys”.
Suda (not trying to whine, just clearly express myself)
I guess if I’m to continue here, I’d better go sit on the bleachers in the “Visitors Section”. There I can cheer for my team, as well as say, “Man, wish that play had been made by us. Sure was a good move! Can’t help myself from applauding that player, also”. I prefer being in an environment where an attempt is made to value everyone and enjoy the diversity, versus one of prejudice and intolerance. And sometimes it feels exactly like that around here. Perhaps I’m just a “ sissy” and not capable of playing with the “big boys”.
Suda (not trying to whine, just clearly express myself)
Say Suda... You seem to be holding your own quite nicely here. You're no "sissy." ;)
Suda, your posts are most admirable! But, there is opposition to what you say, because there are some VERY one sided people here. And to give credence to both sides is for some, most reprehensible, sadly enough...
Bold added by me. Just because someone thought PFAL was a good class, does not immediately mean that person has a more balanced approach to TWI. Likewise, just because someone has serious issues with VPW does not mean they are unbalanced in their approach.
I would suggested instead, that perhaps this place could be an appropriate setting for anyone who has had their life touched by TWI, regardless of their opinion of PFAL, VPW, Bill Clinton, or George W. Bush.
You make a valid point. I was thinking of people who post who are so angry and bitter that their posts come across as extremely emotional to the point of fixating on the negatives in the organization and ignoring all the good that was there. I agree with what Jonny Lingo just said.
Suda...After reading many of your posts, I have concluded that you are an honest, caring individual...you make many fine points and your motives are honorable...I think you're a very nice person.
That being said...it's not my intention to hurt anyone's feelings or to chase anyone away...but on the other hand, I can't in good conscience, compromise what I believe or the reasons that I post here. I feel passionate about exposing twi as the cult they are...who mangled God's word and manipulated people...and hurt many in the process...
...So what would you have me do? Hold back my opinions so that I don't offend those who disagree with me?...minimalize the damage done to people's lives so that those who still embrace pfal as being valuable can continue to do so without being challenged?...Play nicey nice with those who defend a man that I detest?
The very nature of this website is volatile...and sometimes harsh. We are dealing with a very personal subject here. I think that to engage in honest debate, one must develope thick skin...I think that Wierwille lied in God's name and crushed a lot of people in the process...I simply cannot soft soap my opinion on that for the sake of civility and "getting along" with people....each person has their own reason for being here...I don't hang out in the chat room to make friends and I've never attended any of the weinee roasts...I come here to state my opinions of a cult that stole 13 years of my life and hurt many people that I care about...I realize that I am blunt and oftentimes caustic in my remarks...I am hopeful that you will not take it personal...like I said...I think you're a nice person and I like you...and I think that you are a valuble member of the GreaseSpot community.
I'm not here to eliminate opposing views...just to state my own....peace.
You make a valid point. I was thinking of people who post who are so angry and bitter that their posts come across as extremely emotional to the point of fixating on the negatives in the organization and ignoring all the good that was there.
I can see how you feel that way Jeaniam.
I would say that you may have put the cart before the horse in the line I bolded. I'd think that the fixating on the negatives would give the appearance of being extremely emotional...
I think that for some people the negatives are the "sinking sand" that all the "good that was there" was built on. I'm reminded of something we used to say:
People may let us down - but God will never leave us or forsake us.
I credit God and good people who truly had a heart for Him with any good that happened.. I credit the negatives to an organization where men (humans) ruled.
You make a valid point. I was thinking of people who post who are so angry and bitter that their posts come across as extremely emotional to the point of fixating on the negatives in the organization and ignoring all the good that was there. I agree with what Jonny Lingo just said.
Well...You state "...all the good that was there", as if this were a fact. Am I not entitled to believe that there was no good there?...or not enough that warrants mentioning it?...
...So what would you have me do? Hold back my opinions so that I don't offend those who disagree with me?...minimalize the damage done to people's lives so that those who still embrace pfal as being valuable can continue to do so without being challenged?...Play nicey nice with those who defend a man that I detest?
Not at all, Groucho. I understand that when people are passionate about a subject and trying to be heard it can call for brutal honesty. Sometimes that is received differently than it was intended. Sometimes people can get carried away and cross the line from civility to name calling, and feel that it is necessary to get someone's attention.
I have no control over other people's actions - nor do I desire such control. But I do have control over my reactions and how I choose to deal with them. If the "playing field" is too much for me, I can choose to sit in the bleachers, go to the snack bar, or hang out in the parking lot chatting with friends.
I don't like being bullied, and when I feel like that is happening, I can walk away. People don't need to change to please me. I can choose who I hang out with, and excuse myself when I don't like their current attitude. And I can rejoin the group when it's settled back down and more to my pleasing.
Some of my favorite posters here hold very different opinions from me. And I think that's why I enjoy them so much. They challenge me to think. You and Oakspear both fall into that category. I may not like all you have to say, nor the way in which you say it from time to time, but I still like hearing what you have to say. You are both fine folks in my book.
The very nature of this website is volatile...and sometimes harsh. We are dealing with a very personal subject here. I think that to engage in honest debate, one must develope thick skin...I think that Wierwille lied in God's name and crushed a lot of people in the process...I simply cannot soft soap my opinion on that for the sake of civility and "getting along" with people....
Given the personal nature of the subject, does that then call for more civility and mutual respect?
It is my impression that some claim to be shocked, shocked! at what is alleged to have taken place and dadgummit they are going to form a posse and go hang the bad guys!, but in fact they are using that as a pretext to attack others.
Notice how when people say what things they took from PFAL, most, if not all of the time no one addresses what the person says was beneficial to them?
No, the attack is on the person and on TWI, VP, etc. in general.
Well...You state "...all the good that was there", as if this were a fact. Am I not entitled to believe that there was no good there?...or not enough that warrants mentioning it?...
Grouch...O!, Are you an old gaucho or a grouchy old guy with a few extra tomatoes standing on the mound looking at signals before delivering your next Ouucho!
13 years is a long prison sentence for sure. But there are others who committed even longer years of servitude, no? Remember, you and all the others still signed on the Dr. Viper line, so there was still “free will” as a part of the deal, right? No one truly was forced to go wow, or corps, or any of the other wonderful programs promoted by the way. Maybe that’s part of the reason for so much bitterness? You have nobody to blame for all that lost time...but yourself! And maybe GS is just a place or the only place, to let it out?? <_<
I’m sitting happily in the bleachers if you want a few peanuts! Bump
Grouch...O!, Are you an old gaucho or a grouchy old guy with a few extra tomatoes standing on the mound looking at signals before delivering your next Ouucho!
13 years is a long prison sentence for sure. But there are others who committed even longer years of servitude, no? Remember, you and all the others still signed on the Dr. Viper line, so there was still “free will” as a part of the deal, right? No one truly was forced to go wow, or corps, or any of the other wonderful programs promoted by the way. Maybe that’s part of the reason for so much bitterness? You have nobody to blame for all that lost time...but yourself! And maybe GS is just a place or the only place, to let it out?? <_<
I’m sitting happily in the bleachers if you want a few peanuts! Bump
It was the watch swinging on a chain that did it...................................................................
Concentrate on the watch......................back...............and forth............back..........and forth..................you are getting veeeeeery sleepy...........................back...........and forth............................you need my help, don't you? .............................back............and forth......................back.....and forth.................you want to go WOW.....................back...........and forth.............................get on your knees and bark like a dog ...................................back............and forth........................ now roll over ................................ back......and forth ............................ back.........and forth ........................ now act like a chimpanzee ....................... back............and forth..................................VP needs your girlfriend ................. back.........and forth.................................your belly button is in the shirt pocket of Craig Martindale..............................back.........and forth.....................back.......and forth..................sing our national anthem in Swedish..............................back.........and forth......................................... you like to drown kittens .................................back...........and forth................................. you have x-ray vision and can see through women's clothes....................back........and forth.................Look! Here comes Bea Arthur! ................................ back.....and forth .................. back........and forth.............................. from now on when someone asks you for the time you will break out in uproarious laughter for 15 minutes....................back......and forth....................VP needs you to shine his shoes with your tongue.......................back...........and forth.............................back.......and forth................do your Elvis Presley imitation...........................back...........and forth...................back..........and forth........................from now on you will talk like a pirate..........................back..........and forth........................back...........and forth..........................
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Abigail
Bold added by me. Just because someone thought PFAL was a good class, does not immediately mean that person has a more balanced approach to TWI. Likewise, just because someone has serious issues with VPW does not mean they are unbalanced in their approach.
I would suggested instead, that perhaps this place could be an appropriate setting for anyone who has had their life touched by TWI, regardless of their opinion of PFAL, VPW, Bill Clinton, or George W. Bush.
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excathedra
sirguess, thank you, my head is hurting a little less now
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doojable
I'm not sure this is going to come out the way I mean it, so bear with me...
Just because I believed something in PFAL and still believe it today DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.
It only makes it true *for me.*
I find that more and more I am very open to consider anything that someone has to say about God, Jesus Christ, and spiritual matters. Well, I'll qualify that with a "within reason," but then again - it's within MY reason... ;)
In other words, since I'm not the center of the universe, just because I accept something as true it doesn't necessarily follow that it is true. I've seen too many instances of people being able to manipulate scripture to say whatever they want it to say.
I have the precepts I have deemed to be true. I don't sway from these. I believe in God, Jesus Christ His son, and salvation, among other things.
Pretty much all else is up to discussion. I'm not saying I change my mind to agree with everyone. I do, however, try to consider their words. I've changed my mind on some things, gone "neutral" on other things, and kept my beliefs on other things.
For me, this is a balanced approach to LIFE.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Seperate the sin from the sinner?... ;)
Actually, it's against the rules of GreaseSpot to call people names...WHAT they say is fair game...seems like a simple concept to me...and I've never called anyone a twit.
There is a huge difference between calling someone stupid and claiming that what they said is stupid...
For example...if I say Larry is an idiot (which I would never say), I have made a personal attack and have broken the rules of this forum...but if I say "Larry's comments were idiotic", I have not broken the rules...Kapeesh?
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Deciderator
Sometimes when reading this and other threads, I wonder which other GSpotters I would want to fellowship with over God's Word.
Who would I like to hear teach me what they worked from the Bible?
Who would bless me?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Maybe you should start a list...
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Suda
I’ve only made it through page 10 of this thread, and will be reading through more if it as time allows over the weekend. At that time I may see the apologist/defender attitude you speak of. As I have not yet spent time reading the comments on threads concerning those abused, I have not seen that attitude displayed to date. But I have heard often that it exists, so expect I will see some this weekend.
I have no problem with people acknowledging or commenting on my beliefs that there were many good things taught in PFAL or that I give due respect and thankfulness to VPW as teacher of that class. If I were ashamed of my opinions or felt they were wrong, I certainly would not be so free post them, but rather would be in the process of changing them to something I felt confident about and comfortable with. Your wording, “if others call you that”, call me a contentious name, it indicates that those others are unwilling to treat my opinions with respect or courtesy. Instead of an acknowledgment that we have differing opinions and making a civil effort to “agree to disagree”, my opinions are castigated as being faulty, askew, counterfactual, erroneous, fallacious, inaccurate, misguided, perverse, spurious, unsound, or unsatisfactory. And, yes, those adjectives may be apt descriptions of how many view my opinions. But to give me a hostile, antagonistic label is to say I am “guilty” versus “differing”. One is a callous accusation, the other is a civil pronouncement. One is intolerant, the other tolerant. One infers my comments are unwelcome, unwanted, and unacceptable; the other says they invited, worth consideration, and admissible although they differ from the mainstream.
But when viewed in the light that the mission of the GSC is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about the Way International and it's trustees, with no purpose stated on how that information is to be used, the rules of the "playing field" are a bit ambiguous. It would appear I am on the wrong “playground” and, unless I wish to keep silent on the subject, I should expect to be bullied rather than treated with civility. And if civility is not extended, the message is “pack your toys and go home”.
I was strongly encouraged/persuaded to come visit this “playground” because I would find many different viewpoints (some similar to mine, some very different) so that I could be exposed to the “whole story” of twi. Being a good sport, I ventured over here, and have learned a lot, but my basic beliefs have not changed. It would appear that as I have “not come to my senses”, seen the folly of my beliefs, and joined the other team, I am fair game for name calling and derision. And it begins to feel like that is just a continued effort by the “other team” to beat me down, show me how “stupid” I am, and get me to change my mind.
I guess if I’m to continue here, I’d better go sit on the bleachers in the “Visitors Section”. There I can cheer for my team, as well as say, “Man, what a pretty play! Sure wish our team had made it! Can’t help myself from applauding that player even if he is on the opposing team." I prefer being in an environment where an attempt is made to value everyone and enjoy the diversity, versus one of prejudice and intolerance. And sometimes it feels exactly like that around here. Perhaps I’m just a “sissy” and not capable of playing with the “big boys”.
Suda (not trying to whine, just clearly express myself)
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doojable
Say Suda... You seem to be holding your own quite nicely here. You're no "sissy." ;)
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J0nny Ling0
Suda, your posts are most admirable! But, there is opposition to what you say, because there are some VERY one sided people here. And to give credence to both sides is for some, most reprehensible, sadly enough...
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Jeaniam
You make a valid point. I was thinking of people who post who are so angry and bitter that their posts come across as extremely emotional to the point of fixating on the negatives in the organization and ignoring all the good that was there. I agree with what Jonny Lingo just said.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Suda...After reading many of your posts, I have concluded that you are an honest, caring individual...you make many fine points and your motives are honorable...I think you're a very nice person.
That being said...it's not my intention to hurt anyone's feelings or to chase anyone away...but on the other hand, I can't in good conscience, compromise what I believe or the reasons that I post here. I feel passionate about exposing twi as the cult they are...who mangled God's word and manipulated people...and hurt many in the process...
...So what would you have me do? Hold back my opinions so that I don't offend those who disagree with me?...minimalize the damage done to people's lives so that those who still embrace pfal as being valuable can continue to do so without being challenged?...Play nicey nice with those who defend a man that I detest?
The very nature of this website is volatile...and sometimes harsh. We are dealing with a very personal subject here. I think that to engage in honest debate, one must develope thick skin...I think that Wierwille lied in God's name and crushed a lot of people in the process...I simply cannot soft soap my opinion on that for the sake of civility and "getting along" with people....each person has their own reason for being here...I don't hang out in the chat room to make friends and I've never attended any of the weinee roasts...I come here to state my opinions of a cult that stole 13 years of my life and hurt many people that I care about...I realize that I am blunt and oftentimes caustic in my remarks...I am hopeful that you will not take it personal...like I said...I think you're a nice person and I like you...and I think that you are a valuble member of the GreaseSpot community.
I'm not here to eliminate opposing views...just to state my own....peace.
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doojable
I can see how you feel that way Jeaniam.
I would say that you may have put the cart before the horse in the line I bolded. I'd think that the fixating on the negatives would give the appearance of being extremely emotional...
I think that for some people the negatives are the "sinking sand" that all the "good that was there" was built on. I'm reminded of something we used to say:
People may let us down - but God will never leave us or forsake us.
I credit God and good people who truly had a heart for Him with any good that happened.. I credit the negatives to an organization where men (humans) ruled.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well...You state "...all the good that was there", as if this were a fact. Am I not entitled to believe that there was no good there?...or not enough that warrants mentioning it?...
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George Aar
Here's a little "gem" I mined from eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...em=190135627923
Now don't you think that this person is "sold out" to the teachings they recieved in the cult of their choosing?
Sure, they're keeping right with the Lord, just like they were taught.
And I'm also sure they're embracing a hurtful, dangerous, even STUPID theology.
Just because you STILL believe it, it STILL doesn't make it so.
(and no Larry, I"m an agnostic, never claimed to be an athiest)
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Larry N Moore
My mistake then. However I could make a case that there's really very little difference between the two -- I could but, I won't. ;)
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Suda
Not at all, Groucho. I understand that when people are passionate about a subject and trying to be heard it can call for brutal honesty. Sometimes that is received differently than it was intended. Sometimes people can get carried away and cross the line from civility to name calling, and feel that it is necessary to get someone's attention.
I have no control over other people's actions - nor do I desire such control. But I do have control over my reactions and how I choose to deal with them. If the "playing field" is too much for me, I can choose to sit in the bleachers, go to the snack bar, or hang out in the parking lot chatting with friends.
I don't like being bullied, and when I feel like that is happening, I can walk away. People don't need to change to please me. I can choose who I hang out with, and excuse myself when I don't like their current attitude. And I can rejoin the group when it's settled back down and more to my pleasing.
Some of my favorite posters here hold very different opinions from me. And I think that's why I enjoy them so much. They challenge me to think. You and Oakspear both fall into that category. I may not like all you have to say, nor the way in which you say it from time to time, but I still like hearing what you have to say. You are both fine folks in my book.
Suda
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dmiller
I just posted this on an ex-JW board I'm a member of.
There's a discussion going on there dealing with *limitations* and *boundaries*.
This was appropriate there, and I guess it is here too.
Lyrics to --- "Fifty Miles of Elbow Room"
(Quote)
Artist/Band: Iris Dement
Lyrics for Song: Fifty Miles of Elbow Room
Lyrics for Album: Infamous Angel
Twelve-hundred miles, it's length and breadth,
That four-square city stands.
It's gem-set walls of Jasper shine,
They're not made by human hands.
One-hundred miles it's gates are wide:
Abundant entrance there.
With fifty miles of elbow room,
On either side to spare.
When the gates swing wide on the other side,
Just beyond the sunset sea.
There'll be room to spare as we enter there.
There'll be room for you and room for me.
For the gates are wide on the other side,
Where the fairest flowers bloom.
On the right hand and on the left hand,
Fifty miles of elbow room.
Sometimes I'm cramped and I'm crowded here,
And I long for elbow room.
How I long to reach for altitude,
Where the fairest flowers bloom.
It won't be long before I pass,
Into that city fair.
With fifty miles of elbow room,
On either side to spare.
Oh, when the gates swing wide on the other side,
Just beyond the sunset sea.
There'll be room to spare as we enter there.
There'll be room for you and room for me.
Oh, for the gates are wide on the other side,
Where the fairest flowers bloom.
On the right hand and on the left hand,
Fifty miles of elbow room.
(end quote).
I wish I had the music/video for this, but I don't.
The words will have to suffice.
:)
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johniam
I love tomatoes. But I prefer to take them internally.
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Suda
dmiller,
Very apropos.
Suda
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Deciderator
Given the personal nature of the subject, does that then call for more civility and mutual respect?
It is my impression that some claim to be shocked, shocked! at what is alleged to have taken place and dadgummit they are going to form a posse and go hang the bad guys!, but in fact they are using that as a pretext to attack others.
Notice how when people say what things they took from PFAL, most, if not all of the time no one addresses what the person says was beneficial to them?
No, the attack is on the person and on TWI, VP, etc. in general.
That's not "honest debate," now, is it?
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Bumpy
Grouch...O!, Are you an old gaucho or a grouchy old guy with a few extra tomatoes standing on the mound looking at signals before delivering your next Ouucho!
13 years is a long prison sentence for sure. But there are others who committed even longer years of servitude, no? Remember, you and all the others still signed on the Dr. Viper line, so there was still “free will” as a part of the deal, right? No one truly was forced to go wow, or corps, or any of the other wonderful programs promoted by the way. Maybe that’s part of the reason for so much bitterness? You have nobody to blame for all that lost time...but yourself! And maybe GS is just a place or the only place, to let it out?? <_<
I’m sitting happily in the bleachers if you want a few peanuts! Bump
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Deciderator
It was the watch swinging on a chain that did it...................................................................
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Deciderator
Concentrate on the watch......................back...............and forth............back..........and forth..................you are getting veeeeeery sleepy...........................back...........and forth............................you need my help, don't you? .............................back............and forth......................back.....and forth.................you want to go WOW.....................back...........and forth.............................get on your knees and bark like a dog ...................................back............and forth........................ now roll over ................................ back......and forth ............................ back.........and forth ........................ now act like a chimpanzee ....................... back............and forth..................................VP needs your girlfriend ................. back.........and forth.................................your belly button is in the shirt pocket of Craig Martindale..............................back.........and forth.....................back.......and forth..................sing our national anthem in Swedish..............................back.........and forth......................................... you like to drown kittens .................................back...........and forth................................. you have x-ray vision and can see through women's clothes....................back........and forth.................Look! Here comes Bea Arthur! ................................ back.....and forth .................. back........and forth.............................. from now on when someone asks you for the time you will break out in uproarious laughter for 15 minutes....................back......and forth....................VP needs you to shine his shoes with your tongue.......................back...........and forth.............................back.......and forth................do your Elvis Presley imitation...........................back...........and forth...................back..........and forth........................from now on you will talk like a pirate..........................back..........and forth........................back...........and forth..........................
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waysider
" You do err, not knowing the Scitpures."
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