Catcup and I had a PM conversation that I have been given permission to share here in the forums. She is about to get real busy - so please remember that I have no training in her field and I cannot answer for her at all.
Here is my question:
When I was in college a friend of mine - a very, very, very quiet and meek girl - was raped in the lobby of her apt building. Within months she became HIGHLY promiscuous! I mean - she was screwing anyone she could find. It was almost like she had said to herself, "Okay, THIS time I get to choose!"
Here is her answer:
Although I do not have the time to get involved on a thread regarding this subject, you may post this if you want to, as long as my statements are posted in their entirety because context is essential to understanding. This information is part of my education and training in counseling women and men who have been victims of rape.
In response to your question regarding the behavior of the woman you knew, it's not necessarily that they say to themselves "Okay, this time I get to choose!"
Rape gets to the core of your very being and deeply affects your self-image. In response to the assault, many victims blame themselves for what occured, and are at risk to begin to think they contributed to the situation somehow by their behavior or the way they dressed. Was my makeup too heavy? Was my skirt to short? Was my shirt to lowcut? Were my jeans too tight? Was my walk too suggestive? They begin to minutely pick themselves apart all on their own.
Add to that, the offender many times truly believes the woman "wanted it," and will finish up by telling her so, anlong with threats that if she goes to the police, either (a.) No one will believe her, or (b.) "I know where you [or your loved one lives, works, shops, goes to school, etc.] and I will and xyz..."
Especially if the attacker is someone she knows, at this time any power or authority the perpetrator possesses which he can use to intimidate her will be employed.
The immediate almost universal response afterward is to feel absolutely filthy, and an overpowering, almost irresistable need to get clean causes many victims to head to the shower. It is very common for these people to wash themselves repeatedly for hours, even scrubbing themselves to the point they bleed, if they aren't bleeding already. I will repeat: The urge to do this is so overpowering after a rape, that this is part of the reason rape is difficult to prosecute. The evidence is easily washed away.
That is why the advice given to women in self-defense classes and such is that if you are raped, DO NOT SHOWER OR CHANGE YOUR CLOTHES. CALL 911 AND WAIT FOR THEM TO ARRIVE. It is hard enough to get people who are raped by strangers to do this. Unfortunately, people who are raped by someone they know, are even more likely to doubt themselves, and delay filing a report. and increase the likelihood that any evidence is lost by waiting days, weeks, months, or even years to say anything, because they so heavily blame themselves.
Another part of the way people respond to rape, is how rape victims have been routinely treated. Even the questioning by the police officers who are attempting to help you, will by its very nature be intrusive, which at this time adds to the trauma, and even the way it is done can unfortunately reflect personal attitudes of the interviewer(even though they are supposed to not allow that to happen), which can be either good or bad. That can help or hurt the victim. Questions are asked about the type of clothing worn, the activities just prior and immediately after the incident, and this adds to the victim's trauma.
In the courtroom, the typical courtroom defense tactic is, and always has been, to attack the victim's character. Why? Because they know that is the tactic that works and is the most likely to get their client off the hook, which is their job. Every bit of dirt about your past, no matter how distant and unrelated, is fair game for an attorney to dig up and throw out into the public domain. So, typically, traumatized rape victims don't want their lives on display like that. The trauma of retelling the event is like being raped all over again, this time, in public. And then on cross examination, it's even worse.
Knowing the gauntlet they have to run through in order to prosecute the crime, many remain silent and limp on with their lives. Many times, not only do they not prosecute the crime, but they also don't tell anyone. It is a very personal, embarassing crime, which many feel a great deal of shame about, for all the reasons I have outlined. As a result, they also do not get counseling. Consequently, the damage to their self-image is severe, even to someone who was well-adjusted to begin with. However, those who have been victims of any kind of violent crime previously, or previously abused in any way, or have any other mental health issues, can fall deeper into depression and even develop psychosis. It is quite common for ANY rape victim, no matter what their background, to at this time develop post traumatic stress disorder.
Also common, is due to the blow to self-image, depression, and identity confusion, many women see society as having branded them as "damaged goods" because of their experience, and lose and begin to develop self-destructive behaviors, like the promiscuity you mention. It's not that they say "Hey, I'm going to choose now." It is the fact that they, as a result of the trauma, believe they are the scum they've been told they are, develop a self-loathing, and begin to engage is self-destructive behavior like promiscuity. Others develop other self-destructive behaviors like self-mutilation. Others drink heavily or abuse drugs. Some turn to food and suddenly will gain 100 or more pounds, in an effor to destroy a once-beautiful body they feel betrayed them. The subconscious belief is, the fat will insulate them from another attack, because now they will be repulsive. Others turn to criminal behavior such as shoplifting. This is all self-loathing behavior.
So that is all I have time for at the moment.
Yes - there are "Millions now smoking!!!!!!!!!!"
Here's a question for you Reverend Lingo:
How are we going to treat them when they come to us in their pain? Will we tell them to "Just get over it?" "Prove it?" "Go take a pill?"
i don't think so oldies. otherwise he wouldn't have had to get me against my will, not to mention a million other things
That makes sense.
I was with Dr. and Mrs. Wierwille for a month, back in June of 1984 on a 6,000 mile motorcycle trip. This was about a year before his death. At that time, he had his glass eye; he seemed calm and serene, not having such evil power described here. Perhaps he was at a point in his life, closing in on his death, when he repented and asked God for forgiveness. I don't know. All I know is, this is the Victor Paul Wierwille I experienced and remember. I'm sorry some folks experienced a disgusting part of him.
Oldies, you've come a long ways to admit these things! I think that's a big deal, brother! I don't expect anyone to shelve any good experiences they've had…just be willing to consider the other side of things as well…a realistic picture is one that takes in all the details…warts and all.
Other than VP the only person I kind of followed and regarded highly was Jerry Garcia. I first saw the Dead at closing week at Fillmore west in '71. There were 5 shows that week, 6 counting audition night. It was a big deal; they even made a movie about it. Bill Graham had to close the place for some reason. Rumors were that a Howard Johnson's would be built on that location. But every group on all 5 nights was a San Francisco bay area group. The Dead played on Friday night. Me and the guy I went to all the shows with got in line early every day. So when we got inside the place we got very close to the front.
There was nobody in SF rock and roll who had more celebrity status than Jerry G. Even though there were shows on Saturday and Sunday nights with arguably more nationally known groups (Santana, CCR) there were more people at the Dead, at least it sure seemed like it. There was this electricity in the air for the Dead that wasn't there for the other shows.
So we get inside and Jerry's on stage tuning up his pedal steel guitar, which he played for the New Riders and this other country rock band, both of which opened for the dead. Several people upon seeing him crammed up to where he was and talked his ear off until he reproved them for their rudeness. But all night practically (8 hours) he was on stage less than 10 feet from me. Others idolized him. But he struck me as strangely ordinary. He seemed perfectly at ease with his celebrity, more so than any other celebrity I ever saw up close; like he truly thought it was no big deal.
Yes, as I said, there was electricity in the air that centered around him, but he himself seemed to be separate from it. I've heard rumors from people in STL (non TWI) that the Dead were all devil worshippers who drink blood, but Socks once posted that he never heard that from VP or anyone connected with Way prod. Their bass player recently wrote an autobiography which included much candid info about the band's drug use and the foolishness of it but nothing about devil worship.
Yet, there was definitely a contact high or something that hovered over the scene every time I saw them (7 times, once post Jerry) but that didn't make them evil. I saw VP up close 3 times, once on stage at a ROA, once between teachings at a day in the word, and once when he made a surprise visit to the House of His Healing presence. He seemed ordinary to me all three times. I was in awe of him because he was who he was, but no evil power as far as I could tell.
Nice signature T-Bone... had it long? hey folks, read T-Bone's signature...
Thanks, Tom. I changed it a few weeks ago…You or anyone else is welcome to use it…as long as you make a donation to my Corps Sponsorship, of course.
That was a nice story about Jerry Garcia and your experiences watching him play at the Fillmore (I saw him myself about 4 times )...but I fail to see any legitimate comaparisons whatsoever....From what I gather, you are saying that you were in the presense of both of them and failed to detect any evil...So what?
Jerry was honest about who he was and what he believed...Wierwille was not.
I spent a fair amount of time with Wierwille and I never detected any evil from him either...So what? A pattern has emerged through numerous testamonies that indicate otherwise. Wierwille was not stupid...he was a master conman who knew how to "play people"...he knew how to present himself as a "common guy" and also how to act like a modern day Moses on stage...I am convinced that he was always acting...He was always presenting himself in a calculated manner that he thought would achieve his goals...He was a grifter.
and as a side note, I find it disrespectful to Jerry Garcia to compare him to the cornfield preacher in any way, shape or form...
WHITE DOVE, OLDIES (AND OTHER VEEPEE WORSHIPERS): CURRENT TWI LEADERSHIP DOES NOT DENY THESE THINGS HAPPENED, WHY DO YOU?
I walked away from TWI after the first couple of hints of something not being right. I didn't even know of all of the sexual predator stuff, there were just some things that I knew and heard (from the top leadership) that "didn't sit right" with me. I guess you could say it was that still small voice, my conscience, whatever.
Years go by (about 20). In all that time I still carried the bogus thought of "TWI is still the best thing going"... "they've got a better handle on THE TRUTH than anyone else"... why would I go anywhere else for my "Christian" learning? Of course, these thoughts had been drilled into my brain during all of the years I was a "faithful follower of the way"...
Then one day I thought "hmmm, maybe I'll see if there's a twig around here somewhere. maybe things have changed"... I googled... and lo and behold I get all of this information coming at me about veepee and LCM... I get all of this information coming at me about people being treated like chattel, people suffering all sorts of mental, verbal and physical and sexual abuse...
All sorts of things... nothing at all like what I remembered from my days as an "innie"... BUT ...a lot like I thought things could have progressed to in my worst and wildest imagination.
I was really, really shocked. I didn't want to think that these things could have happened. How could they? ...not to MY ministry!
Even though I'd left, those feelings were still strong because of the amount of my life I had invested...
I DID NOT WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE OR EVEN CONSIDER THAT SOMETHING I HAD GIVEN MY LIFE TO FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS COULD BE SO WRONG... BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN THAT I WAS WRONG FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS, THAT WOULD MEAN (in my mind) THAT I'D HAVE TO ADMIT THAT 'I WAS DUPED'...
And I certainly didn't want to admit that... not me.
SO... I thought, let me ask someone in current TWI leadership about these things. I need to know if there's any truth to any of these things I've heard.
Just like you White Dove, Oldies and the rest of you veepee apologists... I DIDN'T WANT TO BELIEVE OR THINK THAT THINGS COULD HAVE GOTTEN SO BAD.
So... I went to current TWI leadership, pretty high up in the old tree I'd think, folks that had been around since the early to mid seventies... and you know what? When I presented to them all of the things I'd heard about: veepee & LCM and all of the sex stuff, plagiarism, M&A, POP, etc ... everything I could think of... one by one I sat with them and asked "what about this?" and then "what about this?" and then "what about this?"
And they answered.
To each one of the things that I brought up they answered... and the answer was always "YES. That happened." THEY NEVER DENIED IT. They didn't like that it had happened but they didn't deny it. They rationalized their 'staying in' with "we're all human and we all make mistakes, just look at the Catholic Church" type of responses when I'd ask them "how can you still be involved in TWI?"
Their position was (and is) that they're remaining loyal to 'the ministry that taught them the Word' and that they were going to try to continue to do the best they can.
That's their choice. I don't understand it, or see any logic in it, but that's their choice...
But the important thing (to me) is that THEY DO NOT DENY that these things happened. Current TWI leadership... they DO NOT DENY that these things happened.
Current TWI leadership does not deny that these things happened yet you folks do (White Dove, Oldiesman, etal)... and you continue to discount the lives and hearts of those that were hurt, abused and molested. That's insane...
YOU ARE NOT 'OUT' OF TWI YET WHITE DOVE, OLDIES, ETC
Tom you do not know me from John Doe
DON'T ASSUME THAT YOU DO!
IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL ALL BETTER TO PLACE ME IN A BOX AND LABEL IT ALL NEAT AND TIDY VPW APOLOGIST OR WIERWILLE WORSHIPER THEN HAVE AT IT .THAT MAKES YOU LESS INTELLIGENT THAN ONE OF YOUR SNOW CONES. IT ALSO PROVES THAT YOU CAN'T READ OR REFUSE TO READ. FOR YEARS I HAVE CONSISTENTLY ADDRESSED THIS MISNOMER
I KNOW IT MUST BE DISCOMFORTING TO YOU WHEN YOU CAN NOT ONLY SEE GUILTY WHEN SPEAKING ABOUT THE WAY. I ON THE OTHER HAND PREFER TO TAKE EACH ACCOUNT ON A ONE BY ONE BASIS AND THINK, CONSIDER EACH POINT I KNOW IT CAN BE A TOUGH JOB AND ONE DOES HAVE TO GASP..... THINK A LITTLE .....BUT THINKING IS A GOOD THING..... REALLY
You also failed to read anywhere on this thread or others where I ever denied anything concerning this subject yet you consistently claim I have.. I have on the other hand said more times than I care to that I have insufficient data, information, facts to render a judgment either way. I also have gone out of my way to point out that there is certainly a possibility that these accounts could be true. I guess you missed that as well. I don't accept unprovable information as truth plain and simple whatever the subject. and while your lecturing me on my morality consider this:
I left the way on my own choice when it was clear that the direction was not going well
It was a simple Biblical choice, was it scriptural or not?
Not because I had no other choice as some who would most likely still be there in their fog had they not been pushed out.
I did not wait around because I had to prepare, or because I needed to build a career I did not hang around for some silly job or status. I did not hang around and promote evil while admitting that I knew it was wrong, but still did it anyway. I did not stay around only until evil visited my door one day and forced me to leave, or because someone finally melted my poor little face one to many times. A monkey could do that that's self preservation not a conscious Biblical choice. It amazes me that these people who consciously did evil , refered to us as possessed, gangrene or worse and admittedly did things contrary to scripture now seem to have some great moral judgment ability when it comes to others.
Oldies, you've come a long ways to admit these things! I think that's a big deal, brother! I don't expect anyone to shelve any good experiences they've had…just be willing to consider the other side of things as well…a realistic picture is one that takes in all the details…warts and all.
Thanks T-Bone. Yes, I have changed my position from years ago, and all without one-on-one, human contact!
Anonymous internet cyber characters are powerful! :D
White Dove. I only "know" you from your posts. That's the White Dove I speak to. That's the White Dove that continues to deny.
Use the big fonts, use the different colors... it doesn't change the fact that you deny what these folks have been through and what harm veepee and TWI have done.
You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine... I just thought I'd point out to you (in that post) that current TWI leadership doesn't deny that these things happened and then ask you "why do you?"...
White Dove. I only "know" you from your posts. That's the White Dove I speak to. That's the White Dove that continues to deny.
Use the big fonts, use the different colors... it doesn't change the fact that you deny what these folks have been through and what harm veepee and TWI have done.
You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine... I just thought I'd point out to you (in that post) that current TWI leadership doesn't deny that these things happened and then ask you "why do you?"...
Tom here is a excerpt from my post to Garth on pg 25 I know you seem to be having a problem with your glasses and seeing and all.so I found it for you. I think I missed the deny part there
Excuse me but I have NEVER asked or as you put it hammered anyone for proof just stated that I did not have it personally, and yes I have heard accounts by former disgruntled exwayfers who have bones to pick that do not wash. I have no problem with believing that VPW could have done any of these things just no proof if and I when that happens that will be a different day. As it stands today insufficient data to decide......... Bottom line I trust no one without hard cold facts, I would not trust an account by my own sister without it. I might like to support it ,but that's the difference between us you are willing to accept things on emotion I'm not, family, friends is irrelevant, facts ,proof are not. (I might trust my dog as he is not human. Maybe.) I'm done trusting people and their words on emotion been there done that it did not work, People lie! OR at best misspeak. I heard for better for worse once it was a lie! I heard we love you once . It was a lie! . I'm darn sure not trusting people that have predisposed attitude about what they are making a case against .
First off Dove, please.... I have seen a real effort on behalf of several of the posters to present this information in a non antagonistic way...honest to God, trying hard to give you and others the benefit of the doubt. Trying to respectfully present their pov. Many of your responses have been spitefull and uncalled for.
Do you really want to know what I think? Or is it just another chance for you to smack me down?
White Dove, my eyes are working just fine. You refuse to believe that these things happened. (and if you think that little of your sister, that's very sad)
Here are a couple of definitions of "DENY" (the two that describe your behavior):
2. to refuse to agree or accede to
5. to refuse to recognize or acknowledge; disown; disavow; repudiate
Here are some definitions of "DENIAL" (the ones that apply to you):
1. an assertion that something said, believed, alleged, etc., is false
3. disbelief in the existence or reality of a thing.
4. the refusal to satisfy a claim, request, desire, etc., or the refusal of a person making it.
5. refusal to recognize or acknowledge; a disowning or disavowal
6. Law. refusal to acknowledge the validity of a claim, suit, or the like; a plea that denies allegations of fact in an adversary's plea
8. Psychology. an unconscious defense mechanism used to reduce anxiety by denying thoughts, feelings, or facts that are consciously intolerable.
Definitions from dictionary.com
Now, back to my question: Current TWI leadership does not deny that these things happened. Why do you?
Just curious WD, what exactly are you looking for as "proof"?
Semen samples maybe? Video tape? Tokins of virginity?
Obviously the likelyhood of any such "hard" evidence showing up at this late date is beyond remote,
so I guess you're safe in your stalwart stance. Kudos for your bravery!
Nevermind that the unstated reply to the victims here is that THEY"RE LYING. Nah, just ignore 'em. After all, where's the DNA tests, the fingernail scrapings, and soiled underwear?
Tom here is a excerpt from my post to Garth on pg 25 I know you seem to be having a problem with your glasses and seeing and all.so I found it for you. I think I missed the deny part there
Excuse me but I have NEVER asked or as you put it hammered anyone for proof just stated that I did not have it personally, and yes I have heard accounts by former disgruntled exwayfers who have bones to pick that do not wash. I have no problem with believing that VPW could have done any of these things just no proof if and I when that happens that will be a different day. As it stands today insufficient data to decide......... Bottom line I trust no one without hard cold facts, I would not trust an account by my own sister without it. I might like to support it ,but that's the difference between us you are willing to accept things on emotion I'm not, family, friends is irrelevant, facts ,proof are not. (I might trust my dog as he is not human. Maybe.) I'm done trusting people and their words on emotion been there done that it did not work, People lie! OR at best misspeak. I heard for better for worse once it was a lie! I heard we love you once . It was a lie! . I'm darn sure not trusting people that have predisposed attitude about what they are making a case against .
Allow me to use your own argument against you White Dove: Do you believe in God? Where's your proof?
The type of proof you're asking for here, from these folks... Where is it?
That is what I find troubling. The inferance that the women here ....the women on juedes` site, the women that son of the master ministered to monthly....John Lynn, Ralph D, so many many ALL have lied because the accounts don`t fit with what one wishes to believe :(
I think that fear is what generates the meanness ....fear of finding out that we were wrong.
First off Dove, please.... I have seen a real effort on behalf of several of the posters to present this information in a non antagonistic way...honest to God, trying hard to give you and others the benefit of the doubt. Trying to respectfully present their pov. Many of your responses have been spitefull and uncalled for.
Do you really want to know what I think? Or is it just another chance for you to smack me down?
Really do you think posting that I am afraid was respectful?
Dove, I can only assume. It was merely a point to consider. There are only so many reasons why someone would turn a blind eye and hard heart to the testimony that has been presented.
It was the least viscious motive that I could come up with to account for you uncharicteristic behavior.
White Dove, my eyes are working just fine. You refuse to believe that these things happened. (and if you think that little of your sister, that's very sad)
Here are a couple of definitions of "DENY" (the two that describe your behavior):
2. to refuse to agree or accede to
5. to refuse to recognize or acknowledge; disown; disavow; repudiate
Here are some definitions of "DENIAL" (the ones that apply to you):
1. an assertion that something said, believed, alleged, etc., is false
3. disbelief in the existence or reality of a thing.
4. the refusal to satisfy a claim, request, desire, etc., or the refusal of a person making it.
5. refusal to recognize or acknowledge; a disowning or disavowal
6. Law. refusal to acknowledge the validity of a claim, suit, or the like; a plea that denies allegations of fact in an adversary's plea
8. Psychology. an unconscious defense mechanism used to reduce anxiety by denying thoughts, feelings, or facts that are consciously intolerable.
Definitions from dictionary.com
Now, back to my question: Current TWI leadership does not deny that these things happened. Why do you?
Yeah Tom your definition is concerning the word deny Deny what? Opinion or truth there is a difference
Yes you are right by your definition I do deny opinion to deny Truth is well another mattter.
truth add another qualifier to the mix
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
NO I don't deny a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like only information that is anoymous posted over a faceless internet or that is not proven according to the definition of truth. In other Words OPINION
Dove, I can only assume. It was merely a point to consider. There are only so many reasons why someone would turn a blind eye and hard heart to the testimony that has been presented.
It was the least viscious motive that I could come up with to account for you uncharicteristic behavior.
BS not true you could have asked rather than ASSUME or you just could have really read the gazillions of posts where in detail I have disclosed my reasons.
Dove, your reasons appear to me to be excuses to shut information and testimony out.
Your inability to consider the facts, or to evaluate the information... ...and worse yet your willingness to treat the people presenting the facts with nastiness is caused by something...shrug
It could be arrogance and not wanting to be wrong. It could be due to fear and not wanting to be wrong....either way, the implications of wierwille being a man of the flesh, a false prophet are to staggering for you to embrace....so you seem to need to make everyone willing to present information contrary to that which you must believe with callous disregard and at times down right cruelty.
This behavior ....this willingness to insult and demean, to deliberately be hurtfull are not the actions of a Christian....period
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
T-Bone
Well said, Groucho !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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doojable
Grouch has such a way with words!
Catcup and I had a PM conversation that I have been given permission to share here in the forums. She is about to get real busy - so please remember that I have no training in her field and I cannot answer for her at all.
Here is my question:
When I was in college a friend of mine - a very, very, very quiet and meek girl - was raped in the lobby of her apt building. Within months she became HIGHLY promiscuous! I mean - she was screwing anyone she could find. It was almost like she had said to herself, "Okay, THIS time I get to choose!"
Here is her answer:
Although I do not have the time to get involved on a thread regarding this subject, you may post this if you want to, as long as my statements are posted in their entirety because context is essential to understanding. This information is part of my education and training in counseling women and men who have been victims of rape.
In response to your question regarding the behavior of the woman you knew, it's not necessarily that they say to themselves "Okay, this time I get to choose!"
Rape gets to the core of your very being and deeply affects your self-image. In response to the assault, many victims blame themselves for what occured, and are at risk to begin to think they contributed to the situation somehow by their behavior or the way they dressed. Was my makeup too heavy? Was my skirt to short? Was my shirt to lowcut? Were my jeans too tight? Was my walk too suggestive? They begin to minutely pick themselves apart all on their own.
Add to that, the offender many times truly believes the woman "wanted it," and will finish up by telling her so, anlong with threats that if she goes to the police, either (a.) No one will believe her, or (b.) "I know where you [or your loved one lives, works, shops, goes to school, etc.] and I will and xyz..."
Especially if the attacker is someone she knows, at this time any power or authority the perpetrator possesses which he can use to intimidate her will be employed.
The immediate almost universal response afterward is to feel absolutely filthy, and an overpowering, almost irresistable need to get clean causes many victims to head to the shower. It is very common for these people to wash themselves repeatedly for hours, even scrubbing themselves to the point they bleed, if they aren't bleeding already. I will repeat: The urge to do this is so overpowering after a rape, that this is part of the reason rape is difficult to prosecute. The evidence is easily washed away.
That is why the advice given to women in self-defense classes and such is that if you are raped, DO NOT SHOWER OR CHANGE YOUR CLOTHES. CALL 911 AND WAIT FOR THEM TO ARRIVE. It is hard enough to get people who are raped by strangers to do this. Unfortunately, people who are raped by someone they know, are even more likely to doubt themselves, and delay filing a report. and increase the likelihood that any evidence is lost by waiting days, weeks, months, or even years to say anything, because they so heavily blame themselves.
Another part of the way people respond to rape, is how rape victims have been routinely treated. Even the questioning by the police officers who are attempting to help you, will by its very nature be intrusive, which at this time adds to the trauma, and even the way it is done can unfortunately reflect personal attitudes of the interviewer(even though they are supposed to not allow that to happen), which can be either good or bad. That can help or hurt the victim. Questions are asked about the type of clothing worn, the activities just prior and immediately after the incident, and this adds to the victim's trauma.
In the courtroom, the typical courtroom defense tactic is, and always has been, to attack the victim's character. Why? Because they know that is the tactic that works and is the most likely to get their client off the hook, which is their job. Every bit of dirt about your past, no matter how distant and unrelated, is fair game for an attorney to dig up and throw out into the public domain. So, typically, traumatized rape victims don't want their lives on display like that. The trauma of retelling the event is like being raped all over again, this time, in public. And then on cross examination, it's even worse.
Knowing the gauntlet they have to run through in order to prosecute the crime, many remain silent and limp on with their lives. Many times, not only do they not prosecute the crime, but they also don't tell anyone. It is a very personal, embarassing crime, which many feel a great deal of shame about, for all the reasons I have outlined. As a result, they also do not get counseling. Consequently, the damage to their self-image is severe, even to someone who was well-adjusted to begin with. However, those who have been victims of any kind of violent crime previously, or previously abused in any way, or have any other mental health issues, can fall deeper into depression and even develop psychosis. It is quite common for ANY rape victim, no matter what their background, to at this time develop post traumatic stress disorder.
Also common, is due to the blow to self-image, depression, and identity confusion, many women see society as having branded them as "damaged goods" because of their experience, and lose and begin to develop self-destructive behaviors, like the promiscuity you mention. It's not that they say "Hey, I'm going to choose now." It is the fact that they, as a result of the trauma, believe they are the scum they've been told they are, develop a self-loathing, and begin to engage is self-destructive behavior like promiscuity. Others develop other self-destructive behaviors like self-mutilation. Others drink heavily or abuse drugs. Some turn to food and suddenly will gain 100 or more pounds, in an effor to destroy a once-beautiful body they feel betrayed them. The subconscious belief is, the fat will insulate them from another attack, because now they will be repulsive. Others turn to criminal behavior such as shoplifting. This is all self-loathing behavior.
So that is all I have time for at the moment.
Yes - there are "Millions now smoking!!!!!!!!!!"
Here's a question for you Reverend Lingo:
How are we going to treat them when they come to us in their pain? Will we tell them to "Just get over it?" "Prove it?" "Go take a pill?"
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Tom Strange
Nice signature T-Bone... had it long? hey folks, read T-Bone's signature...
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T-Bone
Oldies, you've come a long ways to admit these things! I think that's a big deal, brother! I don't expect anyone to shelve any good experiences they've had…just be willing to consider the other side of things as well…a realistic picture is one that takes in all the details…warts and all.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...the days not over yet.
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johniam
quote: There was a power and it wasn't godly.
Other than VP the only person I kind of followed and regarded highly was Jerry Garcia. I first saw the Dead at closing week at Fillmore west in '71. There were 5 shows that week, 6 counting audition night. It was a big deal; they even made a movie about it. Bill Graham had to close the place for some reason. Rumors were that a Howard Johnson's would be built on that location. But every group on all 5 nights was a San Francisco bay area group. The Dead played on Friday night. Me and the guy I went to all the shows with got in line early every day. So when we got inside the place we got very close to the front.
There was nobody in SF rock and roll who had more celebrity status than Jerry G. Even though there were shows on Saturday and Sunday nights with arguably more nationally known groups (Santana, CCR) there were more people at the Dead, at least it sure seemed like it. There was this electricity in the air for the Dead that wasn't there for the other shows.
So we get inside and Jerry's on stage tuning up his pedal steel guitar, which he played for the New Riders and this other country rock band, both of which opened for the dead. Several people upon seeing him crammed up to where he was and talked his ear off until he reproved them for their rudeness. But all night practically (8 hours) he was on stage less than 10 feet from me. Others idolized him. But he struck me as strangely ordinary. He seemed perfectly at ease with his celebrity, more so than any other celebrity I ever saw up close; like he truly thought it was no big deal.
Yes, as I said, there was electricity in the air that centered around him, but he himself seemed to be separate from it. I've heard rumors from people in STL (non TWI) that the Dead were all devil worshippers who drink blood, but Socks once posted that he never heard that from VP or anyone connected with Way prod. Their bass player recently wrote an autobiography which included much candid info about the band's drug use and the foolishness of it but nothing about devil worship.
Yet, there was definitely a contact high or something that hovered over the scene every time I saw them (7 times, once post Jerry) but that didn't make them evil. I saw VP up close 3 times, once on stage at a ROA, once between teachings at a day in the word, and once when he made a surprise visit to the House of His Healing presence. He seemed ordinary to me all three times. I was in awe of him because he was who he was, but no evil power as far as I could tell.
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T-Bone
Thanks, Tom. I changed it a few weeks ago…You or anyone else is welcome to use it…as long as you make a donation to my Corps Sponsorship, of course.
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GrouchoMarxJr
That was a nice story about Jerry Garcia and your experiences watching him play at the Fillmore (I saw him myself about 4 times
)...but I fail to see any legitimate comaparisons whatsoever....From what I gather, you are saying that you were in the presense of both of them and failed to detect any evil...So what?
Jerry was honest about who he was and what he believed...Wierwille was not.
I spent a fair amount of time with Wierwille and I never detected any evil from him either...So what? A pattern has emerged through numerous testamonies that indicate otherwise. Wierwille was not stupid...he was a master conman who knew how to "play people"...he knew how to present himself as a "common guy" and also how to act like a modern day Moses on stage...I am convinced that he was always acting...He was always presenting himself in a calculated manner that he thought would achieve his goals...He was a grifter.
and as a side note, I find it disrespectful to Jerry Garcia to compare him to the cornfield preacher in any way, shape or form...
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WhiteDove
quote name='Tom Strange'
WHITE DOVE, OLDIES (AND OTHER VEEPEE WORSHIPERS): CURRENT TWI LEADERSHIP DOES NOT DENY THESE THINGS HAPPENED, WHY DO YOU?
I walked away from TWI after the first couple of hints of something not being right. I didn't even know of all of the sexual predator stuff, there were just some things that I knew and heard (from the top leadership) that "didn't sit right" with me. I guess you could say it was that still small voice, my conscience, whatever.
Years go by (about 20). In all that time I still carried the bogus thought of "TWI is still the best thing going"... "they've got a better handle on THE TRUTH than anyone else"... why would I go anywhere else for my "Christian" learning? Of course, these thoughts had been drilled into my brain during all of the years I was a "faithful follower of the way"...
Then one day I thought "hmmm, maybe I'll see if there's a twig around here somewhere. maybe things have changed"... I googled... and lo and behold I get all of this information coming at me about veepee and LCM... I get all of this information coming at me about people being treated like chattel, people suffering all sorts of mental, verbal and physical and sexual abuse...
All sorts of things... nothing at all like what I remembered from my days as an "innie"... BUT ...a lot like I thought things could have progressed to in my worst and wildest imagination.
I was really, really shocked. I didn't want to think that these things could have happened. How could they? ...not to MY ministry!
Even though I'd left, those feelings were still strong because of the amount of my life I had invested...
I DID NOT WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE OR EVEN CONSIDER THAT SOMETHING I HAD GIVEN MY LIFE TO FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS COULD BE SO WRONG... BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN THAT I WAS WRONG FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS, THAT WOULD MEAN (in my mind) THAT I'D HAVE TO ADMIT THAT 'I WAS DUPED'...
And I certainly didn't want to admit that... not me.
SO... I thought, let me ask someone in current TWI leadership about these things. I need to know if there's any truth to any of these things I've heard.
Just like you White Dove, Oldies and the rest of you veepee apologists... I DIDN'T WANT TO BELIEVE OR THINK THAT THINGS COULD HAVE GOTTEN SO BAD.
So... I went to current TWI leadership, pretty high up in the old tree I'd think, folks that had been around since the early to mid seventies... and you know what? When I presented to them all of the things I'd heard about: veepee & LCM and all of the sex stuff, plagiarism, M&A, POP, etc ... everything I could think of... one by one I sat with them and asked "what about this?" and then "what about this?" and then "what about this?"
And they answered.
To each one of the things that I brought up they answered... and the answer was always "YES. That happened." THEY NEVER DENIED IT. They didn't like that it had happened but they didn't deny it. They rationalized their 'staying in' with "we're all human and we all make mistakes, just look at the Catholic Church" type of responses when I'd ask them "how can you still be involved in TWI?"
Their position was (and is) that they're remaining loyal to 'the ministry that taught them the Word' and that they were going to try to continue to do the best they can.
That's their choice. I don't understand it, or see any logic in it, but that's their choice...
But the important thing (to me) is that THEY DO NOT DENY that these things happened. Current TWI leadership... they DO NOT DENY that these things happened.
Current TWI leadership does not deny that these things happened yet you folks do (White Dove, Oldiesman, etal)... and you continue to discount the lives and hearts of those that were hurt, abused and molested. That's insane...
YOU ARE NOT 'OUT' OF TWI YET WHITE DOVE, OLDIES, ETC
Tom you do not know me from John Doe
DON'T ASSUME THAT YOU DO!
IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL ALL BETTER TO PLACE ME IN A BOX AND LABEL IT ALL NEAT AND TIDY VPW APOLOGIST OR WIERWILLE WORSHIPER THEN HAVE AT IT .THAT MAKES YOU LESS INTELLIGENT THAN ONE OF YOUR SNOW CONES. IT ALSO PROVES THAT YOU CAN'T READ OR REFUSE TO READ. FOR YEARS I HAVE CONSISTENTLY ADDRESSED THIS MISNOMER
I KNOW IT MUST BE DISCOMFORTING TO YOU WHEN YOU CAN NOT ONLY SEE GUILTY WHEN SPEAKING ABOUT THE WAY. I ON THE OTHER HAND PREFER TO TAKE EACH ACCOUNT ON A ONE BY ONE BASIS AND THINK, CONSIDER EACH POINT I KNOW IT CAN BE A TOUGH JOB AND ONE DOES HAVE TO GASP..... THINK A LITTLE .....BUT THINKING IS A GOOD THING..... REALLY
You also failed to read anywhere on this thread or others where I ever denied anything concerning this subject yet you consistently claim I have.. I have on the other hand said more times than I care to that I have insufficient data, information, facts to render a judgment either way. I also have gone out of my way to point out that there is certainly a possibility that these accounts could be true. I guess you missed that as well. I don't accept unprovable information as truth plain and simple whatever the subject. and while your lecturing me on my morality consider this:
I left the way on my own choice when it was clear that the direction was not going well
It was a simple Biblical choice, was it scriptural or not?
Not because I had no other choice as some who would most likely still be there in their fog had they not been pushed out.
I did not wait around because I had to prepare, or because I needed to build a career I did not hang around for some silly job or status. I did not hang around and promote evil while admitting that I knew it was wrong, but still did it anyway. I did not stay around only until evil visited my door one day and forced me to leave, or because someone finally melted my poor little face one to many times. A monkey could do that that's self preservation not a conscious Biblical choice. It amazes me that these people who consciously did evil , refered to us as possessed, gangrene or worse and admittedly did things contrary to scripture now seem to have some great moral judgment ability when it comes to others.
I stood on the truth that I knew then
I'll do the same today to the best of my ability.
It's my life and I am accountable for it
Not you or your judgment of me.
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oldiesman
Thanks T-Bone. Yes, I have changed my position from years ago, and all without one-on-one, human contact!
Anonymous internet cyber characters are powerful! :D
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Tom Strange
White Dove. I only "know" you from your posts. That's the White Dove I speak to. That's the White Dove that continues to deny.
Use the big fonts, use the different colors... it doesn't change the fact that you deny what these folks have been through and what harm veepee and TWI have done.
You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine... I just thought I'd point out to you (in that post) that current TWI leadership doesn't deny that these things happened and then ask you "why do you?"...
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rascal
Afraid.
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WhiteDove
Tom here is a excerpt from my post to Garth on pg 25 I know you seem to be having a problem with your glasses and seeing and all.so I found it for you. I think I missed the deny part there
Excuse me but I have NEVER asked or as you put it hammered anyone for proof just stated that I did not have it personally, and yes I have heard accounts by former disgruntled exwayfers who have bones to pick that do not wash. I have no problem with believing that VPW could have done any of these things just no proof if and I when that happens that will be a different day. As it stands today insufficient data to decide......... Bottom line I trust no one without hard cold facts, I would not trust an account by my own sister without it. I might like to support it ,but that's the difference between us you are willing to accept things on emotion I'm not, family, friends is irrelevant, facts ,proof are not. (I might trust my dog as he is not human. Maybe.) I'm done trusting people and their words on emotion been there done that it did not work, People lie! OR at best misspeak. I heard for better for worse once it was a lie! I heard we love you once . It was a lie! . I'm darn sure not trusting people that have predisposed attitude about what they are making a case against .
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WhiteDove
Really?
What pray tell what would I possibly be afraid of?
I'm sure your just dying to extol some more of your all-knowing wisdom
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rascal
First off Dove, please.... I have seen a real effort on behalf of several of the posters to present this information in a non antagonistic way...honest to God, trying hard to give you and others the benefit of the doubt. Trying to respectfully present their pov. Many of your responses have been spitefull and uncalled for.
Do you really want to know what I think? Or is it just another chance for you to smack me down?
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Tom Strange
White Dove, my eyes are working just fine. You refuse to believe that these things happened. (and if you think that little of your sister, that's very sad)
Here are a couple of definitions of "DENY" (the two that describe your behavior):
2. to refuse to agree or accede to
5. to refuse to recognize or acknowledge; disown; disavow; repudiate
Here are some definitions of "DENIAL" (the ones that apply to you):
1. an assertion that something said, believed, alleged, etc., is false
3. disbelief in the existence or reality of a thing.
4. the refusal to satisfy a claim, request, desire, etc., or the refusal of a person making it.
5. refusal to recognize or acknowledge; a disowning or disavowal
6. Law. refusal to acknowledge the validity of a claim, suit, or the like; a plea that denies allegations of fact in an adversary's plea
8. Psychology. an unconscious defense mechanism used to reduce anxiety by denying thoughts, feelings, or facts that are consciously intolerable.
Definitions from dictionary.com
Now, back to my question: Current TWI leadership does not deny that these things happened. Why do you?
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George Aar
Just curious WD, what exactly are you looking for as "proof"?
Semen samples maybe? Video tape? Tokins of virginity?
Obviously the likelyhood of any such "hard" evidence showing up at this late date is beyond remote,
so I guess you're safe in your stalwart stance. Kudos for your bravery!
Nevermind that the unstated reply to the victims here is that THEY"RE LYING. Nah, just ignore 'em. After all, where's the DNA tests, the fingernail scrapings, and soiled underwear?
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Tom Strange
Allow me to use your own argument against you White Dove: Do you believe in God? Where's your proof?
The type of proof you're asking for here, from these folks... Where is it?
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rascal
That is what I find troubling. The inferance that the women here ....the women on juedes` site, the women that son of the master ministered to monthly....John Lynn, Ralph D, so many many ALL have lied because the accounts don`t fit with what one wishes to believe :(
I think that fear is what generates the meanness ....fear of finding out that we were wrong.
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WhiteDove
Really do you think posting that I am afraid was respectful?
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rascal
Dove, I can only assume. It was merely a point to consider. There are only so many reasons why someone would turn a blind eye and hard heart to the testimony that has been presented.
It was the least viscious motive that I could come up with to account for you uncharicteristic behavior.
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WhiteDove
Yeah Tom your definition is concerning the word deny Deny what? Opinion or truth there is a difference
Yes you are right by your definition I do deny opinion to deny Truth is well another mattter.
truth add another qualifier to the mix
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
NO I don't deny a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like only information that is anoymous posted over a faceless internet or that is not proven according to the definition of truth. In other Words OPINION
BS not true you could have asked rather than ASSUME or you just could have really read the gazillions of posts where in detail I have disclosed my reasons.
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Tom Strange
White Dove, you deny that these events took place. Go ahead and twist it around any way you want... it still all comes back to that.
Again: Do you believe in God? Where's your proof?
The type of proof you're asking for here, from these folks... Where is it?
hmmm...
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rascal
Dove, your reasons appear to me to be excuses to shut information and testimony out.
Your inability to consider the facts, or to evaluate the information... ...and worse yet your willingness to treat the people presenting the facts with nastiness is caused by something...shrug
It could be arrogance and not wanting to be wrong. It could be due to fear and not wanting to be wrong....either way, the implications of wierwille being a man of the flesh, a false prophet are to staggering for you to embrace....so you seem to need to make everyone willing to present information contrary to that which you must believe with callous disregard and at times down right cruelty.
This behavior ....this willingness to insult and demean, to deliberately be hurtfull are not the actions of a Christian....period
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