A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL

[Dot Matrix]

Perhaps Joniam

Did you take Leonard's class?

Cause I have the book and am thinking about it. Friend of mine had lunch with his wife this past week.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Dot Matrix

[rascal]

Sorry you can`t handle people not answering the question to your liking...shrug....I repeat, like it or not.....there were TWO parts to the threads question...*DO we still believe it*....the answere is NOPE and heres why.....so sorry that hacks you off friend.

[Dot Matrix]

Rascal

I went to chat and you weren't there, I thought Jeaniam might go but she is laughing in bed or something

OOPS

Gone to bed laughing

[rascal]

:)

Edited August 4, 2007 by rascal

[Dot Matrix]

Oh well, bless her heart, God spared her the corps and a lot of bunk, she was lucky there.

Okay want to go chat?

[Larry N Moore]

Sorry you can`t handle people not answering the question to your liking...shrug....I repeat, like it or not.....there were TWO parts to the threads question...*DO we still believe it*....the answere is NOPE and heres why.....so sorry that hacks you off friend.

Oh! Are you speaking to me rascal?

[WordWolf]

Hmm . . . maybe that explains why doreen has abandon her own thread.

A) Once any of us has started a thread here, the thread belongs to the entire board,

whether we wish it to or not. (Technically, it belongs to the admin, but he doesn't

get possessive of the threads.) We can ASK posters to cooperate, but if they do not,

or if the thread takes a direction we didn't anticipate or even didn't WANT, we can't

enforce our will past asking again, nicely.

(The staff reserves the right to make exceptions, of course.)

B) Since she last posted on page 2 of the thread, when discussion was still along the

lines of what she asked, I'd say she got as much as she was going to get from this

thread, and then saw no need to post any further. I don't see the situation as her

"abandoning a thread". Posters are not required to continue to post on a thread,

or to post at all on any thread. Without her saying so one way or the other, any

reasoning (including mine) as to why she's not posting on the thread any further

is simply speculation- and speculation largely independent of any evidence to base

a speculation on, for that matter.

[J0nny Ling0]

Well now. If you don't like it when someone derails an already derailed thread, then don't derail it in the first place. For, it just makes you look stupid...

Edited August 4, 2007 by Jonny Lingo

[WordWolf]

Well now. If you don't like it when someone derails an already derailed thread, then don't derail it in the first place. For, it just makes you look stupid...

Are you planning on a new argument- who derailed the thread, when, and with what weapon?

I'm just curious-it looks like you are here, and I just wanted to know.

[J0nny Ling0]

Basically, I would have to say that the thread was derailed by those who are still angry at VPW who is dead and gone. I have said it before, and I will say it again. I liked many of the things I learned in PFAL. I believe many of those things to be true to this day. The Thread title asked; "What do I still believe?" And, I shared (typed) the things that are still a blessing to me. But, here comes those who are still angry at VP (for justified reasons-don't forget I said that-I do not deny them!), and derail the thread because they are still angry at a corpse who has gone the way of all flesh. He is dead. He **** e d up royally, hurting perhaps thousands, but, this thread is (or was) about "things in PFAL that we still believe". Sorry folks, but it just gets under my skin that a thread can't stay on track without all of those still angry at Wierwille taking away any positive thing that a person may have experienced during those days...

Sorry. I learned to read from a wicked 1st grade teacher. But, I am thankful that she taught me to read. And, I am still a voracious reader. Could I have learned from another teacher how to read? Shore! (sure!), But, I give the credit to Mrs. Storm for sending me off into the world of literature at an early age. And, that's the way I feel about VPW and my quest for biblical knowledge....

[rascal]

It`s only derailed in your opinion because you don`t like the answeres given to the question asked...which makes accusations of a derail ACTUALLY the real derail :)

You only see the first part of the question because that is all you want to see....you want to be mad at people for answereing the second part of the question AS well as the first....that is silly.

Edited August 4, 2007 by rascal

[J0nny Ling0]

Geez Rascal, you must be passionate! It is 12:18 a.m here in AK! It must be what, 3:18. 4:18 a.m. where you are? Wow! Well, that's the way I feel, and maybe this will be my last word on it. Take care, and have a nice Michigan Saturday tomorrow (today)! Hope you have some sunshine. Looks overcast for us tomorrow. But, we are going fishing for Chinook salmon tomorrow! Yahoo!! And you, go catch small mouthed bass! :)

[WordWolf]

Basically, I would have to say that the thread was derailed by those who are still angry at VPW who is dead and gone.

[Actually, there's been posters on this thread- not any of the usual posters-

who saw the direct relevance of the turn of discussion into a direction not anticipated

in the initial post. They explained how they saw the connections. Perhaps there's a legitimate

way to see this as part of the same discussion-since they certainly saw it that way, and a number

of people have said they do, as well. Perhaps there's a legitimate point of view here that's

not Jonny Lingo-specific. Perhaps it's worth considering.]

I have said it before, and I will say it again. I liked many of the things I learned in PFAL. I believe many of those things to be true to this day.

[i found benefits as well, and I posted about them on this thread pretty early on.

(It's on page 2, if you're curious.)]

The Thread title asked; "What do I still believe?" And, I shared (typed) the things that are still a blessing to me. But, here comes those who are still angry at VP (for justified reasons-don't forget I said that-I do not deny them!), and derail the thread because they are still angry at a corpse who has gone the way of all flesh. He is dead. He **** e d up royally, hurting perhaps thousands, but, this thread is (or was) about "things in PFAL that we still believe".

[Discussions of reasons pfal doctrines and practices were DISCARDED ARE on-topic for this thread,

based on the initial question. That covers a lot of ground.]

Sorry folks, but it just gets under my skin that a thread can't stay on track without all of those still angry at Wierwille taking away any positive thing that a person may have experienced during those days...

[Then again, have you seen what it generally takes to have a serious thread critical

of vpw and pfal without posters trying to change the subject and negate the thread?

From your post, it would sound like there's one type of thread that never gets interrupted,

and a different type that always gets interrupted. Every substantial thread gets interrupted,

especially the opinionated ones. It's not just the threads YOU like.

Oh, and BTW, I once STARTED a thread specifically for the benefit of people who ONLY

wanted to talk about PRO-vpw and PRO-pfal matters, since some people were complaining

they couldn't get a break. It languished from disuse- and much of the use it did get

was COMPLAINTS from the pro-vpw and pro-pfal people, which struck me as a little odd.]

Sorry. I learned to read from a wicked 1st grade teacher. But, I am thankful that she taught me to read. And, I am still a voracious reader. Could I have learned from another teacher how to read? Shore! (sure!), But, I give the credit to Mrs. Storm for sending me off into the world of literature at an early age. And, that's the way I feel about VPW and my quest for biblical knowledge....

[Others feel differently, and think the comparison is not a fair one, and have explained why.

There is such a thing as "agreeing to disagree."]

Edited August 4, 2007 by WordWolf

[waysider]

quote: But look at all that was lost...

Actually, there's a lot of stuff BG Leonard taught that was not in pfal...deliberately.

Well, now

That looks like it might be relevant to the topic at hand.

Care to elaborate?

[Jeaniam]

If anyone here is an alcoholic, besides VPW the great man himself, perhaps they drink to forget being raped.

I do not drink. On a rare occasion I have a wine cooler. But that is not the point.

Jeaniam how dare you speak to Rascal like that?

How dare I? I read her posts.

Grudge holding? How so? You defend an evil man. She exposes him - therefore she holds a grudge?

Many people crawl to GSC looking for answers or deliverance from also being conned, raped, or heart broken. If they find you praising the man who did that to them, they may never get healed. She and others post on these kinds of threads to expose the illusion.

Illusion? I and others merely speak up for the positive side of TWI so it doesn't get buried under 12 layers of garbage.

Wrath?- I would say indignation over the posts that people who still laud VPW to the sky present

I haven't seen many people who want to 'laud him to the skies'; just people who want to see the WHOLE truth told, that he was a man like any other with his good points and his bad ones.

Bitterness - you are saying that because when people like you bring up the great memories of VP, she brings up the dangerous side. You do not like it so you call her bitter.

How is he dangerous to anyone anymore? He's dead, as I and some others have pointed out repeatedly.

Rejoicing in unrighteousness - got me stumped there, she is one of the straightest people I know, and surely does not REJOICE in unrighteouness

She sure comes across to me like she rejoices in HIS alleged unrighteousness as much time as she spends talking about it.

Slander? How so? She tells her truth which doesn't match yours so it is slander?

It is at best only part of the truth.

Strife? I'd say you cause her as much strife as she causes you. You've been no laid back seetie pie since you've been here

So, how's that non judgemental thing working for you? Jeaniam?

Pretty well actually. I have never suggested that she might not be born again or that she might not be going to heaven no matter how pharisaical and hypocritical her posts are.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Jeaniam

[Larry N Moore]

A) Once any of us has started a thread here, the thread belongs to the entire board,

whether we wish it to or not. (Technically, it belongs to the admin, but he doesn't

get possessive of the threads.) We can ASK posters to cooperate, but if they do not,

or if the thread takes a direction we didn't anticipate or even didn't WANT, we can't

enforce our will past asking again, nicely.

(The staff reserves the right to make exceptions, of course.)

B) Since she last posted on page 2 of the thread, when discussion was still along the

lines of what she asked, I'd say she got as much as she was going to get from this

thread, and then saw no need to post any further. I don't see the situation as her

"abandoning a thread". Posters are not required to continue to post on a thread,

or to post at all on any thread. Without her saying so one way or the other, any

reasoning (including mine) as to why she's not posting on the thread any further

is simply speculation- and speculation largely independent of any evidence to base

a speculation on, for that matter.

WW, let me clue you in on something which may or may not stop you from trying to educate me on the dynamics of boardieland.

I started out as a moderator of a religious/philosophy discussion board at which I eventually advanced to the position of an Administrator. From there I became the owner and administrator of not one -- but three separate discussion boards.

So please spare me (and save yourself some time) trying to educate me on board dynamics. It's a waste of bandwidth.

[anotherDan]

(snip...)

Everyone deals with their pain in different ways. Hopefully they won't have to deal with it the rest of their lives. I believe it's highly possible that God has brought some people here (GS) to work through it. I think Gamaliel said it best when he said: ". . . for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." I don't see myself as an "instrument" for God in this regard. However, I hope I'm not an "instrument" against God.

Your Gamaliel quote is well taken. Also makes me think in sympathy with others, that a once world-wide ministry has bitten the dust. The ministry in my mind has "come to nothing." But I think it is also true that something that God worked there in my heart still abides. I believe that is also true of many others. We've kept the baby, and thrown out the bathwater, best we could. If Dr.W's accusers are right, it could explain a lot of things about how the ministry died such an inglorious death. This has probably been done... maybe not, but perhaps now that there has been time for whomever wants to chime in with "me too," someone could collect all the allegations into one post on a new thread so that a visitor could hear all the evidence he or she would like, including all the salacious details. It might satisfy that need to be heard (or to vent) enough that a thread like this could survive without becoming derailed. It seems like quite a stretch for these to say that the appendage "and do you still believe them" justifies what is clearly a derailment. Here's the complete first post:

Just wondering...When I first took the class...to learn that I could get born again and have eternal life I was amazed!

To learn that Jesus Christ is not God...That made the perfect sense. To learn that when I die, I don't go to Heaven right away also made the perfect sense. These are really big things I never knew before the class and teach my children these truths.

I've heard there was alot of errors in PFAL, but these few things...do you still believe them to be true? Just wondering...

Someone could honestly reply that based on the allegations (pointing to the afore-suggested new thread), they felt that "the Teacher" was a disgrace, whose "good" was far outweighed by the evil that he had done, or something like that. That would be respecting the intentions of the person who started the thread, IMO. There is no enforced rule that strictly requires anyone to be courteous, and ridiculous to suggest that there could be one. "Please be courteous" is about all one can say.

This thread could have been an opportunity to for authentic discussion about the actual material in the class. It was that opportunity, but it's long gone, (with Dorene, apparently). But reciprocity is in order! Those who today have been touched personally with the hurts others have expressed have an obligation to be forebearing, kind, and understanding towards those who are still dealing with that type of stuff.,

[Outfield]

I was definitely released learning that we don't go to heaven right when we die. From the age of 12 I had contimplated suicide because why should we all be living down here in misery when we could be in heaven -- and then why did other's get to enjoy it longer? Thessalonians taught in the class made perfect sense to me -- as well as spiritual issues. I am happy I know what I know.

[Larry N Moore]

This thread could have been an opportunity to for authentic discussion about the actual material in the class.

I agree.

Well, on that note I'm think I'll go play some golf (or hack some golf-balls). :)

Have a wonderful day!

[WordWolf]

WW, let me clue you in on something which may or may not stop you from trying to educate me on the dynamics of boardieland.

I started out as a moderator of a religious/philosophy discussion board at which I eventually advanced to the position of an Administrator. From there I became the owner and administrator of not one -- but three separate discussion boards.

So please spare me (and save yourself some time) trying to educate me on board dynamics. It's a waste of bandwidth.

Well,

you WERE the one who raised the issue of "why has the initial poster stopped posting?"

I posted to address that.

You might have appreciated a refresher.

Especially since this board operates differently from every board I'VE admin'ed or mod'ed, which makes it likely you could say the same.

The "rules of engagement" are from a different "playbook."

It's not like I drafted a lengthy letter or anything.

You're welcome.

I was definitely released learning that we don't go to heaven right when we die. From the age of 12 I had contimplated suicide because why should we all be living down here in misery when we could be in heaven -- and then why did other's get to enjoy it longer? Thessalonians taught in the class made perfect sense to me -- as well as spiritual issues. I am happy I know what I know.

So am I.

If no sorrow was added to others while I was receiving benefits of knowledge, that would really have been noteworthy, at least to me.

Shame it didn't happen like that.

[Dot Matrix]

To whom it may concern:

There have been threads on plagiarism, and the folks who do not think that happened, derailed it, by saying things like we need to PROOVE plagiarism.

So, don't try and act like a positive thread was started, and derailed by people as it is the norm for us to derail while you guys are blameless, because when a thread WE think is delivering the other bunch is quick to jump in and try to discredit our points of view.

So, it is a way of life here. A man such a VPW brings up strong polarized opinions. Those who loved PFAL and give him the credit, and those who were raped or severely mistreated that PFAL recedes to a dull memory. When any good is recognized it is seen from God in the middle of a hail storm... Reaching through crap to rescue those that truly sought him.

Praise God, give Glory to God! Hallelujah!!!

Edited August 4, 2007 by Dot Matrix

[Ham]

I think that some people can't get it.. that a person with a really really flawed character can do something good, for one reason or another. I would say that USUALLY the motive for doing so is self-serving.

Would a "normal", logical, reasonable person assert that Capone wasn't such a bad guy, that it wasn't really so bad when he "offed" a few people, sold heroin and other contraband, that it really wasn't so bad.. after all, a few thousand unemployed folks got a free cup of coffee and donut?

"You're a SAINT, *mr* Capone.."

In a way, I feel like my time in der vey.. I had merely sold my soul for a stinking cup of coffee and a donut. I hate donuts.. The price? Well.. they had whole PROGRAMS designed to teach the inductee how to properly sing "doc" vic's praises, and later, the loyster's.

Why is it.. the most staunch supporters of the vicster I've met, when I challenge them with, "WHAT results? Just name me one.." and I'm met with silence.. or,

"I had a good time." "the fellowship was really fun"

pretty vague.. I can make the same claim for a civic organization I'm involved with..

dues are twenty dollars a YEAR.. and even that is not enforced..

[Dot Matrix]

Jean:

I asked:

So, how's that non judgemental thing working for you? Jeaniam?

Pretty well actually. I have never suggested that she might not be born again or that she might not be going to heaven no matter how pharisaical and hypocritical her posts are.

This is your criteria?

You called Rascal:

I don't understand how you managed to insert yourself into the middle of it, but since you have, let's take a quick look at the fruit in your life; wrath, bitterness, strife, rejoicing in unrighteousness, grudge-holding, slander

You didn’t suggest she wasn’t born again, therefore all other accusations disappear?

Then, you called her hypocritical. How so Jeaniam? Seems to me you lash out at people and think you get a get a free pass and when she responds & you act like the wolf.

Again,

So, how's that non-judgmental thing working for you?

Jean said:

I haven't seen many people who want to 'laud him to the skies'; just people who want to see the WHOLE truth told, that he was a man like any other with his good points and his bad ones.

Do you see the whole truth Jean?

I said:

When you called Rascal bitter -

Bitterness - you are saying that because when people like you bring up the great memories of VP, she brings up the dangerous side. You do not like it so you call her bitter.

Your response does not address her bitterness, but the fact I called him dangerous

How is he dangerous to anyone anymore? He's dead, as I and some others have pointed out repeatedly.

The fact that he is DEAD does not eliminate the danger. There are new people who show up here like Exwaycorps, seeking answers, looking for understanding. If we only talk about a few things PFAL did for you, he would have never put the pieces together about what happened to him on the WOW field. There is dander in a man who sowed bad fodder, it grows and can reproduce weeds long after the original has passed. VP left a legacy, a bad one to many people. Things he did are stored in the nooks and crannies of people’s lives who are still ferreting out the damage done to them. Yes. They can recall the first class, and maybe the great day it was that they spoke in tongues. Glory to God!

But shortly after that birth (from BG Leonard’s work) we were snatched into an evil cult. This delivers many people to understand how a great class could be taught by such a bad man.

So, yes there are still dangers. There is still deliverance.

I said:

When you called Rascal unrighteous

Rejoicing in unrighteousness - got me stumped there, she is one of the straightest people I know, and surely does not REJOICE in unrighteouness

Your response:

She sure comes across to me like she rejoices in HIS alleged unrighteousness as much time as she spends talking about it.

Well, see now Jean you called it alleged when we have first hand accounts. You want first hand accounts and you get them, then you want blue dress proof. Truth is you cannot handle the fact that a man who taught you a feel good stolen class was not all you thought he was,

Then, you say RASCAL is unrighteous as she talks about the things the con man did to his flock?

Come on Jean, you are grasping there.

Jean, you will still be born again, God still loves you, just because we were tricked by a bad man doesn't mean God is bad or that you are. The fact that some were raped by him doesn't make THEM bad.

Mr H

Great point!

[doojable]

But, here comes those who are still angry at VP (for justified reasons-don't forget I said that-I do not deny them!), and derail the thread because they are still angry at a corpse who has gone the way of all flesh. He is dead. He **** e d up royally, hurting perhaps thousands, but, this thread is (or was) about "things in PFAL that we still believe". Sorry folks, but it just gets under my skin that a thread can't stay on track without all of those still angry at Wierwille taking away any positive thing that a person may have experienced during those days...

Jonny - Here's the reason why so many families that demand the death penalty for someone who has murdered a loved one end up feeling so empty. VPW is dead - but there still is no real closure. Mothers who have watched their childrens' murderers die in the death chamber end up feeling empty because the murderer's death doesn't bring their child back. The loss, the grief, the pain and emptiness live on.

You yourself have presented a situation where it took you a long time to forgive a man that had stolen from your family. I'll ask you to multiply those feelings by 10,000,000. Now maybe you'll get close to what a victim of sexual abuse feels. Got it?

Top of the World posted her gut wrenching experience from lead. - NOT ONE PERSON with a heart would tell her to "get over it and move on."

VPW is dead - but his "ministry" lives on; his teachings live on; and his victims live on - along with the pain and shame that they must carry.

On a much milder note:

I lost my mother to cancer when I was 8 years old. I don't cry about it very much anymore but I do still cry. I cried when I got married because I wanted to share the things that mothers and daughters share. I cried when my children were born because I couldn't show her her lovely grandbabies. Sometimes I just cry when I'd like to talk to her and get her advice.

It's not an everyday thing. It's not even a yearly thing. But the pain still lives on, although it's smaller and hidden in a part of my heart that I believe makes me a better person - but there it resides all the same.

You want to tell me to get over it?

BTW - maybe you love reading - but what about that poor boy she humiliated in public? I wonder if he loves reading... Think about it ...

Edited August 4, 2007 by doojable

[Dot Matrix]

Forgot one

I responded to Jean calling Rascal Grudge holding-

Grudge holding? How so? You defend an evil man. She exposes him - therefore she holds a grudge?

Many people crawl to GSC looking for answers or deliverance from also being conned, raped, or heart broken. If they find you praising the man who did that to them, they may never get healed. She and others post on these kinds of threads to expose the illusion.

Her response-

Illusion? I and others merely speak up for the positive side of TWI so it doesn't get buried under 12 layers of garbage.

But if you do not temper your "positive side" by some facts - it does perpetuate the illusion that TWI was not a cult and that VPW was a Man of God.

Do you read the Bible?

How can you reconcile all of this and conclude things are merely alleged and to just "stay positive?" about a hugely negative force. That is delusional and seems to be what VP himself subscribed to-

Whatsoever ever things are pure -- think on those things--

That was how he MADE sin okay, he blamed those that confronted him with the charge of thinking evil -- he admonished us to think of it as pure....

How can you reconcile all of this and conclude things are merely alleged and to just "stay positive?" about a hugely negative force. That is delusional and seems to be what VP himself subscribed to-

Whatsoever ever things are pure -- think on those things--

That was how he MADE sin okay, he blamed those that confronted him with the charge of thinking evil -- he admonished us to think of it as pure....

If you do not consider it evil - it isn't, that was the simple inner-circle teachings he would lay on us.

If we SEE something BAD we are not thinking of it correctly - bad is good and good was bad.

It is an ominous doctrine and against God

This inner circle sinned and believed that they lived above the word of God. It was an evil very wrong doctrine, not a mistake, a doctrine. An on purpose doctrine designed to snare us and keep us from finding more truth than PFAL, a snare to take away our personal relationship with Jesus, a snare to take people sexually at his whim and to teach others "the enlightened ones" to do the same.

Described as a higher plane and only people who "could handle it" were invited to partake. Anyone who objected or reproved their behavior was considered someone who "stumbled" at their freedom in their walk with Christ. Therefore, there was no way to correct them, they exalted themselves as gods deciding what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 3:5).

This is wicked.