I do, however see value in the process of talking things out.
I agree. However, I think there comes a point where "talking things out" takes a sharp turn to the left and all it does is reinforce your pain and/or bitterness. I'm not sure where that point is for each individual but I do have a point where I personally get weary of hearing the same thing over and over and over again. It's at that point that it's time for me to move on. It's at that point that I will not be able to help in the process. It's at that point that I realize I'll probably only make things worse.
We get to read about a lot of dysfunction in the Old Testament. We get to read it over and over and over and over...
Yes, but what the focus should be on is how time and time again God came through for them.
Ever wonder if David is gonna say, "Sheesh! My thing with Bathsheba was over centuries ago! You guys talked about it way too much!"
No, but I wonder if David might say: "I'm blessed you learned from my life how loving and forgiving God is."
I was talking to someone about forgiveness. The subject came up whether or not to forgive meant forgetting. We both agreed that "forgetting" was God's deal, but we had to remember what we were forgiven of - so that we valued the forgiveness granted to us.
Likewise I even remember why I forgive another person. It helps me - though I can't really say how. That's the only way I can state it. i wish I had more words to describe what runs through my mind here.
Oh, and you have read my signature, haven't you? ;)
I've been asked many times -- "How can you forgive that person after what they did to you?" I have been wronged in some of the worst ways imaginable but I just can't get past how much I've been forgiven for. I think that's one thing that makes it easier for me to forgive. The other is I know how much bitterness can destroy a person. I've seen it enuf times. I refuse to go down that path. And finally I think forgiving someone imparts tremendous healing power even if they don't know they're forgiven. If not to them -- then at least to myself.
I agree. However, I think there comes a point where "talking things out" takes a sharp turn to the left and all it does is reinforce your pain and/or bitterness. I'm not sure where that point is for each individual but I do have a point where I personally get weary of hearing the same thing over and over and over again. It's at that point that it's time for me to move on. It's at that point that I will not be able to help in the process. It's at that point that I realize I'll probably only make things worse.
Yes, but what the focus should be on is how time and time again God came through for them.
No, but I wonder if David might say: "I'm blessed you learned from my life how loving and forgiving God is."
I've been asked many times -- "How can you forgive that person after what they did to you?" I have been wronged in some of the worst ways imaginable but I just can't get past how much I've been forgiven for. I think that's one thing that makes it easier for me to forgive. The other is I know how much bitterness can destroy a person. I've seen it enuf times. I refuse to go down that path. And finally I think forgiving someone imparts tremendous healing power even if they don't know they're forgiven. If not to them -- then at least to myself.
The more we forgive, the lighter our burden becomes.
When I have been slow to forgive, in order to do so I had to expend energy keeping that anger going and once I forgave the person, that energy could be used more positively.
Like I keep saying,
I never heard anyone say there is too much forgiveness in the world
:) That's a relief! But I wonder if you would still have no disagreement with me if I changed one one little thing in this statement: "I'm not sure where that point is for each individual but I do have a point where I personally get weary of hearing the same thing over and over and over again." But, hold that thought and let's just close this chapter out with mutual agreement.
It's possible to take some "time off", recharge the batteries, then await events.
You may later-once rested- feel a call to do something different and unexpected.
Thanks WW, but it's already been a very long time off. Years for that matter, and, I'm fine. One of the things I concluded when I quit my last assignment with The Way as a BC was this: If a man can't care for his own household, how can he take care of the church of God?
There is a verse somewhere that basically states just that, and so, with that in mind, I told my BC that I was going to go and "get a job" and take care of my family instead of being broke all of the time. And, since '86 God has worked some wonderful blessings since then for me and my family, and I just don't know if I have it in me to get all "involved" with anything like all of that again. I've been to a few churches, some nice, some not so nice. And when the congregants get all excited to see my wife and kids and I for the first time at their church, we get treated all excitedly as "new people", and, it's really weird. Reminds me too much of how we treated "new people" in The Way. Maybe it's payback? Hah! But, I'm fine, really, and thanks.
:) That's a relief! But I wonder if you would still have no disagreement with me if I changed one one little thing in this statement: "I'm not sure where that point is for each individual but I do have a point where I personally get weary of hearing the same thing over and over and over again." But, hold that thought and let's just close this chapter out with mutual agreement.
Larry - there is a point where you personally get weary...
It's not the same point for everyone.
You do what you need to do and I'll do what I need to do - I think we're grown up enough to figure it out, hammer out our differences and forgive along the way.
You can take off all the time you need, but your gifts and talents still lay within you. When you are ready, God will be there to explore the rest of the things he has planned for you in this life.
Johnny, like you I went for years without really moving in the vein in which God called me to walk. I still loved him and prayed, but I actually asked God NOT to see the things I used to see, not to expect me to set them straight, and that I had no (let's say) exhortation left with in, as I could barely keep myself jazzed enough to get through a day. I had no excitement left to evangelize. I declared bankruptcy.
Over the past couple years, I have found myself at a level of need that was over the top. I injured my hand and no medical group was able to help me, no nutritional package, no creams, nothing. I found myself with the only avenue around and that was God. I would sing “Jesus loves you” to my actual hand and told it that Jesus would heal it soon.
He did through a powerful prayer, prayed by a man in Thessalonica Greece – who called me in Atlanta Georgia.
I hungered for the power of prayer in healing. I spoke with Tim Sullivan, who used to work side by side with BG Leonard. We talked about prayer and the fear I had to minister healing because I was paranoid that it would not work.
He asked why? I told him back in the day, I had a girl who had been raped by her Dad, and was so timid she sat with her coat on in Twig, covering her ever-growing belly. I prayed for her child and I saw it and told her it looked fine after her father had beaten her.
I found out there was no baby. She was not pregnant, just crazy. She increased the size of pillows under her coat.
Tim asked me what I saw. I told him the first time I prayed it was like an x-ray. I could see – through it.
He said, “Like it wasn’t there?”
“Yes. Then I prayed and it was a cartoon that winked at me.”
He said, “Like it wasn’t real?”
I cried and he told me I missed the symbolism. Not something I recall being covered in the advanced class or the corps. And if it was, it was not done well enough for me to understand it. But halleluiah I have learned it now.
Once I realized, God did not let me down; my hunger began to grow again.
When you loose the fear (or what ever is holding you back) and get the hunger, God will guide you to all you ever hoped to do for him. When you are ready, he will not dissappoint you.
Jonny - There is way too much for me to say. I'd be writing for days and still not get done.
Bottom line - the way we were taught to "minister" was all messed up. I don't believe the model of making a ministry a full time "job" is accurate at all. That doesn't mean that we don't get to minister - just that the paycheck isn't paper and the benefits aren't deductible. ;)
Jonny - There is way too much for me to say. I'd be writing for days and still not get done.
I am not requesting you to write anything. I am fine. I was only responding to WordsnWorks's response the story about my Dad, and things grew from there. I'm fine and where I want to be.
Love you, without pressure, it just hurt my heart to see you call yourself a "has been" but I do know what you meant as I applied that term to myself several times.
Bottom line - the way we were taught to "minister" was all messed up. I don't believe the model of making a ministry a full time "job" is accurate at all. That doesn't mean that we don't get to minister - just that the paycheck isn't paper and the benefits aren't deductible. ;)
Great point Dooj.
For so many of us, I think especially the guys, the goal and recognition of success in TW corps was a full-time ministry position. (Jonny, since I don't know you, I'm not presuming to speak for you, but my own dear hubby, who was ordained by TWI.) We were pursuing that "dream" and made it to "part-time" area leaders who-hoo. Really just meant we were dirt poor.
It's just another one of those layers of baggage to get rid of from TWI. So many genuine ministries that were derailed and and discouraged and are sitting idle while so many lost and sick and hurting are just waiting for us to reach out to them.
You can take off all the time you need, but your gifts and talents still lay within you. When you are ready, God will be there to explore the rest of the things he has planned for you in this life.
Johnny, like you I went for years without really moving in the vein in which God called me to walk. I still loved him and prayed, but I actually asked God NOT to see the things I used to see, not to expect me to set them straight, and that I had no (let's say) exhortation left with in, as I could barely keep myself jazzed enough to get through a day. I had no excitement left to evangelize. I declared bankruptcy.
Over the past couple years, I have found myself at a level of need that was over the top. I injured my hand and no medical group was able to help me, no nutritional package, no creams, nothing. I found myself with the only avenue around and that was God. I would sing “Jesus loves you” to my actual hand and told it that Jesus would heal it soon.
He did through a powerful prayer, prayed by a man in Thessalonica Greece – who called me in Atlanta Georgia.
I hungered for the power of prayer in healing. I spoke with Tim Sullivan, who used to work side by side with BG Leonard. We talked about prayer and the fear I had to minister healing because I was paranoid that it would not work.
He asked why? I told him back in the day, I had a girl who had been raped by her Dad, and was so timid she sat with her coat on in Twig, covering her ever-growing belly. I prayed for her child and I saw it and told her it looked fine after her father had beaten her.
I found out there was no baby. She was not pregnant, just crazy. She increased the size of pillows under her coat.
Tim asked me what I saw. I told him the first time I prayed it was like an x-ray. I could see – through it.
He said, “Like it wasn’t there?”
“Yes. Then I prayed and it was a cartoon that winked at me.”
He said, “Like it wasn’t real?”
I cried and he told me I missed the symbolism. Not something I recall being covered in the advanced class or the corps. And if it was, it was not done well enough for me to understand it. But halleluiah I have learned it now.
Once I realized, God did not let me down; my hunger began to grow again.
When you loose the fear (or what ever is holding you back) and get the hunger, God will guide you to all you ever hoped to do for him. When you are ready, he will not dissappoint you.
I love you.
edit - for a typo
Dot, another great testimony! Please keep em coming.
Kind of reminds me of how I used to be proud (not like the sinful proud but the admiring proud) and in awe of all the talented and gifted people I knew in der vay. I'm really proud to know you guys, all of you.
And all the glory to God who still speaks to us by revelation so we can help others.
Dot- that one really spoke to me. I've got no great ministry for healing...not in that manner. But I do understand the idea that "When you are ready, God is ready." He really can and does open a lot of doors and change bunches of things in your life just so you can do what He has designed for you to do.
I have said it before and I will probably say it again; God isn't done with us..not by a long shot. Just because twi ended for us that does not mean that God ended for us. He still called us to the body and we still have our jobs to do and we still have to work together to accomplish those jobs. And as W&W said, there are many people with real gift ministries out there that were never recognized by twi, but God does recognize them.
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45)
Differing points of view, Preconceived Ideas, Individual Freedom of Choice, Due Respect
The food fight continues, with each side trying to explain more fully their side of the picture - to make it plain and simple enough so that any reader can understand what they are saying and see where they are coming from. But this seems impossible, as posters seem to want to stick with their preconceived ideas about the other’s thoughts, rather than try to hear what the other is saying.
Let me give an example here that has applied here as well in many other threads. When a new poster comes along, uses some “Way Speak” verbiage and hits the hot buttons of “good associated with PFAL” and “due respect accorded to vpw as teacher of PFAL”, they are pigeon-holed as a “pfal/twi/vpw” fan/lover/defender/apologist. And it’s a one-size-fits-all suit they are visualized as wearing, no room for individual variations on the theme, so to speak. “Oh, here’s another newbie we have to rescue and re-teach. He likes pfal so he obviously is unaware that there are errors in it due to vpw twisting scriptures to cover his a$$ to justify his vile, evil lifestyle that hurt and decimated so many. He must believe every word was God-breathed and obviously has no ability to search the scriptures himself, or he would realize all the bunk in pfal. He thinks PFAL and twi teachings = The Word = the Bible. He is incapable of seeing the differences; thinks they are all the same. And since he gives due respect to vpw as the teacher, poor kid, he still respects, admires, and trusts vpw and still sees him sitting on a pedestal. Still sees him as that kind grandfather who only wants the best for his kids. Man, we gotta set him straight.” Where do I get that idea? From many posts on this thread, and very succinctly stated by WordWolf’s post #103 on page 6
See, every time we get a statement like this, what it's meant is "I wish to maintain the image of vpw as some sort of benevolent, wise teacher, and wish to avoid any references to him drugging women, raping women, using their 'birth to the corps' papers to decide WHICH women to rape, and arranging an inner cadre to help facilitate this and cover his tracks afterwards, monitoring women so that he could dispose of them if they looked like they were going to tell someone. Among other things." Me, I would rarely even mention the evil actions vpw did, except we keep getting people dedicated to COVERING UP the evil actions vpw did-then accusing the rest of US of being fixated because we refuse to let them cover up his evil acts.
But what has Deciderator stated from the beginning? Do his words fit this mold? Not from what I read. (I have strung fragments of different posts together and put in highlights.)
But he taught me to work the Word and not work the collaterals or anything else unless I looked on them as just what one person worked which may or may not be in error. . . Once I got my sleeves rolled up and got to really working the Word and came across things in PFAL I did not understand or disagreed with, I set them aside. . . My own research has continued outside of PFAL and the other books and tapes I bought back then. And as I have worked various subjects I have learned new things outside of PFAL.
See, he believes some of PFAL, has set aside some of PFAL, and has continued his personal study completely away from PFAL. And I don’t see where Gartmore or other twi-splinters are his only outside sources. He does not specifically state what other avenues he has explored, nor does he specifically state all avenues were spin-offs of twi. But I get the feeling from his posts that he has explored well outside the realms of anything even vaguely associated with twi. Could be wrong, just my impression, as he does not specify. And yet, in a later post Waysider again asks
Go back and read the information on "actual errors in PFAL" and the tell me why it is you think it (PFAL) represented "The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word
Deciderator never said that. He did say that “It’s the Word, the Word, and Nothing but the Word” was his favorite one-liner and that the greatest gem he received from pfal was how to study the word for himself.
Taking the PFAL class in many ways is analogous to going on a mining expedition. We were presented with lots of information during that 36 hour period. It would be impossible for the average person (like me) to be able to grasp and retain all that information overload in one sitting, or even several. But I sifted through what was being presented, and at least once, usually quite a few times during a night, nuggets of gold or gems would shine, and I would grab them and put them in my pocket (brain). For instance with the law of believing, and what’s available, etc. related to believing for one’s health (and I may be mixing sessions up, but this is what I relate to that session today - what has stuck in my brain), two verses stand out in my mind. I had never heard 3 John 2 prior to PFAL “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” Nor had I heard Psalms 116:15 explained that “precious” meant “costly”. I had often heard about God making you sick to make you humble, that people died because God was bringing his precious child home, and such things, but I never believed them to be true. They just didn't line up with what my gut told me about a loving God. Man, those two verses were an epiphanies to me! And they helped me greatly in my prayer life when I would be sick, knowing that God did not “curse me with sickness” and that healing and deliverance could happen. But most of the other stuff about the law of believing I never accepted as truth. A law is absolute, happens every time. But people die every day, even if they pray to be healed or others pray on their behalf. Granting prayer is God’s business, praying is my business, but I was thankful to know God preferred me to be in health rather than sick. The silver lining to me of being exposed to the bogus teaching of the law of believing, was that it spurred me to research it on my own, to saturate myself in the subject, and then come to my own conclusions about it, and have confidence in what I believe. So yes, I appreciate these two gems I learned in PFAL, but that’s about all I’ve kept out of that whole section of teaching. I kept much less than I discarded. Just as a miner keeps only the “good stuff” he finds, and leaves the piles and piles of stuff he had to sift through behind him. But because I kept two gems, am I now a “law of believing” fan/lover/apologist/defender? I don’t think so. And because I mined numerous gems in PFAL, does it mean I’m a PFAL fan/lover/apologist/defender? I am a fan and a lover of parts of it, but I do not consider myself an apologist nor a defender, because I readily point out the errors and make no bones that some scriptures were twisted and misapplied. Do I think the PFAL class is valuable? Am I glad I sat through it a number of times? Would I encourage others to take it if and only if I had the opportunity to sit with them and advise them of the parts that I disagree with and let them feel free to ask questions about anything that didn’t sit well with them? Yes. Why? Because to date I have not found another source or package that presents the wealth of information found in PFAL. In fact, I sat with my son as he took it several years ago. And every night he had questions for the instructor/class leader that were answered in straightforward, honest terms, and he and I had discussions about what we liked and disliked, agreed/disagreed with, etc. He, too, gained a lot from the class, but has discarded and forgotten the portions he did not feel were relevant. The scriptures alone speak volumes. And pointing out the misapplication and misinterpretations is not difficult. And like I said, some of the discarded portions were excellent jumping off points for things I wanted to study, so in that way, they were of benefit, also, even though I came to very different conclusions regarding the subjects. The choice is not between liking all or liking none of pfal. The choice between what to hold on to, and what to discard. It’s not all good, or all bad; it’s a mixture. And, in my opinion, it’s worth sifting through the sand and rubble to mine the gems.
Ever go to a party and meet someone new and from their vocabulary in their conversations decide “Hey, bet they are in the legal field, or the health care field” or something like that? Happens to me often, and just as often they confirm my suspicions without me ever having to ask. Their profession will come up in conversation. I find it’s also true that clergy and very active lay people incorporate a lot of Bible speak or religious speak into their conversations. Why? Because that’s where their “head” is most of the time, at work and at home, since they most often choose books, movies, etc. to enjoy in their off-time that compliments their interests. And much of their verbiage sounds a lot like Way Speak to me. Deciderator professes that his passion is studying the scriptures. So it seems very natural and logical to me that his vocabulary will contain a lot of Bible-type speak, much that is similar to our way days. Yet, I don’t consider him to be a “twit-head” or “still brainwashed” or “Way brained”. But it seems others may draw that conclusion.
As for those he claim his adulation of vpw, it contradicts what he has said.
Decades before I even heard about PFAL I had learned to not idolize them, but to know that I was on the same level with them and to deal with them as peers. When I got to PFAL, I never held Lynn, Wierwille, Geer or anyone else on a pedestal. I had seen personal failings of powerful, charismatic men in my own living room and knew to expect it from others.
He was accused of wanting to cover up the sins of vpw. Sounded to me like he just felt no need to uncover them any further himself as the gist of the abuse threads was clearly summarized here. He never denied they happened. He gave real insight into why he felt no need to wade through them, put himself in the place of judge or jury, and come up with his guess of guilt or innocence for each accusation.
I hope you paid attention to what I posted about giving people a fair shake in terms of accusations. You may someday end up in a courtroom on the other end of false accusations as I have been. Accusations accompanied by evidence that, when presented on their own before I had a chance to challenge them, looked mighty bad.
This is probably why he seems to have a real distaste for accusations without the other person being allowed to present their side. And that can never happen with vpw since he’s dead. And in the absence of a “legal, guilty” verdict, he is not going to pass judgment on the man on each thing he has been accused of. Knowing the basics of the facts seems to be sufficient for him to believe vpw did indeed act in a sexually reprehensible manner and inflict great harm on others; he does not need to read the details for further “evidence”. He states he knew to expect like things from powerful, charismatic men. And though he does not say “like vpw” it is inferred. I think people get tripped up on the little word IF. In responding to Rascal he says
Rascal, if indeed they did those things it was NOT ok. Our taxes finance something in this country called the "criminal justice system.
Some interpret that to mean “If they happened (I personally don’t think they did, they are mere accusations by hysterical women living in their past)”. But he seems to be saying since they have not yet been proven in a court of law, I must accord vpw the legally proscribed “innocent until proven guilty” benefit and will not make the claim they absolutely did happen just as stated, thus, his the use of the word IF. He has repeatedly said he knows people were hurt in the ministry. Even that his twig coordinator protected his twigees, and protection is needed against evil, not good. No where has he said the accusations were false, just that they are one-sided. This is a similar argument to what WhiteDove gives later in the thread. From WhiteDove’s posts, I gather that he strongly believes the abuse happened, but cautions against the misuse of legal terms such as proof/verification/judgment with non-legal definitions.
I have no problem with believing that VPW could have done any of these things just no proof. If and when that happens that will be a different day.
On that different day he can say with authority, yes it did happen. It has been proven and is no longer just an issue of my gut feel based on a large body of testimony or trusting one party’s side of the accusations.
You also failed to read anywhere on this thread or others where I ever denied anything concerning this subject yet you consistently claim I have.. I have on the other hand said more times than I care to that I have insufficient data, information, facts to render a judgment either way. I also have gone out of my way to point out that there is certainly a possibility that these accounts could be true. I guess you missed that as well. I don't accept unprovable information as truth plain and simple whatever the subject.
He can’t say it is truth, an absolute; but he can believe (subjective, no need for objective proof) that they are. And he seems to believe just that. The numerous similar accounts give great weight to the accusations. But unless the abuser or one of his accessories or someone else who was an eyewitness to the actual abuse comes forward and says “Yes I was there the night this happened to M. I saw the drugs being slipped into her drink. I saw her drink it. Later, we heard moaning from the back of the motorcoach and peeked in to investigate. VPW was penetrating her, she was trying to resist, but the drugs had performed their intended task, and he was able to overpower her struggles. Later, I had to change and clean his sheets, and the evidence was there.” or something to that effect, it cannot be verified in a legal sense. But it can be believed to be true. And even if one believes it to be true, without a “legal pronouncement”, they may be of the school of thought that “if” is the proper word to be used. Raf could probably give some good input on this subject. As a journalist by profession, if he were to say “The sexual abuse carried out by vpw”, indicating the abuse is an absolute certainty, that could land him in hot water due to slander as he was not an eyewitness and there has been no legal verdict of “guilty”. He could avoid that by saying “If the alleged sexual abuse was carried out by vpw”. To stay “out of the soup” legally, one must be very careful how they phrase statements about accusations. To some, such phrasing is not only a legal obligation, but a moral and ethical one, also. To some it is splitting hairs, to others there is a huge and significant difference. Some may not like the stance Deciderator has taken on the abuse issue, and will continue to say he denies it since he will not state it absolutely happened. But it seems like a waste of time and energy at this point to try and persuade him to change his mind. If people feel backed into a corner, they are less likely to accept suggestions. Rather, they tend to walk in the opposite direction.
Because one chooses not to read the accounts of abuse, and does not state emphatically “Yes I believe them”, it does not mean they do not have care and concern for the victims. Deciderator demonstrates his care and concern by offering them the advice he holds dear and lives by in his own life ‘don’t dwell in the darkness, dwell in the light’. It’s the best advice he knows to give. Does it mean it is sound? Nope, certainly not in the case of sexual abuse. He illustrated his advice using the example of making a clean break after his divorce. He didn’t dwell on the “evils” of his ex, he dropped it. And after time, when they met again, the “negative” feelings did not resurface and they enjoyed a short visit together. It drew some interesting responses, all of which were quite valid. Rascal again clearly stated her passions, pointing out that we as a body should care about those still ensnared in twi and feels that many here at the GSC share her passion and see it as “
their spiritual/moral duty to warn the unwary, to extend a hand to those still entrapped with the fears that keep them enslaved in the darkness that they abide in in twi.
She is clearly upset that he does not see the validity of her passion and encourages him (as others do also) to familiarize himself with the carnal side of vpw and cgeer, so that he can understand the foundation for their zeal. She goes so far as to say that anyone who chooses to ignore it is acting in a cowardly and unconscionable manner. What I see going on here is people having differing passions and each fulfilling their particular function in the Body of Christ. He chooses to heal by holding forth the truth of the Word, she chooses to heal by warning the unwary. Both are noble callings and necessary functions in the body. We can respect each other’s passions without feeling offended if someone places a lower “personal” priority on ours and a higher one on theirs. That’s what is to be expected as we each must choose the battles we wish to fight. However, as Deciderator is not ready to look into the dark side yet, some feel a need to persuade him to do so. Give him some time. He may decide to look into it, he may not, but he has the freedom to choose if and when he delves into it.
As the attempts at persuasion continue, and Deciderator continues to try and explain his position, he triggers the hot button I’ve done rotten things, you probably have to. He points out that Saul was a mass murderer (regarded the “worst” crime by society at large) yet his fellow Christians were able to forgive him. Some people seem to interpret such comparisons as slighting the severity of vpw et. al.’s deeds, to me, he’s still trying to explain his position and taking an extreme position for emphasis. And, as noted previously, forgiveness is another hot button for a myriad of reasons. He hits the “move on, shed the bitterness” hot button. Again, easier for those whose hearts weren’t shattered and souls stolen. Unless he chooses to read the accounts, he will remain unaware of the depth of the hurt, and why it takes a long time to recover. Seems Paul was absent from the early church for at least 10 years (and I think closer to 20, but I don’t remember for sure) before he returned to be among them. It obviously took him a while to focus on the scriptures and forgive himself. And it took the believers of that day and time that long to be able to forgive him for killing their loved ones, also. It takes God and time both to heal a broken heart. But again, it’s his choice whether or not to read them and find out the details rather than be satisfied with the summaries he’s already read.
Deciderator also notes that he knows those trying to persuade him have honorable intentions, and he appreciates that. And the food fight continues.
Let’s explore the concept of due respect. It means the respect that has been earned via some action. It does not meanadmiration, reverence, worship. Best analogy I can think of (being from Old South heritage) is with Melanie in Gone With The Wind. During Reconstruction, the leaders and shakers of the “old south brigade” decided they needed to go out to shantytown and clean it out, i.e., murder the ringleaders and set the whole place afire to force all those “no counts” out of their neighborhood. Moral? Not in my opinion, but to them, the right “their safety” justified the wrong “murder, burn out”. The old scoundrel (but somewhat loveable scoundrel, because he was honest about who he was and made no bones about it), Rhett Butler is able to save them from apprehension by the law and certain death by hanging, by saying they were at the wh*re house with he and his friend, Belle Watling. Well, Belle was nothing but trash, a madam for heaven’s sake, no morals, a disgrace to mankind. The wives, and other proper Southern ladies, were thankful their husband’s necks had been saved, but hated that they had to live with the disgrace of saying those good men had patronized the bordello. It was disgusting, dirty, and contemptible; almost better their men had died than have to live with such shame. And, by George, that scoundrel Rhett had purposely chosen to take them to Belle’s just so he could make a laughing stock out of the “old guard”. Well, they were tricked, so there was no way in he!! they would be “under obligation” to Rhett nor Belle. They had schemed and tricked their way into “deserving” gratitude from decent folks, therefore no gratitude was necessary and, by God, they wouldn’t give it to them. Noone, except Melanie. She was grateful to Belle for having saved her husband’s neck, and was proud to be “under obligation” (you did good for me, I will be pleased to return the favor to you) to Belle, even sent her a note saying she planned to “come to call” (go visit Belle at her home - which of course was in the bordello! - because, culturally, it was the requisite action to show thankfulness and respect). She did not approve of Belle’s lifestyle, in fact, was repulsed and horrified by it, but she was thankful and appreciative that Belle saved her husband’s life. She had due respect for what Belle had done to “bless” (yes, I think that’s the best description) her life. Some people thought Melanie was just a “ninny” and had lost her mind for feeling thankful and showing due respect. I think she was doing the right thing and showed great courage in acting on her convictions and what her heart told her was the right thing to do, despite what other’s thought of her. Poster’s here, such as I, can have due respect for vpw because he was the person who presented truths of God’s word to us that liberated us and helped us immensely on our personal spiritual journey. We have other’s that are accorded that same due respect for their helpfulness along our way. Some we do respect, admire, and love as human beings, also. For me personally, vpw is no longer worthy in my eyes of those attributes, but instead I feel contempt and horror for the things he did behind the scenes. His actions forfeited the respect I once had for him. However, he will always have my due respect, and nothing will ever change that. But I do not feel that makes me a vpw lover/defender/apologist/fan; those are untrue characterizations, in my opinion.
Lastly, here at GSC those who are pfal/twi/vpw rejecters have chosen many “spiritual” paths since their departure. Some are Christian, and within that framework may be independents (not affiliated with any organized group) or be aligned with Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, etc. churches. Some have returned to the Jewish faith, either with or without a belief in Jesus Christ. Others have chosen non Judeo-Christian groups such as Wiccans, or those into the metaphysical, or others. Some have become agnostics or atheists. And all their choices are allowed and respected, even if they are disturbing to some posters here. If pfal/twi/vpw rejecters are allowed such latitude and freedom of choice, why must those who have positive things to say about pfal/twi/vpw be pigeonholded as “Way brained twits that believe every word ever spoken by vpw, and still worship him”? Why shouldn’t they be given the same courtesy as the rejecters, to be able to express their individual thoughts and choices, versus being viewed as only and entirely supportive pfal/twi/vpw? Is it merely a black or white issue, or is there room for other colors in there too? (Say purple, for instance? It's my favorite.)
Don’t know what page this thread is up to now, but that’s all I have the energy to say right now. Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts and concerns.
< Deciderator stands and gives Suda a round of polite golf applause >
I guess I would have a quibble or two, but they would be too insignificant to waste time on.
Having someone else decide for me what I believe and what I think about various people and things is patently ridiculous when I have posted much to give my opinion.
It was annoying for the first couple of people to misinterpret what I said, but as the number grew it became giggle-inducing.
I posted that something important I took from PFAL was "THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD!"
That caused a lot of negative reaction, but I don't think any of them disagreed with the point.
When all this arguing is going on, the Bible remains a closed book, unless someone wants to find a verse to club someone else with.
A major reason I have refrained from the all-out attack on Mr. Wierwille, Mr. Martindale and others is not because I idolize them.
I try (with varying success) not to make personal attacks on Christians because even the worst of them are God's children and stand righteous and holy without blame in love before Him.
To say otherwise is to commit idolatry by exalting my word above that of my heavenly Father.
I believe there is a better way than holding on to grudges for decades. I know from personal experience how easy it is to get in such a rut and keep that righteous indignation going. I am well aware of the energy that takes. I also know that there comes a time to understand that in life there are things which do not get resolved, wrongs that don't get righted and holding on to all that gets to be a burden that weighs us down.
We need to trust God more to take care of those things.
It is often not until we let them go that we see how burdened we are and how confining it is because we get so used to carrying that weight around it just seems natural.
But then we forgive and suddenly life becomes lighter and with the negativity gone, we are able to spring forward with a lil boogaloo in our step and a smile that comes quicker because we know we have done the right thing.
And knowing that God wants us to forgive our enemies makes it easier to carry out His will.
Masterfully done Suda, and it is evident that the whole effort stemmed from the love of God, and not for your own personal gain. You are a sweet girl. Mmmmmwwwwwaaaahhh! (and, that was in fact a holy kiss!)
If pfal/twi/vpw rejecters are allowed such latitude and freedom of choice, why must those who have positive things to say about pfal/twi/vpw be pigeonholded as “Way brained twits that believe every word ever spoken by vpw, and still worship him”? Why shouldn’t they be given the same courtesy as the rejecters, to be able to express their individual thoughts and choices, versus being viewed as only and entirely supportive pfal/twi/vpw? Is it merely a black or white issue, or is there room for other colors in there too? (Say purple, for instance? It's my favorite.)
Suda
The simple answer to that question can be found by clicking on the "About us" on GreaseSpot's homepage:
"Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about the Way International and it's trustees."
Coming to this website and saying positive things about twi is akin to visiting an anti war website and posting positive things about war...Perhaps if this were a "neutral" website that encouraged differing points of view, positive statements regarding twi would be more appropriate.
When one considers the purpose and mission of this website, is it any wonder that positive statements about twi are not treated with courtesy???
Ok, how bout this example, if someone kidnapped your sister and sexually abused her, would you be so ready to listen to how he was such an upstanding citizen? Wouldn't the upstanding part be obbliterated by the kidnapping and abuse part?
Were not we captivated by such a one, and were not some of our sisters abused?
... it just hurt my heart to see you call yourself a "has been" ...
Hey, if Jonny wants to consider himself a "has been", who are we to disagree?
All joking aside, to look back at your time with twi and to now consider yourself a "has been" because you no longer are doing what you did in twi...is very revealing in and of itself.
Personally, I look back at my time in twi as a waste of time...I am not a "has been"...I am a "Now is"...my life is better in every regard...financially, spiritually, mentally, etc, etc.
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45)
Differing points of view, Preconceived Ideas, Individual Freedom of Choice, Due Respect
The food fight continues, with each side trying to explain more fully their side of the picture - to make it plain and simple enough so that any reader can understand what they are saying and see where they are coming from. But this seems impossible, as posters seem to want to stick with their preconceived ideas about the other’s thoughts, rather than try to hear what the other is saying.
Kind of like the "real" world, huh? In my experience, a small minority of posters consider the thoughts and ideas of other posters and respond accordingly, the rest talk past each other.
Let me give an example here that has applied here as well in many other threads. When a new poster comes along, uses some “Way Speak” verbiage and hits the hot buttons of “good associated with PFAL” and “due respect accorded to vpw as teacher of PFAL”, they are pigeon-holed as a “pfal/twi/vpw” fan/lover/defender/apologist.
I disagree with you there. Not that these labels aren't used pecipitously at times, but my observation is that those newbies who "uses some “Way Speak” verbiage and hits the hot buttons of “good associated with PFAL” and “due respect accorded to vpw as teacher of PFAL”, get tarred and feathered and labelled predominantly when they make a judgement against those of us who have no use for Wierwille and PFAL, or offer some "helpful" advice about how we should "get back to the Word", or move on or be positive or whatever, with no consideration as to why we feel the way we do, and with the condescending attitude that we have somehow "lost our way".
And it’s a one-size-fits-all suit they are visualized as wearing, no room for individual variations on the theme, so to speak. “Oh, here’s another newbie we have to rescue and re-teach. He likes pfal so he obviously is unaware that there are errors in it due to vpw twisting scriptures to cover his a$$ to justify his vile, evil lifestyle that hurt and decimated so many. He must believe every word was God-breathed and obviously has no ability to search the scriptures himself, or he would realize all the bunk in pfal. He thinks PFAL and twi teachings = The Word = the Bible. He is incapable of seeing the differences; thinks they are all the same.
Your characterization of how the newbies are treated is very much a one-size-fits-all description.
And since he gives due respect to vpw as the teacher, poor kid, he still respects, admires, and trusts vpw and still sees him sitting on a pedestal. Still sees him as that kind grandfather who only wants the best for his kids. Man, we gotta set him straight.”
I wouldn't argue too much with this. For those of us who see Wierwille as a vile predator and as a poor teacher and plagiarist, of course we want to set people straight!
I've got more comments on your post, but I have to go to work
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Larry N Moore
I agree. However, I think there comes a point where "talking things out" takes a sharp turn to the left and all it does is reinforce your pain and/or bitterness. I'm not sure where that point is for each individual but I do have a point where I personally get weary of hearing the same thing over and over and over again. It's at that point that it's time for me to move on. It's at that point that I will not be able to help in the process. It's at that point that I realize I'll probably only make things worse.
Yes, but what the focus should be on is how time and time again God came through for them.No, but I wonder if David might say: "I'm blessed you learned from my life how loving and forgiving God is."
I've been asked many times -- "How can you forgive that person after what they did to you?" I have been wronged in some of the worst ways imaginable but I just can't get past how much I've been forgiven for. I think that's one thing that makes it easier for me to forgive. The other is I know how much bitterness can destroy a person. I've seen it enuf times. I refuse to go down that path. And finally I think forgiving someone imparts tremendous healing power even if they don't know they're forgiven. If not to them -- then at least to myself.
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doojable
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Deciderator
The more we forgive, the lighter our burden becomes.
When I have been slow to forgive, in order to do so I had to expend energy keeping that anger going and once I forgave the person, that energy could be used more positively.
Like I keep saying,
I never heard anyone say there is too much forgiveness in the world
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Larry N Moore
:) That's a relief! But I wonder if you would still have no disagreement with me if I changed one one little thing in this statement: "I'm not sure where that point is for each individual but I do have a point where I personally get weary of hearing the same thing over and over and over again." But, hold that thought and let's just close this chapter out with mutual agreement.
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J0nny Ling0
Thanks WW, but it's already been a very long time off. Years for that matter, and, I'm fine. One of the things I concluded when I quit my last assignment with The Way as a BC was this: If a man can't care for his own household, how can he take care of the church of God?
There is a verse somewhere that basically states just that, and so, with that in mind, I told my BC that I was going to go and "get a job" and take care of my family instead of being broke all of the time. And, since '86 God has worked some wonderful blessings since then for me and my family, and I just don't know if I have it in me to get all "involved" with anything like all of that again. I've been to a few churches, some nice, some not so nice. And when the congregants get all excited to see my wife and kids and I for the first time at their church, we get treated all excitedly as "new people", and, it's really weird. Reminds me too much of how we treated "new people" in The Way. Maybe it's payback? Hah! But, I'm fine, really, and thanks.
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doojable
Larry - there is a point where you personally get weary...
It's not the same point for everyone.
You do what you need to do and I'll do what I need to do - I think we're grown up enough to figure it out, hammer out our differences and forgive along the way.
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Dot Matrix
Johnny
You can take off all the time you need, but your gifts and talents still lay within you. When you are ready, God will be there to explore the rest of the things he has planned for you in this life.
Johnny, like you I went for years without really moving in the vein in which God called me to walk. I still loved him and prayed, but I actually asked God NOT to see the things I used to see, not to expect me to set them straight, and that I had no (let's say) exhortation left with in, as I could barely keep myself jazzed enough to get through a day. I had no excitement left to evangelize. I declared bankruptcy.
Over the past couple years, I have found myself at a level of need that was over the top. I injured my hand and no medical group was able to help me, no nutritional package, no creams, nothing. I found myself with the only avenue around and that was God. I would sing “Jesus loves you” to my actual hand and told it that Jesus would heal it soon.
He did through a powerful prayer, prayed by a man in Thessalonica Greece – who called me in Atlanta Georgia.
I hungered for the power of prayer in healing. I spoke with Tim Sullivan, who used to work side by side with BG Leonard. We talked about prayer and the fear I had to minister healing because I was paranoid that it would not work.
He asked why? I told him back in the day, I had a girl who had been raped by her Dad, and was so timid she sat with her coat on in Twig, covering her ever-growing belly. I prayed for her child and I saw it and told her it looked fine after her father had beaten her.
I found out there was no baby. She was not pregnant, just crazy. She increased the size of pillows under her coat.
Tim asked me what I saw. I told him the first time I prayed it was like an x-ray. I could see – through it.
He said, “Like it wasn’t there?”
“Yes. Then I prayed and it was a cartoon that winked at me.”
He said, “Like it wasn’t real?”
I cried and he told me I missed the symbolism. Not something I recall being covered in the advanced class or the corps. And if it was, it was not done well enough for me to understand it. But halleluiah I have learned it now.
Once I realized, God did not let me down; my hunger began to grow again.
When you loose the fear (or what ever is holding you back) and get the hunger, God will guide you to all you ever hoped to do for him. When you are ready, he will not dissappoint you.
I love you.
edit - for a typo
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Dot Matrix
PS
And you CAN keep your "real" job!
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doojable
Jonny - There is way too much for me to say. I'd be writing for days and still not get done.
Bottom line - the way we were taught to "minister" was all messed up. I don't believe the model of making a ministry a full time "job" is accurate at all. That doesn't mean that we don't get to minister - just that the paycheck isn't paper and the benefits aren't deductible. ;)
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J0nny Ling0
I am not requesting you to write anything. I am fine. I was only responding to WordsnWorks's response the story about my Dad, and things grew from there. I'm fine and where I want to be.
And thanks Dot. I'm fine.
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Dot Matrix
Love you Johnny
I did not mean any pressure or anything really.
Love you, without pressure, it just hurt my heart to see you call yourself a "has been" but I do know what you meant as I applied that term to myself several times.
Do what you want, like what you do.
Peace
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wrdsandwrks
Great point Dooj.
For so many of us, I think especially the guys, the goal and recognition of success in TW corps was a full-time ministry position. (Jonny, since I don't know you, I'm not presuming to speak for you, but my own dear hubby, who was ordained by TWI.) We were pursuing that "dream" and made it to "part-time" area leaders who-hoo. Really just meant we were dirt poor.
It's just another one of those layers of baggage to get rid of from TWI. So many genuine ministries that were derailed and and discouraged and are sitting idle while so many lost and sick and hurting are just waiting for us to reach out to them.
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wrdsandwrks
Dot, another great testimony! Please keep em coming.
Kind of reminds me of how I used to be proud (not like the sinful proud but the admiring proud) and in awe of all the talented and gifted people I knew in der vay. I'm really proud to know you guys, all of you.
And all the glory to God who still speaks to us by revelation so we can help others.
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Eyesopen
Dot- that one really spoke to me. I've got no great ministry for healing...not in that manner. But I do understand the idea that "When you are ready, God is ready." He really can and does open a lot of doors and change bunches of things in your life just so you can do what He has designed for you to do.
I have said it before and I will probably say it again; God isn't done with us..not by a long shot. Just because twi ended for us that does not mean that God ended for us. He still called us to the body and we still have our jobs to do and we still have to work together to accomplish those jobs. And as W&W said, there are many people with real gift ministries out there that were never recognized by twi, but God does recognize them.
Anyway great posts one and all.... :)
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Suda
Page 4 - What’s Happening in this thread?
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45)
Differing points of view, Preconceived Ideas, Individual Freedom of Choice, Due Respect
The food fight continues, with each side trying to explain more fully their side of the picture - to make it plain and simple enough so that any reader can understand what they are saying and see where they are coming from. But this seems impossible, as posters seem to want to stick with their preconceived ideas about the other’s thoughts, rather than try to hear what the other is saying.
Let me give an example here that has applied here as well in many other threads. When a new poster comes along, uses some “Way Speak” verbiage and hits the hot buttons of “good associated with PFAL” and “due respect accorded to vpw as teacher of PFAL”, they are pigeon-holed as a “pfal/twi/vpw” fan/lover/defender/apologist. And it’s a one-size-fits-all suit they are visualized as wearing, no room for individual variations on the theme, so to speak. “Oh, here’s another newbie we have to rescue and re-teach. He likes pfal so he obviously is unaware that there are errors in it due to vpw twisting scriptures to cover his a$$ to justify his vile, evil lifestyle that hurt and decimated so many. He must believe every word was God-breathed and obviously has no ability to search the scriptures himself, or he would realize all the bunk in pfal. He thinks PFAL and twi teachings = The Word = the Bible. He is incapable of seeing the differences; thinks they are all the same. And since he gives due respect to vpw as the teacher, poor kid, he still respects, admires, and trusts vpw and still sees him sitting on a pedestal. Still sees him as that kind grandfather who only wants the best for his kids. Man, we gotta set him straight.” Where do I get that idea? From many posts on this thread, and very succinctly stated by WordWolf’s post #103 on page 6
But what has Deciderator stated from the beginning? Do his words fit this mold? Not from what I read. (I have strung fragments of different posts together and put in highlights.)See, he believes some of PFAL, has set aside some of PFAL, and has continued his personal study completely away from PFAL. And I don’t see where Gartmore or other twi-splinters are his only outside sources. He does not specifically state what other avenues he has explored, nor does he specifically state all avenues were spin-offs of twi. But I get the feeling from his posts that he has explored well outside the realms of anything even vaguely associated with twi. Could be wrong, just my impression, as he does not specify. And yet, in a later post Waysider again asks Deciderator never said that. He did say that “It’s the Word, the Word, and Nothing but the Word” was his favorite one-liner and that the greatest gem he received from pfal was how to study the word for himself.Taking the PFAL class in many ways is analogous to going on a mining expedition. We were presented with lots of information during that 36 hour period. It would be impossible for the average person (like me) to be able to grasp and retain all that information overload in one sitting, or even several. But I sifted through what was being presented, and at least once, usually quite a few times during a night, nuggets of gold or gems would shine, and I would grab them and put them in my pocket (brain). For instance with the law of believing, and what’s available, etc. related to believing for one’s health (and I may be mixing sessions up, but this is what I relate to that session today - what has stuck in my brain), two verses stand out in my mind. I had never heard 3 John 2 prior to PFAL “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” Nor had I heard Psalms 116:15 explained that “precious” meant “costly”. I had often heard about God making you sick to make you humble, that people died because God was bringing his precious child home, and such things, but I never believed them to be true. They just didn't line up with what my gut told me about a loving God. Man, those two verses were an epiphanies to me! And they helped me greatly in my prayer life when I would be sick, knowing that God did not “curse me with sickness” and that healing and deliverance could happen. But most of the other stuff about the law of believing I never accepted as truth. A law is absolute, happens every time. But people die every day, even if they pray to be healed or others pray on their behalf. Granting prayer is God’s business, praying is my business, but I was thankful to know God preferred me to be in health rather than sick. The silver lining to me of being exposed to the bogus teaching of the law of believing, was that it spurred me to research it on my own, to saturate myself in the subject, and then come to my own conclusions about it, and have confidence in what I believe. So yes, I appreciate these two gems I learned in PFAL, but that’s about all I’ve kept out of that whole section of teaching. I kept much less than I discarded. Just as a miner keeps only the “good stuff” he finds, and leaves the piles and piles of stuff he had to sift through behind him. But because I kept two gems, am I now a “law of believing” fan/lover/apologist/defender? I don’t think so. And because I mined numerous gems in PFAL, does it mean I’m a PFAL fan/lover/apologist/defender? I am a fan and a lover of parts of it, but I do not consider myself an apologist nor a defender, because I readily point out the errors and make no bones that some scriptures were twisted and misapplied. Do I think the PFAL class is valuable? Am I glad I sat through it a number of times? Would I encourage others to take it if and only if I had the opportunity to sit with them and advise them of the parts that I disagree with and let them feel free to ask questions about anything that didn’t sit well with them? Yes. Why? Because to date I have not found another source or package that presents the wealth of information found in PFAL. In fact, I sat with my son as he took it several years ago. And every night he had questions for the instructor/class leader that were answered in straightforward, honest terms, and he and I had discussions about what we liked and disliked, agreed/disagreed with, etc. He, too, gained a lot from the class, but has discarded and forgotten the portions he did not feel were relevant. The scriptures alone speak volumes. And pointing out the misapplication and misinterpretations is not difficult. And like I said, some of the discarded portions were excellent jumping off points for things I wanted to study, so in that way, they were of benefit, also, even though I came to very different conclusions regarding the subjects. The choice is not between liking all or liking none of pfal. The choice between what to hold on to, and what to discard. It’s not all good, or all bad; it’s a mixture. And, in my opinion, it’s worth sifting through the sand and rubble to mine the gems.
Ever go to a party and meet someone new and from their vocabulary in their conversations decide “Hey, bet they are in the legal field, or the health care field” or something like that? Happens to me often, and just as often they confirm my suspicions without me ever having to ask. Their profession will come up in conversation. I find it’s also true that clergy and very active lay people incorporate a lot of Bible speak or religious speak into their conversations. Why? Because that’s where their “head” is most of the time, at work and at home, since they most often choose books, movies, etc. to enjoy in their off-time that compliments their interests. And much of their verbiage sounds a lot like Way Speak to me. Deciderator professes that his passion is studying the scriptures. So it seems very natural and logical to me that his vocabulary will contain a lot of Bible-type speak, much that is similar to our way days. Yet, I don’t consider him to be a “twit-head” or “still brainwashed” or “Way brained”. But it seems others may draw that conclusion.
As for those he claim his adulation of vpw, it contradicts what he has said.
He was accused of wanting to cover up the sins of vpw. Sounded to me like he just felt no need to uncover them any further himself as the gist of the abuse threads was clearly summarized here. He never denied they happened. He gave real insight into why he felt no need to wade through them, put himself in the place of judge or jury, and come up with his guess of guilt or innocence for each accusation. This is probably why he seems to have a real distaste for accusations without the other person being allowed to present their side. And that can never happen with vpw since he’s dead. And in the absence of a “legal, guilty” verdict, he is not going to pass judgment on the man on each thing he has been accused of. Knowing the basics of the facts seems to be sufficient for him to believe vpw did indeed act in a sexually reprehensible manner and inflict great harm on others; he does not need to read the details for further “evidence”. He states he knew to expect like things from powerful, charismatic men. And though he does not say “like vpw” it is inferred. I think people get tripped up on the little word IF. In responding to Rascal he says Some interpret that to mean “If they happened (I personally don’t think they did, they are mere accusations by hysterical women living in their past)”. But he seems to be saying since they have not yet been proven in a court of law, I must accord vpw the legally proscribed “innocent until proven guilty” benefit and will not make the claim they absolutely did happen just as stated, thus, his the use of the word IF. He has repeatedly said he knows people were hurt in the ministry. Even that his twig coordinator protected his twigees, and protection is needed against evil, not good. No where has he said the accusations were false, just that they are one-sided. This is a similar argument to what WhiteDove gives later in the thread. From WhiteDove’s posts, I gather that he strongly believes the abuse happened, but cautions against the misuse of legal terms such as proof/verification/judgment with non-legal definitions. On that different day he can say with authority, yes it did happen. It has been proven and is no longer just an issue of my gut feel based on a large body of testimony or trusting one party’s side of the accusations. He can’t say it is truth, an absolute; but he can believe (subjective, no need for objective proof) that they are. And he seems to believe just that. The numerous similar accounts give great weight to the accusations. But unless the abuser or one of his accessories or someone else who was an eyewitness to the actual abuse comes forward and says “Yes I was there the night this happened to M. I saw the drugs being slipped into her drink. I saw her drink it. Later, we heard moaning from the back of the motorcoach and peeked in to investigate. VPW was penetrating her, she was trying to resist, but the drugs had performed their intended task, and he was able to overpower her struggles. Later, I had to change and clean his sheets, and the evidence was there.” or something to that effect, it cannot be verified in a legal sense. But it can be believed to be true. And even if one believes it to be true, without a “legal pronouncement”, they may be of the school of thought that “if” is the proper word to be used. Raf could probably give some good input on this subject. As a journalist by profession, if he were to say “The sexual abuse carried out by vpw”, indicating the abuse is an absolute certainty, that could land him in hot water due to slander as he was not an eyewitness and there has been no legal verdict of “guilty”. He could avoid that by saying “If the alleged sexual abuse was carried out by vpw”. To stay “out of the soup” legally, one must be very careful how they phrase statements about accusations. To some, such phrasing is not only a legal obligation, but a moral and ethical one, also. To some it is splitting hairs, to others there is a huge and significant difference. Some may not like the stance Deciderator has taken on the abuse issue, and will continue to say he denies it since he will not state it absolutely happened. But it seems like a waste of time and energy at this point to try and persuade him to change his mind. If people feel backed into a corner, they are less likely to accept suggestions. Rather, they tend to walk in the opposite direction.Because one chooses not to read the accounts of abuse, and does not state emphatically “Yes I believe them”, it does not mean they do not have care and concern for the victims. Deciderator demonstrates his care and concern by offering them the advice he holds dear and lives by in his own life ‘don’t dwell in the darkness, dwell in the light’. It’s the best advice he knows to give. Does it mean it is sound? Nope, certainly not in the case of sexual abuse. He illustrated his advice using the example of making a clean break after his divorce. He didn’t dwell on the “evils” of his ex, he dropped it. And after time, when they met again, the “negative” feelings did not resurface and they enjoyed a short visit together. It drew some interesting responses, all of which were quite valid. Rascal again clearly stated her passions, pointing out that we as a body should care about those still ensnared in twi and feels that many here at the GSC share her passion and see it as “
She is clearly upset that he does not see the validity of her passion and encourages him (as others do also) to familiarize himself with the carnal side of vpw and cgeer, so that he can understand the foundation for their zeal. She goes so far as to say that anyone who chooses to ignore it is acting in a cowardly and unconscionable manner. What I see going on here is people having differing passions and each fulfilling their particular function in the Body of Christ. He chooses to heal by holding forth the truth of the Word, she chooses to heal by warning the unwary. Both are noble callings and necessary functions in the body. We can respect each other’s passions without feeling offended if someone places a lower “personal” priority on ours and a higher one on theirs. That’s what is to be expected as we each must choose the battles we wish to fight. However, as Deciderator is not ready to look into the dark side yet, some feel a need to persuade him to do so. Give him some time. He may decide to look into it, he may not, but he has the freedom to choose if and when he delves into it.
As the attempts at persuasion continue, and Deciderator continues to try and explain his position, he triggers the hot button I’ve done rotten things, you probably have to. He points out that Saul was a mass murderer (regarded the “worst” crime by society at large) yet his fellow Christians were able to forgive him. Some people seem to interpret such comparisons as slighting the severity of vpw et. al.’s deeds, to me, he’s still trying to explain his position and taking an extreme position for emphasis. And, as noted previously, forgiveness is another hot button for a myriad of reasons. He hits the “move on, shed the bitterness” hot button. Again, easier for those whose hearts weren’t shattered and souls stolen. Unless he chooses to read the accounts, he will remain unaware of the depth of the hurt, and why it takes a long time to recover. Seems Paul was absent from the early church for at least 10 years (and I think closer to 20, but I don’t remember for sure) before he returned to be among them. It obviously took him a while to focus on the scriptures and forgive himself. And it took the believers of that day and time that long to be able to forgive him for killing their loved ones, also. It takes God and time both to heal a broken heart. But again, it’s his choice whether or not to read them and find out the details rather than be satisfied with the summaries he’s already read.
Deciderator also notes that he knows those trying to persuade him have honorable intentions, and he appreciates that. And the food fight continues.
Let’s explore the concept of due respect. It means the respect that has been earned via some action. It does not mean admiration, reverence, worship. Best analogy I can think of (being from Old South heritage) is with Melanie in Gone With The Wind. During Reconstruction, the leaders and shakers of the “old south brigade” decided they needed to go out to shantytown and clean it out, i.e., murder the ringleaders and set the whole place afire to force all those “no counts” out of their neighborhood. Moral? Not in my opinion, but to them, the right “their safety” justified the wrong “murder, burn out”. The old scoundrel (but somewhat loveable scoundrel, because he was honest about who he was and made no bones about it), Rhett Butler is able to save them from apprehension by the law and certain death by hanging, by saying they were at the wh*re house with he and his friend, Belle Watling. Well, Belle was nothing but trash, a madam for heaven’s sake, no morals, a disgrace to mankind. The wives, and other proper Southern ladies, were thankful their husband’s necks had been saved, but hated that they had to live with the disgrace of saying those good men had patronized the bordello. It was disgusting, dirty, and contemptible; almost better their men had died than have to live with such shame. And, by George, that scoundrel Rhett had purposely chosen to take them to Belle’s just so he could make a laughing stock out of the “old guard”. Well, they were tricked, so there was no way in he!! they would be “under obligation” to Rhett nor Belle. They had schemed and tricked their way into “deserving” gratitude from decent folks, therefore no gratitude was necessary and, by God, they wouldn’t give it to them. Noone, except Melanie. She was grateful to Belle for having saved her husband’s neck, and was proud to be “under obligation” (you did good for me, I will be pleased to return the favor to you) to Belle, even sent her a note saying she planned to “come to call” (go visit Belle at her home - which of course was in the bordello! - because, culturally, it was the requisite action to show thankfulness and respect). She did not approve of Belle’s lifestyle, in fact, was repulsed and horrified by it, but she was thankful and appreciative that Belle saved her husband’s life. She had due respect for what Belle had done to “bless” (yes, I think that’s the best description) her life. Some people thought Melanie was just a “ninny” and had lost her mind for feeling thankful and showing due respect. I think she was doing the right thing and showed great courage in acting on her convictions and what her heart told her was the right thing to do, despite what other’s thought of her. Poster’s here, such as I, can have due respect for vpw because he was the person who presented truths of God’s word to us that liberated us and helped us immensely on our personal spiritual journey. We have other’s that are accorded that same due respect for their helpfulness along our way. Some we do respect, admire, and love as human beings, also. For me personally, vpw is no longer worthy in my eyes of those attributes, but instead I feel contempt and horror for the things he did behind the scenes. His actions forfeited the respect I once had for him. However, he will always have my due respect, and nothing will ever change that. But I do not feel that makes me a vpw lover/defender/apologist/fan; those are untrue characterizations, in my opinion.
Lastly, here at GSC those who are pfal/twi/vpw rejecters have chosen many “spiritual” paths since their departure. Some are Christian, and within that framework may be independents (not affiliated with any organized group) or be aligned with Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, etc. churches. Some have returned to the Jewish faith, either with or without a belief in Jesus Christ. Others have chosen non Judeo-Christian groups such as Wiccans, or those into the metaphysical, or others. Some have become agnostics or atheists. And all their choices are allowed and respected, even if they are disturbing to some posters here. If pfal/twi/vpw rejecters are allowed such latitude and freedom of choice, why must those who have positive things to say about pfal/twi/vpw be pigeonholded as “Way brained twits that believe every word ever spoken by vpw, and still worship him”? Why shouldn’t they be given the same courtesy as the rejecters, to be able to express their individual thoughts and choices, versus being viewed as only and entirely supportive pfal/twi/vpw? Is it merely a black or white issue, or is there room for other colors in there too? (Say purple, for instance? It's my favorite.)
Don’t know what page this thread is up to now, but that’s all I have the energy to say right now. Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts and concerns.
Suda
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doojable
WordWolf - Look out ... :)
Thank you for the synopsis, Suda. I think you needed to get that all out.
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Deciderator
Suda, that was very well done.
< Deciderator stands and gives Suda a round of polite golf applause >
I guess I would have a quibble or two, but they would be too insignificant to waste time on.
Having someone else decide for me what I believe and what I think about various people and things is patently ridiculous when I have posted much to give my opinion.
It was annoying for the first couple of people to misinterpret what I said, but as the number grew it became giggle-inducing.
I posted that something important I took from PFAL was "THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD!"
That caused a lot of negative reaction, but I don't think any of them disagreed with the point.
When all this arguing is going on, the Bible remains a closed book, unless someone wants to find a verse to club someone else with.
A major reason I have refrained from the all-out attack on Mr. Wierwille, Mr. Martindale and others is not because I idolize them.
I try (with varying success) not to make personal attacks on Christians because even the worst of them are God's children and stand righteous and holy without blame in love before Him.
To say otherwise is to commit idolatry by exalting my word above that of my heavenly Father.
I believe there is a better way than holding on to grudges for decades. I know from personal experience how easy it is to get in such a rut and keep that righteous indignation going. I am well aware of the energy that takes. I also know that there comes a time to understand that in life there are things which do not get resolved, wrongs that don't get righted and holding on to all that gets to be a burden that weighs us down.
We need to trust God more to take care of those things.
It is often not until we let them go that we see how burdened we are and how confining it is because we get so used to carrying that weight around it just seems natural.
But then we forgive and suddenly life becomes lighter and with the negativity gone, we are able to spring forward with a lil boogaloo in our step and a smile that comes quicker because we know we have done the right thing.
And knowing that God wants us to forgive our enemies makes it easier to carry out His will.
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Suda
Thanks Dooj and Deciderator. And Dooj,
Me thinks your right!
Suda
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J0nny Ling0
Masterfully done Suda, and it is evident that the whole effort stemmed from the love of God, and not for your own personal gain. You are a sweet girl. Mmmmmwwwwwaaaahhh! (and, that was in fact a holy kiss!)
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GrouchoMarxJr
The simple answer to that question can be found by clicking on the "About us" on GreaseSpot's homepage:
"Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about the Way International and it's trustees."
Coming to this website and saying positive things about twi is akin to visiting an anti war website and posting positive things about war...Perhaps if this were a "neutral" website that encouraged differing points of view, positive statements regarding twi would be more appropriate.
When one considers the purpose and mission of this website, is it any wonder that positive statements about twi are not treated with courtesy???
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GrouchoMarxJr
...And the fact remains that people ARE allowed to make positive statements about twi here...THAT is courtesy enough.
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now I see
Ok, how bout this example, if someone kidnapped your sister and sexually abused her, would you be so ready to listen to how he was such an upstanding citizen? Wouldn't the upstanding part be obbliterated by the kidnapping and abuse part?
Were not we captivated by such a one, and were not some of our sisters abused?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Hey, if Jonny wants to consider himself a "has been", who are we to disagree?
All joking aside, to look back at your time with twi and to now consider yourself a "has been" because you no longer are doing what you did in twi...is very revealing in and of itself.
Personally, I look back at my time in twi as a waste of time...I am not a "has been"...I am a "Now is"...my life is better in every regard...financially, spiritually, mentally, etc, etc.
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Oakspear
I've got more comments on your post, but I have to go to work
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