A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL

[rascal]

I guess that I don`t know why you do what you do, and it was foolish of me to surmise.... I only know that it hurts.

Edited August 2, 2007 by rascal

[Bumpy]

Children, children, you sound just like little ones arguing amongst yourselves as to who is right and who will have the “last word”! One seems to have taken too much “brown acid”, one is a “doubting Thomas” and one looks like she needs to have her meds reviewed.

Look at the bright side...you weren’t driving on the bridge last night. The stock market has reported some good earnings today, the sun is shining and you’re officially out of the Way? Even though it’s all you can talk about?? B O R I N G very BORING... get a glass of French wine, a new book and improve your mind! Get A Life!

Better yet, write a few chapters on your Cult Book, but please NOT all of the chapters on older men taking advantage of young girls...that happens everywhere!

[Jeaniam]

Oldies, you've come a long ways to admit these things! I think that's a big deal, brother! I don't expect anyone to shelve any good experiences they've had…just be willing to consider the other side of things as well…a realistic picture is one that takes in all the details…warts and all.

Yes, but a realistic picture takes in all the details both good and bad. I was not in an area where such things took place. In the areas where I was the doctrine was; 'Gentlemen, keep it in your pants; ladies, keep your pants on', and it was strictly adhered to, and no, I don't believe that it was merely a smoke screen to conceal what was really going on behind the scenes.

Yes, John and I were exposed to some of the negative aspects of TWI that arose in its later life, but speaking ONLY for John and myself, we decided that the good of the doctrine we were taught ouweighed the pain we experienced. Now please understand that I am speaking for John and myself, and ONLY for John and myself. I want the picture that is portrayed to include the good also, and not to smear the good god-loving men in TWI who would probably not rape a woman at the point of a gun.

[doojable]

WhiteDove - I have been around lawyers for the past ten years. If I'm not mistaken, you're approaching this matter with the logic that a lawyer would use - and logic is by nature, cold and hard. Math, science, logic, statistics - all based on fact and data. This is not a condemnation - it's fact.

Arguing with an attorney is supremely frustrating because part of the training in the law includes arguing from the other side. Law students are given a set of facts and told to come up with a legal argument. THEN they are told to come up with an argument that would win against their own. (I'm not implying that you're just wanting to win an argument here.)

My point here is that both sides use logic to prove their case. If logic alone were enough, we wouldn't have criminals being set free or innocent people sent to jail - and we all know that both of these things happen. The really good lawyers also know when to just look in the jury's eyes and see if they are getting through to them. Sometimes, especially with an emotional case - cold hard logic does nothing more than set a jury against the attorney. (I can cite a case that is not nearly as emotional as what we are dealing with here - but I think you are smart enough to understand what I'm saying.)

I hear you (have heard you several times now) say that you are not doubting that VPW did those things ( I hope I've got you right - since I'm going by memory) I also hear you that you want to take things on a case by case basis.

Is there anything that I'm missing up to this point?

Edited August 3, 2007 by doojable

[Ham]

If I'm not mistaken, you're approaching this matter with the logic that a lawyer would use

I think it is the logic of a defense attorney.

I know there are some good in the legal industry.. but if I had to make a living getting REAL criminals off the hook, and was successful at it, I don't think I could live with myself..

[WordWolf]

I was with Dr. and Mrs. Wierwille for a month, back in June of 1984 on a 6,000 mile motorcycle trip. This was about a year before his death. At that time, he had his glass eye; he seemed calm and serene, not having such evil power described here. Perhaps he was at a point in his life, closing in on his death, when he repented and asked God for forgiveness. I don't know. All I know is, this is the Victor Paul Wierwille I experienced and remember. I'm sorry some folks experienced a disgusting part of him.

Oldies,

I'd leave this alone,

except we've seen this happen before, so I shall ask you a simple yes-or-no question or two.

Whether or not you answer it, and if your answers are in simple yes-or-no format, will, I think,

indicate a lot as to where your thinking is at this time.

I shall begin.

1) Do you believe that the testimony of all the victims, all the people that knew the victims, the twi authority figures,

and the people currently running twi, indicate that the overwhelming likelihood is that at least some of the

rapes and other sexual crimes vpw has been said to have been committed, were in fact committed by him?

(Yes or no: do you think the weight of the evidence says "vpw did it-he committed these sexual crimes?)

2) If so, do you believe it was wrong of vpw to have carefully set up places to commit sex crimes, and set up a

structure of persons to facilitate this, and use the "from birth to the corps" papers to select his victims,

and commit these sex crimes regardless of intent to "heal" or whatever justification was used,

and to have women monitored afterwards, with their reputation savaged and them made pariahs if they looked

like they were going to tell someone what he did?

(Yes or no: do you think it was wrong of vpw to have committed these sexual crimes?)

3) Do you think that those who were victims of sexual crimes by vpw should go silent, so as to keep others from

thinking negative about vpw, even if their testimony is the truth?

(Yes or no: do you think it is wrong for vpw's victims to tell their stories now?)

4) Do you think that the proper response to all the victims of vpw's sex crimes is to claim that they were all willing

participants, that they must have wanted it if they didn't immediately run to the police?

(Yes or no: Is it right to think all his victims were consensual if they didn't go straight to the police?)

5) Do you think that the sole opinion of all aspects of twi should be reflected by the sex crimes of its founder?

(Yes or no: Do vpw's sex crimes pose the beginning and end on all matters twi?)

===========================

(I added the last as a softball.)

See,

the reason I ask these questions is simple.

From time to time, there's been a "moment of enlightenment", a "turning point" of "but now I see",

and then months later, the reset button was pressed, and it's like that whole conversation never happened.

So, I ask outright.

Please speak plainly, and answer in a yes-no fashion, using as many words as you need, but including a

clear, unambiguous, unequivocal yes-no answer that any normal English reading adult could see means

yes or no.

If you wish, once you've done that, I'll do the same for 5 questions of your own.

And if I find myself unable to on any question, I shall explain plainly, in detail, and give the answers related

to it that I CAN give plainly.

Fair is fair.

=======

Oh,

and if you elect NOT to address these questions, of course,

that will tell the reading audience something in and of itself.....

[excathedra]

let's see ? the man of god of our day and time was born in 1913 ? did someone say that was the year ?

when i was 19, that would make him 62 ?

when i was 23, that would make him 66 ?

gross

Edited August 2, 2007 by excathedra

[T-Bone]

Yes, but a realistic picture takes in all the details both good and bad. I was not in an area where such things took place. In the areas where I was the doctrine was; 'Gentlemen, keep it in your pants; ladies, keep your pants on', and it was strictly adhered to, and no, I don't believe that it was merely a smoke screen to conceal what was really going on behind the scenes.

Yes, John and I were exposed to some of the negative aspects of TWI that arose in its later life, but speaking ONLY for John and myself, we decided that the good of the doctrine we were taught ouweighed the pain we experienced. Now please understand that I am speaking for John and myself, and ONLY for John and myself. I want the picture that is portrayed to include the good also, and not to smear the good god-loving men in TWI who would probably not rape a woman at the point of a gun.

That is precisely what I meant in my statement – a realistic picture takes in ALL the details. I do a similar thing in dealing with my own TWI experience. I look at the good and bad experiences I've had…and doctrine-wise have tried to discern what's right/wrong/inconclusive/doesn't matter…It's my impression that's what a lot of folks do here.

Now I think some folks who have never experienced the dark side of TWI's underbelly these horror stories can be a real shocker…maybe even a devastating blow to their belief system. And if their belief system has been hit that hard – it makes me wonder how much of it is based on reality. I think once people get past the denial phase and learn to accept reality – that's the whole picture – the good and the bad – they develop a much stronger belief system.

Edited August 2, 2007 by T-Bone

[Bumpy]

let's see ? the man of god of our day and time was born in 1913 ? did someone say that was the year ?

when i was 19, that would make him 62 ?

when i was 23, that would make him 66 ?

gross

Well, let's just say he was just " a dirty 'older' man...with one eye!

[WhiteDove]

WhiteDove - I have been around lawyers for the past ten years. If I'm not mistaken, you're approaching this matter with the logic that a lawyer would use - and logic is by nature, cold and hard. Math, science, logic, statistics - all based on fact and data. This is not a condemnation - it's fact.

Arguing with an attorney is supremely frustrating because part of the training in the law includes arguing from the other side. Law students are given a set of facts and told to come up with a legal argument. THEN they are told to come up with an argument that would win against their own. (I'm not implying that you're just wanting to win an argument here.)

My point here is that both sides use logic to prove their case. If logic alone were enough, we wouldn't have criminals beind set free or innocent people sent to jail - and we all know that both of these things happen. The really good lawyers also know when to just look in the jury's eyes and see if they are gettiing through to them. Sometimes, especially with an emotional case - cold hard logic does nothing more than set a jury against the attorney. (I can cite a case that is not nearly as emotional as what we are dealing with here - but I think you are smart enough to understand what I'm saying.)

I hear you (have heard you several times now) say that you are not doubting that VPW did those things ( I hope I've got you right - since I'm going by memory) I also hear you that you want to take things on a case by case basis.

Is there anything that I'm missing up to this point?

Doojable (see I got it right sorry I thought you went by Doojie)

Nope that pretty well sums it up , Oh except for that I'm not a VPW apologist....

And you may be right ,perhaps I should look into a new career. So Far So Good Carry On

[wrdsandwrks]

Wow. This has been a very deep thread. I tried to read through all of it yesterday, I think I got through most of it. I understand that some people think the original topic was derailed by the sexual misconduct of the "Teacher" of the class.

But it just goes to show that you can't really separate the message from the messenger, especially if the messenger severely wounded you or someone you love. I think Paul talked about being "living epistles, known and read of all men", in Corinthians. People are going to read your life by how you treated others, not by how much Bible knowledge you spouted. Bottom line is VP's life didn't line up with what he taught in PFAL. There have been many Bible teachers whose ministries are derailed by the discovery of sin in their life. However, those that I've studied that were genuine ministers of the gospel, "fell" into sin and either repented of it or lost their ministries over it.

VP's life doesn't seem to fit into that mold, he had a "doctrine" that he taught to his inner sanctum that was destructive, selfish, manipulative, and evil. Many were hurt, some died because of it and because of the lack of loving care for God's people in TWI.

I did get born-again during PFAL, I spoke in tongues during PFAL. I had some great adventures in TWI, some not so great. I met my dear husband and some awesome friends. I still feel a connection to those who were in TWI, which is why GS is such a cool place. I'm thankful to reconnect here with some people I knew and to meet those I didn't know. I don't think God is done with any of us.

I'm eternally grateful to God for reaching down to me and graciously saving me and delivering me from the kingdom of darkness into the light of His marvelous Son.

I personally think that most of what was taught in PFAL is doctrinally suspect. The most important thing IMO to learn from the Bible is how have a relationship with God, the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Sprit. PFAL taught me to confess Jesus Christ as Lord but not how to make Him my Lord, Saviour and friend in day to day life. Without a relationship with Jesus Christ, I think we miss out on a huge part of the Christian life.

I've learned since leaving TWI to run to Jesus for everything. When life is great I run to Him with praise and thanksgiving. I run to Him with all my questions, I run to Him for healing and emotional deliverance. I run to Him when I'm hurt or I don't understand something. The worst times in my life are those times when I've felt like I can't get a hold of God.

Jesus is the Great High Priest who sympathizes with us in all our weaknesses, the one on the throne of grace where we obtain mercy and find grace to help every time we need it.

[Bumpy]

I've learned since leaving TWI to run to Jesus for everything. When life is great I run to Him with praise and thanksgiving. I run to Him with all my questions, I run to Him for healing and emotional deliverance. I run to Him when I'm hurt or I don't understand something.

Me Too

[rascal]

Bumpy what dog do you have in this fight? I don`t understand posting just to fling insults without adding anything of substance to the discussion. Aside from your finger in everybodies faces and your insults ...what of benefit do YOU bring to the discussion at hand?

If it bothers you to read of this stuff...than please skip over it, but please consider that there are people that are working their way to an understanding of our experiences.

There is great good beeing accomplished on several fronts here.....in spite of attempts to obstruct the truth and healing that it eventually will bring.

How can you begrudge people that?

Wrds n wrks...That was well said.

Even if pfal were 100 % doctrinally sound...it left out that vital component. All of the scriptural knowledge in the world is not enough to replace that relationship nor will it help you fullfill the 2 great commandments.

Edited August 2, 2007 by rascal

[WhiteDove]

quote name='George Aar'

Just curious WD, what exactly are you looking for as "proof"?

Semen samples maybe? Video tape? Tokins of virginity?

Obviously the likelyhood of any such "hard" evidence showing up at this late date is beyond remote,

so I guess you're safe in your stalwart stance. Kudos for your bravery!

Nevermind that the unstated reply to the victims here is that THEY"RE LYING. Nah, just ignore 'em. After all, where's the DNA tests, the fingernail scrapings, and soiled underwear?

I don't have an answer for you George I think some things in life we will never have an answer for I'm ok with that, not much I could do anyway if I wasn't. It's a little Way Brained to expect a definitive answer for everything in life now isn't it?

Now Alfakat had a suggestion back a few pages he thought numbers was the answer and had a few dozen counted even.

oh, but WD says even though literally dozens over the years on Waydale and GreaseSpot have confirmed it, he just can't accept it.....

But he only wanted to count votes from Waydale and GreaseSpot I can't for the life of me imagine why Scratch Scratch..... <-----Dove scratching his head in wonderment

It may have something to do with this that Groucho posted

Let's not forget that the underlying theme and reason that this website was created was to expose the evils of twi...GreaseSpot is the "follow up" to WayDale which was started by a husband whose wife was sexually assaulted by Craig Martindale...as a result of these two websites, hundreds, perhaps thousand have been enlightened as to what was really going on in the Way ministry, at the top levels..

Maybe he wanted to make sure we had a fair and level playing field you know where the mission was only to expose the evils of TWI :blink:

Now me if I was to do something like that (not that I think that IS the answer) but if I was Golly Gee I'd poll, OH say every one of the roughly 100,000 people that walked through TWI and see what the numbers really thought. Personally I would not think that would be the solution but you would have a more fair and balanced poll though.

Really though George I think you are right it will lay in the unknown category can't prove can't disprove not enough facts to reach a conclusion. That does not make anyone a liar just inconclusive evidence.

Edited August 2, 2007 by WhiteDove

[Bumpy]

Bumpy what dog do you have in this fight? I don`t understand posting just to fling insults without adding anything of substance to the discussion. Aside from your finger in everybodies faces and your insults ...what of benefit do YOU bring to the discussion at hand?

Honey, if you are indeed the “mistress of darkness”, there may be a reason why you are so fixated on this subject and proving your point(s), every time you feel the need to disagree with someone else? Please don’t answer that!

You may have to look at yourself first before you “judge” others...oh “mistress of darkness”.

"To Err is Human to Forgive..." <_<

[rascal]

Bumpy, most people realise that mistress of darkness was a joke .....a title once bestowed upon me by the same fellow that issued my fake doctorate :)

I don`t get it. Participate in the discussion, bring up valid points to consider...but to post for no other reason than to issue insults, to denegrate the opinions and ideas, and make snide remarks about people and meds...simply is not the way that we were told to treat one another.

I think that folks should give serious thought as to why the staunchest ministry/pfal/vpw adherants seem to find personal attacks, attempts to hurt with cruel statements, and some times just plain cussed meanness as acceptible behavior.

Step back and think abbout it for a miniute....pretend that it isn`t me asking....but just what is it about the doctrine that we were taught that makes this ok?? I think maybe there in lies the answere to why our leaders indulged in behavior that had such devistating consequences.

Edited August 2, 2007 by rascal

[Bumpy]

Bumpy, most people realise that mistress of darkness was a joke .....a title once bestowed upon me by the same fellow that issued my fake doctorate :)

I don`t get it. Participate in the discussion, bring up valid points to consider...but to post for no other reason than to issue insults, to denegrate the opinions and ideas, and make snide remarks about people and meds...simply is not the way that we were told to treat one another.

I think that folks should give serious thought as to why the staunchest ministry/pfal/vpw adherants seem to find personal attacks, attempts to hurt with cruel statements, and some times just plain cussed meanness as acceptible behavior.

Step back and think abbout it for a miniute....pretend that it isn`t me asking....but just what is it about the doctrine that we were taught that makes this ok?? I think maybe there in lies the answere to why our leaders indulged in behavior that had such devistating consequences.

Listen Lady, My last twig, fellowship, time in twi was in Oslo. I've been there and seen it. So please give me a break with all your heartbreak experiences.

[rascal]

Bumpy..why is it ok to be so mean? I honestly don`t get it. Attack the ideas presented, offer a differing view point...but why is it ok to try to insult, demean and hurt people?

I want to understand why *love God and love your neighbor* doesn`t apply unless the other person is in complete agreement with you.

I gather from your posts that you have been itching to get your pound of flesh for some time now...just looking for a chance to smack folks down....I just don`t understand this mindset coming from a supposed christian.

[excathedra]

Jesus is the Great High Priest who sympathizes with us in all our weaknesses, the one on the throne of grace where we obtain mercy and find grace to help every time we need it.

thank god

--

My last twig, fellowship, time in twi was in Oslo.

i'm so sorry

[doojable]

Doojable (see I got it right sorry I thought you went by Doojie)

Nope that pretty well sums it up , Oh except for that I'm not a VPW apologist....

And you may be right ,perhaps I should look into a new career. So Far So Good Carry On

I'll take "Dooj" ;)

I'm not sure what your opinions are regarding VPW - so I'm leaving it alone. I posted the definition and that's all - because you said that the word was being used incorrectly.

I wouldn't change careers yet ...

I said:

My point here is that both sides use logic to prove their case. If logic alone were enough, we wouldn't have criminals being set free or innocent people sent to jail - and we all know that both of these things happen. The really good lawyers also know when to just look in the jury's eyes and see if they are getting through to them. Sometimes, especially with an emotional case - cold hard logic does nothing more than set a jury against the attorney. (I can cite a case that is not nearly as emotional as what we are dealing with here - but I think you are smart enough to understand what I'm saying.)

I think this is where you might be finding the flack you're receiving here. You have no eyes to look into - and the cold hard logic is just not cutting it. Lawyers prove everyday that logic doesn't always get you to the truth - it only gets you to what you can prove.

Lawyers get advice and information from experts in fields they have no knowlege in. They do this not only to get cold hard facts, but also to gain insight into those things that logic simply cannot reach or cover. Even if the testimony isn't used in the courtroom -an expert can help them gain incredible insight. Profilers are used to help pick juries as well as to help find criminals.

Parts of your posts tell me that you might handle this differently if you were dealing with a person who's eyes you get to see. This is what is Catcup's specialty - her training.

While it doesn't fit in with logic - looking at patterns is equally valuable - while you may not want to live your life and make decisions based on this skill - it is still a valuable part of getting to the truth.

You say you're dedicated to the truth. The truth is not only about what you can prove. It's deeper and doesn't always fit into a neat little syllagism.

Edited August 2, 2007 by doojable

[Dot Matrix]

Dot your wrong about that I am fiercely loyal to truth!

1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.

2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.

3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.

4. the state or character of being true.

5. actuality or actual existence.

Gosh Dove, where did you get that from: the Pharesee handbook? <_<

Edited August 2, 2007 by Dot Matrix

[Eyesopen]

But it just goes to show that you can't really separate the message from the messenger, especially if the messenger severely wounded you or someone you love. I think Paul talked about being "living epistles, known and read of all men", in Corinthians. People are going to read your life by how you treated others, not by how much Bible knowledge you spouted. Bottom line is VP's life didn't line up with what he taught in PFAL. There have been many Bible teachers whose ministries are derailed by the discovery of sin in their life. However, those that I've studied that were genuine ministers of the gospel, "fell" into sin and either repented of it or lost their ministries over it.

VP's life doesn't seem to fit into that mold, he had a "doctrine" that he taught to his inner sanctum that was destructive, selfish, manipulative, and evil. Many were hurt, some died because of it and because of the lack of loving care for God's people in TWI.

I'm eternally grateful to God for reaching down to me and graciously saving me and delivering me from the kingdom of darkness into the light of His marvelous Son.

I personally think that most of what was taught in PFAL is doctrinally suspect. The most important thing IMO to learn from the Bible is how have a relationship with God, the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Sprit. PFAL taught me to confess Jesus Christ as Lord but not how to make Him my Lord, Saviour and friend in day to day life. Without a relationship with Jesus Christ, I think we miss out on a huge part of the Christian life.

I've learned since leaving TWI to run to Jesus for everything. When life is great I run to Him with praise and thanksgiving. I run to Him with all my questions, I run to Him for healing and emotional deliverance. I run to Him when I'm hurt or I don't understand something. The worst times in my life are those times when I've felt like I can't get a hold of God.

Jesus is the Great High Priest who sympathizes with us in all our weaknesses, the one on the throne of grace where we obtain mercy and find grace to help every time we need it.

So much in here that I want to comment on. This thread truly demonstrates that VP and PFAL will always remain linked and inseperable in our minds. It is true that VP did not walk the talk. His actions damaged many and the damage is far deeper than many realize or wish to acknowledge.

One of the greatest hurts that he did to us all, and I mean ALL was his neglect in the area of our Lord Jesus Christ. This has been discussed on another thread recently so I will not revisit the topic except to say that it was IMHO a spiritual crime for him to teach us that Christ was absent, and that is all I'm going to say on that matter.

More than anything I wholeheartedly agree with you that "God is not done with us yet". We have much to give to each other and others. We were called and we did answer, but then we got sidetracked, some were forced off the road others just got off before they were run over...however it happened we have all journeyed through life and ended up here at GS. Once again we have the opportunity to be with other members of the same family. We have the chance to bind each others wounds and pray for each other and it is a darn shame that so many still want to rip and tear at their brother or sister in Christ. I speak to no-one in particular but if the shoe fits...

Much has been shared here on this thread, some of it has helped cleanse a huge wound in my own side that I have allowed to both bleed at times and fester at others for 20 years this year. But now my own salty tears are cleaning it out so that it can be bound up to heal. This deliverance came from the pain and knowledge and sharing of someone on this thread. Had they not spoken for sake of fear or persecution...who knows how long I would have waited to hear those words from a sister? I thank God that He gave her the strength, voice and love to share here despite the battering that she took when she did. Despite all of that she answered God's call and spoke...

I understand where everyone is coming from...points from both sides have merit...but please can we not stop fighting amongst ourselves and start reaching out our hands to help others? Please can we not stop thinking only of ourselves and share so that others may find their way out of the darkness? Perhaps I am speaking to a wall but maybe someone can hear me on the other side?

Thank you CatCup, Rascal, Dooj, Dot Matrix, WhiteDove, Oldiesman, T-Bone, WordWolf, Exie, Words&Works and everyone else that has posted on the thread, and yes I know it is not my thread and no I'm not God, you have all contributed to a wonderful piece of work but could we please just let it end in a peaceful way?

If this plea offends someone...well...tough live with it.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Eyesopen

[Dot Matrix]

I personally think that most of what was taught in PFAL is doctrinally suspect. The most important thing IMO to learn from the Bible is how have a relationship with God, the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Sprit. [b]PFAL taught me to confess Jesus Christ as Lord but not how to make Him my Lord[/b], Saviour and friend in day to day life. Without a relationship with Jesus Christ, I think we miss out on a huge part of the Christian life.

Boy, is that ever true

[doojable]

Sometimes it's not about being a Pharisee... it's about making sure that you're not wrong.

I have no idea what has transpired in WhiteDove's life and I won't pretend to. The following does not pertain to him:

Someone I've known for a long time reverts to logic and fact on a regular basis. The reason? (And this is the reason HE gives for the way he is.) When he was in first grade, he was answering a question in class and the teacher said, "Be quiet! You don't know what you're talking about!" The end result is that this person does whatever he can to be "right" - including bullying someone with logic.

We all have wounds that we deal with...

[Dot Matrix]

Don't fret Eyes,

We do this about once a year.