With considerable distance between me now and when I was still a TWIthead, and being a bit more circumspect as a result, I find it remarkable that anyone even wants to blather on about the "good" stuff of WayWorld.
It strikes me like a bunch of mice reminiscing about how good the cheese was in the trap that caught them.
"Aw sure, that wire-thingy hurt a little bit, but BOY! that was some great cheese!"
It was a simple scam. We were duped, There's nothing of any real,lasting value in the "bait".
TWI and the offshoots are carrying on with a large part of PFAL and other teachings of VP. I don't see a problem with that... I see those groups as part of the body of Christ, and this is still the U.S. of America with freedom of religion as one of our beloved tenets.
Well - even a tumor is part of a body. It even has it's own blood supply. That doesn't make it a healthy part of the body.
I guess I see these offshoots in various degrees of spiritual decay.
Spiritually, The Body of Christ has no warts or decay.
Another one of those biggies learned in PFAL:
". . . As HE is, so are we in this world . . ." (I John 3: 2-3) :)
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Well - even a tumor is part of a body. It even has it's own blood supply. That doesn't make it a healthy part of the body.
I guess I see these offshoots in various degrees of spiritual decay.
Well, EVERY church is to some degree spiritually decayed, in that no church is spiritually perfect. I wondered how long it would be before we got back to stirring the pot, but I'm a little surprised to find you here, doojable. Breathe, in and out, slowly, in and out...
BTW, thanks to those of you who are trying to continue the list.
Larry - I said that there could be an unhealthy part of a body.
My point is that there are many members in the Body of Christ. Not all are necessarily healthy members. I think that is the point of the analogy in Corinthians - where it speaks of one part hurting.
Actually, I seem to remember two points to the analogy - but I'm going from memory here and I'd rather get my Bible and give it a look see. I'm real quick to acknowlege an error on my part if I messed it up.
How can you reconcile all of this and conclude things are merely alleged and to just "stay positive?" about a hugely negative force.
Actually this happens every day in many venues. Let's be honest. Here's one simple example: Do you drive? Then you are positive about driving and simply can't be bothered about the negatives. When was the last time you heard of someone quitting driving, because of sorrow over all the driving deaths?
WE are the Body of Christ. We are fallen people - that will be perfected.
Stop twisting scripture... <_<
OK, we'll play it your way. We are, in your own words, the Body of Christ that will be perfected.
I think TWI and the offshoots are entitled to the same standing, respect and freedom of choice.
Larry - I said that there could be an unhealthy part of a body.
My point is that there are many members in the Body of Christ. Not all are necessarily healthy members. I think that is the point of the analogy in Corinthians - where it speaks of one part hurting.
Actually, I seem to remember two points to the analogy - but I'm going from memory here and I'd rather get my Bible and give it a look see. I'm real quick to acknowlege an error on my part if I messed it up.
Feel free to go ahead though...
We both share something in common -- much of what I say regarding scripture is coming from what I remember. I haven't actually studied the Bible in years and about the only time I read it is when someone brings it up in discussion.
I have yet to see a member of the body that is 100% healthy. There are varying degrees of unhealthiness among us all. I think the point is -- What do you choose to focus on? I use to use the analogy of a rose. Looking at it it sure seems beautiful. But if you put it under a microscope you'll soon discover some flaws, nicks and what have you. I guess the rose is an ugly flower afterall.
We both share something in common -- much of what I say regarding scripture is coming from what I remember. I haven't actually studied the Bible in years and about the only time I read it is when someone brings it up in discussion.
I have yet to see a member of the body that is 100% healthy. There are varying degrees of unhealthiness among us all. I think the point is -- What do you choose to focus on? I use to use the analogy of a rose. Looking at it it sure seems beautiful. But if you put it under a microscope you'll soon discover some flaws, nicks and what have you. I guess the rose is an ugly flower afterall.
Well, my point is not to focus on the flaws. But, much like the warning on a pack of cigarettes, I have no problem with saying that something might make matters worst.
As I recall, in the OT the "watchman" was supposed to keep watch and sound a warning when danger was on the horizon. Sometimes that danger is in hindsight and stops the same mistakes from being repeated.
Oh - and the closer you look at a rose the more beautiful it becomes - because eventually you get past the nicks and flaws and you see the design of it all. ;)
Well, my point is not to focus on the flaws. But, much like the warning on a pack of cigarettes, I have no problem with saying that something might make matters worst.
I don't think anyone who regularly posts here hasn't already heard the warning. Why keep tooting your horn? If it's for those who lurk -- have you ever wonder why they continue to just lurk?
Oh - and the closer you look at a rose the more beautiful it becomes - because eventually you get past the nicks and flaws and you see the design of it all.
I've always seen the design of it. I'm one of those roses that have flaws and yet God is able to overlook them and still see what beauty I have within me.
You ever wonder why God allowed the history of His "chosen people" be recorded even though much of what you will read is a testimony to how flawed they were? I think it only illustrates how much we need Him -- His love and forgiveness. And how much -- despite our flaws -- God is still working in us -- yes -- even those who have turned their backs on Him. Maybe that's the lesson we were meant to see. Maybe we should learn how to love as He loves us despite our flaws.
You ever wonder why God allowed the history of His "chosen people" be recorded even though much of what you will read is a testimony to how flawed they were? I think it only illustrates how much we need Him -- His love and forgiveness. And how much -- despite our flaws -- God is still working in us -- yes -- even those who have turned their backs on Him. Maybe that's the lesson we were meant to see. Maybe we should learn how to love as He loves us despite our flaws.
I agree.
I do, however see value in the process of talking things out. We get to read about a lot of dysfunction in the Old Testament. We get to read it over and over and over and over...
Ever wonder if David is gonna say, "Sheesh! My thing with Bathsheba was over centuries ago! You guys talked about it way too much!"
I was talking to someone about forgiveness. The subject came up whether or not to forgive meant forgetting. We both agreed that "forgetting" was God's deal, but we had to remember what we were forgiven of - so that we valued the forgiveness granted to us.
Likewise I even remember why I forgive another person. It helps me - though I can't really say how. That's the only way I can state it. i wish I had more words to describe what runs through my mind here.
You ever wonder why God allowed the history of His "chosen people" be recorded even though much of what you will read is a testimony to how flawed they were?
Oh, and you have read my signature, haven't you? ;)
I don't think anyone who regularly posts here hasn't already heard the warning. Why keep tooting your horn? If it's for those who lurk -- have you ever wonder why they continue to just lurk?
I've always seen the design of it. I'm one of those roses that have flaws and yet God is able to overlook them and still see what beauty I have within me.
You ever wonder why God allowed the history of His "chosen people" be recorded even though much of what you will read is a testimony to how flawed they were? I think it only illustrates how much we need Him -- His love and forgiveness. And how much -- despite our flaws -- God is still working in us -- yes -- even those who have turned their backs on Him. Maybe that's the lesson we were meant to see. Maybe we should learn how to love as He loves us despite our flaws.
Larry:
Pardon me for sticking my nose in here but you are both (Larry and Dooj) saying the same thing at least as I read it. You say the above and Dooj said this:
"WE are the Body of Christ. We are fallen people - that will be perfected.
Larry - I said that there could be an unhealthy part of a body.
My point is that there are many members in the Body of Christ. Not all are necessarily healthy members. I think that is the point of the analogy in Corinthians - where it speaks of one part hurting."
The Bible does not tell us as you say to dwell upon the flaws but it does admonish us to help those members that are hurting because they do affect the entire body whether anyone likes it or not. Obviously perfection is not attainable in this wreched place, so lets not argue about it shall we? Physically alone our bodies are not perfect, they are flawed. Spiritually we are perfect but spititual perfection does not change the fact that physically or mentally we can get "sick" or hurt. We are told to tend the wounds and help our brothers and sister to heal.
But instead of doing what we are admonished to do many are analyzing somebodies pain and telling others how they sould feel. Imagine if you will....you just got a ten penny nail driven into your gut up to the head. You go to the doctor and tell him "ouch it hurts, can you fix it?" But instead of immediately helping you fix the problem and at least understanding that you are in pain and trying to illeviate that pain; he brings in half the staff to discuss just how much pain "they" think you are in or if it hurts at all. Then somebody asks you "How did this happen? Could you have simply moved out of the way? I think that this was your fault so just deal with it. Or better yet just get over it."
If you can even begin to understand that analogy then you are on your way to feeling true empathy for some of the victims of VP and the Way. Do these members of the body need healing? Yes. Do they deserve your help? According to the word that is a requirement, not a option. But hey, I'm not walking your walk. I choose to help my bretheren whenever and wherever I can. And that includes everyone here.
You dont agree with that? Ok...again not my walk.
And I am sorry for contributing to the crazyness here...but I just cant stand it anymore.
Not at all, Tom. I couldn't begin to fill his shoes, nor would I attempt to do so. He is both more learned and more eloquent than me, and I love reading and learning from his posts. They add so much to the cafe.
My notes are just to help me understand what's going on here. Since they seem to be helping others, I'll continue posting. When they are no longer desired, I will just keep them to myself.
This thread took off during a very busy time for me, so I was not able to keep up and when I'd check in, a new twist or turn had been taken. Just trying to go back to the beginning and see what happened, that's all. Pretty simple and direct.
With considerable distance between me now and when I was still a TWIthead, and being a bit more circumspect as a result, I find it remarkable that anyone even wants to blather on about the "good" stuff of WayWorld.
It strikes me like a bunch of mice reminiscing about how good the cheese was in the trap that caught them.
"Aw sure, that wire-thingy hurt a little bit, but BOY! that was some great cheese!"
It was a simple scam. We were duped, There's nothing of any real,lasting value in the "bait".
It was just bait, sorry...
I love this analogy! Its gotta be the best one --- ever.
With considerable distance between me now and when I was still a TWIthead, and being a bit more circumspect as a result, I find it remarkable that anyone even wants to blather on about the "good" stuff of WayWorld.
It strikes me like a bunch of mice reminiscing about how good the cheese was in the trap that caught them.
"Aw sure, that wire-thingy hurt a little bit, but BOY! that was some great cheese!"
It was a simple scam. We were duped, There's nothing of any real,lasting value in the "bait".
It was just bait, sorry...
Let this mouse blather on for just a sec.
I'm no apologist (read my posts if you like,or not)
pfal got me born again.
I don't believe THAT was a scam or that I got duped (by that).
That,to me,IS something of real,lasting value. Not mearly "bait".
I believe that twi went to hell in a handbasket.
I also believe that broad, sweeping generalizations (like yours) are always incorrect.
Too many varied experiences to be swept under one VERY broad statement.
Make room for MY experiences without insulting me and I'll do the same for yours.
Actually this happens every day in many venues. Let's be honest. Here's one simple example: Do you drive? Then you are positive about driving and simply can't be bothered about the negatives. When was the last time you heard of someone quitting driving, because of sorrow over all the driving deaths?
well let's see, oldies, i honestly quit going near any church or moggie
32 years ago, I took PFAL, stayed in 19 years...kept most of my 'way things'. I am now selling them on ebay and I have to say that I am shocked at the prices my items are going for and how many are 'watching' them.
Wierwille worship is alive and well,,,,, or maybe I should say alive and NOT WELL!!!!!!!!!
I learned that keeping my things for all these years is finally giving me back SOME of what I gave to twi.
I don't know. I did pray for my daughter over the cell phone while she was away at sea and sick with fever about a month ago, and daggone is she didn't get healed. It was something. She said that within a half hour she was fine. It was great for her to see God's healing power. But, I have no ministry, like many of my old friends from way days now have, and I don't even do a regular home fellowship anymore. I do have a friend, and old sheetrocking partner who fell from a scaffold and who is now paralyzed from the waist down, and I always feel guilty when I see him because I want him to be healed, but, I am afraid that if I bring it up, and he wants me to minister to him, that it won't happen. I just don't seem to have that "blind zeal" anymore, which really was a good thing, not a bad thing. But I pray for Gary Brummitt and would be so thrilled for him to be able to walk again. I know God can do it though.
Johnny
When I was still new in TWI, my cat got gangrene in her leg. The vet said they had to remove it. I asked him to wait until tomorrow -- I wanted to pray for healing. He told me the cat may be dead by then. I took her home and I prayed, prayed and prayed. Took her to the vet, the next day, and he told me she had been healed
I am into learning as much as I can about healing. I went to the healing rooms in Atlanta today and they prayed for me. It was with the zeal of the old days. I will explain more in a PM if you are interested
Here they are in your area -if you are interested
AlaskaHealing Rooms
Alaska Healing Rooms - Anchorage
Healing Rooms of Alaska, Inc., at Anchorage *
IAHR State Advisors for Alaska - Gary and Paula Allen
I was definitely released learning that we don't go to heaven right when we die. From the age of 12 I had contimplated suicide because why should we all be living down here in misery when we could be in heaven -- and then why did other's get to enjoy it longer? Thessalonians taught in the class made perfect sense to me -- as well as spiritual issues. I am happy I know what I know.
Nice point, outfield.
The idea that the dead immediately go to heaven is indeed an argument for suicide.
Since I learned that no one gets to heaven until Christ comes back, I have seen a few news articles where a child killed another and rationalized it as saying it was ok because the other child was going to heaven where they'd be happier.
Since I got the Hope anchored in my heart, I have been blessed by the benefits it brings to life.
Having the Hope brings joy on different levels and helps us stand steadfast on God's Word.
Geez Dot, I am not really able to get behind all this. I am a "has been" in my own mind. I mean, I am thankful for what God has done, but, I feel like my time has passed or whatever. I shouldn't, and I know that it's wrong, but, well, maybe this is a wake up call, I dunno. Have you ever heard of a thing called "minister burnout"? I think there is a book about it, with a name similar to the term. I just can't seem to get behind "getting involved" again, although, I believe that it really is the right thing to do, ya know? Geez...
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
George Aar
With considerable distance between me now and when I was still a TWIthead, and being a bit more circumspect as a result, I find it remarkable that anyone even wants to blather on about the "good" stuff of WayWorld.
It strikes me like a bunch of mice reminiscing about how good the cheese was in the trap that caught them.
"Aw sure, that wire-thingy hurt a little bit, but BOY! that was some great cheese!"
It was a simple scam. We were duped, There's nothing of any real,lasting value in the "bait".
It was just bait, sorry...
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doojable
Well - even a tumor is part of a body. It even has it's own blood supply. That doesn't make it a healthy part of the body.
I guess I see these offshoots in various degrees of spiritual decay.
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oldiesman
Spiritually, The Body of Christ has no warts or decay.
Another one of those biggies learned in PFAL:
". . . As HE is, so are we in this world . . ." (I John 3: 2-3) :)
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doojable
WE are the Body of Christ. We are fallen people - that will be perfected.
Stop twisting scripture... <_<
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Larry N Moore
Dooj, how do you define a "healthy body"? Is it one that's perfect?
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Jeaniam
Well, EVERY church is to some degree spiritually decayed, in that no church is spiritually perfect. I wondered how long it would be before we got back to stirring the pot, but I'm a little surprised to find you here, doojable. Breathe, in and out, slowly, in and out...
BTW, thanks to those of you who are trying to continue the list.
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doojable
Larry - I said that there could be an unhealthy part of a body.
My point is that there are many members in the Body of Christ. Not all are necessarily healthy members. I think that is the point of the analogy in Corinthians - where it speaks of one part hurting.
Actually, I seem to remember two points to the analogy - but I'm going from memory here and I'd rather get my Bible and give it a look see. I'm real quick to acknowlege an error on my part if I messed it up.
Feel free to go ahead though...
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oldiesman
Actually this happens every day in many venues. Let's be honest. Here's one simple example: Do you drive? Then you are positive about driving and simply can't be bothered about the negatives. When was the last time you heard of someone quitting driving, because of sorrow over all the driving deaths?
OK, we'll play it your way. We are, in your own words, the Body of Christ that will be perfected.
I think TWI and the offshoots are entitled to the same standing, respect and freedom of choice.
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Larry N Moore
We both share something in common -- much of what I say regarding scripture is coming from what I remember. I haven't actually studied the Bible in years and about the only time I read it is when someone brings it up in discussion.
I have yet to see a member of the body that is 100% healthy. There are varying degrees of unhealthiness among us all. I think the point is -- What do you choose to focus on? I use to use the analogy of a rose. Looking at it it sure seems beautiful. But if you put it under a microscope you'll soon discover some flaws, nicks and what have you. I guess the rose is an ugly flower afterall.
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doojable
Well, my point is not to focus on the flaws. But, much like the warning on a pack of cigarettes, I have no problem with saying that something might make matters worst.
As I recall, in the OT the "watchman" was supposed to keep watch and sound a warning when danger was on the horizon. Sometimes that danger is in hindsight and stops the same mistakes from being repeated.
Oh - and the closer you look at a rose the more beautiful it becomes - because eventually you get past the nicks and flaws and you see the design of it all. ;)
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Larry N Moore
I don't think anyone who regularly posts here hasn't already heard the warning. Why keep tooting your horn? If it's for those who lurk -- have you ever wonder why they continue to just lurk?
I've always seen the design of it. I'm one of those roses that have flaws and yet God is able to overlook them and still see what beauty I have within me.
You ever wonder why God allowed the history of His "chosen people" be recorded even though much of what you will read is a testimony to how flawed they were? I think it only illustrates how much we need Him -- His love and forgiveness. And how much -- despite our flaws -- God is still working in us -- yes -- even those who have turned their backs on Him. Maybe that's the lesson we were meant to see. Maybe we should learn how to love as He loves us despite our flaws.
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doojable
I agree.
I do, however see value in the process of talking things out. We get to read about a lot of dysfunction in the Old Testament. We get to read it over and over and over and over...
Ever wonder if David is gonna say, "Sheesh! My thing with Bathsheba was over centuries ago! You guys talked about it way too much!"
I was talking to someone about forgiveness. The subject came up whether or not to forgive meant forgetting. We both agreed that "forgetting" was God's deal, but we had to remember what we were forgiven of - so that we valued the forgiveness granted to us.
Likewise I even remember why I forgive another person. It helps me - though I can't really say how. That's the only way I can state it. i wish I had more words to describe what runs through my mind here.
Oh, and you have read my signature, haven't you? ;)
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Eyesopen
Larry:
Pardon me for sticking my nose in here but you are both (Larry and Dooj) saying the same thing at least as I read it. You say the above and Dooj said this:
"WE are the Body of Christ. We are fallen people - that will be perfected.
Larry - I said that there could be an unhealthy part of a body.
My point is that there are many members in the Body of Christ. Not all are necessarily healthy members. I think that is the point of the analogy in Corinthians - where it speaks of one part hurting."
The Bible does not tell us as you say to dwell upon the flaws but it does admonish us to help those members that are hurting because they do affect the entire body whether anyone likes it or not. Obviously perfection is not attainable in this wreched place, so lets not argue about it shall we? Physically alone our bodies are not perfect, they are flawed. Spiritually we are perfect but spititual perfection does not change the fact that physically or mentally we can get "sick" or hurt. We are told to tend the wounds and help our brothers and sister to heal.
But instead of doing what we are admonished to do many are analyzing somebodies pain and telling others how they sould feel. Imagine if you will....you just got a ten penny nail driven into your gut up to the head. You go to the doctor and tell him "ouch it hurts, can you fix it?" But instead of immediately helping you fix the problem and at least understanding that you are in pain and trying to illeviate that pain; he brings in half the staff to discuss just how much pain "they" think you are in or if it hurts at all. Then somebody asks you "How did this happen? Could you have simply moved out of the way? I think that this was your fault so just deal with it. Or better yet just get over it."
If you can even begin to understand that analogy then you are on your way to feeling true empathy for some of the victims of VP and the Way. Do these members of the body need healing? Yes. Do they deserve your help? According to the word that is a requirement, not a option. But hey, I'm not walking your walk. I choose to help my bretheren whenever and wherever I can. And that includes everyone here.
You dont agree with that? Ok...again not my walk.
And I am sorry for contributing to the crazyness here...but I just cant stand it anymore.
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Tom Strange
Suda... are you trying to put WW out of a job? :)
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Suda
Not at all, Tom. I couldn't begin to fill his shoes, nor would I attempt to do so. He is both more learned and more eloquent than me, and I love reading and learning from his posts. They add so much to the cafe.
My notes are just to help me understand what's going on here. Since they seem to be helping others, I'll continue posting. When they are no longer desired, I will just keep them to myself.
This thread took off during a very busy time for me, so I was not able to keep up and when I'd check in, a new twist or turn had been taken. Just trying to go back to the beginning and see what happened, that's all. Pretty simple and direct.
Thanks for asking, though.
Suda
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Dot Matrix
I love this analogy! Its gotta be the best one --- ever.
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exwaycorps
Let this mouse blather on for just a sec.
I'm no apologist (read my posts if you like,or not)
pfal got me born again.
I don't believe THAT was a scam or that I got duped (by that).
That,to me,IS something of real,lasting value. Not mearly "bait".
I believe that twi went to hell in a handbasket.
I also believe that broad, sweeping generalizations (like yours) are always incorrect.
Too many varied experiences to be swept under one VERY broad statement.
Make room for MY experiences without insulting me and I'll do the same for yours.
thankyouverymuch.
exwaycorps
(born again guy)
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WordWolf
Don't discourage her!
Do you know how long it takes to summarize a page and do it right?
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excathedra
ohmy this thread is still alive !!!!!!
well let's see, oldies, i honestly quit going near any church or moggie
but i still drive :)
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act2
Hi, Ex!!!!!!!!!!
32 years ago, I took PFAL, stayed in 19 years...kept most of my 'way things'. I am now selling them on ebay and I have to say that I am shocked at the prices my items are going for and how many are 'watching' them.
Wierwille worship is alive and well,,,,, or maybe I should say alive and NOT WELL!!!!!!!!!
I learned that keeping my things for all these years is finally giving me back SOME of what I gave to twi.
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Dot Matrix
Johnny
When I was still new in TWI, my cat got gangrene in her leg. The vet said they had to remove it. I asked him to wait until tomorrow -- I wanted to pray for healing. He told me the cat may be dead by then. I took her home and I prayed, prayed and prayed. Took her to the vet, the next day, and he told me she had been healed
I am into learning as much as I can about healing. I went to the healing rooms in Atlanta today and they prayed for me. It was with the zeal of the old days. I will explain more in a PM if you are interested
Here they are in your area -if you are interested
AlaskaHealing Rooms
Alaska Healing Rooms - Anchorage
Healing Rooms of Alaska, Inc., at Anchorage *
IAHR State Advisors for Alaska - Gary and Paula Allen
Directors Gary and Paula Allen
Location: 4300 B Street, Suite 505
Anchorage, AK 99503
Telephone: 907-258-2134
E-Mail: mail@healingrooms-ak.org
Web: www.healingrooms-ak.org
Hours: Thursdays 6:00 - 9:00pm
https://secure.healingrooms.com/index.php?
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Dot Matrix
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Deciderator
Nice point, outfield.
The idea that the dead immediately go to heaven is indeed an argument for suicide.
Since I learned that no one gets to heaven until Christ comes back, I have seen a few news articles where a child killed another and rationalized it as saying it was ok because the other child was going to heaven where they'd be happier.
Since I got the Hope anchored in my heart, I have been blessed by the benefits it brings to life.
Having the Hope brings joy on different levels and helps us stand steadfast on God's Word.
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J0nny Ling0
Geez Dot, I am not really able to get behind all this. I am a "has been" in my own mind. I mean, I am thankful for what God has done, but, I feel like my time has passed or whatever. I shouldn't, and I know that it's wrong, but, well, maybe this is a wake up call, I dunno. Have you ever heard of a thing called "minister burnout"? I think there is a book about it, with a name similar to the term. I just can't seem to get behind "getting involved" again, although, I believe that it really is the right thing to do, ya know? Geez...
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