You need not make a commitment to him right now, or ever, take the pressure off. HE is keeping his commitment to you.
He will never leave you or forsake you.
He has heard you
He will wipe the tears from your eyes.
Let him love you, now this time really get out of the computer and take care. Let the lord's promises to you be realized, it is okay to yell "Where were you?"
He will answer you.
Its okay. It hasn't been but it will be okay. Not what happened, but your future is going to be okay.
It is okay
Love you...
Now get off the computer, let the healing wash over you like the ocean on a hot summer day.
Just wondering...When I first took the class...to learn that I could get born again and have eternal life I was amazed!
To learn that Jesus Christ is not God...That made the perfect sense. To learn that when I die, I don't go to Heaven right away also made the perfect sense. These are really big things I never knew before the class and teach my children these truths.
I've heard there was alot of errors in PFAL, but these few things...do you still believe them to be true? Just wondering...
And ya know, that scene at the hospital, and my Dad's healing has become a cool thing in our family's history. Pop lived for another twenty years after that, and that "And thank you so much son, I am so proud of you" thing brings tears to my eyes every time I think of it. Even right now.
Jonny,
I've been thinking about this since yesterday. I want to say this in the right way. I don't know what you're doing now with the gift of working of miracles and healing but, I just feel like there are many more miracles and healings to be done by you stretching forth your hands to heal and to bless. I pray that remembering this great miracle here would be a reminder that the best is yet to come and to encourage you to stretch out your faith when there are opportunities to minister and watch the power of God work in you to bring glory to Him. He will back up your words and prayers for the sick and hurting with signs and wonders following!
I don't know. I did pray for my daughter over the cell phone while she was away at sea and sick with fever about a month ago, and daggone is she didn't get healed. It was something. She said that within a half hour she was fine. It was great for her to see God's healing power. But, I have no ministry, like many of my old friends from way days now have, and I don't even do a regular home fellowship anymore. I do have a friend, and old sheetrocking partner who fell from a scaffold and who is now paralyzed from the waist down, and I always feel guilty when I see him because I want him to be healed, but, I am afraid that if I bring it up, and he wants me to minister to him, that it won't happen. I just don't seem to have that "blind zeal" anymore, which really was a good thing, not a bad thing. But I pray for Gary Brummitt and would be so thrilled for him to be able to walk again. I know God can do it though.
I don't know. I did pray for my daughter over the cell phone while she was away at sea and sick with fever about a month ago, and daggone is she didn't get healed. It was something. She said that within a half hour she was fine. It was great for her to see God's healing power.
Another great testimony!
But, I have no ministry, like many of my old friends from way days now have, and I don't even do a regular home fellowship anymore. I do have a friend, and old sheetrocking partner who fell from a scaffold and who is now paralyzed from the waist down, and I always feel guilty when I see him because I want him to be healed, but, I am afraid that if I bring it up, and he wants me to minister to him, that it won't happen. I just don't seem to have that "blind zeal" anymore, which really was a good thing, not a bad thing. But I pray for Gary Brummitt and would be so thrilled for him to be able to walk again. I know God can do it though.
Great thing is how God works through earthen vessels so He can get the glory. I know God's gifts and callings are irrevocable, so I'd say "go for it." I really feel He wants to work in you even greater than ever before.
Suda, really helps put things in perspective for me. Even 20 years out it's still confusing how something that seemed so good and that put me on a path of seeking and knowing God could have such a root of corruption. I'm thankful for your wisdom.
Dot, I got goosebumps reading your prayer, I know I received from it and I'm so thankful for God's healing power being released here. I want to be your "prayer partner".
and having your dad say how proud he is of his son must be one of the greatest greatest blessings in the entire world
Yeah ExCath, it really was something and still is. And, it meant so much to me too, because I had been nothing but trouble to my family ever since first grade. I was a terrible student, a classroom hellion, wise arse, attention seeking moron. I was expelled from one school for fighting, sent to another junior high on a promise to "turn over a new leaf", became a major stoner in ninth grade, and in a cloud of marijuana smoke, finally dropped out of high school in the tenth grade. I did join the Merchant Marines when I was sixteen after I dropped out, and I began to look as if I was going to "turn into something" as I began my career at sea and sailing the world. But two years later I got involved in The Way, much to may parent's dismay, and I became a disappointment again when I went WOW. But, it was the day I returned home from being a WOW that I found that my Dad was in the hospital. And, then after he was healed, he said that. And it still touches me to think of it.
Much later though, after I had gone back to working as a Merchant Marine and was long gone from The Way, something hit me very hard. I was in the engine room of one of the ships I was on, and I had just attained "permanent status" as an engineer aboard the same ship my daughter is now working on. And I remember as I was standing, looking aft between the two monstrous diesel engines that were running full ahead, my engines, my babies, that the thought hit me, like right in the guts. I thought. "Geez, if only Dad could see me now, I finally have a real job". But by then he had passed away. And I burst into sobbing tears and had to go and hide behind the oily water separator till I got over it. I guess there is something very powerful about wanting "Dad's approval". But I am buoyed by what he said to me in that intensive care unit though...
Great thing is how God works through earthen vessels so He can get the glory. I know God's gifts and callings are irrevocable, so I'd say "go for it." I really feel He wants to work in you even greater than ever before.
Thanks W and W. But, I' kind of wary about it all. But I will just try to be there if someone needs me I guess. I'll just keep praying for my friend Gary. I certainly wouldn't want to give him a false hope.
And Suda. What a most excellent post! It was the first thing I read this morning also. Not only was your point very well taken, but you are an excellent writer. Your thoughts were very well put together, and your spelling and grammar very good. Thanks!
Lifted, why does it bother you so much??? I must assume that you are referring to me...and me refusing to give you names of people that wished to remain annonymous. IF they had wanted others to know, they would have posted themselves to the forums as a whole. You put me in a very bad position then. It was also a little unsetteling to be pushed for private information.
I explained then, I could not give you the name of source of my information. You just won`t let it drop....the story though I was given permission by the person to relate (because it was so similar to mine) was so personal and embaressing that the person who had shared it with me ASKED that I not reveal their name.
Dove and Jonny and Johniam, and oldies calloused regard and cruel behavior is a prime example of exactly WHY she didn`t want her name used. As you have seen here.....a perfect example of personal first hand testimony NOT being good enough for some ..... and the girls whom share it have their reputations, their characters and their judgement brought into question. The fact that they were young, that they trusted their minister, that they were in many cases drugged...that there are multiple first hand accounts that are strikingly similar....it just won`t be enough for a person whom is afraid to question their beliefs.
For some, it will NEVER be enough.....THAT was what I told you when you pressed for identities that were not mine to reveal. It kind of bothers me that you keep referring to this year after year like it was some kind of personal insult to you....it wasn`t it was what it was.....Me refusing to breach someone elses trust. I am sorry that my answere has bothered you so.
I
Yea, Rascal...first of all, in my mind, since our discussions were private...to the extent no one was cyber-eavesdropping on our PMs...I had the thought in my mind that I was not revealing to anyone else who had made the statements I talked about. Assuming I was right (whether or not I was), I still should have had more regard for your peace of mind. That is, even though no one else knew about our exchanges, I can see where it would still bug you. I should have had more consideration and I am sorry.
In no way did I or would I expect you to give me names, although I can see how I could have conveyed that impression. That would have to come directly from the person giving the testimony by that person's choice (which has happened in one case since that PM exchange).
Regarding the point I was TRYING to make, about whether or not I would believe personal testimony if I had it, it is very understandable about not being believed, considering some of the "discussion" on this thread. Your reply coulld not have been personal, since on a personal basis we REALLY dont know each other...just know some things about each other. Kind of like understanding the refusal of an old H.S. classmate to go more than a millimeter into e-mail exchanges. He's a celebrity, and I suppose he has run into other people who think he owes them something (or worse, who think he owes them something because they once knew him almost 40 years ago).
I could launch into what I think is a pretty good defense of the importance I attach to pesonal testimony, which would probably be answered by you in the vein of what happens to those who dare to give that testimony. So I will call it a wash and not get more into it.
Sorry Lifted, I thought that you were smacking me with that answere over and over. I felt pretty trapped. It would have been a betrayal of trust to tell anybody another posters name....even in private message. I won`t do that.
Page 2 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread)
Hot buttons and Passions
No questions or comments pertaining to page 3. Both pro-PFAL and con-PFAL “arguments” were presented well. Many good points made on both “sides” that were explained fully.
Page 4. More good discussion. Some posters noted that PFAL gave great freedom due to new information they learned from the Bible, other noted they already knew these things prior to PFAL and thus did not experience the same feeling of enlightenment. Others seemed bored, and found no useful Biblical information at all, but did gain good life lessons from their involvement with twi.
Hot button “the law of believing” arises. Some see this as “I want it, so God must give it to me”, others see it as prayer answered. Must admit, when I first heard about “the law of believing”, I thought it sounded very much like the popular ideas at that time of the “Power of Positive Thinking” and “Mind Over Matter”. No doubt those concepts help, but they are not “absolutes”. It is God who answers prayers. We are the askers. He may or may not answer them, that is His business. But I see great power in prayer and cannot imagine any harm it could ever inflict. But the “law of believing” did inflict much harm, as well discussed and documented here at GSC. Mr. Hammeroni gives good advice that prayer is but one tool in the belt. Often it works best when accompanied by professionals and experts in the field; i.e. (my words) if you are having a heart attack pray on the way to the ER; don’t rely on prayer alone to heal you. There’s nothing wrong with 2nd, 3rd, and any “level” of aid. Seek them all out!
Rascal introduces her passion(s) quite well in several posts. It is evident from replies on later pages that what she says is often “lost in translation”, and some of the same “usual suspects” chime in and their mutual “song and dance routine” starts again in this thread. Below, I’ll try to summarize some of the points she makes that seem to be “lost in translation”. Rascal, if I am misrepresenting what you meant, please do post and correct me.
(Rascal #1) Indeed, there are truths in PFAL, but they are not exclusive to PFAL, nor is taking the class a necessity to be able to operate the power of God in one’s life. Non-PFAL grads receive answers to prayer and experience miracles in their lives just the same as PFAL grads.
(Rascal #2) Your relationship with God is personal and unique; it is not based on formulas nor magic words and your ability to operate them. Bad things do happen to good people, but the individual is not necessarily at fault. As the saying goes, “S hit happens.” God didn’t promise us a rose garden with no thorns.
(Rascal #3) Knowledge can “puff on up” if learning new things and having a scholarly knowledge is the only goal. The purpose of the knowledge is to use it as your guidebook for living and apply it lovingly as Jesus Christ did. It’s a means to an end, not an end in itself. In fact, there’s a real danger to knowledge if it takes priority over lovingly applying it in a Godly manner.
(Rascal #4) Biblical knowledge does not guarantee a Godly lifestyle. It must be applied. If ignored, self-confessed Christians can lead very evil lives. It is imperative to change your actions to line up with your knowledge, not twist the knowledge to justify your actions. People with a lot of Biblical knowledge can also misuse the scriptures to manipulate you and hurt you if they twist the meanings to suit their desires and “guilt trip” you into accepting their truth over what your gut tells you is true. The intent of the scripture is as important as the scripture itself. Beware of those who bend scripture, or take scripture out of context, and try to sell you on it. A person who has knowledge of the scriptures is not necessarily a Christian. A better indicator is the “fruit of the spirit” that is manifested (or not manifested) in their lives. If their behavior lines up with the “carnal” man, then they are most likely carnal, and not spiritual.
(Rascal #5) Because of the misuse of PFAL by the teacher, she feels his example makes PFAL dangerous because people were/are/could be motivated to follow the example of the teacher in his private persona as well as his public persona.
(Rascal #6) She celebrates the miracles and good memories that happened in her life as well as others while with twi. However, she is devastated by the evil she allowed in her life because she thought she was following God, as well as the evil perpetrated against other innocent believers. These things, coupled with learning of all the “behind the scenes” evil knocked her for a loop and pulled the rug out from under her. It left her shaken to the core of her being, doubtful, and confused. She’s working her way out of the quagmire slowly but surely, and finds GSC to be a haven in her recuperation. This healing process, and all her doubts, fear, worries, and anxieties are her passions now, and she has a heartfelt need to share this with others who are unaware and/or who are also in the recovery process. She still yearns for answers to many questions, and her passion in telling her story is to aid her in finding those answers through the help of others. Major questions that still haunts her include: Where was God? Was the good we reaped worth the cost of abuse to others first, me second?
Due to Rascal’s tenacity and willingness to continue to “the fight to post” in the midst of “accusers”, I believe she will find that peace she longs for.
I don't know. I did pray for my daughter over the cell phone while she was away at sea and sick with fever about a month ago, and daggone is she didn't get healed. It was something. She said that within a half hour she was fine. It was great for her to see God's healing power.
That one reminds me of a couple of times I got healed.
Once I was feeling wretchedly ill and just couldn't make it to twig at another chap's home. I called him up to tell him I couldn't make it.
We prayed and I was feeling somewhat better right away and in about 5 or 10 minutes was feeling fit as a fiddle.
The other one was a time I went to twig and had injured my neck at work. I don't know what was wrong with it, all I know was it was hurting like the dickens when I got to twig and I had to hold my head just so to keep shooting pains at bay. I had to hold my Bible up in front of me and couldn't bend over it like I normally did.
So we had a nice meeting with songs, manifestations, a teaching, ABS and then fellowship.
I can still recal standing in the kitchen when the twig coordinator asked me if there was anything he could do for me and my hand went up automatically to my neck as I said, "Yes, you can heal uhhhhhhhh, uhhhhhhhhhh, uhhhhhhhh, well, I was going to say you could take care of my neck but it's doing just fine!" I then was quite amazed to be able to turn it every which way and did so, wildly twisting it all around, thrilled to have full range of motion, no more pain.
I learned to not, at least try not, to underestimate the power of God's Word and speaking in tongues.
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45)
Hot buttons, Passions, Raw Nerves, and Pet Peeves
Page 5 starts off with a bang with Deciderator’s post #82. It is awesome. It also hits some raw nerves and hot buttons. You can tell by reading it that his passion is “THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!”, and his passion is of itself a hot button, for some, Rascal included, as delineated in my previous post. The point I believe she may have missed in his post was
Sometime in there I got to understand that the Word must not just be rightly divided academically in terms of the Bible, but it must also be rightly divided in terms of when and where and how it is presented.”
“(Bold added by me.) Actually, they agree on this point. However, their passions differ significantly. His passion is stick to the Word, focus on it and nothing else. Study it, teach it, and apply it correctly.
There were difficult times, but by concentrating on what was important - the Word, the Word and nothing but God's wonderful matchless Word, I was spared some of what others went through.”
It works for him (but not for others, thus, making it a hot button for some.)
A pet peeve of his seems to be (several separate comments I have “strung together” and highlighted for purposes of clarity).
Focusing on darkness doesn't bring light and picking on the errors of others only satisfies the ego. . . . it is my opinion that those who spend so much time and energy cracking on The Way and various individuals and what was published and in PFAL are largely spinning their wheels and feeding their ego more than anything else. That time and effort could be better spent holding forth the light of the Word and blessing God's people that way. . . .I believe the thing to do is concentrate on holding forth what is right and believing God to get you in front of those in the Way or any other outfit you think is in error. . . Be confident in the Truth and be confident that God will help people get to it.”
His pet peeve is another’s hot button. Focus on the good, dismiss the bad. Speak the truth and make the darkness dispel rather than dwelling on the darkness. Very good advice for those like him that “I was spared some of what others went through”, but not too sound for those who were not spared and need to work their way through the darkness so they can dwell in the light. What he interprets as “ego” may actually be “id” or “superego”. When someone’s psyche has been damaged, exploring the causes probably will require revisiting and reexamining the darkness. For most here at GSC this must include close examination of the organization, the leadership, the teachings, the whole shebang. To repair the damage to the psyche, they must understand the “what, when, where, how and who” of it to be able to overcome it. Wading through the cesspool is not pretty, but for many it is necessary. Also, “feeding their ego” could be received as “egotistical”, and that can put readers on the defensive. If taken as “fighting” words, civility is diminished.
Another hot button, some of his wording may come across as “Way Speak”. Some here interpret that as being “Way brained” or “still being brainwashed by the cult” or “incapable of independent thought”. Deciderator comes across to me as being an independent thinker. He does adopt ideas from others, but only after thorough and careful consideration. I think his screen name speaks volumes on this note. I have found here at GSC that many avoid anything resembling “Way Speak” with as great an intensity as we adopted it when in twi. We celebrate the freedom of shouting “Christmas” in the same degree to which we avoid saying “bless” or “share” or “The Word” or “hold forth”, etc. Personally, I think lots of the “Way Speak” is great and a perfect expression of some of my thoughts and feelings, and I do not feel it necessary to avoid “being me” by using other words that do not convey my meaning as well, but would not offend others. I’ve got to be honest and “keep it simple, stupid” and can’t hide behind words that are not “me”. That to me smacks of lying, people pleasing, and conforming to fit in, in order to be accepted. And I’m not comfortable with any of those things.
He also hits the plagiarism hot button. To some people, take Raf for example, who is a professional journalist, plagiarism is a big no-no, no excuses, never, no way, no how. I respect that about him and others who hold a similar view. As I’ve stated before, I was always under the impression that vpw did learn from other sources and incorporate their ideas into his teachings because he made no secret of it. I still have not looked deeply into the whole sections that were lifted word-for-word and published as his own. I have no reason to doubt it’s true, and agree that it was wrong, no if, ands, or buts about it. Eventually I’ll get to it - just not a priority to me at this time. At the same time, I agree with Deciderator on
I don't care if what I was taught was plagiarized from someone -All I want is God's Word, and if I hear it from VP Wierwille or L. Craig Martindale or Benny Hinn, I don't care because I'm not into the celebrity worship nor am I a good person because of the religious club I belong to.
Some can accept that, some can’t, and that’s why it’s a hot button.
And he hits another biggie - Chris Geer is a major raw nerve and hot button around here, and for good reason. The following statement wasn’t the way to “win friends, and influence people” in the opinion of many here at GSC, but he still has the right to state it without being ashamed.
So I went to Gartmore and learned a lot and had a great time and met some wonderful people. I got the light I needed.
And this comment really hit home with me.
I didn't need to know any of that stuff and I don't have a need to read these documents and other stuff posted here.
It reminded me of my early days here. I walk into the café, scope out the place, and am soon surrounded by the welcoming committee that is eager to show me their favorite exhibits on display here. It was overwhelming. I was like “Jump back, Jack! Give me a chance to meander around the place at my own pace, and pick the exhibits I want to see in the order I want to see them. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but give me some space. I have no desire to as much as glance at some of your exhibits now, but I've made a mental note of your suggestions for future reference. Give me some time. Let me get comfortable. Let me establish a rapport with you folks, get to know you better. Then I may decide to check out your favorite exhibits. If I can’t find them, I’ll ask for directions. People here are welcoming and friendly so I’m sure someone will point me in the right direction when I am ready.” Thankfully, they did.
When a newbie comes in and makes a confident, bold post that hits hot buttons, raw nerves, pet peeves, watch out - a food fight is on the way. How could it not be? Notice I did not say the newbie tried to incite a riot, nor threw the first punch, nor anything along those lines. But because he “stepped on some toes” and stirred passions, people will react, some more aggressively and passionately than others. But that’s what GSC is all about. And it can be overwhelming to the newbies, for better or worse.
That's all for tonight, folks. Good night and sweet dreams!
When a newbie comes in and makes a confident, bold post that hits hot buttons, raw nerves, pet peeves, watch out - a food fight is on the way. How could it not be? Notice I did not say the newbie tried to incite a riot, nor threw the first punch, nor anything along those lines. But because he “stepped on some toes”, people will react, some more aggressively and passionately than others. But that’s what GSC is all about. And it can be overwhelming to the newbies, for better or worse.
That's all for tonight, folks. Good night and sweet dreams!
Suda
That's true on every messageboard, and it's especially true here.
Suda you are doing such a great job of reviewing the thread I wonder if you might do the Threadkiller thread when you are done here it's only 63 pages but since it is locked now at least you wont have any pages added.
People are willing to believe that VPW did have wrong sex with people, be it rape or adultery.
1 Corinthians 5:9-11
New International Version (NIV)
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
So, what do you think Jesus would want us to do? Keep going to his church? Defend him?
I think Jesus would want us to hold fast to the good. TWI is no longer VPW's church and this verse is obviously talking about present day associations. VP founded twi, but he's been dead for 22 years.
TWI and the offshoots are carrying on with a large part of PFAL and other teachings of VP. I don't see a problem with that... I see those groups as part of the body of Christ, and this is still the U.S. of America with freedom of religion as one of our beloved tenets.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Dot Matrix
You need not make a commitment to him right now, or ever, take the pressure off. HE is keeping his commitment to you.
He will never leave you or forsake you.
He has heard you
He will wipe the tears from your eyes.
Let him love you, now this time really get out of the computer and take care. Let the lord's promises to you be realized, it is okay to yell "Where were you?"
He will answer you.
Its okay. It hasn't been but it will be okay. Not what happened, but your future is going to be okay.
It is okay
Love you...
Now get off the computer, let the healing wash over you like the ocean on a hot summer day.
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exwaycorps
Dot...Suda
Whoa !!
First two posts I read this morning
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exwaycorps
I do Doreen.
Shall we try to start afresh? :)
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wrdsandwrks
Jonny,
I've been thinking about this since yesterday. I want to say this in the right way. I don't know what you're doing now with the gift of working of miracles and healing but, I just feel like there are many more miracles and healings to be done by you stretching forth your hands to heal and to bless. I pray that remembering this great miracle here would be a reminder that the best is yet to come and to encourage you to stretch out your faith when there are opportunities to minister and watch the power of God work in you to bring glory to Him. He will back up your words and prayers for the sick and hurting with signs and wonders following!
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J0nny Ling0
Geez WW,
I don't know. I did pray for my daughter over the cell phone while she was away at sea and sick with fever about a month ago, and daggone is she didn't get healed. It was something. She said that within a half hour she was fine. It was great for her to see God's healing power. But, I have no ministry, like many of my old friends from way days now have, and I don't even do a regular home fellowship anymore. I do have a friend, and old sheetrocking partner who fell from a scaffold and who is now paralyzed from the waist down, and I always feel guilty when I see him because I want him to be healed, but, I am afraid that if I bring it up, and he wants me to minister to him, that it won't happen. I just don't seem to have that "blind zeal" anymore, which really was a good thing, not a bad thing. But I pray for Gary Brummitt and would be so thrilled for him to be able to walk again. I know God can do it though.
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wrdsandwrks
Another great testimony!
Great thing is how God works through earthen vessels so He can get the glory. I know God's gifts and callings are irrevocable, so I'd say "go for it." I really feel He wants to work in you even greater than ever before.
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excathedra
and having your dad say how proud he is of his son must be one of the greatest greatest blessings in the entire world
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wrdsandwrks
Agreement here!
Suda, really helps put things in perspective for me. Even 20 years out it's still confusing how something that seemed so good and that put me on a path of seeking and knowing God could have such a root of corruption. I'm thankful for your wisdom.
Dot, I got goosebumps reading your prayer, I know I received from it and I'm so thankful for God's healing power being released here. I want to be your "prayer partner".
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J0nny Ling0
Yeah ExCath, it really was something and still is. And, it meant so much to me too, because I had been nothing but trouble to my family ever since first grade. I was a terrible student, a classroom hellion, wise arse, attention seeking moron. I was expelled from one school for fighting, sent to another junior high on a promise to "turn over a new leaf", became a major stoner in ninth grade, and in a cloud of marijuana smoke, finally dropped out of high school in the tenth grade. I did join the Merchant Marines when I was sixteen after I dropped out, and I began to look as if I was going to "turn into something" as I began my career at sea and sailing the world. But two years later I got involved in The Way, much to may parent's dismay, and I became a disappointment again when I went WOW. But, it was the day I returned home from being a WOW that I found that my Dad was in the hospital. And, then after he was healed, he said that. And it still touches me to think of it.
Much later though, after I had gone back to working as a Merchant Marine and was long gone from The Way, something hit me very hard. I was in the engine room of one of the ships I was on, and I had just attained "permanent status" as an engineer aboard the same ship my daughter is now working on. And I remember as I was standing, looking aft between the two monstrous diesel engines that were running full ahead, my engines, my babies, that the thought hit me, like right in the guts. I thought. "Geez, if only Dad could see me now, I finally have a real job". But by then he had passed away. And I burst into sobbing tears and had to go and hide behind the oily water separator till I got over it. I guess there is something very powerful about wanting "Dad's approval". But I am buoyed by what he said to me in that intensive care unit though...
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J0nny Ling0
Thanks W and W. But, I' kind of wary about it all. But I will just try to be there if someone needs me I guess. I'll just keep praying for my friend Gary. I certainly wouldn't want to give him a false hope.
And Suda. What a most excellent post! It was the first thing I read this morning also. Not only was your point very well taken, but you are an excellent writer. Your thoughts were very well put together, and your spelling and grammar very good. Thanks!
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excathedra
i wish your dad could have seen you then, too
but he'll know
at that time "even as we're known"
you're a good son
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Lifted Up
Yea, Rascal...first of all, in my mind, since our discussions were private...to the extent no one was cyber-eavesdropping on our PMs...I had the thought in my mind that I was not revealing to anyone else who had made the statements I talked about. Assuming I was right (whether or not I was), I still should have had more regard for your peace of mind. That is, even though no one else knew about our exchanges, I can see where it would still bug you. I should have had more consideration and I am sorry.
In no way did I or would I expect you to give me names, although I can see how I could have conveyed that impression. That would have to come directly from the person giving the testimony by that person's choice (which has happened in one case since that PM exchange).
Regarding the point I was TRYING to make, about whether or not I would believe personal testimony if I had it, it is very understandable about not being believed, considering some of the "discussion" on this thread. Your reply coulld not have been personal, since on a personal basis we REALLY dont know each other...just know some things about each other. Kind of like understanding the refusal of an old H.S. classmate to go more than a millimeter into e-mail exchanges. He's a celebrity, and I suppose he has run into other people who think he owes them something (or worse, who think he owes them something because they once knew him almost 40 years ago).
I could launch into what I think is a pretty good defense of the importance I attach to pesonal testimony, which would probably be answered by you in the vein of what happens to those who dare to give that testimony. So I will call it a wash and not get more into it.
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rascal
Sorry Lifted, I thought that you were smacking me with that answere over and over. I felt pretty trapped. It would have been a betrayal of trust to tell anybody another posters name....even in private message. I won`t do that.
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J0nny Ling0
Geez ExCath, you just melted my heart. I am sorry for anything I ever said that may have hurt you and I wish you only the very best. Bless your heart.
Kevin
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Suda
Page 2 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread)
Hot buttons and Passions
No questions or comments pertaining to page 3. Both pro-PFAL and con-PFAL “arguments” were presented well. Many good points made on both “sides” that were explained fully.
Page 4. More good discussion. Some posters noted that PFAL gave great freedom due to new information they learned from the Bible, other noted they already knew these things prior to PFAL and thus did not experience the same feeling of enlightenment. Others seemed bored, and found no useful Biblical information at all, but did gain good life lessons from their involvement with twi.
Hot button “the law of believing” arises. Some see this as “I want it, so God must give it to me”, others see it as prayer answered. Must admit, when I first heard about “the law of believing”, I thought it sounded very much like the popular ideas at that time of the “Power of Positive Thinking” and “Mind Over Matter”. No doubt those concepts help, but they are not “absolutes”. It is God who answers prayers. We are the askers. He may or may not answer them, that is His business. But I see great power in prayer and cannot imagine any harm it could ever inflict. But the “law of believing” did inflict much harm, as well discussed and documented here at GSC. Mr. Hammeroni gives good advice that prayer is but one tool in the belt. Often it works best when accompanied by professionals and experts in the field; i.e. (my words) if you are having a heart attack pray on the way to the ER; don’t rely on prayer alone to heal you. There’s nothing wrong with 2nd, 3rd, and any “level” of aid. Seek them all out!
Rascal introduces her passion(s) quite well in several posts. It is evident from replies on later pages that what she says is often “lost in translation”, and some of the same “usual suspects” chime in and their mutual “song and dance routine” starts again in this thread. Below, I’ll try to summarize some of the points she makes that seem to be “lost in translation”. Rascal, if I am misrepresenting what you meant, please do post and correct me.
(Rascal #1) Indeed, there are truths in PFAL, but they are not exclusive to PFAL, nor is taking the class a necessity to be able to operate the power of God in one’s life. Non-PFAL grads receive answers to prayer and experience miracles in their lives just the same as PFAL grads.
(Rascal #2) Your relationship with God is personal and unique; it is not based on formulas nor magic words and your ability to operate them. Bad things do happen to good people, but the individual is not necessarily at fault. As the saying goes, “S hit happens.” God didn’t promise us a rose garden with no thorns.
(Rascal #3) Knowledge can “puff on up” if learning new things and having a scholarly knowledge is the only goal. The purpose of the knowledge is to use it as your guidebook for living and apply it lovingly as Jesus Christ did. It’s a means to an end, not an end in itself. In fact, there’s a real danger to knowledge if it takes priority over lovingly applying it in a Godly manner.
(Rascal #4) Biblical knowledge does not guarantee a Godly lifestyle. It must be applied. If ignored, self-confessed Christians can lead very evil lives. It is imperative to change your actions to line up with your knowledge, not twist the knowledge to justify your actions. People with a lot of Biblical knowledge can also misuse the scriptures to manipulate you and hurt you if they twist the meanings to suit their desires and “guilt trip” you into accepting their truth over what your gut tells you is true. The intent of the scripture is as important as the scripture itself. Beware of those who bend scripture, or take scripture out of context, and try to sell you on it. A person who has knowledge of the scriptures is not necessarily a Christian. A better indicator is the “fruit of the spirit” that is manifested (or not manifested) in their lives. If their behavior lines up with the “carnal” man, then they are most likely carnal, and not spiritual.
(Rascal #5) Because of the misuse of PFAL by the teacher, she feels his example makes PFAL dangerous because people were/are/could be motivated to follow the example of the teacher in his private persona as well as his public persona.
(Rascal #6) She celebrates the miracles and good memories that happened in her life as well as others while with twi. However, she is devastated by the evil she allowed in her life because she thought she was following God, as well as the evil perpetrated against other innocent believers. These things, coupled with learning of all the “behind the scenes” evil knocked her for a loop and pulled the rug out from under her. It left her shaken to the core of her being, doubtful, and confused. She’s working her way out of the quagmire slowly but surely, and finds GSC to be a haven in her recuperation. This healing process, and all her doubts, fear, worries, and anxieties are her passions now, and she has a heartfelt need to share this with others who are unaware and/or who are also in the recovery process. She still yearns for answers to many questions, and her passion in telling her story is to aid her in finding those answers through the help of others. Major questions that still haunts her include: Where was God? Was the good we reaped worth the cost of abuse to others first, me second?
Due to Rascal’s tenacity and willingness to continue to “the fight to post” in the midst of “accusers”, I believe she will find that peace she longs for.
End of page 4 (of 45 as of now)
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Deciderator
That one reminds me of a couple of times I got healed.
Once I was feeling wretchedly ill and just couldn't make it to twig at another chap's home. I called him up to tell him I couldn't make it.
We prayed and I was feeling somewhat better right away and in about 5 or 10 minutes was feeling fit as a fiddle.
The other one was a time I went to twig and had injured my neck at work. I don't know what was wrong with it, all I know was it was hurting like the dickens when I got to twig and I had to hold my head just so to keep shooting pains at bay. I had to hold my Bible up in front of me and couldn't bend over it like I normally did.
So we had a nice meeting with songs, manifestations, a teaching, ABS and then fellowship.
I can still recal standing in the kitchen when the twig coordinator asked me if there was anything he could do for me and my hand went up automatically to my neck as I said, "Yes, you can heal uhhhhhhhh, uhhhhhhhhhh, uhhhhhhhh, well, I was going to say you could take care of my neck but it's doing just fine!" I then was quite amazed to be able to turn it every which way and did so, wildly twisting it all around, thrilled to have full range of motion, no more pain.
I learned to not, at least try not, to underestimate the power of God's Word and speaking in tongues.
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Suda
Page 3 - What’s Happening in this thread?
(Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45)
Hot buttons, Passions, Raw Nerves, and Pet Peeves
Page 5 starts off with a bang with Deciderator’s post #82. It is awesome. It also hits some raw nerves and hot buttons. You can tell by reading it that his passion is “THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!”, and his passion is of itself a hot button, for some, Rascal included, as delineated in my previous post. The point I believe she may have missed in his post was
“(Bold added by me.) Actually, they agree on this point. However, their passions differ significantly. His passion is stick to the Word, focus on it and nothing else. Study it, teach it, and apply it correctly. It works for him (but not for others, thus, making it a hot button for some.)A pet peeve of his seems to be (several separate comments I have “strung together” and highlighted for purposes of clarity).
His pet peeve is another’s hot button. Focus on the good, dismiss the bad. Speak the truth and make the darkness dispel rather than dwelling on the darkness. Very good advice for those like him that “I was spared some of what others went through”, but not too sound for those who were not spared and need to work their way through the darkness so they can dwell in the light. What he interprets as “ego” may actually be “id” or “superego”. When someone’s psyche has been damaged, exploring the causes probably will require revisiting and reexamining the darkness. For most here at GSC this must include close examination of the organization, the leadership, the teachings, the whole shebang. To repair the damage to the psyche, they must understand the “what, when, where, how and who” of it to be able to overcome it. Wading through the cesspool is not pretty, but for many it is necessary. Also, “feeding their ego” could be received as “egotistical”, and that can put readers on the defensive. If taken as “fighting” words, civility is diminished.
Another hot button, some of his wording may come across as “Way Speak”. Some here interpret that as being “Way brained” or “still being brainwashed by the cult” or “incapable of independent thought”. Deciderator comes across to me as being an independent thinker. He does adopt ideas from others, but only after thorough and careful consideration. I think his screen name speaks volumes on this note. I have found here at GSC that many avoid anything resembling “Way Speak” with as great an intensity as we adopted it when in twi. We celebrate the freedom of shouting “Christmas” in the same degree to which we avoid saying “bless” or “share” or “The Word” or “hold forth”, etc. Personally, I think lots of the “Way Speak” is great and a perfect expression of some of my thoughts and feelings, and I do not feel it necessary to avoid “being me” by using other words that do not convey my meaning as well, but would not offend others. I’ve got to be honest and “keep it simple, stupid” and can’t hide behind words that are not “me”. That to me smacks of lying, people pleasing, and conforming to fit in, in order to be accepted. And I’m not comfortable with any of those things.
He also hits the plagiarism hot button. To some people, take Raf for example, who is a professional journalist, plagiarism is a big no-no, no excuses, never, no way, no how. I respect that about him and others who hold a similar view. As I’ve stated before, I was always under the impression that vpw did learn from other sources and incorporate their ideas into his teachings because he made no secret of it. I still have not looked deeply into the whole sections that were lifted word-for-word and published as his own. I have no reason to doubt it’s true, and agree that it was wrong, no if, ands, or buts about it. Eventually I’ll get to it - just not a priority to me at this time. At the same time, I agree with Deciderator on
Some can accept that, some can’t, and that’s why it’s a hot button.And he hits another biggie - Chris Geer is a major raw nerve and hot button around here, and for good reason. The following statement wasn’t the way to “win friends, and influence people” in the opinion of many here at GSC, but he still has the right to state it without being ashamed.
And this comment really hit home with me. It reminded me of my early days here. I walk into the café, scope out the place, and am soon surrounded by the welcoming committee that is eager to show me their favorite exhibits on display here. It was overwhelming. I was like “Jump back, Jack! Give me a chance to meander around the place at my own pace, and pick the exhibits I want to see in the order I want to see them. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but give me some space. I have no desire to as much as glance at some of your exhibits now, but I've made a mental note of your suggestions for future reference. Give me some time. Let me get comfortable. Let me establish a rapport with you folks, get to know you better. Then I may decide to check out your favorite exhibits. If I can’t find them, I’ll ask for directions. People here are welcoming and friendly so I’m sure someone will point me in the right direction when I am ready.” Thankfully, they did.When a newbie comes in and makes a confident, bold post that hits hot buttons, raw nerves, pet peeves, watch out - a food fight is on the way. How could it not be? Notice I did not say the newbie tried to incite a riot, nor threw the first punch, nor anything along those lines. But because he “stepped on some toes” and stirred passions, people will react, some more aggressively and passionately than others. But that’s what GSC is all about. And it can be overwhelming to the newbies, for better or worse.
That's all for tonight, folks. Good night and sweet dreams!
Suda
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WordWolf
That's true on every messageboard, and it's especially true here.
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Deciderator
Nicely done, Suda. You pretty much captured what I said and my motivation.
Pointing out hot buttons, pet peeves and raw nerves is a very good way of sorting through all this.
It would be nice to see a list of all the things people said they still kept from PFAL.
Party on!
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WordWolf
We've had threads on that long ago, but feel free to start a new one on the subject- we're probably overdue.
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Deciderator
No need.
We're in one now.
Check the thread title - no, here, I'll cut and paste it for you:
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WordWolf
Technically, that is correct.
However, the discussion has travelled far afield of a simple list like you mentioned.
If you don't mind such a listing being hard to find and hard to sift, by all means, consider this the thread to use.
Personally, I would want that discussion to have its own thread.
It's not like there's a fee for starting new threads.
But that's me.
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WhiteDove
Suda you are doing such a great job of reviewing the thread I wonder if you might do the Threadkiller thread when you are done here it's only 63 pages but since it is locked now at least you wont have any pages added.
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oldiesman
I think Jesus would want us to hold fast to the good. TWI is no longer VPW's church and this verse is obviously talking about present day associations. VP founded twi, but he's been dead for 22 years.
Under that same logic, a participant of the Roman Catholic church must disassociate himself because of bad popes. CLICK ME FOR INFORMATION ABOUT BAD POPES
TWI and the offshoots are carrying on with a large part of PFAL and other teachings of VP. I don't see a problem with that... I see those groups as part of the body of Christ, and this is still the U.S. of America with freedom of religion as one of our beloved tenets.
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