I learned of a man named BG Leonard, I think I will investgate that.
Deciderator:
I do not need to make excuses to you, you have been here less than a month, you wouldn't know the history or the patterns here
Each thread takes a life of its own when speaking of VP, Craig, PFAl, or TWI.
Give yourself a lttle time and you will see how it works HERE, in this established community
Welcome to the spot
Dot, this isn't my first board.
So far it appears to me that there are some who have a knee-jerk reaction whenever they see something TWI-related.
They don't see that it is possible to have learned something from someone who was accused of bad things.
It is possible to condemn some, but not all things related to VP Wierwille.
The fact he is accused of some dastardly things does not invalidate getting the 'to whom' correct when working the Scriptures, for example.
Clearly neither of us owes the other excuses.
My personal taste is for threads to remain on topic and new threads begun when a significant digression occurs. Of course I understand this does not always take place, but it doesn't mena I should not state my preference, either.
Thank you for the welcome "HERE in this established community."
Well...ok...I will try to put this in perspective....When someone says... praise GOD for vic wierwille...or praise GOD for pfal....and you are one of the ones that he destroyed...or you watched a sister or brother lose their life because of what he did personally or eronious doctrine that he taught.....It seems like God is being assigned blame for what happened to you...there are huge trust issues....where was God for me? why did THIS person deserve to be delivered...and others of us have our lives unalterably damaged????
We ALL arrived with the same eagerness to believe...the desire to serve him...The purity of heart to come to know HIM better.....and IF God was responsible for vpw...he must then be ALSO responsible for what happened to us too. You are thanking GOD for the man who raped your sister....You are thanking GOD for the doctrine that when being followed cost your dear friend her husband and her children their father.....
Ok...but IF you read the scriptures...if you read about a wolf....how in the scenario...he dons the skin of a sheep....why??? so that he LOOKS and SMELLS like a sheep...he ACTS like a sheep ...he HAS to be well disguised...no growling or licking of chops as he aproaches the flock.... he has to pass AS a sheep in order to get close enough to slaughter the lambs...he talks sheep....bleats and probably grazes to fool em...when the sheep relax around him...lower their guard he then is free to slaughter and devour...maybe only showing himself to a select few so that the others around him dont` get alarmed and leave...his success relies directly upon his secrecy.
WHY?? because as a wolf...IF he were to appear as himself....he would be spotted from far off and the flock would have run to the safety of the shepherd....
When you look at the evidence o vp`s life....when you read in the scripures...what the attributes of a man of the flesh are...and you have first hand witnesses to these behaviors in vpw....yeah you might have seen an attribute or two possibly of the spirit...but I think those few things might have easily been faked as part of his sheeps skin disguise....far and above the fruit in his life is adultery, drunkeness...etc...
Now it makes sense...a false prophet that has come to steal...to kill and to destroy....THEN the drugging and rapes make sense...THEN the destroyed lives...the actual deaths make sense...and those of us who were deeply hurt in twi don`t have to wonder why God would use this man to bless some and allow you to be raped at his hands.
I can only say that in coming to grips with wierwilles true fleshly nature....for some of us....it makes it safe to trust God again...to know that God wouldn`t put someone in our path that would cause death to us. It makes it safe to trust him again....
If wierwille had presented himself as he truly was.....and said hey boys n girls I have this GREAT class...some of you are gonna like it...some of you are gonna have to serve me sexually...some of you will lose your children...some of you will have your marriages destroyed ..some of you will be required to abort your unborn children...and some of you who follow my doctrine are actually going to have to die.....
Instead....he presents himself as a minister who is going to teach us ALL the answers to life and Godliness....the path to a more than abundant life....etc...
To me the analogy of a wolf becomes very very appropriate.
I just can`t fathom God putting us in harms way...it would make him untrustworthy.
I don`t know if that helps explain why it is hard for those who were marked for destruction to hear God being praised for this man and his doctrine.
Well...ok...I will try to put this in perspective....When someone says... praise GOD for vic wierwille...or praise GOD for pfal....and you are one of the ones that he destroyed...or you watched a sister or brother lose their life because of what he did personally or eronious doctrine that he taught.....It seems like God is being assigned blame for what happened to you...there are huge trust issues....where was God for me? why did THIS person deserve to be delivered...and others of us have our lives unalterably damaged????
There's the problem.
Presuming God was VP or VP was God.
The Catholics have the same dillio going with the Pope and the Mormons with their prophet.
We know from God's Word that He is always there for us when someone is being hurt, when someone is lying, when an accurate knowledge of His Word is genuinely sought.
God is no respector of persons (after years of churches, I never heard that till I got to twig).
It's one thing to make a mistake in putting too much trust in someone, we've all done it.
It's another to fail to come up out of that misery but to dwell in it so.
And another thing to not just dwell in it, but to refuse to acknowledge what you know to be true - there were things about the Bible you learned from VP Wierwille that were true.
To make it a cut and dried black or white thing - he's either Satan or God is wrong.
VP Wierwille was a man who did good and bad in his life.
When speaking of him and discussing his entire life, all aspects should be discussed. When we are discussing PFAL, then let's talk about PFAL. Same with Living Victoriously or Jesus Christ Is Not God for example.
It's like in a political discussion about economics in the 1990s and the discussion is centering around unemployment dropping and the budget getting balanced and then out of the blue some ricky chimes in that Clinton got a beejay.
You know why they are called FALSE prophets??? It`s because they LOOk like prophets...they SOUND like prophets....they probably can sling the scriptures with the best of them.....there is only one way the scriptures tell us that we can identify them....examining the fruit in their lives....
Yeah wierwille taught scriptures....so what?? Look what he did and quit excusing the significance of the fruit evidenced in order to continue to lend him credibility.
Why is it.. the most staunch supporters of the vicster I've met, when I challenge them with, "WHAT results? Just name me one.." and I'm met with silence.. or,
In PFAL, I learned that I had Christ in me, the hope of glory. In relation to that, I also learned that had the princes of this world known of the full "package" made available to the individuals who believed in the resurrected lord and savior Jesus Christ, they would not have crucified the lord of glory. And VP said in the class something to the effect that Jesus could only be at one place at one time, but now wherever there is a believer, there is Christ. If there are a thousand believers believing in who they are, they can "chop ol Satans' ears off a thousand times!" And in that context he shared John 14:12:
"For the works that I do, ye shall do also, and greater works than these shall ye do for I go unto my father."
And I was like Yeah! Man that was and IS cool to the max! And shortly after learning these things, my Daddy had a heart attack, and was in the hospital at death's door. And being the foolish nineteen year old that I was to believe such "clap trap", I drove to the hospital after I'd learned it, went into the waiting room to be with my Mom and brothers and sister to see what was going on. At some point the doctor came and told us that my Dad was in dire straits and probably wouldn't make it. At that point I just prayed to God within myself and said; "Well God, Jesus said that the works that he did, I could do also. Here goes and thanks for being with me". I walked into the ICU to his bedside, was told by the doctors to leave, looked into my dear sweet Dad's frightened eyes as he was gasping for air, and I held his ankles (there were doctors on either side of the bed) and in the name of Jesus Christ ministered healing to him by claiming the promise of God that He wills that we be prosperous and be in health. Immediately his breathing eased and the fear in his eyes subsided. And I told him that he was going to be alright. And then I went back into the waiting room. I told my family that he was going to be okay because God had healed him. Sometime later, we heard a literal "whooping" coming from the intensive care unit. I went through the door followed by my family, and there was a different doctor excitedly explaining to the one that I had seen earlier saying that the initial EKG (or whatever they used to determine the damage) that showed a seventy percent destruction of his heart, "must have been a mistake! Because the second one that we took now shows that everything is fine!" Just then, as if on cue, like in a movie or something, the nurse says; "Doctor, his pulse! Look!" And we turned and there at my Dad's bedside was some sort of digital pulse monitor that was dropping dramatically from a near fibrillation state to a nice and normal pulse. And my Dad had tears streaming down his smiling face. And then the whooping Doctor said really loud; "We're in Fat City baby!" And I'll never forget that as long as I live, for we had all witnessed a miracle. And then when the doctors began to talk of how this could have happened, I simply told them that they had witnessed a miracle of healing and that it was done in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. "Two of you were there when I prayed" I told them, "and you know full well what has happened here, and God Almighty gets the glory!" And then I went over and on some kind of a nurses marker board next to my Dad's bed, I wrote this verse from Jeremiah;
"Behold, I am the lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for me?"
And the answer to that rhetorical question is an obvious and resounding "NO". And I told my Dad that he'd just been healed and that he'd be fine. And then, I asked him if he believed Romans 10;9, and with tears he replied; "Well I sure as hell do now! And thank you so much son, I am so proud of you", as he gripped my hand.
And, I gained that confidence and strength to do that from the PFAL class, and for that I will be forever thankful. That old "sogwap" attitude you know. Was it an "instantaneous miracle? Or just a "reglar" healing. I don't know nor care. My Dad lived to a ripe old age and now awaits the return of our lord. That incident occurred at the Bethesda Naval Medical Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. It's on record there somewhere no doubt.
Once again, I do not deny VPWs sins and the hurt that they caused. But I am also thankful that he taught that class and that I took it.
`cid...that isn`t what I said at all...I didn`t say vpw was God.
I DID say that it was difficult to see God given credit for a man who created such wholesale destruction in peoples lives.....shrug..
Scripturally all evidence points to the above scenario I described...and Dot gave you scriptural reference to what we were to do with those such as he.
Why were we not to be around people like him?? why not eat with him??? Because they are farking DANGEROUS!! We are never told to excuse the bad and accept the good in a minister of God`s people....we are told to stay away from em if they do what vp did.....we are told that the guys that did what he did have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
What you are asking us to do cid .....is in complete oposition from what scriptures tell us.
`cid...that isn`t what I said at all...I didn`t say vpw was God.
I DID say that it was difficult to see God given credit for a man who created such wholesale destruction in peoples lives.....shrug..
Well the way it was put it sure looked all jumbled up together to me and getting things all out of whack as to God being responsible for what VP did and all.
What you are asking us to do cid .....is in complete oposition from what scriptures tell us.
Really?
Tell me whose trespasses we should forgive.
And be honest, did you learn nothing from PFAL?
Me, I'd never even heard of the mystery till I got to a twig, much less my righteousness, justifiucation, redemption, etc.
No one had ever pointed out that eternal life was indeed eternal, or that I had the proof when I SIT, or that I have all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies.
Did you know all that stuff before you ever heard of TWI?
Why is it.. the most staunch supporters of the vicster I've met, when I challenge them with, "WHAT results? Just name me one.." and I'm met with silence.. or,
In PFAL, I learned that I had Christ in me, the hope of glory. In relation to that, I also learned that had the princes of this world known of the full "package" made available to the individuals who believed in the resurrected lord and savior Jesus Christ, they would not have crucified the lord of glory. And VP said in the class something to the effect that Jesus could only be at one place at one time, but now wherever there is a believer, there is Christ. If there are a thousand believers believing in who they are, they can "chop ol Satans' ears off a thousand times!" And in that context he shared John 14:12:
"For the works that I do, ye shall do also, and greater works than these shall ye do for I go unto my father."
And I was like Yeah! Man that was and IS cool to the max! And shortly after learning these things, my Daddy had a heart attack, and was in the hospital at death's door. And being the foolish nineteen year old that I was to believe such "clap trap", I drove to the hospital after I'd learned it, went into the waiting room to be with my Mom and brothers and sister to see what was going on. At some point the doctor came and told us that my Dad was in dire straits and probably wouldn't make it. At that point I just prayed to God within myself and said; "Well God, Jesus said that the works that he did, I could do also. Here goes and thanks for being with me". I walked into the ICU to his bedside, was told by the doctors to leave, looked into my dear sweet Dad's frightened eyes as he was gasping for air, and I held his ankles (there were doctors on either side of the bed) and in the name of Jesus Christ ministered healing to him by claiming the promise of God that He wills that we be prosperous and be in health. Immediately his breathing eased and the fear in his eyes subsided. And I told him that he was going to be alright. And then I went back into the waiting room. I told my family that he was going to be okay because God had healed him. Sometime later, we heard a literal "whooping" coming from the intensive care unit. I went through the door followed by my family, and there was a different doctor excitedly explaining to the one that I had seen earlier saying that the initial EKG (or whatever they used to determine the damage) that showed a seventy percent destruction of his heart, "must have been a mistake! Because the second one that we took now shows that everything is fine!" Just then, as if on cue, like in a movie or something, the nurse says; "Doctor, his pulse! Look!" And we turned and there at my Dad's bedside was some sort of digital pulse monitor that was dropping dramatically from a near fibrillation state to a nice and normal pulse. And my Dad had tears streaming down his smiling face. And then the whooping Doctor said really loud; "We're in Fat City baby!" And I'll never forget that as long as I live, for we had all witnessed a miracle. And then when the doctors began to talk of how this could have happened, I simply told them that they had witnessed a miracle of healing and that it was done in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. "Two of you were there when I prayed" I told them, "and you know full well what has happened here, and God Almighty gets the glory!" And then I went over and on some kind of a nurses marker board next to my Dad's bed, I wrote this verse from Jeremiah;
"Behold, I am the lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for me?"
And the answer to that rhetorical question is an obvious and resounding "NO". And I told my Dad that he'd just been healed and that he'd be fine. And then, I asked him if he believed Romans 10;9, and with tears he replied; "Well I sure as hell do now! And thank you so much son, I am so proud of you", as he gripped my hand.
And, I gained that confidence and strength to do that from the PFAL class, and for that I will be forever thankful. That old "sogwap" attitude you know. Was it an "instantaneous miracle? Or just a "reglar" healing. I don't know nor care. My Dad lived to a ripe old age and now awaits the return of our lord. That incident occurred at the Bethesda Naval Medical Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. It's on record there somewhere no doubt.
Once again, I do not deny VPWs sins and the hurt that they caused. But I am also thankful that he taught that class and that I took it.
I guess that y`all just don`t want to know....it almost seems like rather than reading and trying to understand one another...you want to engage in a ....ing match...defend your position at all costs....nastiness?? insults?? false accusations??? ALL fair game if you don`t like the others position.
I am trying to explain from the heart why this stuff is so tough to deal with.....lets talk about this...try not to see one another as on a soap box proclaiming heretical slurs .... someone to be taken down....I thought we were all on the same side??
`Cid...forgivness...doesn`t negate our clear biblical instructions concerning a man who does what vp did.
Did I learn anything from pfal??? Well cid to be honest..the things I learned in pfal, though they seemed innocuos and harmless on the surface...invariably were the basis for a springboard into the false teachings that so harmed us.
The scriptures that I was taught invariably became the foundation for the bars of my prison...the ammunition for the weapon held to my head to enforce somebody elses will.
It might have been ok if the will being enforced was Godly...but what i was required to do was not.
In hindsight, to me...pfal seems like the gateway (thinking like gateway drugs) to the harmfull things that eventually hurt us deeply and pulled us away from God.
Jonny - Here's the reason why so many families that demand the death penalty for someone who has murdered a loved one end up feeling so empty. VPW is dead - but there still is no real closure. Mothers who have watched their childrens' murderers die in the death chamber end up feeling empty because the murderer's death doesn't bring their child back. The loss, the grief, the pain and emptiness live on.
You yourself have presented a situation where it took you a long time to forgive a man that had stolen from your family. I'll ask you to multiply those feelings by 10,000,000. Now maybe you'll get close to what a victim of sexual abuse feels. Got it?
Top of the World posted her gut wrenching experience from lead. - NOT ONE PERSON with a heart would tell her to "get over it and move on."
VPW is dead - but his "ministry" lives on; his teachings live on; and his victims live on - along with the pain and shame that they must carry.
On a much milder note:
I lost my mother to cancer when I was 8 years old. I don't cry about it very much anymore but I do still cry. I cried when I got married because I wanted to share the things that mothers and daughters share. I cried when my children were born because I couldn't show her her lovely grandbabies. Sometimes I just cry when I'd like to talk to her and get her advice.
It's not an everyday thing. It's not even a yearly thing. But the pain still lives on, although it's smaller and hidden in a part of my heart that I believe makes me a better person - but there it resides all the same.
You want to tell me to get over it?
BTW - maybe you love reading - but what about that poor boy she humiliated in public? I wonder if he loves reading... Think about it ...
Jonny - you have yet to address my post - so I'm giving you another look at it.
Here's the deal:
WE HAVE NO IDEA what would have happened had VPW not stolen BG Leonard's work and turned it into a "Church in the Box." How much healing would still have been realized and how much hurt would have been avoided had VP not done his stealing? We can never say.
You want to say that there are parts of BG's class that were deliberatley left out? Okay. So who's to say that they were really wrong? OR - who's to say that these things would have been corrected in time anyway.
I'm thankful that I learned how to have a relationship with God and Jesus Christ. HOW that happened isn't relevant. I owe my allegiance to GOD and HIS SON.
that eventually hurt us deeply and pulled us away from God.
Rascal, you can exclude me from your "us".
Dooj said; I
'm thankful that I learned how to have a relationship with God and Jesus Christ. HOW that happened isn't relevant. I owe my allegiance to GOD and HIS SON.
I am thankful for that too! And, I learned it in PFAL, as far as the knowledge is concerned. And since this thread started out to be about PFAL and things from it I still believe, I happen to believe that it IS in fact relevant to this thread. I have no allegience to anyone but God and His Son Jesus Christ. I have simply been stating a fact, that I am thankful for what I learned in the PFAL class. And I wasn't part of the BG Leonard discussion here.
Did I learn anything from pfal??? Well cid to be honest..the things I learned in pfal, though they seemed innocuos and harmless on the surface...invariably were the basis for a springboard into the false teachings that so harmed us.
The scriptures that I was taught invariably became the foundation for the bars of my prison...the ammunition for the weapon held to my head to enforce somebody elses will.
So the mystery, justification, sonship, all spiritual blessings put you in prison?
Or was it your approach to those who taught you this stuff?
Do you think if you had been on the periphery the way I was it may have been different?
Why is it.. the most staunch supporters of the vicster I've met, when I challenge them with, "WHAT results? Just name me one.." and I'm met with silence.. or,
In PFAL, I learned that I had Christ in me, the hope of glory. In relation to that, I also learned that had the princes of this world known of the full "package" made available to the individuals who believed in the resurrected lord and savior Jesus Christ, they would not have crucified the lord of glory. And VP said in the class something to the effect that Jesus could only be at one place at one time, but now wherever there is a believer, there is Christ. If there are a thousand believers believing in who they are, they can "chop ol Satans' ears off a thousand times!" And in that context he shared John 14:12:
"For the works that I do, ye shall do also, and greater works than these shall ye do for I go unto my father."
And I was like Yeah! Man that was and IS cool to the max! And shortly after learning these things, my Daddy had a heart attack, and was in the hospital at death's door. And being the foolish nineteen year old that I was to believe such "clap trap", I drove to the hospital after I'd learned it, went into the waiting room to be with my Mom and brothers and sister to see what was going on. At some point the doctor came and told us that my Dad was in dire straits and probably wouldn't make it. At that point I just prayed to God within myself and said; "Well God, Jesus said that the works that he did, I could do also. Here goes and thanks for being with me". I walked into the ICU to his bedside, was told by the doctors to leave, looked into my dear sweet Dad's frightened eyes as he was gasping for air, and I held his ankles (there were doctors on either side of the bed) and in the name of Jesus Christ ministered healing to him by claiming the promise of God that He wills that we be prosperous and be in health. Immediately his breathing eased and the fear in his eyes subsided. And I told him that he was going to be alright. And then I went back into the waiting room. I told my family that he was going to be okay because God had healed him. Sometime later, we heard a literal "whooping" coming from the intensive care unit. I went through the door followed by my family, and there was a different doctor excitedly explaining to the one that I had seen earlier saying that the initial EKG (or whatever they used to determine the damage) that showed a seventy percent destruction of his heart, "must have been a mistake! Because the second one that we took now shows that everything is fine!" Just then, as if on cue, like in a movie or something, the nurse says; "Doctor, his pulse! Look!" And we turned and there at my Dad's bedside was some sort of digital pulse monitor that was dropping dramatically from a near fibrillation state to a nice and normal pulse. And my Dad had tears streaming down his smiling face. And then the whooping Doctor said really loud; "We're in Fat City baby!" And I'll never forget that as long as I live, for we had all witnessed a miracle. And then when the doctors began to talk of how this could have happened, I simply told them that they had witnessed a miracle of healing and that it was done in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. "Two of you were there when I prayed" I told them, "and you know full well what has happened here, and God Almighty gets the glory!" And then I went over and on some kind of a nurses marker board next to my Dad's bed, I wrote this verse from Jeremiah;
"Behold, I am the lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for me?"
And the answer to that rhetorical question is an obvious and resounding "NO". And I told my Dad that he'd just been healed and that he'd be fine. And then, I asked him if he believed Romans 10;9, and with tears he replied; "Well I sure as hell do now! And thank you so much son, I am so proud of you", as he gripped my hand.
And, I gained that confidence and strength to do that from the PFAL class, and for that I will be forever thankful. That old "sogwap" attitude you know. Was it an "instantaneous miracle? Or just a "reglar" healing. I don't know nor care. My Dad lived to a ripe old age and now awaits the return of our lord. That incident occurred at the Bethesda Naval Medical Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. It's on record there somewhere no doubt.
Once again, I do not deny VPWs sins and the hurt that they caused. But I am also thankful that he taught that class and that I took it.
We forgive them all - (IMHO) but forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. In fact forgiveness requires remembering.
We Love them all. But again - we are still to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Just because I love - doesn't mean that I'm not honest. In fact, Jesus himself said that it's easy to love those that we like - it's the unloveable that we need to extend ourselves to.
Here: its in my signature now, but I'm making it bigger for all to see:
I shall allow no man to belittle my soul by making me hate him.-- Booker T. Washington
The way things went down, I just kept on a-truckin.'
I had a great twig coordinator, what can I say?
Rascal, I wish you had been in my twig.
And later when I went to Paris, I wish you could have hung out with believers I know there who also did much to help me stay focused on the Word and not politics or accusations or all the other trauma. A couple of times I tried to talk about it and they just hijacked the discussion to the Word, and usually something unrelated to what was going on.
And, I think that you are so right about forgiveness. Lots of people (in my opinion) seem to think that to forgive means that you will trust that person again like you did before the offense took place. Not so, in my book. I can forgive, but I may never trust that person again. I think that forgiveness many times is for the forgive-ER and not the forgive-EE.
Well God forgives when we repent and ask...I guess that I will forgive then as well...We are to love one another for sure....
That in no way negates our instructions given concerning those of the flesh or those ministers that do what vp did....
The teachings that you mentioned I think distract from the ones that led into the more dangerous stuff.
Teaching that all the women in the kingdom belonged to David was used as the foundation for the later teaching vpw used to justify his adultery and taking of young women...
Teaching about recieving equals believing led to the teachings that to seek medical treatment was not believing....to not do what was asked even when dangerous....was not believing....
Teaching that confession of reciept equals reciept of confession ...led to people not being allowed to speak of medical conditions and needs because it meant they were confessing negatives....I know that people died directly because of this....they kept quiet about symptoms of illness. (no negatives) ..not seeking medical help (believing God) and died suddenly.
The teachings in pfal led to other doctrines....obedience to leadership right or wrong...that God would cover no matter what because of our hearts....people followed these teachings with pure heart and in innocence died.
Well God forgives when we repent and ask...I guess that I will forgive then as well...We are to love one another for sure....
That in no way negates our instructions given concerning those of the flesh or those ministers that do what vp did....
The teachings that you mentioned I think distract from the ones that led into the more dangerous stuff.
Teaching that all the women in the kingdom belonged to David was used as the foundation for the later teaching vpw used to justify his adultery and taking of young women...
Teaching about recieving equals believing led to the teachings that to seek medical treatment was not believing....
Teaching that confession of reciept equals reciept of confession ...led to people not being allowed to speak of medical conditions and needs because it meant they were confessing negatives....I know that people died directly because of this.
The teachings led to other doctrines....obedience to leadership right or wrong...that God would cover no matter what because of our hearts....people followed these teachings with pure heart and in innocence died.
In PFAL, I learned that I had Christ in me, the hope of glory. In relation to that, I also learned that had the princes of this world known of the full "package" made available to the individuals who believed in the resurrected lord and savior Jesus Christ, they would not have crucified the lord of glory. And VP said in the class something to the effect that Jesus could only be at one place at one time, but now wherever there is a believer, there is Christ. If there are a thousand believers believing in who they are, they can "chop ol Satans' ears off a thousand times!" And in that context he shared John 14:12:
"For the works that I do, ye shall do also, and greater works than these shall ye do for I go unto my father."
And I was like Yeah! Man that was and IS cool to the max! And shortly after learning these things, my Daddy had a heart attack, and was in the hospital at death's door. And being the foolish nineteen year old that I was to believe such "clap trap", I drove to the hospital after I'd learned it, went into the waiting room to be with my Mom and brothers and sister to see what was going on. At some point the doctor came and told us that my Dad was in dire straits and probably wouldn't make it. At that point I just prayed to God within myself and said; "Well God, Jesus said that the works that he did, I could do also. Here goes and thanks for being with me". I walked into the ICU to his bedside, was told by the doctors to leave, looked into my dear sweet Dad's frightened eyes as he was gasping for air, and I held his ankles (there were doctors on either side of the bed) and in the name of Jesus Christ ministered healing to him by claiming the promise of God that He wills that we be prosperous and be in health. Immediately his breathing eased and the fear in his eyes subsided. And I told him that he was going to be alright. And then I went back into the waiting room. I told my family that he was going to be okay because God had healed him. Sometime later, we heard a literal "whooping" coming from the intensive care unit. I went through the door followed by my family, and there was a different doctor excitedly explaining to the one that I had seen earlier saying that the initial EKG (or whatever they used to determine the damage) that showed a seventy percent destruction of his heart, "must have been a mistake! Because the second one that we took now shows that everything is fine!" Just then, as if on cue, like in a movie or something, the nurse says; "Doctor, his pulse! Look!" And we turned and there at my Dad's bedside was some sort of digital pulse monitor that was dropping dramatically from a near fibrillation state to a nice and normal pulse. And my Dad had tears streaming down his smiling face. And then the whooping Doctor said really loud; "We're in Fat City baby!" And I'll never forget that as long as I live, for we had all witnessed a miracle. And then when the doctors began to talk of how this could have happened, I simply told them that they had witnessed a miracle of healing and that it was done in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. "Two of you were there when I prayed" I told them, "and you know full well what has happened here, and God Almighty gets the glory!" And then I went over and on some kind of a nurses marker board next to my Dad's bed, I wrote this verse from Jeremiah;
"Behold, I am the lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for me?"
And the answer to that rhetorical question is an obvious and resounding "NO". And I told my Dad that he'd just been healed and that he'd be fine. And then, I asked him if he believed Romans 10;9, and with tears he replied; "Well I sure as hell do now! And thank you so much son, I am so proud of you", as he gripped my hand.
And, I gained that confidence and strength to do that from the PFAL class, and for that I will be forever thankful. That old "sogwap" attitude you know. Was it an "instantaneous miracle? Or just a "reglar" healing. I don't know nor care. My Dad lived to a ripe old age and now awaits the return of our lord. That incident occurred at the Bethesda Naval Medical Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. It's on record there somewhere no doubt.
Once again, I do not deny VPWs sins and the hurt that they caused. But I am also thankful that he taught that class and that I took it.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Dot Matrix
I learned of a man named BG Leonard, I think I will investgate that.
Deciderator:
I do not need to make excuses to you, you have been here less than a month, you wouldn't know the history or the patterns here
Each thread takes a life of its own when speaking of VP, Craig, PFAl, or TWI.
Give yourself a lttle time and you will see how it works HERE, in this established community
Welcome to the spot
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Deciderator
Dot, this isn't my first board.
So far it appears to me that there are some who have a knee-jerk reaction whenever they see something TWI-related.
They don't see that it is possible to have learned something from someone who was accused of bad things.
It is possible to condemn some, but not all things related to VP Wierwille.
The fact he is accused of some dastardly things does not invalidate getting the 'to whom' correct when working the Scriptures, for example.
Clearly neither of us owes the other excuses.
My personal taste is for threads to remain on topic and new threads begun when a significant digression occurs. Of course I understand this does not always take place, but it doesn't mena I should not state my preference, either.
Thank you for the welcome "HERE in this established community."
Larry is right.
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rascal
Well...ok...I will try to put this in perspective....When someone says... praise GOD for vic wierwille...or praise GOD for pfal....and you are one of the ones that he destroyed...or you watched a sister or brother lose their life because of what he did personally or eronious doctrine that he taught.....It seems like God is being assigned blame for what happened to you...there are huge trust issues....where was God for me? why did THIS person deserve to be delivered...and others of us have our lives unalterably damaged????
We ALL arrived with the same eagerness to believe...the desire to serve him...The purity of heart to come to know HIM better.....and IF God was responsible for vpw...he must then be ALSO responsible for what happened to us too. You are thanking GOD for the man who raped your sister....You are thanking GOD for the doctrine that when being followed cost your dear friend her husband and her children their father.....
Ok...but IF you read the scriptures...if you read about a wolf....how in the scenario...he dons the skin of a sheep....why??? so that he LOOKS and SMELLS like a sheep...he ACTS like a sheep ...he HAS to be well disguised...no growling or licking of chops as he aproaches the flock.... he has to pass AS a sheep in order to get close enough to slaughter the lambs...he talks sheep....bleats and probably grazes to fool em...when the sheep relax around him...lower their guard he then is free to slaughter and devour...maybe only showing himself to a select few so that the others around him dont` get alarmed and leave...his success relies directly upon his secrecy.
WHY?? because as a wolf...IF he were to appear as himself....he would be spotted from far off and the flock would have run to the safety of the shepherd....
When you look at the evidence o vp`s life....when you read in the scripures...what the attributes of a man of the flesh are...and you have first hand witnesses to these behaviors in vpw....yeah you might have seen an attribute or two possibly of the spirit...but I think those few things might have easily been faked as part of his sheeps skin disguise....far and above the fruit in his life is adultery, drunkeness...etc...
Now it makes sense...a false prophet that has come to steal...to kill and to destroy....THEN the drugging and rapes make sense...THEN the destroyed lives...the actual deaths make sense...and those of us who were deeply hurt in twi don`t have to wonder why God would use this man to bless some and allow you to be raped at his hands.
I can only say that in coming to grips with wierwilles true fleshly nature....for some of us....it makes it safe to trust God again...to know that God wouldn`t put someone in our path that would cause death to us. It makes it safe to trust him again....
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rascal
If wierwille had presented himself as he truly was.....and said hey boys n girls I have this GREAT class...some of you are gonna like it...some of you are gonna have to serve me sexually...some of you will lose your children...some of you will have your marriages destroyed ..some of you will be required to abort your unborn children...and some of you who follow my doctrine are actually going to have to die.....
Instead....he presents himself as a minister who is going to teach us ALL the answers to life and Godliness....the path to a more than abundant life....etc...
To me the analogy of a wolf becomes very very appropriate.
I just can`t fathom God putting us in harms way...it would make him untrustworthy.
I don`t know if that helps explain why it is hard for those who were marked for destruction to hear God being praised for this man and his doctrine.
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Deciderator
There's the problem.
Presuming God was VP or VP was God.
The Catholics have the same dillio going with the Pope and the Mormons with their prophet.
We know from God's Word that He is always there for us when someone is being hurt, when someone is lying, when an accurate knowledge of His Word is genuinely sought.
God is no respector of persons (after years of churches, I never heard that till I got to twig).
It's one thing to make a mistake in putting too much trust in someone, we've all done it.
It's another to fail to come up out of that misery but to dwell in it so.
And another thing to not just dwell in it, but to refuse to acknowledge what you know to be true - there were things about the Bible you learned from VP Wierwille that were true.
To make it a cut and dried black or white thing - he's either Satan or God is wrong.
VP Wierwille was a man who did good and bad in his life.
When speaking of him and discussing his entire life, all aspects should be discussed. When we are discussing PFAL, then let's talk about PFAL. Same with Living Victoriously or Jesus Christ Is Not God for example.
It's like in a political discussion about economics in the 1990s and the discussion is centering around unemployment dropping and the budget getting balanced and then out of the blue some ricky chimes in that Clinton got a beejay.
I mean, really.
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rascal
You know why they are called FALSE prophets??? It`s because they LOOk like prophets...they SOUND like prophets....they probably can sling the scriptures with the best of them.....there is only one way the scriptures tell us that we can identify them....examining the fruit in their lives....
Yeah wierwille taught scriptures....so what?? Look what he did and quit excusing the significance of the fruit evidenced in order to continue to lend him credibility.
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J0nny Ling0
In PFAL, I learned that I had Christ in me, the hope of glory. In relation to that, I also learned that had the princes of this world known of the full "package" made available to the individuals who believed in the resurrected lord and savior Jesus Christ, they would not have crucified the lord of glory. And VP said in the class something to the effect that Jesus could only be at one place at one time, but now wherever there is a believer, there is Christ. If there are a thousand believers believing in who they are, they can "chop ol Satans' ears off a thousand times!" And in that context he shared John 14:12:
"For the works that I do, ye shall do also, and greater works than these shall ye do for I go unto my father."
And I was like Yeah! Man that was and IS cool to the max! And shortly after learning these things, my Daddy had a heart attack, and was in the hospital at death's door. And being the foolish nineteen year old that I was to believe such "clap trap", I drove to the hospital after I'd learned it, went into the waiting room to be with my Mom and brothers and sister to see what was going on. At some point the doctor came and told us that my Dad was in dire straits and probably wouldn't make it. At that point I just prayed to God within myself and said; "Well God, Jesus said that the works that he did, I could do also. Here goes and thanks for being with me". I walked into the ICU to his bedside, was told by the doctors to leave, looked into my dear sweet Dad's frightened eyes as he was gasping for air, and I held his ankles (there were doctors on either side of the bed) and in the name of Jesus Christ ministered healing to him by claiming the promise of God that He wills that we be prosperous and be in health. Immediately his breathing eased and the fear in his eyes subsided. And I told him that he was going to be alright. And then I went back into the waiting room. I told my family that he was going to be okay because God had healed him. Sometime later, we heard a literal "whooping" coming from the intensive care unit. I went through the door followed by my family, and there was a different doctor excitedly explaining to the one that I had seen earlier saying that the initial EKG (or whatever they used to determine the damage) that showed a seventy percent destruction of his heart, "must have been a mistake! Because the second one that we took now shows that everything is fine!" Just then, as if on cue, like in a movie or something, the nurse says; "Doctor, his pulse! Look!" And we turned and there at my Dad's bedside was some sort of digital pulse monitor that was dropping dramatically from a near fibrillation state to a nice and normal pulse. And my Dad had tears streaming down his smiling face. And then the whooping Doctor said really loud; "We're in Fat City baby!" And I'll never forget that as long as I live, for we had all witnessed a miracle. And then when the doctors began to talk of how this could have happened, I simply told them that they had witnessed a miracle of healing and that it was done in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. "Two of you were there when I prayed" I told them, "and you know full well what has happened here, and God Almighty gets the glory!" And then I went over and on some kind of a nurses marker board next to my Dad's bed, I wrote this verse from Jeremiah;
"Behold, I am the lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for me?"
And the answer to that rhetorical question is an obvious and resounding "NO". And I told my Dad that he'd just been healed and that he'd be fine. And then, I asked him if he believed Romans 10;9, and with tears he replied; "Well I sure as hell do now! And thank you so much son, I am so proud of you", as he gripped my hand.
And, I gained that confidence and strength to do that from the PFAL class, and for that I will be forever thankful. That old "sogwap" attitude you know. Was it an "instantaneous miracle? Or just a "reglar" healing. I don't know nor care. My Dad lived to a ripe old age and now awaits the return of our lord. That incident occurred at the Bethesda Naval Medical Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. It's on record there somewhere no doubt.
Once again, I do not deny VPWs sins and the hurt that they caused. But I am also thankful that he taught that class and that I took it.
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rascal
`cid...that isn`t what I said at all...I didn`t say vpw was God.
I DID say that it was difficult to see God given credit for a man who created such wholesale destruction in peoples lives.....shrug..
Scripturally all evidence points to the above scenario I described...and Dot gave you scriptural reference to what we were to do with those such as he.
Why were we not to be around people like him?? why not eat with him??? Because they are farking DANGEROUS!! We are never told to excuse the bad and accept the good in a minister of God`s people....we are told to stay away from em if they do what vp did.....we are told that the guys that did what he did have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
What you are asking us to do cid .....is in complete oposition from what scriptures tell us.
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Deciderator
Well the way it was put it sure looked all jumbled up together to me and getting things all out of whack as to God being responsible for what VP did and all.
Really?
Tell me whose trespasses we should forgive.
And be honest, did you learn nothing from PFAL?
Me, I'd never even heard of the mystery till I got to a twig, much less my righteousness, justifiucation, redemption, etc.
No one had ever pointed out that eternal life was indeed eternal, or that I had the proof when I SIT, or that I have all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies.
Did you know all that stuff before you ever heard of TWI?
If you say you did, I'll take your word for it.
__________________________________________________________________
Jonny - YIKES WHAT A STORY!
You know, you really need to work on your ingratitude. It's just not up to snuff by some people's standards.
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J0nny Ling0
In PFAL, I learned that I had Christ in me, the hope of glory. In relation to that, I also learned that had the princes of this world known of the full "package" made available to the individuals who believed in the resurrected lord and savior Jesus Christ, they would not have crucified the lord of glory. And VP said in the class something to the effect that Jesus could only be at one place at one time, but now wherever there is a believer, there is Christ. If there are a thousand believers believing in who they are, they can "chop ol Satans' ears off a thousand times!" And in that context he shared John 14:12:
"For the works that I do, ye shall do also, and greater works than these shall ye do for I go unto my father."
And I was like Yeah! Man that was and IS cool to the max! And shortly after learning these things, my Daddy had a heart attack, and was in the hospital at death's door. And being the foolish nineteen year old that I was to believe such "clap trap", I drove to the hospital after I'd learned it, went into the waiting room to be with my Mom and brothers and sister to see what was going on. At some point the doctor came and told us that my Dad was in dire straits and probably wouldn't make it. At that point I just prayed to God within myself and said; "Well God, Jesus said that the works that he did, I could do also. Here goes and thanks for being with me". I walked into the ICU to his bedside, was told by the doctors to leave, looked into my dear sweet Dad's frightened eyes as he was gasping for air, and I held his ankles (there were doctors on either side of the bed) and in the name of Jesus Christ ministered healing to him by claiming the promise of God that He wills that we be prosperous and be in health. Immediately his breathing eased and the fear in his eyes subsided. And I told him that he was going to be alright. And then I went back into the waiting room. I told my family that he was going to be okay because God had healed him. Sometime later, we heard a literal "whooping" coming from the intensive care unit. I went through the door followed by my family, and there was a different doctor excitedly explaining to the one that I had seen earlier saying that the initial EKG (or whatever they used to determine the damage) that showed a seventy percent destruction of his heart, "must have been a mistake! Because the second one that we took now shows that everything is fine!" Just then, as if on cue, like in a movie or something, the nurse says; "Doctor, his pulse! Look!" And we turned and there at my Dad's bedside was some sort of digital pulse monitor that was dropping dramatically from a near fibrillation state to a nice and normal pulse. And my Dad had tears streaming down his smiling face. And then the whooping Doctor said really loud; "We're in Fat City baby!" And I'll never forget that as long as I live, for we had all witnessed a miracle. And then when the doctors began to talk of how this could have happened, I simply told them that they had witnessed a miracle of healing and that it was done in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. "Two of you were there when I prayed" I told them, "and you know full well what has happened here, and God Almighty gets the glory!" And then I went over and on some kind of a nurses marker board next to my Dad's bed, I wrote this verse from Jeremiah;
"Behold, I am the lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for me?"
And the answer to that rhetorical question is an obvious and resounding "NO". And I told my Dad that he'd just been healed and that he'd be fine. And then, I asked him if he believed Romans 10;9, and with tears he replied; "Well I sure as hell do now! And thank you so much son, I am so proud of you", as he gripped my hand.
And, I gained that confidence and strength to do that from the PFAL class, and for that I will be forever thankful. That old "sogwap" attitude you know. Was it an "instantaneous miracle? Or just a "reglar" healing. I don't know nor care. My Dad lived to a ripe old age and now awaits the return of our lord. That incident occurred at the Bethesda Naval Medical Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. It's on record there somewhere no doubt.
Once again, I do not deny VPWs sins and the hurt that they caused. But I am also thankful that he taught that class and that I took it.
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rascal
I guess that y`all just don`t want to know....it almost seems like rather than reading and trying to understand one another...you want to engage in a ....ing match...defend your position at all costs....nastiness?? insults?? false accusations??? ALL fair game if you don`t like the others position.
I am trying to explain from the heart why this stuff is so tough to deal with.....lets talk about this...try not to see one another as on a soap box proclaiming heretical slurs .... someone to be taken down....I thought we were all on the same side??
`Cid...forgivness...doesn`t negate our clear biblical instructions concerning a man who does what vp did.
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rascal
Did I learn anything from pfal??? Well cid to be honest..the things I learned in pfal, though they seemed innocuos and harmless on the surface...invariably were the basis for a springboard into the false teachings that so harmed us.
The scriptures that I was taught invariably became the foundation for the bars of my prison...the ammunition for the weapon held to my head to enforce somebody elses will.
It might have been ok if the will being enforced was Godly...but what i was required to do was not.
In hindsight, to me...pfal seems like the gateway (thinking like gateway drugs) to the harmfull things that eventually hurt us deeply and pulled us away from God.
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doojable
Jonny - you have yet to address my post - so I'm giving you another look at it.
Here's the deal:
WE HAVE NO IDEA what would have happened had VPW not stolen BG Leonard's work and turned it into a "Church in the Box." How much healing would still have been realized and how much hurt would have been avoided had VP not done his stealing? We can never say.
You want to say that there are parts of BG's class that were deliberatley left out? Okay. So who's to say that they were really wrong? OR - who's to say that these things would have been corrected in time anyway.
I'm thankful that I learned how to have a relationship with God and Jesus Christ. HOW that happened isn't relevant. I owe my allegiance to GOD and HIS SON.
NOW tell me to get over this too...
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J0nny Ling0
Dooj said; I
I am thankful for that too! And, I learned it in PFAL, as far as the knowledge is concerned. And since this thread started out to be about PFAL and things from it I still believe, I happen to believe that it IS in fact relevant to this thread. I have no allegience to anyone but God and His Son Jesus Christ. I have simply been stating a fact, that I am thankful for what I learned in the PFAL class. And I wasn't part of the BG Leonard discussion here.
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Deciderator
So the mystery, justification, sonship, all spiritual blessings put you in prison?
Or was it your approach to those who taught you this stuff?
Do you think if you had been on the periphery the way I was it may have been different?
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J0nny Ling0
In PFAL, I learned that I had Christ in me, the hope of glory. In relation to that, I also learned that had the princes of this world known of the full "package" made available to the individuals who believed in the resurrected lord and savior Jesus Christ, they would not have crucified the lord of glory. And VP said in the class something to the effect that Jesus could only be at one place at one time, but now wherever there is a believer, there is Christ. If there are a thousand believers believing in who they are, they can "chop ol Satans' ears off a thousand times!" And in that context he shared John 14:12:
"For the works that I do, ye shall do also, and greater works than these shall ye do for I go unto my father."
And I was like Yeah! Man that was and IS cool to the max! And shortly after learning these things, my Daddy had a heart attack, and was in the hospital at death's door. And being the foolish nineteen year old that I was to believe such "clap trap", I drove to the hospital after I'd learned it, went into the waiting room to be with my Mom and brothers and sister to see what was going on. At some point the doctor came and told us that my Dad was in dire straits and probably wouldn't make it. At that point I just prayed to God within myself and said; "Well God, Jesus said that the works that he did, I could do also. Here goes and thanks for being with me". I walked into the ICU to his bedside, was told by the doctors to leave, looked into my dear sweet Dad's frightened eyes as he was gasping for air, and I held his ankles (there were doctors on either side of the bed) and in the name of Jesus Christ ministered healing to him by claiming the promise of God that He wills that we be prosperous and be in health. Immediately his breathing eased and the fear in his eyes subsided. And I told him that he was going to be alright. And then I went back into the waiting room. I told my family that he was going to be okay because God had healed him. Sometime later, we heard a literal "whooping" coming from the intensive care unit. I went through the door followed by my family, and there was a different doctor excitedly explaining to the one that I had seen earlier saying that the initial EKG (or whatever they used to determine the damage) that showed a seventy percent destruction of his heart, "must have been a mistake! Because the second one that we took now shows that everything is fine!" Just then, as if on cue, like in a movie or something, the nurse says; "Doctor, his pulse! Look!" And we turned and there at my Dad's bedside was some sort of digital pulse monitor that was dropping dramatically from a near fibrillation state to a nice and normal pulse. And my Dad had tears streaming down his smiling face. And then the whooping Doctor said really loud; "We're in Fat City baby!" And I'll never forget that as long as I live, for we had all witnessed a miracle. And then when the doctors began to talk of how this could have happened, I simply told them that they had witnessed a miracle of healing and that it was done in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. "Two of you were there when I prayed" I told them, "and you know full well what has happened here, and God Almighty gets the glory!" And then I went over and on some kind of a nurses marker board next to my Dad's bed, I wrote this verse from Jeremiah;
"Behold, I am the lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for me?"
And the answer to that rhetorical question is an obvious and resounding "NO". And I told my Dad that he'd just been healed and that he'd be fine. And then, I asked him if he believed Romans 10;9, and with tears he replied; "Well I sure as hell do now! And thank you so much son, I am so proud of you", as he gripped my hand.
And, I gained that confidence and strength to do that from the PFAL class, and for that I will be forever thankful. That old "sogwap" attitude you know. Was it an "instantaneous miracle? Or just a "reglar" healing. I don't know nor care. My Dad lived to a ripe old age and now awaits the return of our lord. That incident occurred at the Bethesda Naval Medical Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. It's on record there somewhere no doubt.
Once again, I do not deny VPWs sins and the hurt that they caused. But I am also thankful that he taught that class and that I took it.
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Deciderator
So who do we forgive?
And who do we love?
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doojable
We forgive them all - (IMHO) but forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. In fact forgiveness requires remembering.
We Love them all. But again - we are still to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Just because I love - doesn't mean that I'm not honest. In fact, Jesus himself said that it's easy to love those that we like - it's the unloveable that we need to extend ourselves to.
Here: its in my signature now, but I'm making it bigger for all to see:
I shall allow no man to belittle my soul by making me hate him.-- Booker T. Washington
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Deciderator
Me too.
The way things went down, I just kept on a-truckin.'
I had a great twig coordinator, what can I say?
Rascal, I wish you had been in my twig.
And later when I went to Paris, I wish you could have hung out with believers I know there who also did much to help me stay focused on the Word and not politics or accusations or all the other trauma. A couple of times I tried to talk about it and they just hijacked the discussion to the Word, and usually something unrelated to what was going on.
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J0nny Ling0
Awesome quote Dooj!
And, I think that you are so right about forgiveness. Lots of people (in my opinion) seem to think that to forgive means that you will trust that person again like you did before the offense took place. Not so, in my book. I can forgive, but I may never trust that person again. I think that forgiveness many times is for the forgive-ER and not the forgive-EE.
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rascal
Well God forgives when we repent and ask...I guess that I will forgive then as well...We are to love one another for sure....
That in no way negates our instructions given concerning those of the flesh or those ministers that do what vp did....
The teachings that you mentioned I think distract from the ones that led into the more dangerous stuff.
Teaching that all the women in the kingdom belonged to David was used as the foundation for the later teaching vpw used to justify his adultery and taking of young women...
Teaching about recieving equals believing led to the teachings that to seek medical treatment was not believing....to not do what was asked even when dangerous....was not believing....
Teaching that confession of reciept equals reciept of confession ...led to people not being allowed to speak of medical conditions and needs because it meant they were confessing negatives....I know that people died directly because of this....they kept quiet about symptoms of illness. (no negatives) ..not seeking medical help (believing God) and died suddenly.
The teachings in pfal led to other doctrines....obedience to leadership right or wrong...that God would cover no matter what because of our hearts....people followed these teachings with pure heart and in innocence died.
Drugging rape....death..broken marriages...children aborted.....
These do not bear the ear marks of a spiritually healthy foundation.
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waysider
Doojable
Actually it was Johniam, not Jonny Lingo, who stated there where things in BG's class that were deliberately left out of PFAL.
I asked if he would care to elaborate but never saw these differences addressed.
Might now be as good a time as any to do so?
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rascal
Well God forgives when we repent and ask...I guess that I will forgive then as well...We are to love one another for sure....
That in no way negates our instructions given concerning those of the flesh or those ministers that do what vp did....
The teachings that you mentioned I think distract from the ones that led into the more dangerous stuff.
Teaching that all the women in the kingdom belonged to David was used as the foundation for the later teaching vpw used to justify his adultery and taking of young women...
Teaching about recieving equals believing led to the teachings that to seek medical treatment was not believing....
Teaching that confession of reciept equals reciept of confession ...led to people not being allowed to speak of medical conditions and needs because it meant they were confessing negatives....I know that people died directly because of this.
The teachings led to other doctrines....obedience to leadership right or wrong...that God would cover no matter what because of our hearts....people followed these teachings with pure heart and in innocence died.
Drugging rape....death..broken marriages...children aborted.....
These do not bear the ear marks of a spiritually healthy foundation.
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J0nny Ling0
In PFAL, I learned that I had Christ in me, the hope of glory. In relation to that, I also learned that had the princes of this world known of the full "package" made available to the individuals who believed in the resurrected lord and savior Jesus Christ, they would not have crucified the lord of glory. And VP said in the class something to the effect that Jesus could only be at one place at one time, but now wherever there is a believer, there is Christ. If there are a thousand believers believing in who they are, they can "chop ol Satans' ears off a thousand times!" And in that context he shared John 14:12:
"For the works that I do, ye shall do also, and greater works than these shall ye do for I go unto my father."
And I was like Yeah! Man that was and IS cool to the max! And shortly after learning these things, my Daddy had a heart attack, and was in the hospital at death's door. And being the foolish nineteen year old that I was to believe such "clap trap", I drove to the hospital after I'd learned it, went into the waiting room to be with my Mom and brothers and sister to see what was going on. At some point the doctor came and told us that my Dad was in dire straits and probably wouldn't make it. At that point I just prayed to God within myself and said; "Well God, Jesus said that the works that he did, I could do also. Here goes and thanks for being with me". I walked into the ICU to his bedside, was told by the doctors to leave, looked into my dear sweet Dad's frightened eyes as he was gasping for air, and I held his ankles (there were doctors on either side of the bed) and in the name of Jesus Christ ministered healing to him by claiming the promise of God that He wills that we be prosperous and be in health. Immediately his breathing eased and the fear in his eyes subsided. And I told him that he was going to be alright. And then I went back into the waiting room. I told my family that he was going to be okay because God had healed him. Sometime later, we heard a literal "whooping" coming from the intensive care unit. I went through the door followed by my family, and there was a different doctor excitedly explaining to the one that I had seen earlier saying that the initial EKG (or whatever they used to determine the damage) that showed a seventy percent destruction of his heart, "must have been a mistake! Because the second one that we took now shows that everything is fine!" Just then, as if on cue, like in a movie or something, the nurse says; "Doctor, his pulse! Look!" And we turned and there at my Dad's bedside was some sort of digital pulse monitor that was dropping dramatically from a near fibrillation state to a nice and normal pulse. And my Dad had tears streaming down his smiling face. And then the whooping Doctor said really loud; "We're in Fat City baby!" And I'll never forget that as long as I live, for we had all witnessed a miracle. And then when the doctors began to talk of how this could have happened, I simply told them that they had witnessed a miracle of healing and that it was done in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. "Two of you were there when I prayed" I told them, "and you know full well what has happened here, and God Almighty gets the glory!" And then I went over and on some kind of a nurses marker board next to my Dad's bed, I wrote this verse from Jeremiah;
"Behold, I am the lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for me?"
And the answer to that rhetorical question is an obvious and resounding "NO". And I told my Dad that he'd just been healed and that he'd be fine. And then, I asked him if he believed Romans 10;9, and with tears he replied; "Well I sure as hell do now! And thank you so much son, I am so proud of you", as he gripped my hand.
And, I gained that confidence and strength to do that from the PFAL class, and for that I will be forever thankful. That old "sogwap" attitude you know. Was it an "instantaneous miracle? Or just a "reglar" healing. I don't know nor care. My Dad lived to a ripe old age and now awaits the return of our lord. That incident occurred at the Bethesda Naval Medical Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. It's on record there somewhere no doubt.
Once again, I do not deny VPWs sins and the hurt that they caused. But I am also thankful that he taught that class and that I took it.
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Zaka muka! Ngiku zololay! Ozala kamoto!
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