Is it possible he really thought that he could heal you from your childhood troubles? Is it possible he was making a sincere gesture?
I think it is. Maybe I'm wrong.
Are you f'ing serious guy?? Do you actually think that VPW having sex with her (in such a clearly manipulative manner) would heal her from her childhood troubles? ... Is that you 'walking by the spirit' according to the 'principles' of PFAL??
If Jesus is lord of your life, you need to get down on your knees (even if you rarely do that sort of thing) and ask God to forgive you for your comments on this thread. And that goes for oldiesman also.
I am ashamed of you and I don't even know you.
It is past my bedtime, so I am signing off for tonite. It isn't that I am ignoring anyone!!
If Jesus is lord of your life, you need to get down on your knees (even if you rarely do that sort of thing) and ask God to forgive you for your comments on this thread. And that goes for oldiesman also.
I am ashamed of you and I don't even know you.
It is past my bedtime, so I am signing off for tonite. It isn't that I am ignoring anyone!!
I never do that sort of thing and don't plan on starting now I am perfectly happy with my comments sorry if you accept things blindly I don't.
Here's another example of why I think threads like this often go south:
Let's say that you're a teenager and you go to a party. As the night progresses, without the benefit of beer and mary jane - you have a GREAT TIME. In fact, you just can't believe how good a time all the folks are having. Kids who once fought are now talking and becoming friends, girls aren't playing their teenage girl games, the guys are getting along and not being all macho and stuff.
You all go home. On the way home - four of your best friends from childhood die in a devasting car wreck. Neither drugs nor alcohol can be blamed - it was a freak accident - but devastating just the same.
Weeks later, months later, years later when you remember that night you find that even though YOU REMEMBER THE GOOD TIMES it is still hard to celebrate them because you also remember the friends you lost that night. You especially wouldn't dream of talking about how great that party was in front of the relatives of those that died.
NOW - I'm not saying that TWI was a party. I'm merely giving a much more benign scenario that has a lot less emotion tied up in it , to illustrate a point: It's normal to consider the pain that occured even though you might have learned a lot and made great friends.
Dot I could answer your questions but honestly you would not like the answers, so whats the point? just more fodder for discussion and believe me there would be discussion. I am not changing how I accept ideas into my mind for anyone, it's my mind and heart and I'll guard it as I see fit. I already explained the process a few posts back , it's what it is, it works fine for me. I'm done trusting people blindly and my life is healthier for it. You can live and function your life as you feel you need to as well. It's nothing personal everyone gets the same deal, if you want me to believe what you are selling you better have the facts to back it up.
Is not a parent responsible for a 17 year old teen? Why was she out there alone on the wow field? the age of adulthood is 18 always has been.
sex is 17 , but a parent is always responsible for their children till legal age which is 18, how could she go "out wow" without them? at 17 she could not make medical decisions for herself legaly, she coul not sign any contract "lease for apartment" she was not even responsible forher self finanacialy, a parent still carrys the full load at 17. any decision she meade would have fallen on her parents to support and be responsible for how can twi legaly allow her to go? did your parents sign papers saying they would allow it?
the law sure wouldnt.
I haven't read through this whole thread yet but I started from the end and I'm working my way backwards. I went WOW in 1975 the age of seventeen. I turned 18 in January of 1976. My parents, who were not in TWI, signed a paper giving me permission to go. As much as it broke my parents hearts to have me give up a college academic scholarship to go WOW, they gave me their permission. If I remember correctly my WOW coordinator was also 17 or barely 18 and the other 2 girls were 18. Not a lot of combined wisdom among the group. I was also sexually assaulted as a WOW, but I don't think it caused the lasting damage because it was a stranger who broke into our apt. rather than the trusted MOG. Want to blame my parents?
Not sure what your point is, are you saying that her parents were responsible for the rape? Sorry but that just doesn't cut it. Full responsibility lies with the perpertrator of the crime, which is even more despicable because he was put in a position of trust by her and her parents and then he just used her up and spit her out.
IMO if TWI truly had any integrity they would disband the organization, sell all the property, collect all the Swiss bank accounts or wherever they've stashed the loot they stole from innocent people and set up a fund to renumerate all those victims of sexual assault whose lives were derailed by having a person they trusted abuse them in such a manner. The money would not come close to restoring what was stolen from them but it would be a step in the right direction.
I'm assuming the facts you're referring to are ONLY in reference to a person saying they are an eyewitness...
[/quote
I've long given up getting an answer on that issue Doojie, the dictionary don't lie though, I do find it interesting if one of us VPW "apologists" would use a word incorrectly like that it would not slide for a second every intellectual on here would be explaining in essay form how wrong we were. But not a peep have I heard. yeah that's the level playing field here.
In 1980, I spent two about two hours having lunch with my sister in Christ ex. I spent a year in training with her at Emporia . Although I didnt know her well, my WOWs' and I were in her town and I made contact with her. It was one of my fondest memories back in those days. Ex spoke the Word to me, I spoke the Word to her and we had a great time of fellowship. I saw the five-fold ministry of a Pastor in her and perceived a pure heart and a tremendous love for God. She blessed my life with her time and really ministered to me as I was pretty worn out from "the field."
As I read this thread I learned things about her past that I did not know about.
I am appalled at the attacks on her life. I am disgusted with the lack of sympathy and the hard heartedness aimed at her.
I have learned over the years after being married for 26 years (and a faithful husband) that I or no other men have a clue how women think or how deeply sensitive they are. Many men are insensitive and think they are God's gift to women. Self absorbed men think all women "want it" because they think all women want them. What a joke.
Where is the love of God and graciousness toward ex and other women who have been so violated by someone they were supposed to be able to trust?
Ex is a wonderful woman with a heart for God. The rapes by VPW were no less than an attack by a man with devils of lust designed to steal, kill and destroy their lives thus aborting their ministerial calling not to mention their joy and happiness. Rape, what a selfish act. It is a violation of free will.
I traveled and taught bible classes in 13 states in the U.S. from 1995 to 1998. The classes were mainly former TWI folks. The classes were designed to heal and restore people. I taught approximately one class a month. In EVERY class, at least one woman came to me and told me that VPW had raped them or forced them to do something sexually. One woman even told me she was his mistress at HQ for years and VP got jealous if he saw her with another man. These were first hand accounts and these women were truly traumitized. I heard more than I ever wanted to know and still have to live with the memories of their experiences. Instead of attacking ex, we should extend a healing hand to her.
We as the body of Christ should discern the times and seasons and know that Christ is returning soon. Time spent attacking one another is time wasted and there are STILL souls in the world that need to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Why don't we rise up again and get in the spiritual fight. Lets quit arguing over doctrine and witness to someone.
Greasespot can be the most healing place for old TWI folks. Lets heal and not hurt.
You know what I learned in PFAL? To walk in the love of God AND there is a dying world that needs to be evangelized. Millions now smoking!!!!!!!!!!!!!
exxy, I admire and love you. You are a Pastor. Lets get you healed so you can feed the flock of God. SOMaster
I'm assuming the facts you're referring to are ONLY in reference to a person saying they are an eyewitness...
I've long given up getting an answer on that issue Doojie, the dictionary don't lie though, I do find it interesting if one of us VPW "apologists" would use a word incorrectly like that it would not slide for a second every intellectual on here would be explaining in essay form how wrong we were. But not a peep have I heard. yeah that's the level playing field here.
I think white dove believes these girls could have said NO and i also believe they could have said NO.
but i do not get what his point is either. is it to blame the girls who had sex because they had sex as well as the man ?
so it is BOTH of them that is wrong. ok.
does that make it right or something?
that does discount the drugs and alcohol and the mog and the power play , the man kind of had an advantage there .
no both were wrong. but both were not victims.
I don't think it's as simple as saying "No" and I don't think you can say these victims were wrong. They were wronged. Even without drugs there's a power that someone in VP's position exerts over a young person's mind that doesn't allow for a rational decision to be made. He didn't "ask" them to have sex with him. This is not consensual sex.
When my dear friend confided in me what had happened to her in VP's motorcoach, after VPs death, she told me I was the 1st person she told about this. I knew that it had been a traumatic and deeply hurtful experience for her and I asked her if she felt guilty about it. The way she explained it to me was that she didn't feel guilty because it wasn't a choice that she made. It was such a powerful compulsion to what he told her to do that she didn't have a choice and therefore guilt wasn't the proper word to describe how she felt.
If you people who saw him on stage felt a "power" a presence, then imagion in a one on one situation. At one point he said to me in a command, Let me see your legs.
I had on a dress.
I thought who the he ll are you? but I found myself lifting my dress a little as I was looking AGAIN for a way to get away from him.
I recall years ago, a girl shared a story how she did VP's hair. One day he told her to get on her knees and with such command she found herself on her knees he was on a chair (naked, if I recall correctly) before her. Next thing she knew, he forced his penis in his mouth.
There was a power and it wasn't godly. It was a strong demanding force. And I, a crazy Irish fighting broad, hiked up my dress even though my mid was going crazy with "fight". I never understood that action until reading all the accounts here and hearing SOM and W&W talk about the power he had.
Dot I could answer your questions but honestly you would not like the answers, so whats the point? just more fodder for discussion and believe me there would be discussion. I am not changing how I accept ideas into my mind for anyone, it's my mind and heart and I'll guard it as I see fit. I already explained the process a few posts back , it's what it is, it works fine for me. I'm done trusting people blindly and my life is healthier for it. You can live and function your life as you feel you need to as well. It's nothing personal everyone gets the same deal, if you want me to believe what you are selling you better have the facts to back it up.
There is no blue dress, so I guess opening my heart to someone like you for help, comfort or understanding is futile. That is a shame, I think your real potential will never be reached if you cling to this way of dealing with a big part of the body of Christ who has been injured.
When your child came home from school crying did you blame him? Did you have proof NOT to blame him?
WWJD? Would he turn his back on a ruptured and bleeding flock, make fun of them? Would he say, "YOU should have seen the wolf coming?" Or would he deal with the sheperd who allowed, or did this to his own flock? I do not think you are heartless, just fiercely loyal to a man who does not deserve you in his corner.
I tend to agree with this. He could turn on the light.. I think that is why some people have a hard time connecting with reality here.. they were dazzled by it..
"but look at all the GOOD he did.."
yeah, he paid out, but it was in terms of stolen goods.
Maybe some "entity" did make some agreement with him back in 1942.. if so, I kinda doubt it was God..
All I see is evidence on the internet. from people that do not use their names. about a person decades dead, that can not sue you or defend the accusations.
wh0 is to say who is telling the truth? well the only way is to verify the facts. which cant be done. I can tell you i am 5'10 and slender with good boobs. you might believe me esp. if i had made friendships with you. but if you could see me now !
im surprised catcup is geting so upset when i read of her warning about the internet on this site to not believe everything written here .
does that mean im calling those who are telling their story liars?
no not to me . this is an internet forum on a public forum . the fact vpw was never charged with any crimes while alive is also a facotr , yes i know WHY you say that never happened but it is a fact to consider.
emotions run high , and guessing will work for some. but I had a supreme court judge say something to me many many years ago as i complained about the fact this person could again take me to court and accuse me again and i have to waste years of my life and money proving it was not true.
he said "they can say what they like , but in my court room they have to prove it."
you have your proof because of the testimonys you hear and your relationship with those saying the storys.
that is enough for you to convict.
ok then .
but not everyone has that same standard of proof, and to talk about IF it went to court again is just foolish the man was never even arrested for a crime .
why ?is up to those who chose not to do it at the time.. they tell the forum why and since they are the only ones who are still alive by a long shot i do suggest they are they only ones who can appreciate support or empathy or consel about their life.
it seems no more wasteful than defending a long dead man.
it is funny to me that the focus is so strong on each "side" and the bottom line is neither "side" can do a darn thing about changing how this is done,and yet somehow it is the more noble and saintly mission they feel the push from to tell all.
to warn others about a dead man capacity to do sexual harm is not going to dig him up from the grave and punish him .
to state one does not believe the testimony and prove it etc and go at it from that angle doesnt stop the testimony.
so as far as i read the guts of this discussion is about pride in each person , with a mission , to hurt one another,
maybe with the facts about the sexual abuse being said on this forum another person wont be harmed by VPW ( he is dead) so it must be the goal of wanting people think less of his research or books or class.
those who do not believe the testimony defend a dead man , and a work they have enjoyed teaching in their life. Vpw is not getting hurt. the work you enjoy and appreciate can still be enjoyed and appreciate without this fight.
so whay do you continue ? i do think it has a much bigger source on both sides.
WHITE DOVE, OLDIES (AND OTHER VEEPEE WORSHIPERS): CURRENT TWI LEADERSHIP DOES NOT DENY THESE THINGS HAPPENED, WHY DO YOU?
I walked away from TWI after the first couple of hints of something not being right. I didn't even know of all of the sexual predator stuff, there were just some things that I knew and heard (from the top leadership) that "didn't sit right" with me. I guess you could say it was that still small voice, my conscience, whatever.
Years go by (about 20). In all that time I still carried the bogus thought of "TWI is still the best thing going"... "they've got a better handle on THE TRUTH than anyone else"... why would I go anywhere else for my "Christian" learning? Of course, these thoughts had been drilled into my brain during all of the years I was a "faithful follower of the way"...
Then one day I thought "hmmm, maybe I'll see if there's a twig around here somewhere. maybe things have changed"... I googled... and lo and behold I get all of this information coming at me about veepee and LCM... I get all of this information coming at me about people being treated like chattel, people suffering all sorts of mental, verbal and physical and sexual abuse...
All sorts of things... nothing at all like what I remembered from my days as an "innie"... BUT ...a lot like I thought things could have progressed to in my worst and wildest imagination.
I was really, really shocked. I didn't want to think that these things could have happened. How could they? ...not to MY ministry!
Even though I'd left, those feelings were still strong because of the amount of my life I had invested...
I DID NOT WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE OR EVEN CONSIDER THAT SOMETHING I HAD GIVEN MY LIFE TO FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS COULD BE SO WRONG... BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN THAT I WAS WRONG FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS, THAT WOULD MEAN (in my mind) THAT I'D HAVE TO ADMIT THAT 'I WAS DUPED'...
And I certainly didn't want to admit that... not me.
SO... I thought, let me ask someone in current TWI leadership about these things. I need to know if there's any truth to any of these things I've heard.
Just like you White Dove, Oldies and the rest of you veepee apologists... I DIDN'T WANT TO BELIEVE OR THINK THAT THINGS COULD HAVE GOTTEN SO BAD.
So... I went to current TWI leadership, pretty high up in the old tree I'd think, folks that had been around since the early to mid seventies... and you know what? When I presented to them all of the things I'd heard about: veepee & LCM and all of the sex stuff, plagiarism, M&A, POP, etc ... everything I could think of... one by one I sat with them and asked "what about this?" and then "what about this?" and then "what about this?"
And they answered.
To each one of the things that I brought up they answered... and the answer was always "YES. That happened." THEY NEVER DENIED IT. They didn't like that it had happened but they didn't deny it. They rationalized their 'staying in' with "we're all human and we all make mistakes, just look at the Catholic Church" type of responses when I'd ask them "how can you still be involved in TWI?"
Their position was (and is) that they're remaining loyal to 'the ministry that taught them the Word' and that they were going to try to continue to do the best they can.
That's their choice. I don't understand it, or see any logic in it, but that's their choice...
But the important thing (to me) is that THEY DO NOT DENY that these things happened. Current TWI leadership... they DO NOT DENY that these things happened.
Current TWI leadership does not deny that these things happened yet you folks do (White Dove, Oldiesman, etal)... and you continue to discount the lives and hearts of those that were hurt, abused and molested. That's insane...
YOU ARE NOT 'OUT' OF TWI YET WHITE DOVE, OLDIES, ETC
Let's not forget that the underlying theme and reason that this website was created was to expose the evils of twi...GreaseSpot is the "follow up" to WayDale which was started by a husband whose wife was sexually assaulted by Craig Martindale...as a result of these two websites, hundreds, perhaps thousand have been enlightened as to what was really going on in the Way ministry, at the top levels...These forums and various discussions have provided the necessary information for people to make informed decisions and to begin a healing process...
People who were "marked and avoided"...thrown out and isolated and filled with guilt and grief...What we have done here is to give these people an opprotunity to mentally and spiritually rebound in their lives. It's a huge step to eliminate guilt...people who thought it was THEIR fault now realize that they had been conned by wolves in sheep's clothing.
It's true that Wierwille is dead but the damage he did to people's lives continues to resonate and live on...both through the residual damage in people's lives and also by virtue of the fact that twi still exists and still continues to oppress people. I have no interest in "punishing" a dead man...but I AM interested in seeing people liberated from the bondage of twi
There's absolutely no question that Wierwille was a sexual predator...Anyone who still defends him is ignoring reality. This is not a court of law, nor is it an excercise in the art of debate...it's people pouring out their hearts and speaking of their experiences. It's a cold hearted soul who insists on blaming the victims of this monster in order to preserve some kind of false image of this man that they precariously cling to...and in my opinion, defending Wierwille demonstrates a true lack of spiritual perception.
The blinders have been lifted off...the scales have fallen from people's eyes and we now know what a selfish, self serving, dishonest, uncaring, drunken sleezeball Wierwille was...To continue to wear your "twi colored glasses" is harmful to yourself, to others and is patently dishonest.
I was with Dr. and Mrs. Wierwille for a month, back in June of 1984 on a 6,000 mile motorcycle trip. This was about a year before his death. At that time, he had his glass eye; he seemed calm and serene, not having such evil power described here. Perhaps he was at a point in his life, closing in on his death, when he repented and asked God for forgiveness. I don't know. All I know is, this is the Victor Paul Wierwille I experienced and remember. I'm sorry some folks experienced a disgusting part of him.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Ham
shoulda read a little closer.. looks like you beat me to it..
but yes, fifty eight years old???
what I have somewhat of a hard time understanding.. how did he convince twenty some year olds to conceal and cover up this kind of activity?
Then again.. I've met a couple of them. Not too much brain to wash to begin with..
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GarthP2000
Are you f'ing serious guy?? Do you actually think that VPW having sex with her (in such a clearly manipulative manner) would heal her from her childhood troubles? ... Is that you 'walking by the spirit' according to the 'principles' of PFAL??
Is your loyalty to VPW that damn blind??
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WhiteDove
Hey alphkat its my life and I can accept or not anything I want.. I could care less what you think of me by the way F U
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act2
White Dove,
If Jesus is lord of your life, you need to get down on your knees (even if you rarely do that sort of thing) and ask God to forgive you for your comments on this thread. And that goes for oldiesman also.
I am ashamed of you and I don't even know you.
It is past my bedtime, so I am signing off for tonite. It isn't that I am ignoring anyone!!
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WhiteDove
I never do that sort of thing and don't plan on starting now I am perfectly happy with my comments sorry if you accept things blindly I don't.
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doojable
Here's another example of why I think threads like this often go south:
Let's say that you're a teenager and you go to a party. As the night progresses, without the benefit of beer and mary jane - you have a GREAT TIME. In fact, you just can't believe how good a time all the folks are having. Kids who once fought are now talking and becoming friends, girls aren't playing their teenage girl games, the guys are getting along and not being all macho and stuff.
You all go home. On the way home - four of your best friends from childhood die in a devasting car wreck. Neither drugs nor alcohol can be blamed - it was a freak accident - but devastating just the same.
Weeks later, months later, years later when you remember that night you find that even though YOU REMEMBER THE GOOD TIMES it is still hard to celebrate them because you also remember the friends you lost that night. You especially wouldn't dream of talking about how great that party was in front of the relatives of those that died.
NOW - I'm not saying that TWI was a party. I'm merely giving a much more benign scenario that has a lot less emotion tied up in it , to illustrate a point: It's normal to consider the pain that occured even though you might have learned a lot and made great friends.
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WhiteDove
Dot I could answer your questions but honestly you would not like the answers, so whats the point? just more fodder for discussion and believe me there would be discussion. I am not changing how I accept ideas into my mind for anyone, it's my mind and heart and I'll guard it as I see fit. I already explained the process a few posts back , it's what it is, it works fine for me. I'm done trusting people blindly and my life is healthier for it. You can live and function your life as you feel you need to as well. It's nothing personal everyone gets the same deal, if you want me to believe what you are selling you better have the facts to back it up.
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wrdsandwrks
I haven't read through this whole thread yet but I started from the end and I'm working my way backwards. I went WOW in 1975 the age of seventeen. I turned 18 in January of 1976. My parents, who were not in TWI, signed a paper giving me permission to go. As much as it broke my parents hearts to have me give up a college academic scholarship to go WOW, they gave me their permission. If I remember correctly my WOW coordinator was also 17 or barely 18 and the other 2 girls were 18. Not a lot of combined wisdom among the group. I was also sexually assaulted as a WOW, but I don't think it caused the lasting damage because it was a stranger who broke into our apt. rather than the trusted MOG. Want to blame my parents?
Not sure what your point is, are you saying that her parents were responsible for the rape? Sorry but that just doesn't cut it. Full responsibility lies with the perpertrator of the crime, which is even more despicable because he was put in a position of trust by her and her parents and then he just used her up and spit her out.
IMO if TWI truly had any integrity they would disband the organization, sell all the property, collect all the Swiss bank accounts or wherever they've stashed the loot they stole from innocent people and set up a fund to renumerate all those victims of sexual assault whose lives were derailed by having a person they trusted abuse them in such a manner. The money would not come close to restoring what was stolen from them but it would be a step in the right direction.
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doojable
I'm assuming the facts you're referring to are ONLY in reference to a person saying they are an eyewitness...
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WhiteDove
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Son of the Master
In 1980, I spent two about two hours having lunch with my sister in Christ ex. I spent a year in training with her at Emporia . Although I didnt know her well, my WOWs' and I were in her town and I made contact with her. It was one of my fondest memories back in those days. Ex spoke the Word to me, I spoke the Word to her and we had a great time of fellowship. I saw the five-fold ministry of a Pastor in her and perceived a pure heart and a tremendous love for God. She blessed my life with her time and really ministered to me as I was pretty worn out from "the field."
As I read this thread I learned things about her past that I did not know about.
I am appalled at the attacks on her life. I am disgusted with the lack of sympathy and the hard heartedness aimed at her.
I have learned over the years after being married for 26 years (and a faithful husband) that I or no other men have a clue how women think or how deeply sensitive they are. Many men are insensitive and think they are God's gift to women. Self absorbed men think all women "want it" because they think all women want them. What a joke.
Where is the love of God and graciousness toward ex and other women who have been so violated by someone they were supposed to be able to trust?
Ex is a wonderful woman with a heart for God. The rapes by VPW were no less than an attack by a man with devils of lust designed to steal, kill and destroy their lives thus aborting their ministerial calling not to mention their joy and happiness. Rape, what a selfish act. It is a violation of free will.
I traveled and taught bible classes in 13 states in the U.S. from 1995 to 1998. The classes were mainly former TWI folks. The classes were designed to heal and restore people. I taught approximately one class a month. In EVERY class, at least one woman came to me and told me that VPW had raped them or forced them to do something sexually. One woman even told me she was his mistress at HQ for years and VP got jealous if he saw her with another man. These were first hand accounts and these women were truly traumitized. I heard more than I ever wanted to know and still have to live with the memories of their experiences. Instead of attacking ex, we should extend a healing hand to her.
We as the body of Christ should discern the times and seasons and know that Christ is returning soon. Time spent attacking one another is time wasted and there are STILL souls in the world that need to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Why don't we rise up again and get in the spiritual fight. Lets quit arguing over doctrine and witness to someone.
Greasespot can be the most healing place for old TWI folks. Lets heal and not hurt.
You know what I learned in PFAL? To walk in the love of God AND there is a dying world that needs to be evangelized. Millions now smoking!!!!!!!!!!!!!
exxy, I admire and love you. You are a Pastor. Lets get you healed so you can feed the flock of God. SOMaster
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doojable
Please don't call me "Doojie"
Now as to your statement:
Apologist
<SNIP>
a·pol·o·gist /əˈpɒlədʒɪst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-pol-uh-jist] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.
<SNIP>
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ex10
Son of the Master
That was a really kind and touching post.
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J0nny Ling0
"Millions now smoking....."
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dmiller
And??? :)
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wrdsandwrks
I don't think it's as simple as saying "No" and I don't think you can say these victims were wrong. They were wronged. Even without drugs there's a power that someone in VP's position exerts over a young person's mind that doesn't allow for a rational decision to be made. He didn't "ask" them to have sex with him. This is not consensual sex.
When my dear friend confided in me what had happened to her in VP's motorcoach, after VPs death, she told me I was the 1st person she told about this. I knew that it had been a traumatic and deeply hurtful experience for her and I asked her if she felt guilty about it. The way she explained it to me was that she didn't feel guilty because it wasn't a choice that she made. It was such a powerful compulsion to what he told her to do that she didn't have a choice and therefore guilt wasn't the proper word to describe how she felt.
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Dot Matrix
W&W
I do know that power of which you speak...
If you people who saw him on stage felt a "power" a presence, then imagion in a one on one situation. At one point he said to me in a command, Let me see your legs.
I had on a dress.
I thought who the he ll are you? but I found myself lifting my dress a little as I was looking AGAIN for a way to get away from him.
I recall years ago, a girl shared a story how she did VP's hair. One day he told her to get on her knees and with such command she found herself on her knees he was on a chair (naked, if I recall correctly) before her. Next thing she knew, he forced his penis in his mouth.
There was a power and it wasn't godly. It was a strong demanding force. And I, a crazy Irish fighting broad, hiked up my dress even though my mid was going crazy with "fight". I never understood that action until reading all the accounts here and hearing SOM and W&W talk about the power he had.
It was NOT from God.
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Dot Matrix
There is no blue dress, so I guess opening my heart to someone like you for help, comfort or understanding is futile. That is a shame, I think your real potential will never be reached if you cling to this way of dealing with a big part of the body of Christ who has been injured.
When your child came home from school crying did you blame him? Did you have proof NOT to blame him?
WWJD? Would he turn his back on a ruptured and bleeding flock, make fun of them? Would he say, "YOU should have seen the wolf coming?" Or would he deal with the sheperd who allowed, or did this to his own flock? I do not think you are heartless, just fiercely loyal to a man who does not deserve you in his corner.
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Ham
I tend to agree with this. He could turn on the light.. I think that is why some people have a hard time connecting with reality here.. they were dazzled by it..
"but look at all the GOOD he did.."
yeah, he paid out, but it was in terms of stolen goods.
Maybe some "entity" did make some agreement with him back in 1942.. if so, I kinda doubt it was God..
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WhiteDove
Dot your wrong about that I am fiercely loyal to truth!
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
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pond
All I see is evidence on the internet. from people that do not use their names. about a person decades dead, that can not sue you or defend the accusations.
wh0 is to say who is telling the truth? well the only way is to verify the facts. which cant be done. I can tell you i am 5'10 and slender with good boobs. you might believe me esp. if i had made friendships with you. but if you could see me now !
im surprised catcup is geting so upset when i read of her warning about the internet on this site to not believe everything written here .
does that mean im calling those who are telling their story liars?
no not to me . this is an internet forum on a public forum . the fact vpw was never charged with any crimes while alive is also a facotr , yes i know WHY you say that never happened but it is a fact to consider.
emotions run high , and guessing will work for some. but I had a supreme court judge say something to me many many years ago as i complained about the fact this person could again take me to court and accuse me again and i have to waste years of my life and money proving it was not true.
he said "they can say what they like , but in my court room they have to prove it."
you have your proof because of the testimonys you hear and your relationship with those saying the storys.
that is enough for you to convict.
ok then .
but not everyone has that same standard of proof, and to talk about IF it went to court again is just foolish the man was never even arrested for a crime .
why ?is up to those who chose not to do it at the time.. they tell the forum why and since they are the only ones who are still alive by a long shot i do suggest they are they only ones who can appreciate support or empathy or consel about their life.
it seems no more wasteful than defending a long dead man.
it is funny to me that the focus is so strong on each "side" and the bottom line is neither "side" can do a darn thing about changing how this is done,and yet somehow it is the more noble and saintly mission they feel the push from to tell all.
to warn others about a dead man capacity to do sexual harm is not going to dig him up from the grave and punish him .
to state one does not believe the testimony and prove it etc and go at it from that angle doesnt stop the testimony.
so as far as i read the guts of this discussion is about pride in each person , with a mission , to hurt one another,
maybe with the facts about the sexual abuse being said on this forum another person wont be harmed by VPW ( he is dead) so it must be the goal of wanting people think less of his research or books or class.
those who do not believe the testimony defend a dead man , and a work they have enjoyed teaching in their life. Vpw is not getting hurt. the work you enjoy and appreciate can still be enjoyed and appreciate without this fight.
so whay do you continue ? i do think it has a much bigger source on both sides.
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Tom Strange
WHITE DOVE, OLDIES (AND OTHER VEEPEE WORSHIPERS): CURRENT TWI LEADERSHIP DOES NOT DENY THESE THINGS HAPPENED, WHY DO YOU?
I walked away from TWI after the first couple of hints of something not being right. I didn't even know of all of the sexual predator stuff, there were just some things that I knew and heard (from the top leadership) that "didn't sit right" with me. I guess you could say it was that still small voice, my conscience, whatever.
Years go by (about 20). In all that time I still carried the bogus thought of "TWI is still the best thing going"... "they've got a better handle on THE TRUTH than anyone else"... why would I go anywhere else for my "Christian" learning? Of course, these thoughts had been drilled into my brain during all of the years I was a "faithful follower of the way"...
Then one day I thought "hmmm, maybe I'll see if there's a twig around here somewhere. maybe things have changed"... I googled... and lo and behold I get all of this information coming at me about veepee and LCM... I get all of this information coming at me about people being treated like chattel, people suffering all sorts of mental, verbal and physical and sexual abuse...
All sorts of things... nothing at all like what I remembered from my days as an "innie"... BUT ...a lot like I thought things could have progressed to in my worst and wildest imagination.
I was really, really shocked. I didn't want to think that these things could have happened. How could they? ...not to MY ministry!
Even though I'd left, those feelings were still strong because of the amount of my life I had invested...
I DID NOT WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE OR EVEN CONSIDER THAT SOMETHING I HAD GIVEN MY LIFE TO FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS COULD BE SO WRONG... BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN THAT I WAS WRONG FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS, THAT WOULD MEAN (in my mind) THAT I'D HAVE TO ADMIT THAT 'I WAS DUPED'...
And I certainly didn't want to admit that... not me.
SO... I thought, let me ask someone in current TWI leadership about these things. I need to know if there's any truth to any of these things I've heard.
Just like you White Dove, Oldies and the rest of you veepee apologists... I DIDN'T WANT TO BELIEVE OR THINK THAT THINGS COULD HAVE GOTTEN SO BAD.
So... I went to current TWI leadership, pretty high up in the old tree I'd think, folks that had been around since the early to mid seventies... and you know what? When I presented to them all of the things I'd heard about: veepee & LCM and all of the sex stuff, plagiarism, M&A, POP, etc ... everything I could think of... one by one I sat with them and asked "what about this?" and then "what about this?" and then "what about this?"
And they answered.
To each one of the things that I brought up they answered... and the answer was always "YES. That happened." THEY NEVER DENIED IT. They didn't like that it had happened but they didn't deny it. They rationalized their 'staying in' with "we're all human and we all make mistakes, just look at the Catholic Church" type of responses when I'd ask them "how can you still be involved in TWI?"
Their position was (and is) that they're remaining loyal to 'the ministry that taught them the Word' and that they were going to try to continue to do the best they can.
That's their choice. I don't understand it, or see any logic in it, but that's their choice...
But the important thing (to me) is that THEY DO NOT DENY that these things happened. Current TWI leadership... they DO NOT DENY that these things happened.
Current TWI leadership does not deny that these things happened yet you folks do (White Dove, Oldiesman, etal)... and you continue to discount the lives and hearts of those that were hurt, abused and molested. That's insane...
YOU ARE NOT 'OUT' OF TWI YET WHITE DOVE, OLDIES, ETC
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GrouchoMarxJr
Let's not forget that the underlying theme and reason that this website was created was to expose the evils of twi...GreaseSpot is the "follow up" to WayDale which was started by a husband whose wife was sexually assaulted by Craig Martindale...as a result of these two websites, hundreds, perhaps thousand have been enlightened as to what was really going on in the Way ministry, at the top levels...These forums and various discussions have provided the necessary information for people to make informed decisions and to begin a healing process...
People who were "marked and avoided"...thrown out and isolated and filled with guilt and grief...What we have done here is to give these people an opprotunity to mentally and spiritually rebound in their lives. It's a huge step to eliminate guilt...people who thought it was THEIR fault now realize that they had been conned by wolves in sheep's clothing.
It's true that Wierwille is dead but the damage he did to people's lives continues to resonate and live on...both through the residual damage in people's lives and also by virtue of the fact that twi still exists and still continues to oppress people. I have no interest in "punishing" a dead man...but I AM interested in seeing people liberated from the bondage of twi
There's absolutely no question that Wierwille was a sexual predator...Anyone who still defends him is ignoring reality. This is not a court of law, nor is it an excercise in the art of debate...it's people pouring out their hearts and speaking of their experiences. It's a cold hearted soul who insists on blaming the victims of this monster in order to preserve some kind of false image of this man that they precariously cling to...and in my opinion, defending Wierwille demonstrates a true lack of spiritual perception.
The blinders have been lifted off...the scales have fallen from people's eyes and we now know what a selfish, self serving, dishonest, uncaring, drunken sleezeball Wierwille was...To continue to wear your "twi colored glasses" is harmful to yourself, to others and is patently dishonest.
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oldiesman
I was with Dr. and Mrs. Wierwille for a month, back in June of 1984 on a 6,000 mile motorcycle trip. This was about a year before his death. At that time, he had his glass eye; he seemed calm and serene, not having such evil power described here. Perhaps he was at a point in his life, closing in on his death, when he repented and asked God for forgiveness. I don't know. All I know is, this is the Victor Paul Wierwille I experienced and remember. I'm sorry some folks experienced a disgusting part of him.
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