A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL

[RainbowsGirl]

Page 4 - What’s Happening in this thread?

(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45)

Differing points of view, Preconceived Ideas, Individual Freedom of Choice, Due Respect

The food fight continues, with each side trying to explain more fully their side of the picture - to make it plain and simple enough so that any reader can understand what they are saying and see where they are coming from. But this seems impossible, as posters seem to want to stick with their preconceived ideas about the other’s thoughts, rather than try to hear what the other is saying.

Let me give an example here that has applied here as well in many other threads. When a new poster comes along, uses some “Way Speak” verbiage and hits the hot buttons of “good associated with PFAL” and “due respect accorded to vpw as teacher of PFAL”, they are pigeon-holed as a “pfal/twi/vpw” fan/lover/defender/apologist. And it’s a one-size-fits-all suit they are visualized as wearing, no room for individual variations on the theme, so to speak. “Oh, here’s another newbie we have to rescue and re-teach. He likes pfal so he obviously is unaware that there are errors in it due to vpw twisting scriptures to cover his a$$ to justify his vile, evil lifestyle that hurt and decimated so many. He must believe every word was God-breathed and obviously has no ability to search the scriptures himself, or he would realize all the bunk in pfal. He thinks PFAL and twi teachings = The Word = the Bible. He is incapable of seeing the differences; thinks they are all the same. And since he gives due respect to vpw as the teacher, poor kid, he still respects, admires, and trusts vpw and still sees him sitting on a pedestal. Still sees him as that kind grandfather who only wants the best for his kids. Man, we gotta set him straight.” Where do I get that idea? From many posts on this thread, and very succinctly stated by WordWolf’s post #103 on page 6 But what has Deciderator stated from the beginning? Do his words fit this mold? Not from what I read. (I have strung fragments of different posts together and put in highlights.)

See, he believes some of PFAL, has set aside some of PFAL, and has continued his personal study completely away from PFAL. And I don’t see where Gartmore or other twi-splinters are his only outside sources. He does not specifically state what other avenues he has explored, nor does he specifically state all avenues were spin-offs of twi. But I get the feeling from his posts that he has explored well outside the realms of anything even vaguely associated with twi. Could be wrong, just my impression, as he does not specify. And yet, in a later post Waysider again asks Deciderator never said that. He did say that “It’s the Word, the Word, and Nothing but the Word” was his favorite one-liner and that the greatest gem he received from pfal was how to study the word for himself.

Taking the PFAL class in many ways is analogous to going on a mining expedition. We were presented with lots of information during that 36 hour period. It would be impossible for the average person (like me) to be able to grasp and retain all that information overload in one sitting, or even several. But I sifted through what was being presented, and at least once, usually quite a few times during a night, nuggets of gold or gems would shine, and I would grab them and put them in my pocket (brain). For instance with the law of believing, and what’s available, etc. related to believing for one’s health (and I may be mixing sessions up, but this is what I relate to that session today - what has stuck in my brain), two verses stand out in my mind. I had never heard 3 John 2 prior to PFAL “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” Nor had I heard Psalms 116:15 explained that “precious” meant “costly”. I had often heard about God making you sick to make you humble, that people died because God was bringing his precious child home, and such things, but I never believed them to be true. They just didn't line up with what my gut told me about a loving God. Man, those two verses were an epiphanies to me! And they helped me greatly in my prayer life when I would be sick, knowing that God did not “curse me with sickness” and that healing and deliverance could happen. But most of the other stuff about the law of believing I never accepted as truth. A law is absolute, happens every time. But people die every day, even if they pray to be healed or others pray on their behalf. Granting prayer is God’s business, praying is my business, but I was thankful to know God preferred me to be in health rather than sick. The silver lining to me of being exposed to the bogus teaching of the law of believing, was that it spurred me to research it on my own, to saturate myself in the subject, and then come to my own conclusions about it, and have confidence in what I believe. So yes, I appreciate these two gems I learned in PFAL, but that’s about all I’ve kept out of that whole section of teaching. I kept much less than I discarded. Just as a miner keeps only the “good stuff” he finds, and leaves the piles and piles of stuff he had to sift through behind him. But because I kept two gems, am I now a “law of believing” fan/lover/apologist/defender? I don’t think so. And because I mined numerous gems in PFAL, does it mean I’m a PFAL fan/lover/apologist/defender? I am a fan and a lover of parts of it, but I do not consider myself an apologist nor a defender, because I readily point out the errors and make no bones that some scriptures were twisted and misapplied. Do I think the PFAL class is valuable? Am I glad I sat through it a number of times? Would I encourage others to take it if and only if I had the opportunity to sit with them and advise them of the parts that I disagree with and let them feel free to ask questions about anything that didn’t sit well with them? Yes. Why? Because to date I have not found another source or package that presents the wealth of information found in PFAL. In fact, I sat with my son as he took it several years ago. And every night he had questions for the instructor/class leader that were answered in straightforward, honest terms, and he and I had discussions about what we liked and disliked, agreed/disagreed with, etc. He, too, gained a lot from the class, but has discarded and forgotten the portions he did not feel were relevant. The scriptures alone speak volumes. And pointing out the misapplication and misinterpretations is not difficult. And like I said, some of the discarded portions were excellent jumping off points for things I wanted to study, so in that way, they were of benefit, also, even though I came to very different conclusions regarding the subjects. The choice is not between liking all or liking none of pfal. The choice between what to hold on to, and what to discard. It’s not all good, or all bad; it’s a mixture. And, in my opinion, it’s worth sifting through the sand and rubble to mine the gems.

Ever go to a party and meet someone new and from their vocabulary in their conversations decide “Hey, bet they are in the legal field, or the health care field” or something like that? Happens to me often, and just as often they confirm my suspicions without me ever having to ask. Their profession will come up in conversation. I find it’s also true that clergy and very active lay people incorporate a lot of Bible speak or religious speak into their conversations. Why? Because that’s where their “head” is most of the time, at work and at home, since they most often choose books, movies, etc. to enjoy in their off-time that compliments their interests. And much of their verbiage sounds a lot like Way Speak to me. Deciderator professes that his passion is studying the scriptures. So it seems very natural and logical to me that his vocabulary will contain a lot of Bible-type speak, much that is similar to our way days. Yet, I don’t consider him to be a “twit-head” or “still brainwashed” or “Way brained”. But it seems others may draw that conclusion.

As for those he claim his adulation of vpw, it contradicts what he has said. He was accused of wanting to cover up the sins of vpw. Sounded to me like he just felt no need to uncover them any further himself as the gist of the abuse threads was clearly summarized here. He never denied they happened. He gave real insight into why he felt no need to wade through them, put himself in the place of judge or jury, and come up with his guess of guilt or innocence for each accusation. This is probably why he seems to have a real distaste for accusations without the other person being allowed to present their side. And that can never happen with vpw since he’s dead. And in the absence of a “legal, guilty” verdict, he is not going to pass judgment on the man on each thing he has been accused of. Knowing the basics of the facts seems to be sufficient for him to believe vpw did indeed act in a sexually reprehensible manner and inflict great harm on others; he does not need to read the details for further “evidence”. He states he knew to expect like things from powerful, charismatic men. And though he does not say “like vpw” it is inferred. I think people get tripped up on the little word IF. In responding to Rascal he says Some interpret that to mean “If they happened (I personally don’t think they did, they are mere accusations by hysterical women living in their past)”. But he seems to be saying since they have not yet been proven in a court of law, I must accord vpw the legally proscribed “innocent until proven guilty” benefit and will not make the claim they absolutely did happen just as stated, thus, his the use of the word IF. He has repeatedly said he knows people were hurt in the ministry. Even that his twig coordinator protected his twigees, and protection is needed against evil, not good. No where has he said the accusations were false, just that they are one-sided. This is a similar argument to what WhiteDove gives later in the thread. From WhiteDove’s posts, I gather that he strongly believes the abuse happened, but cautions against the misuse of legal terms such as proof/verification/judgment with non-legal definitions. On that different day he can say with authority, yes it did happen. It has been proven and is no longer just an issue of my gut feel based on a large body of testimony or trusting one party’s side of the accusations. He can’t say it is truth, an absolute; but he can believe (subjective, no need for objective proof) that they are. And he seems to believe just that. The numerous similar accounts give great weight to the accusations. But unless the abuser or one of his accessories or someone else who was an eyewitness to the actual abuse comes forward and says “Yes I was there the night this happened to M. I saw the drugs being slipped into her drink. I saw her drink it. Later, we heard moaning from the back of the motorcoach and peeked in to investigate. VPW was penetrating her, she was trying to resist, but the drugs had performed their intended task, and he was able to overpower her struggles. Later, I had to change and clean his sheets, and the evidence was there.” or something to that effect, it cannot be verified in a legal sense. But it can be believed to be true. And even if one believes it to be true, without a “legal pronouncement”, they may be of the school of thought that “if” is the proper word to be used. Raf could probably give some good input on this subject. As a journalist by profession, if he were to say “The sexual abuse carried out by vpw”, indicating the abuse is an absolute certainty, that could land him in hot water due to slander as he was not an eyewitness and there has been no legal verdict of “guilty”. He could avoid that by saying “If the alleged sexual abuse was carried out by vpw”. To stay “out of the soup” legally, one must be very careful how they phrase statements about accusations. To some, such phrasing is not only a legal obligation, but a moral and ethical one, also. To some it is splitting hairs, to others there is a huge and significant difference. Some may not like the stance Deciderator has taken on the abuse issue, and will continue to say he denies it since he will not state it absolutely happened. But it seems like a waste of time and energy at this point to try and persuade him to change his mind. If people feel backed into a corner, they are less likely to accept suggestions. Rather, they tend to walk in the opposite direction.

Because one chooses not to read the accounts of abuse, and does not state emphatically “Yes I believe them”, it does not mean they do not have care and concern for the victims. Deciderator demonstrates his care and concern by offering them the advice he holds dear and lives by in his own life ‘don’t dwell in the darkness, dwell in the light’. It’s the best advice he knows to give. Does it mean it is sound? Nope, certainly not in the case of sexual abuse. He illustrated his advice using the example of making a clean break after his divorce. He didn’t dwell on the “evils” of his ex, he dropped it. And after time, when they met again, the “negative” feelings did not resurface and they enjoyed a short visit together. It drew some interesting responses, all of which were quite valid. Rascal again clearly stated her passions, pointing out that we as a body should care about those still ensnared in twi and feels that many here at the GSC share her passion and see it as “

She is clearly upset that he does not see the validity of her passion and encourages him (as others do also) to familiarize himself with the carnal side of vpw and cgeer, so that he can understand the foundation for their zeal. She goes so far as to say that anyone who chooses to ignore it is acting in a cowardly and unconscionable manner. What I see going on here is people having differing passions and each fulfilling their particular function in the Body of Christ. He chooses to heal by holding forth the truth of the Word, she chooses to heal by warning the unwary. Both are noble callings and necessary functions in the body. We can respect each other’s passions without feeling offended if someone places a lower “personal” priority on ours and a higher one on theirs. That’s what is to be expected as we each must choose the battles we wish to fight. However, as Deciderator is not ready to look into the dark side yet, some feel a need to persuade him to do so. Give him some time. He may decide to look into it, he may not, but he has the freedom to choose if and when he delves into it.

As the attempts at persuasion continue, and Deciderator continues to try and explain his position, he triggers the hot button I’ve done rotten things, you probably have to. He points out that Saul was a mass murderer (regarded the “worst” crime by society at large) yet his fellow Christians were able to forgive him. Some people seem to interpret such comparisons as slighting the severity of vpw et. al.’s deeds, to me, he’s still trying to explain his position and taking an extreme position for emphasis. And, as noted previously, forgiveness is another hot button for a myriad of reasons. He hits the “move on, shed the bitterness” hot button. Again, easier for those whose hearts weren’t shattered and souls stolen. Unless he chooses to read the accounts, he will remain unaware of the depth of the hurt, and why it takes a long time to recover. Seems Paul was absent from the early church for at least 10 years (and I think closer to 20, but I don’t remember for sure) before he returned to be among them. It obviously took him a while to focus on the scriptures and forgive himself. And it took the believers of that day and time that long to be able to forgive him for killing their loved ones, also. It takes God and time both to heal a broken heart. But again, it’s his choice whether or not to read them and find out the details rather than be satisfied with the summaries he’s already read.

Deciderator also notes that he knows those trying to persuade him have honorable intentions, and he appreciates that. And the food fight continues.

Let’s explore the concept of due respect. It means the respect that has been earned via some action. It does not mean admiration, reverence, worship. Best analogy I can think of (being from Old South heritage) is with Melanie in Gone With The Wind. During Reconstruction, the leaders and shakers of the “old south brigade” decided they needed to go out to shantytown and clean it out, i.e., murder the ringleaders and set the whole place afire to force all those “no counts” out of their neighborhood. Moral? Not in my opinion, but to them, the right “their safety” justified the wrong “murder, burn out”. The old scoundrel (but somewhat loveable scoundrel, because he was honest about who he was and made no bones about it), Rhett Butler is able to save them from apprehension by the law and certain death by hanging, by saying they were at the wh*re house with he and his friend, Belle Watling. Well, Belle was nothing but trash, a madam for heaven’s sake, no morals, a disgrace to mankind. The wives, and other proper Southern ladies, were thankful their husband’s necks had been saved, but hated that they had to live with the disgrace of saying those good men had patronized the bordello. It was disgusting, dirty, and contemptible; almost better their men had died than have to live with such shame. And, by George, that scoundrel Rhett had purposely chosen to take them to Belle’s just so he could make a laughing stock out of the “old guard”. Well, they were tricked, so there was no way in he!! they would be “under obligation” to Rhett nor Belle. They had schemed and tricked their way into “deserving” gratitude from decent folks, therefore no gratitude was necessary and, by God, they wouldn’t give it to them. Noone, except Melanie. She was grateful to Belle for having saved her husband’s neck, and was proud to be “under obligation” (you did good for me, I will be pleased to return the favor to you) to Belle, even sent her a note saying she planned to “come to call” (go visit Belle at her home - which of course was in the bordello! - because, culturally, it was the requisite action to show thankfulness and respect). She did not approve of Belle’s lifestyle, in fact, was repulsed and horrified by it, but she was thankful and appreciative that Belle saved her husband’s life. She had due respect for what Belle had done to “bless” (yes, I think that’s the best description) her life. Some people thought Melanie was just a “ninny” and had lost her mind for feeling thankful and showing due respect. I think she was doing the right thing and showed great courage in acting on her convictions and what her heart told her was the right thing to do, despite what other’s thought of her. Poster’s here, such as I, can have due respect for vpw because he was the person who presented truths of God’s word to us that liberated us and helped us immensely on our personal spiritual journey. We have other’s that are accorded that same due respect for their helpfulness along our way. Some we do respect, admire, and love as human beings, also. For me personally, vpw is no longer worthy in my eyes of those attributes, but instead I feel contempt and horror for the things he did behind the scenes. His actions forfeited the respect I once had for him. However, he will always have my due respect, and nothing will ever change that. But I do not feel that makes me a vpw lover/defender/apologist/fan; those are untrue characterizations, in my opinion.

Lastly, here at GSC those who are pfal/twi/vpw rejecters have chosen many “spiritual” paths since their departure. Some are Christian, and within that framework may be independents (not affiliated with any organized group) or be aligned with Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, etc. churches. Some have returned to the Jewish faith, either with or without a belief in Jesus Christ. Others have chosen non Judeo-Christian groups such as Wiccans, or those into the metaphysical, or others. Some have become agnostics or atheists. And all their choices are allowed and respected, even if they are disturbing to some posters here. If pfal/twi/vpw rejecters are allowed such latitude and freedom of choice, why must those who have positive things to say about pfal/twi/vpw be pigeonholded as “Way brained twits that believe every word ever spoken by vpw, and still worship him”? Why shouldn’t they be given the same courtesy as the rejecters, to be able to express their individual thoughts and choices, versus being viewed as only and entirely supportive pfal/twi/vpw? Is it merely a black or white issue, or is there room for other colors in there too? (Say purple, for instance? It's my favorite.)

Don’t know what page this thread is up to now, but that’s all I have the energy to say right now. Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts and concerns.

Suda

Thank You Suda

[anotherDan]

Suda, Thanks for your analysis posts. Your attitude and approach reminds me of some of the beatitudes!

[J0nny Ling0]

Personally, I look back at my time in twi as a waste of time...I am not a "has been"...I am a "Now is".

Come on now Groucho, I do not consider my whole life as a "has been". You took what I said out of context. The context of the statement I made was about someone saying to me that I could "get back in gear" as a minister again, and even more specifically about praying for or ministering healing. I am a "Now Is" guy too. :)

Edited August 8, 2007 by Jonny Lingo

[doojable]

Come on now Groucho, I do not consider my whole life as a "has been". You took what I said out of context. The context of the statement I made was about someone saying to me that I could "get back in gear" as a minister again, and even more specifically about praying for or ministering healing. I am a "Now Is" guy too. :)

Hey, if Jonny wants to consider himself a "has been", who are we to disagree?

All joking aside, to look back at your time with twi and to now consider yourself a "has been" because you no longer are doing what you did in twi...is very revealing in and of itself.

Personally, I look back at my time in twi as a waste of time...I am not a "has been"...I am a "Now is"...my life is better in every regard...financially, spiritually, mentally, etc, etc.

Jonny, I put these two side by side for a purpose. I know that Groucho was poking fun, but he also made a valid point.

I know that what Dot said to you resonated in me as well. When I left "The Mother Ship Nash" I felt freed. I was free to minister wherever and to whomever. (Excuse the bad grammar.)

No more branches, twigs, false divisions. My ministry was released (and I say that NOT as ordained clergy - because I wasn't - but a daughter of God that wanted to really serve.)

I see myself as "ministering where I'm at." There are no boundaries, no assignments, no nametags, no classes, no forms to fill out.

That makes every moment a "now" moment and the "good ole days" are the days I'm living right now - not sometime 30 plus years ago.

I'm pretty certain you feel about the same way...

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Come on now Groucho, I do not consider my whole life as a "has been". You took what I said out of context. The context of the statement I made was about someone saying to me that I could "get back in gear" as a minister again, and even more specifically about praying for or ministering healing. I am a "Now Is" guy too. :)

I didn't say that you considered your whole life as a "has been"...my comments were within the context that you were talking about...my point was that being a "minister" in twi was bogus to begin with.

[WhiteDove]

Suda your analysis should go into a new GreaseSpot category required reading before labeling anyone as a “pfal/twi/vpw” fan/lover/defender/apologist worshiper.

This is a similar argument to what WhiteDove gives later in the thread. From WhiteDove’s posts, I gather that he strongly believes the abuse happened, but cautions against the misuse of legal terms such as proof/verification/judgment with non-legal definitions.

Thank you Suda I just knew someone would get the point eventually I'll also add nor did I ever ask anyone to prove or for proof either just that there was only one side of the record on the table and it without the other was inconclusive for me to verify. What my personal opinion is or is not may differ but my opinion is not verifiable either.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

I posted that something important I took from PFAL was "THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD!"

That caused a lot of negative reaction, but I don't think any of them disagreed with the point.

I disagree with the point.

Suda, that was very well done.

When all this arguing is going on, the Bible remains a closed book...

Again...this is NOT a Christian website...if you want to open your bible, go to church, twig or an actual Christian website

[Larry N Moore]

I disagree with the point.

Groucho how can you possibly disagree that (at least for) Deciderator "The Word and nothing but the Word" was what he took from PFAL?

You may NOT have taken that from PFAL but you can't say you disagree that that was what Deciderator took from it. Or do you disagree that his comment solicited negative reactions?

Again...this is NOT a Christian website...if you want to open your bible, go to church, twig or an actual Christian website

Sheesh! It may NOT be a "Christian website" but there sure is A LOT of discussion about Christianity and doctrinal matters -- even in a forum that's NOT suppose to cater to it. If you don't like it perhaps YOU should go somewhere else.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Suda, that was very well done.

A major reason I have refrained from the all-out attack on Mr. Wierwille, Mr. Martindale and others is not because I idolize them.

I try (with varying success) not to make personal attacks on Christians because even the worst of them are God's children and stand righteous and holy without blame in love before Him.

To say otherwise is to commit idolatry by exalting my word above that of my heavenly Father.

So who says they are Christians?...holy and without blame? My bible says that we SHOULD be holy and without blame...unfortunately Mr. Wierwille and Mr. Martindale are/were NOT holy and were to blamed for the damage done to other people.

I refuse to sweep under the rug, the truth of what happened via religious platitudes.

[doojable]

"IT'S THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!"

That is more than a cliche or even a principle, there is also a lesson in it, especially for those who were loyal to a person or an organization.

That is the greatest lesson I took from PFAL, followed closely by the research principles.

Here's my story:

About '85 I met a couple of WOWs and began going to a twig here in Northern Virginia. I wasn't interested in joining anything, I just needed and wanted answers and wasn't getting them elsewhere.

The chap running the twig taught me well. Mostly it was material from the collaterals. He taught me what I needed to know and soon gave me a Strong's and I got to working the Word on my own.

I was getting answers and understanding and at times that teaching would ring like a bell.

It was 2 years before I took PFAL and by then I'd been taught it all and a bunch more.

John Lynn came down and there were branch and limb things going on, but I wasn't that interested so when changes were made they didn't affect me much.

I just wanted the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word.

I didn't view certain people as celebrities the way some did. Belonging to the right club wasn't something I was pursuing, either.

Later I realized that twig coordinator was protecting us from it all.

All I wanted to know was the Bible.

Time went by and the twig coordinator moved on and appointed me to takeover.

The branch and limb weren't too happy about that, but too bad.

I was the man for the job, period.

They weren't too happy with the way I filled out the blue ABS forms because I didn't say who gave what (unless it was a check). I eventually told the people in the twig the branch and limb wanted the details and how I just thought it was none of their business.

The guy who taught me also gave me a bunch of material taught by Chris Geer and a few others, but it was a while, just before he left, that he told me about the politics and upheaval going on.

I just stayed out of it and did my best to bless the twig and keep them out of it all as well and keep the focus on puting forth the light of the Word.

What was taking place wasn't blessing anyone nor was it making God's Word known.

Sometime in there I got to understand that the Word must not just be rightly divided academically in terms of the Bible, but it must also be rightly divided in terms of when and where and how it is presented. Imagine Peter and John teaching perfectly on the Return to the guy they healed.

What I was getting from the limb and branch was not helping me or my twig know God's Word. I did, however get blessed by Larry Panarello when he was there.

Then in 1990 they wanted us to make banners for the Rock and I put on that bad boy what I wanted people to read. It read "THE WORD! THE WORD! NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!" That was my message to HQ. Nothing more needed to be said.

It was put on display up there and soon after I went to the limb and branch and told them I was going to Gartmore for 6 weeks to get what they were no longer offering, and what I knew I needed to help me bless my twig.

I didn't quit.

I told them I would be happy to stay with them but noooooo, that just wouldn't do. I was hoping to stick around and maybe things would get better.

So I went to Gartmore and learned a lot and had a great time and met some wonderful people. I got the light I needed.

The twig had some people peel off to TWI and it was fine with me. In America we've got to be free to do as we want.

I still fellowship with some who I met at Gartmore and others I have met since then.

There were difficult times, but by concentrating on what was important - the Word, the Word and nothing but God's wonderful matchless Word, I was spared some of what others went through.

That twig coordinator who taught me wasn't perfect, none of us are. But he taught me to work the Word and not work the collaterals or anything else unlss I looked on them as just what one person worked which may or may not be in error.

There were some things that took me longer to understand and some things I did not agree with. But one of the things that has stuck with me that I'd like to share is something that twig coordinator used to say.

I'd go by his house and maybe want to tell hm about some ridiculous thing from the religious realm. Maybe something wrong a particular denomination or a tv preacher had said. He'd stop me and say,"Wait a minute. Is this going to bless me?"

Of course invariably the answer was no and he refused to listen to any more.

Focusing on darkness doesn't bring light andpicking on the errors of others only satisfies the ego.

As VP would say, That's right!

I haven't read where the church in Ephesus went around criticizing and arguing with and dwelling on the error of the worshippers of Diana. None of their wisecracking survives and if they disrupted meetings to "rescue" people from that cult, I am unaware of it.

No, the church grew and prospered and was blessed by focusing on the light.

They held forth the Word and taught it the best they could and those seeking the light found it.

I have always believed that if someone is really hungry that God will get someone to them to feed that hunger and they will leave darkness to come to the light.

I found this board by accident and it is my opinion that those who spend so much time and energy cracking on The Way and various individuals and what was published and in PFAL are largely spinning their wheels and feeding their ego more than anything else. Tha time and effort could be better spent holding forth the light of the Word and blessing God's people that way.

I believe the thing to do is concentrate on holding forth what is right and believing God to get you in front of those in the Way or any other outfit you think is in error.

Be confident in the Truth and be confident that God will help people get to it.

Here's one more thing I learned on the way to trust God to do - cover my eff-ups. I'm not relying on Him to do so - let me explain.

One time that really sticks out in my mind, I had taught something that was wrong - really wrong. I can't recall just what it was (and I'm not saying it was my only mistake), but later that day or the next I realized I had really pulled a boner.

I felt rotten and embarrassed.

So I got on the phone to everyone right away to tell them to scratch out what I had said in the middle of a teaching and to explain what I should have said and all.

Get this - not a one of them heard my mistake or wrote down the verse I had plopped in there wrongly or anything.

I don't know what took place other than about a half dozen people didn't hear what I said. It wasn't because I'm a boring teacher. I'm pretty good.

But there is a lesson here about God working to get His people the Truth.

I've looked around here and seen a bunch of what's been put out and I just don't see how it is profitable.

Why not just hold forth the Truth to the best of your abilities and trust God to get people to you who are hungry?

After all, the ones who aren't hungry for the Truth of God's Word you hold aren't going to listen anyhoodles.

I don't care if what I was taught was plagiarized from someone - hell, that chap probably stoled it from someone else for all I know.

All I want is God's Word, and if I hear it from VP Wierwille or L. Craig Martindale or Benny Hinn, I don't care because I'm not into the celebrity worship nor am I a good person because of the religious club I belong to.

And we make it worse when we hold them up like rock stars because that works against any inclination they may have to be a servant.

I am reminded of something that Chris Geer said on one of those History of the Mystery tapes. He said the church is still hurting from Barnabas going astray and I believe people are stil hurting over events of the last 25 years. In the six weeks I was at Gartmore I never heard Geer, Townsend or any of the others make cracks about what was going on and in fellowship with the other 40 students it wasn't discussed either, at least not in my earshot. I recall being a little frustrated because there was a question or two I had. What happened when I asked or tried to broach the topic was the light of th Word was held forth, and not on that topic, either. I didn't need to know any of that stuff and I don't have a need to read these documents and other stuff posted here.

Slinging tomatoes just makes it worse, no matter how much cause you have to do so.

There is only one thing to do, and that is to get back to

THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!

I pulled up Deciderator's post just so that we all know the context he put it in.

I won't credit TWI with a lot of the good in this post. I will say that there were some really, really good people in "Cid's" life during that time.

Deciderator - God took care of you and your heart. I know you say "The Word, the Word and Nothing but The Word," - but from where I stand, I'd be saying, "God is God and Jesus is Lord."

It's more than "The Word." You gotta have heart and a willingness to love and learn. You had that and God honored it.

VPW and LCM were just footnotes in it all...

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Groucho how can you possibly disagree that (at least for) Deciderator "The Word and nothing but the Word" was what he took from PFAL?

You may NOT have taken that from PFAL but you can't say you disagree that that was what Deciderator took from it. Or do you disagree that his comment solicited negative reactions?

Sheesh! It may NOT be a "Christian website" but there sure is A LOT of discussion about Christianity and doctrinal matters -- even in a forum that's NOT suppose to cater to it. If you don't like it perhaps YOU should go somewhere else.

Point taken...I read into his remarks. I do not agree that it's "The word, the word and nothing but the word"...from my point of view, that's what's called making the bible your idol instead of experiencing God in your life. If that's what Deciderator took away from it, good for him.

As far as your other remarks...Many people here attempt to justify their actions by stating their opinions on what the bible says and oftentimes, the implication is that we should all heed those exhortations...I am merely pointing out that there are many here who no longer subscribe to this theology (or their version of it), and that "preaching" to the other posters is oftentimes an annoyance...this is NOT twig...as far as me going somewhere else, I would prefer to stay here and point out that I don't like it. :)

People are free to post their opinions here...you can sing the praises of twi and applaud the virtues of pfal all day long...you can talk about the wonderful things that Vic Wierwille did for you in your life and you can encourage people to "renew their minds"...go for it!...HOWEVER, I am free to post my opinions also...which is what I do.

My suggestion to find a Christian website, go to church or find a twig was not an exhortation to leave the GreaseSpot...it was an attempt to encourage people to find a more "user friendly" place for their religious views in addition to posting here.

and by the way...there is a doctrinal forum here for those who enjoy discussing their necro destiny and other matters of a religious nature.

Edited August 8, 2007 by GrouchoMarxJr

[Larry N Moore]

HOWEVER, I am also free to post my opinions also...which is what I do.

You most certainly are "free to post [your] opinion. And sometimes that opinion includes biblical doctrine such as:

My bible says that we SHOULD be holy and without blame

.

Any time you voice what YOU think the Bible says you're doing what you're telling others not to do here at GS.

I've seen several threads started in this particular forum which actually belongs down (called the basement) Doctrinal forum. I've only seen one of them moved down there. Personally, I think if you're going to enforce that rule on one topic you should enforce it on all topics that touch on doctrinal matters. But then, that can be very time-consuming for an Administrator -- so I wouldn't nit-pick over such trivial stuff.

[George Aar]

"I try (with varying success) not to make personal attacks on Christians because even the worst of them are God's children and stand righteous and holy without blame in love before Him."

I think this type of sentiment is where religion REALLY starts to go wrong. So what about the rest of the inhabitants of earth? Well, they're dogpoop. Do whatever you like with them, rape, pillage, make war on 'em, after all, it's not like they WORTH anything like us good (insert your dogmatic affiliation here).

And as for the "It's the Word, word, word, word, .... " screed, does that even mean anything? It's just a slogan that imparts little or no real commincation, near as I can tell. But, whatever blows your skirt up...

[J0nny Ling0]

My suggestion to find a Christian website, go to church or find a twig was not an exhortation to leave the GreaseSpot...it was an attempt to encourage people to find a more "user friendly" place for their religious views in addition to posting here.

This place may not be so user friendly to people who still believe in the Bible, but, you must admit that the Bible, wrongly taught or not was very much central to our experiences while in The Way. So, don't be surprised if the subject pops up over and over here at the GSCafe. This site is not dedicated to those who now no longer believe in the Bible. As you know, we find people from A to Z here. From Mike To George Arr, and naturally, we should all be welcome here, along with our opinions. And, I did note that you, Groucho said; "in addition to posting here". I know you didn't say "leave". But no doubt the Bible will come up very often here, and with passion no doubt...

Edited August 8, 2007 by Jonny Lingo

[Larry N Moore]

"I try (with varying success) not to make personal attacks on Christians because even the worst of them are God's children and stand righteous and holy without blame in love before Him."

I think this type of sentiment is where religion REALLY starts to go wrong. So what about the rest of the inhabitants of earth? Well, they're dogpoop. Do whatever you like with them, rape, pillage, make war on 'em, after all, it's not like they WORTH anything like us good (insert your dogmatic affiliation here).

And as for the "It's the Word, word, word, word, .... " screed, does that even mean anything? It's just a slogan that imparts little or no real commincation, near as I can tell. But, whatever blows your skirt up...

George, correct me if I'm wrong but, aren't you an atheist? If so -- has any Christian participating on GS called you "dogpoop" or not worth anything?

[GrouchoMarxJr]

I very seldom quote bible verses in this forum...I chose that opprotunity to do so because there seemed to be a "rebuke" directed towards those of us who were pointing out the evils of twi...he misquoted the verse and I was merely correcting him as to what the verse actually said.

Besides...I never told anyone not to quote bible verses...I may have expressed my opinion about them doing so...but in reality, I have no authority here to tell anyone not to do something.

[Larry N Moore]

but in reality, I have no authority here to tell anyone not to do something.

I suppose that's always something worth remembering whenever you're inclined to tell someone else what they can or cannot post.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

This place may not be so user friendly to people who still believe in the Bible, but, you must admit that the Bible, wrongly taught or not was very much central to our experiences while in The Way. So, don't be surprised if the subject pops up over and over here at the GSCafe. This site is not dedicated to those who now no longer believe in the Bible. As you know, we find people from A to Z here. From Mike To George Arr, and naturally, we should all be welcome here, along with our opinions. And, I did note that you, Groucho said; "in addition to posting here". I know you didn't say "leave". But no doubt the Bible will come up very often here, and with passion no doubt...

Right you are Jonny...the idea that the bible was wrongly taught in twi is a reoccuring theme here at the GreaseSpot...

and again, there's a doctrinal forum for those who wish to discuss biblical doctrine...which I think is a valuable service for people.

I would guess that most posters here are still Christians (myself included)...but irregardless of a person's belief system (or lack thereof), they are welcome here. I began my discussion here with addressing the question why people who say positive things about twi are criticized...I drew the analogy of saying positive things about war in an anti war website...perhaps it would be more appropriate for me to draw the analogy of speaking positive things about Hitler in a holocaust survival website?

...and I understand that the bible was central to experiences in twi and that's why I passionately like to point out that twi taught wrong doctrine that hurt a lot of people...and when someone defends twi doctrine, I am free to state an opposing view...I do not state my opinions on atheism here, nor wicca, nor catholicism...nor Hari Krishna, nor the religion of Hank worship...I come to the "About the Way" forum to discuss the Way...and attempting to stay within the context of the mission statement, I point out the "other side" of twi...those who defend twi are like the guy who sticks his head through the wall at the carnival and everyone throws tomatoes at him...and no one should be surprised when that happens.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

I suppose that's always something worth remembering whenever you're inclined to tell someone else what they can or cannot post.

If you suppose that my words are worth remembering, then by all means, remember them...however, I don't think that I have ever told anyone what they can or cannot post.

Perhaps you are confusing my disagreement with what they post as me telling them what they can post...

[skyrider]

And as for the "It's the Word, word, word, word, .... " screed, does that even mean anything? It's just a slogan that imparts little or no real commincation, near as I can tell. But, whatever blows your skirt up...

One of the problems with this slogan, cliche, mantra..........is that far removed from its context in pfal, its ambiguity has no real meaning. IIRC in the pfal format, vpw was talking about the importance of studying the Scripture and no reading around it by this commentary and that article, and this guy and that Dr. so-and-so.

40 years removed from its pfal filming ---- "It's the Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" ---- this cliche has been butchered hundreds of times AND leveraged against believers to refrain from independent study/research and....dadgummit, just re-research pfal.

After the 1978 episode wherein wierwille and martindale confronted three 8th corps guys and their research work...... MORE INTENSE SCRUTINY from the bigwigs to keep others "within the framework of wierwille's pfal class material." Emphatically, corps were told to keep their thinking and research papers bordered around work that vpw had already done..!!!

So........as things evolved, IT REALLY WASN'T The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word...in its slight-of-hand reference, it really meant..."It's PFAL, PFAL and nothing but PFAL."

Add to this the absent-Christ doctrine in twi.........and WIERWILLE WAS SHELVING MUCH OF THE WHOLE TRUTH that true believers are to abide in. Check out the Book of Acts and see if Jesus Christ is absent!!!

Guess I just never believed in the wholesale indoctrination of academic/bible study as an end-all approach to God's approval. YMMV

[Larry N Moore]

those who defend twi are like the guy who sticks his head through the wall at the carnival and everyone throws tomatoes at him...and no one should be surprised when that happens.

I'm not surprised but, I would question the appropriateness of the action IF your stated purpose is to help others get out from under the influence of TWI. What profit is there in lobbing tomatoes at someone who still has a TWI mindset if what you want to do is sincerely help someone? I mean, if I was still under the TWI mindset and someone started tossing tomatoes at me for being so my natural (instinctual) reaction would be to pull my head back out. All you've accomplished by throwing tomatoes at someone of that mindset is cut off the possibility that eventually they might come to see it from your perspective.

Edited August 8, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[Larry N Moore]

If you suppose that my words are worth remembering, then by all means, remember them...however, I don't think that I have ever told anyone what they can or cannot post.

Perhaps you are confusing my disagreement with what they post as me telling them what they can post...

Are these . . .

Again...this is NOT a Christian website...if you want to open your bible, go to church, twig or an actual Christian website

. . . not your words Groucho? If they are, I don't see how you can interpret them any other way then telling someone to go elsewhere or trying to limit what they choose to post.

You're doing a bit of a back-peddling act -- in my opinion. Own your words.

[rascal]

Well HERE are things from MY perspective....

I disagreed with a post...a SINGLE post cid did about the word the word and nothing but the word was all that was important any more...I gave my reason for disagreement......I told why...that if it was a big deal..or even remotely important...then one supposed that those who lived by that creed wouldn`t have been capable of indulging/endorsing/perpetrating such heinous acts against our innocent brothers and sisters....assuming that maybe the poster was ignorant of vp`s dirty little secrets.

THIS was where it got nasty....

I was attacked as a liar By cid ....for saying these men did this. I was THEN attacked as someone unable to allow something nice to be said about twi.....not so....(this was one point of one post I addressed...I didn`t disagree with any others) A few references were thrown in concerning my mental health and stability...

You then had people come forward and say that I wasn`t lying and provided links to marshas story

You then had people calling marsha an annonymous account of a probable liar...

You had people come forth and say...no I knew her and her account rings true...

You had people call into question THESE peoples veracity..

MORE people came forth with stories of heartbreaking personal abuse at the hands of these men...to coorborate the original account....

and when it becomes obvious that the stories are irrefutable....

Then you have the people who were first called liars...THEN attacked for derailing the thread when defending themselves and points....THEN attacked as intolerant whiners and complainers....you have posters unable to accept vp`s damnable guilt....accusing the rape victims of poor judgement, of lack of something for not walking away...of just plain being stupid basically....(this callousness still boggles my mind)

SOMEWHERE sandwitched in between all of that there were people getting necessary information to begin healing from years of silent shame...People after decades were finally understanding for the first time *why me* and that it wasn`t just me....tears ...healing...pieces of the puzzle falling into place....

You have bullies that post for no other reason than to obstruct the information being presented and try to bring into question the veracity/sanity/spirituality of the people who presented the information....

You CAN disagree without trying to slaughter someone...It never was a pi$$ing contest the one who shouts the loudest or intimidates people into silence...strikes the most blows ...etc is the winner...

I personally think that the bullying here was extreme and the harassment ugly. It was inexcusable coming from supposed christian brothers and sisters.

It never ceases to suprise me ... the deliberately cruel hurtfull things that are said because someone doesn`t like your pov. I just don`t get it.

Yeah it hurts feelings to be called delusional, pychotic, attention seeking, liar, perpetually whining victim, pig making farting noises....etc...to have ones motives, character and veracity called into question from folks that claim to be my brothers and sisters...part of the same body...the hurt becomes espescially keen...I don`t know...maybe it ties in with how one is able to excuse the evidence of vpw and leaders lives.

So now finally....this thread comes down to people coming along and with the nobelest of intentions....some how attempting to present the inexcusable behavior...some how understandable...and acceptible...

Wake up friends....IF we want to claim to be christian...IF we want to be something more than just one who brandishes the lable....

Love God and love your neighbor...if we aren`t doing Those two things...no matter what we percieve that provocation....doctrine....(the word the word and nothing BUT the word) ..then something is wrong with our priorities, our understanding, our motives, etc.

I have to say...that in spite of it all....people managed to get information presented that brought healing and closure to other people. ....for that I personally am humbly gratefull.

Edited August 8, 2007 by rascal

[Sunesis]

I think Oakspear had a very valid point here:

QUOTE

Let me give an example here that has applied here as well in many other threads. When a new poster comes along, uses some “Way Speak” verbiage and hits the hot buttons of “good associated with PFAL” and “due respect accorded to vpw as teacher of PFAL”, they are pigeon-holed as a “pfal/twi/vpw” fan/lover/defender/apologist.

I disagree with you there. Not that these labels aren't used pecipitously at times, but my observation is that those newbies who "uses some “Way Speak” verbiage and hits the hot buttons of “good associated with PFAL” and “due respect accorded to vpw as teacher of PFAL”, get tarred and feathered and labelled predominantly when they make a judgement against those of us who have no use for Wierwille and PFAL, or offer some "helpful" advice about how we should "get back to the Word", or move on or be positive or whatever, with no consideration as to why we feel the way we do, and with the condescending attitude that we have somehow "lost our way".

I wish there were a place for newbies to go to kind of get a catch up, or sense of the history of this place.

I don't care what peoples opinions are on anything - I really don't, but, it just never fails, the nasty, condescending crusader "fighting for the Lord" against those who don't wear the same rose colored glasses always shows up to set us straight.

Edited August 8, 2007 by Sunesis

[Ham]

those who defend twi are like the guy who sticks his head through the wall at the carnival and everyone throws tomatoes at him...and no one should be surprised when that happens.

*Tomatos, tomatos.. can't have a thread without tomatos..*

*I'll take a dozen*

*here mister, that's ten bucks..*

*Tomatos, tomatos.. gotta have your tomatos...*

Sorry.. I ran out of bricks and purses..