i'm trying to remember..... he was drying his hair in the bathroom. he was totally nude and the door was open. he was looking in the mirror at himself and turned totally around to smile a "hi" to me
even the year before that i had gone to visit a friend of a friend out in the boonies and they (the whole family) all walked around naked. i don't know if that has anything to do with the price of eggs
--
but yes i loved him like a father (or you know, wishing i had had a good father)
but i didn't choose him at all for a sexual relationship
it happened once and it was horrifying. i think i posted on that already
Excath, you owe NOONE any explanations, reasonings, nothing!
That kind of shi+ is unbelievable and you have no reason to feel guilt, shame, remorse and clearly no cause to feel you have to respond to such cruelty.
Easy for me to say huh? But really, you can tell those that challenge you or suggest anything other than support to get thee behind you.
Amazing they even consider piling abuse on top of abuse and expect anyone to swallow.
They've earned my pity. But any attention is attention to them, just fools.
You mean - this isn't someone tooting their own horn here?
You don't want to believe their accounts? Fine, and nobody can (or will) make you believe otherwise. Suffice it to say that the jury here at Greasespot has made up its mind (and I can say this as I see the majority of people here agree with this) as to VPW's guilt. And while there is or has been no jury that has determined Wierwille guilty from a legal standpoint, we can determine him guilty in our own beliefs and convictions, which appeal to a more moral standard.
One more point tho. Please don't insult our intelligence with this presumptuous swill that, because we (supposedly and allegedly) aren't applying the same level of legal standard that you do and expect in your (supposed) appeal to American legal principle, that we are somehow less embracing and believing in that principle of innocent until proven guilty than you are. The only real difference here is that we believe that enough evidence has been given to convict, whereas you do not. ... And it goes no farther than that.
So please spare us the stomach turning 'wrap yourself in the American flag' facade.
I say: Spare us from that self-righteous administration of justice you've hidden under the American Flag for yourself!
God spare us all from that lynch-mob, vigilante, phylospical justification of someone possessing superior virtue and thus becoming for themselves the imago dei (the image of God) on earth!!!
And you're trying to convince people here your moral standard is better than theirs?
No thanks. We had quite enough of that "moral standard" when we were in TWI!
I feel sorry for Doreen. She started this thread. She only has 7 posts. She probably thinks it's her fault that this thread has taken the direction it has taken. God if she only knew what carnage has already happened here.
This particular thread was intended to be mostly positive and upbeat and then it got derailed by the negative people. But there are other threads that were intended to be about negative stuff which got derailed by the positive people. The threads like that can get ugly but they can also cause release for the people involved. They start out being about the topic and then it's all about egos and credibility.
I CANNOT believe I've read this whole thread! I admit to skim-reading certain parts, particularly once I got to know the players. :) Still took me eight hours, with only a short break to make and (sort of) enjoy a tuna sandwich and a glass of milk.
Lots of points were scored by both teams, and there were quite a few flags were thrown, and penalties. Wish this hadn't descended into the usual slugfest, but I do understand that there are a variety of needs to address. I'm sympathetic to the presumption of innocence (ala disciderator) and I also tend to use a little salt when confronted with even "eyewitness" testimony. I spent many years in TWI and had my ups and downs, and am surely changed for the experience. Still sorting out what was the baby and what the bathwater.
In recent years, my wife and I have been connected with a small "splinter" that took some bold directions, some of which I don't necessarily agree with, but I've hung around because generally people are commited to forbearance and in actually helping one another. The course changed at one point from a pronounced casting-out-of-spirits (ala Derek Prince) to "inner healing," which has a lot to do with revisiting past trauma, and "allowing" God into the process, in order to gain His light on some of the events that were pivotal in our lives.
Also, some years ago, God granted Liz and I a year or two where we visited a number of different churches, from mega-churches with the full orchestras, to little Pentacostal Holiness Deliverance Tabernacles. We've also visited a number of Quaker meetings (ask me sometime!) and of course, the baby was there, and plenty of bathwater, if you know what I mean.
We have a wonderful couple not far from us who have been hosting a fellowship to explore the Gospels. Some years ago, Anth0ny Buzzard visited here, and got a number of us thinking of the kingdom of God, and in particular, the teachings and ministry of Jesus. This was one of the things that got us revisiting the Gospels. I've since become convinced that dispensationalism is bad theology. It separates us from the teachings of Jesus, allowing us to ignore them as "addressed" to others. As Anthony might say (or Jesus himself), "you call him lord. Wouldn't it make sense to listen to what he says?" (I anticipate the retorts... I was a retorter, once, myself... try to stay out of that now.) Anyway, the group just started with Matthew 1:1, and after several years, they're just beginning the Gospel of John. They just go through as many of the verses that week as they like, and pick up the next week with the next verse. "Our" ranks are being "thinned" (thickened) with newcomers who never heard of TWI. As for Liz and myself, the only fellowship we host is once a month, on the first Friday, when we host communion at our home. Usually 4 or 5 people come, and sometimes we have a meal together. (You are welcome.... email me for directions!)
As I revisit here, and am reminded of the hurt people have to deal with, it saddens me greatly. It also saddens me to see those whose faith has been destoyed. I don't come here with the foolish notion that we can just talk about the good ol' days, how ever each of us might define them. This is a site that grew out of a fallen ministry, and one that, IMO, fell for good reason. God does not take it lightly when men get "high and mighty." TWI has become a nothing, and less than nothing. Mrs. Wierwille.... don't even get me started. Dr. Wierwille died before his accusers could get their bearings, apparently, but ultimately, God judges us all. Like "deciderator" I have a good deal of respect for our justice system, but obviously, it fails, and we have OJ still golfing. But he's in a prison of a different sort, as is LCM, who was not so "fortunate" as to have died before his accusers got their bearings!
Only once, after many many years in the ministry, was I aware of any sexual shenannigans by leadership. While I was in residence, a fellowcorpsmember told me of an advance that was made on her at the campus by a visiting "dignitary." Shortly after that, LCM started resisting CG's vision of how things should go, and our Corps Coordinators (the Mausolfs) left, and then nearly EVERYBODY we counted honest started leaving, and we finally left also. (Not that I condone CG's thing... nothing could be further from the truth.)
Regardless of fallible men and ministries, we're all still on a journey, and it's a journey of salvation. Many of the people here are "working out" that salvation, as am I. Some appear to have given up. But even those who have given up are still in God's hands, and what Jesus did for them (as well as for us, who call him "Lord") still abides.
The class was full of stuff I'd never considered before. Overall, the idea of approaching it honestly, and letting it "speak for itself" is one of the abiding principles I live by... of not coming to it with the "answers." But much of the class was just hogwash. Hogwash released by a sincere man, but you know, sincerety is just no guarantee for truth! Some of the things others have said they loved from the class seem like pure hogwash to me now. I agree with the poster that (so long ago) opined that TWI was a good thing gone bad. Maybe absolute power does corrupt absolutely. I'm convinced that success in ministry is as much a test of one's character as failure. (True in general life, as well.) I admire Rev. Billy Graham's growth as he matured. He actually got better with age, despite his success! His sermon/sharing after 9/11 in the National Cathedral was magnificent.
Anyway, folks, thanks for the perspective. I do pray, and I believe that you will find the healing you seek, and I'm thankful for this site, this opportunity to go back-and-forth on some of these issues. It certainly can help.
Yesterday morning Pond's quick response to my post included the statement, "no one is trustworthy in life? that is not going to get the job done at some point we just have to take a risk and decide for our own self who it will be or not"
Some people, including I...and including you on this thread...have attached importance to first hand testimony from real live non anonymous people. from an earlier post of yours...
Is M's account not an eyewitness account? (She was there!)
It may be it may not be it is words on a screen by an anonymous person on the internet that showed up on a anti way site. No I do not accept everything I read on the net as truth it may be the gospel truth it may be biased BS who can know?
My point was that some who claimed to be able to verify the eyewitness account seem to be lacking in the story as being a eyewitness as I see it at best yes M would be an eyewitness I see no verification of the story by anyone else. other than second hand info and opinion.
You make a big point about not trusting anonymous accounts on the net and/or second hand information and opinions, and not trusting accounts where there is a lack of an eyewitess. Good. I have dome the same. By saying this, we are both therefore attaching great importance to real first hand accounts. When we do that, we are ready to accept the credibility of such accounts or we are lying hypocrites.
Many (too many ) years ago, in school, I had a teacher who showed a picture, I think it was on a bus or something and there were several people in the picture, and someone was wielding a knife, and there were other details I don't remember. Anyway, the teacher had one person look for a while at the picture, then describe it in as much detail as he could to someone else who had not seen the picture, who in turn relayed the description to someone else and about five time over that way. Of course by the time the last person related the description, it had completely changed.
So when we trust a first hand account, there is a lot of risks that we eliminate.
Now add this: If someone knows who you are, and you are telling them about a terrible personal experience that happened to YOU, exposing yourself to personal attacks and questions, but you go ahead and do it anyway, I think that falls into the category of trustable if ANYTHING does. Or, before you bring this up, if it DIDNT happen to you, would you lie about something like that and expose yourself for no reason?
We have some who proclaim that this is not a court of law, that our standards for finding out what really happened don't have to be that stringent, with those same people usually pointing out that the volume of talk overcomes this. My point is, from your reply...and I thank you for making it...you dont seem ready to accept even the first hand accounts from live non anonymous people that you earlier post attached so much importance to. In other words, why the talk about the accounts being second hand and anonymous if a personal first person non anonymous account of abuse wouldnt make any difference to you?
I guess I can see why I get some responses to my efforts such as I described in my earlier post.
I'm not sure I understand your questions but here goes Let me make this easy No one is trustworthy in life thats my new rule it comes from experiance not emotion in other words it does not matter to me if it is family, friend , someone I like ,or dislike that is irrelevant. They are all human you can present any account, story you want to me I'll assscess it the same if it is logical then it stands if there are holes and or questions in the account then you will need proof before I will accept it period . Thats the burden of truth. I don't care really if the account is firsthand secondhand or thirdhand it all gets the same treatment does it pass the critera for truth.
You dont seem ready to accept even the first hand accounts from live non anonymous people that you earlier post attached so much importance to. In other words, why the talk about the accounts being second hand and anonymous if a personal first person non anonymous account of abuse wouldnt make any difference to you?
It is pretty commen knowledge that the farther you get away from the source the more margin for error in a story there is, logically then the closer to the source the less chance there is. So in consideration there is a slightly more creditable level in accounts shared by the person involved. That does not mean they get a free pass from the criteria for truth though, they still must pass the test, as I indicated above. The reason anonymous accounts are more problematic are that it becomes more difficult to gets answers when looking for mystery person X as opposed to someone who would sign their name. In other words it is a lot easier to find Suzie Smith than Space cadet X. As you mentioned if one is willing to sign their name to something as well ,there is a level of responsibility to the work as it has your name on it. In this case I do understand the need for some not to do so or at least the reluctance to do so.
Is it possible he really thought that he could heal you from your childhood troubles? Is it possible he was making a sincere gesture?
I think it is. Maybe I'm wrong.
...We had quite enough of that "moral standard" when we were in TWI!
Yeah…that reminds me of another "great" thing I learned in PFAL – the vickster's great moral standard, "Love God and your neighbor and you can do as you full well please." After all, anything done in the love of God is okay - - right?
"Father says I'm supposed to help myself to you…I mean…I myself should help you…here, have a drink, relax…sometimes these ministering sessions can get heavy…just relax and soak up God's love…it will just bless your panties off…I mean socks…it will just bless your socks off…Why, there's been women I've had...er...I've had...to help that were so blessed they can't even remember what happened here."
Dot I can't say what I would have done if I was a young girl in that situation, I'd like to think I would have remained true to what I had learned and stood on scripture. But who knows? And even if I did my stand is not the issue. My only response to this was if one does put ones self in harms way after knowing of danger then at some point we have personal responsibility another words don't walk down second street at 3:00 am and wonder why you got mugged. In the case of M's account and her account only, I did note that it was not correct to say she had no chance to walk away by her own account she was in her car and in a rage flinging gravel on the motor coach. she was free and clear she made the choice for reasons unknown to return with the full knowledge of the potential danger and no support . Should she have had to have had that Absolutely not, she should have felt safe there. But she knew better when she returned, I don't know the reasons for her mistake but from looking at the record it is clear she did have a chance to get away in fact was in her car and away. Not everyone I know had that same opportunity but in her case she did, to ignore that information was being less than honest. I was not asking for judgment only acknowledgment of the facts that were presented.
White Dove I did go back and confront him with scripture. He told me (in so many words) that I was screwed up for trying to reprove him. He said, "Whatsoever things are pure... think on those things... To the pure ALL things are pure...."
Anyway, he was trying to tell me his SINNING was okay because he was pure and if I didn't SEE it that way then I was impure. You cannot fight that kind of logic. And the ONLY reason I am not among the rape victims is one day at HQS. God told me to get off grounds and not to sign out.
When I came back I was told VP was mad and looking for me, as he wanted to take me on a three-day trip to Indiana. That is how he got Excathedra. He got her on a trip cause you have to have something to drink at one point or another. I had previously told him "no," I had confronted him, and he was still determined..
In the case of M's account and her account only, I did note that it was not correct to say she had no chance to walk away by her own account she was in her car and in a rage flinging gravel on the motor coach. she was free and clear she made the choice for reasons unknown to return with the full knowledge of the potential danger and no support .
Here is the thing Dove, you have been married. Were you ever hurt in that marriage? Did you leave the first time you were hurt? The first time you thought things were not right? Or did you keep going back trying to fix things because you thought your wife was special?
Why do women or men who are hit by their spouse, sit with their blackened eyes and blood filled noses and say, "He didn't mean it. He loves me. Things will get better."
Excathedra had seen something in the people who told her about Jesus. She saw hope and joy and she wanted some of it. Coming form a home full of horrors, one seeks a family environment. Why do you think “gangs” are so popular? There is a feeling of “family” we all seek and those of us who did not find it in our earthly homes look elsewhere. Surely you can see that.
Excath saw something she longed for in those young vibrant girls, and they told her they learned about love from this old guy “VPW”. Naturally, she wanted to meet him! It was like meeting the pope.
Just as you did not think of divorce the first time you saw something you didn’t like in your marriage – neither did she want to see “problems” with the “leader” of this group of new friends she just met.
And Marsha? Have you ever gone back to a gravesite because something is not finished and talked to a grave stone? Or sent flowers to the grave? That is not really rational.
It is so shocking to realize the guy you followed into the corps, the man you thought breathed words of life into your lost soul, the reason you skipped college and went into the corps is REALLY a creep. That you are almost pulled back for a second look – Did it happen?
When the married region guy crept into my bed (uninvited) and the next thing I know he was “in” me, I was shocked, traumatized. Face down I was waking up to the uninvited or expected act. My belief system was shaken! He was a Man who hours before taught Hot Bible.
I was so confused, I thought “Does he love me?”
“Are we going to date now?”
“What does this mean?”
“HE must have not meant to do this, he is a Man of God.”
I could not believe I was raped by him.
I went back the next day, in my confused and shocked state and I thanked him for coming. I should have called the police. But there was so much to loose. I had already left my house, my friends and family to be in TWI. It was my LIFE. If I acknowledged what happened to me then it was all a joke, a lie, it was nothing. Then, where did that leave all my deliverance in PFAL? Was that an illusion? I did tell on him to other ministry leaders -- so they had an area meeting (they would not let me attend) and told everyone I was possessed. Then, tried to push me to suicide - after all it is better to loose one, so the team can continue on.
So, I wanted to tell VPW about this guy and the GIRL who was also involved in pimping women. When he sent for me I thought it was my chance to save the ministry from these “devils” he had in power. Only, he was naked and asked me …. I said no, and mentally lost my mind for a moment. Then, this stuff on the field would not be stopped by him – he perpetuated it.
So, if you will for one moment become human, without the walking billboard of thinking positives about VP, trying not to let our words touch your memory of him, and what you think he was. Can you for one minute understand people are not robots. To think these girls should have said "no", or walked away, or stayed out of harms way, would work if we were robots. But we are complex humans. We run into burning buildings to save screaming children, we believe a husband is going to stop beating us, or that the man who taught us PFAL can’t be bad. So, we walk back into a situation cause we can’t believe it, or because we are tormented by what we saw – or confused by what broke in us.
We go back for the same reasons you and your wife did not divorce the FIRST time you had a fight. We hope for the best, we get confused by things that are so outrageous they cannot be true -- but they are, we don't want to hurt, we want to fix things. We are so shaken it, is an effort to breath, let alone think and act rationally. We are shocked and devastated. Didn't you ever have your heart break? Surely you have been confused when your heart broke. Can't you be as kind to Marsha, Excath, Catcup or me?
Imagine, being raped by VPW. Really imagine waking up with him next to you naked, all you know is you had a drink and now you know this man "took" you sexually. How rational are you going to be? Are you going to kill him? Beat him up? Act like it didn't happen? Or enjoy it and become a groupie as different people respond differently. There is no normal way to respond to this, please give Marsha a break.
Is it possible he really thought that he could heal you from your childhood troubles? Is it possible he was making a sincere gesture?
I think it is. Maybe I'm wrong.
I'm sorry, but the sheer idiocy of this statment befuddles me. I keep trying not to comment on it since so many others have already. I can't be silent any longer.
Oldies, just tell me how this makes sense in your world. You think that by having sex with her he would heal her of her childhood troubles?!!! WTF?
Let me say that again for emphasis:
WTF??!!
So by that logic:
I was burned very badly as a child, someone should set me on fire to take care of that scar.
I broke my leg when I was 5 - maybe you better amputate it since it sometimes aches when it rains.
I broke a tooth as a teen and I was teased. So now maybe you should remove all my teeth and send me out in public.
And is it NORMAL for a 50 something year old man of the cloth to want to drug a girl and have sex with her?
hmm. I'm fifty..
ya know, at that stage in life a person is old enough to be a grandparent.
I don't feel that old.. but a person going into that age category is more than a mother/father figure, you're starting to look more like a grandmother/grandfather figure.
Is it NORMAL for a 50 something year old man to want to have sex with a 18 year old girl (or younger), let alone drug said individual?
Not me. And yes, I have been offered.. and "nobody" would ever have known..
I like playing the nutso squirrel.. but there are those who depend on my judgement.. I just couldn't betray that kind of trust, even as minimal as some may regard it.
no thanks..
so friggin gross. a fifty some old guy? We have this hair that starts growing out of our ears, our noses..
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
waysider
One of the bigger things I learned in PFAL-----------
A person can rationalize (or justify) just about anything in their own thinking if they really make the effort.
"Why didn't people just leave?"( Oldies question, paraphrased.)
Dunno, Oldies, why are you still there?
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excathedra
again, i don't think i chose him
i'm trying to remember..... he was drying his hair in the bathroom. he was totally nude and the door was open. he was looking in the mirror at himself and turned totally around to smile a "hi" to me
even the year before that i had gone to visit a friend of a friend out in the boonies and they (the whole family) all walked around naked. i don't know if that has anything to do with the price of eggs
--
but yes i loved him like a father (or you know, wishing i had had a good father)
but i didn't choose him at all for a sexual relationship
it happened once and it was horrifying. i think i posted on that already
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Shellon
Excath, you owe NOONE any explanations, reasonings, nothing!
That kind of shi+ is unbelievable and you have no reason to feel guilt, shame, remorse and clearly no cause to feel you have to respond to such cruelty.
Easy for me to say huh? But really, you can tell those that challenge you or suggest anything other than support to get thee behind you.
Amazing they even consider piling abuse on top of abuse and expect anyone to swallow.
They've earned my pity. But any attention is attention to them, just fools.
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excathedra
--
let me say one more time, i think it was very sick that he said he could heal me with the love of god from the childhood incest stuff
i'm smarter now
i'm sorry i wasn't then
i know shell but something inside me just wants to defend myself
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oldiesman
Is it possible he really thought that he could heal you from your childhood troubles? Is it possible he was making a sincere gesture?
I think it is. Maybe I'm wrong.
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waysider
You are.( not *just my opinion*)
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What The Hey
You mean - this isn't someone tooting their own horn here?
I say: Spare us from that self-righteous administration of justice you've hidden under the American Flag for yourself!
God spare us all from that lynch-mob, vigilante, phylospical justification of someone possessing superior virtue and thus becoming for themselves the imago dei (the image of God) on earth!!!
And you're trying to convince people here your moral standard is better than theirs?
No thanks. We had quite enough of that "moral standard" when we were in TWI!
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Ham
You've GOTTA be kidding..
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waysider
One could only hope so.
At least then there would be some kind of punch line to look forward to.
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Ham
I guess we just found out what some people meant when they said that people have no idea of what "we are capable of"..
Look what they did in world war two..
If they aren't the same dark entities, they sure can do a pretty good imitation..
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excathedra
i don't think so oldies. otherwise he wouldn't have had to get me against my will, not to mention a million other things
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oldiesman
That makes sense.
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anotherDan
I CANNOT believe I've read this whole thread! I admit to skim-reading certain parts, particularly once I got to know the players. :) Still took me eight hours, with only a short break to make and (sort of) enjoy a tuna sandwich and a glass of milk.
Lots of points were scored by both teams, and there were quite a few flags were thrown, and penalties. Wish this hadn't descended into the usual slugfest, but I do understand that there are a variety of needs to address. I'm sympathetic to the presumption of innocence (ala disciderator) and I also tend to use a little salt when confronted with even "eyewitness" testimony. I spent many years in TWI and had my ups and downs, and am surely changed for the experience. Still sorting out what was the baby and what the bathwater.
In recent years, my wife and I have been connected with a small "splinter" that took some bold directions, some of which I don't necessarily agree with, but I've hung around because generally people are commited to forbearance and in actually helping one another. The course changed at one point from a pronounced casting-out-of-spirits (ala Derek Prince) to "inner healing," which has a lot to do with revisiting past trauma, and "allowing" God into the process, in order to gain His light on some of the events that were pivotal in our lives.
Also, some years ago, God granted Liz and I a year or two where we visited a number of different churches, from mega-churches with the full orchestras, to little Pentacostal Holiness Deliverance Tabernacles. We've also visited a number of Quaker meetings (ask me sometime!) and of course, the baby was there, and plenty of bathwater, if you know what I mean.
We have a wonderful couple not far from us who have been hosting a fellowship to explore the Gospels. Some years ago, Anth0ny Buzzard visited here, and got a number of us thinking of the kingdom of God, and in particular, the teachings and ministry of Jesus. This was one of the things that got us revisiting the Gospels. I've since become convinced that dispensationalism is bad theology. It separates us from the teachings of Jesus, allowing us to ignore them as "addressed" to others. As Anthony might say (or Jesus himself), "you call him lord. Wouldn't it make sense to listen to what he says?" (I anticipate the retorts... I was a retorter, once, myself... try to stay out of that now.) Anyway, the group just started with Matthew 1:1, and after several years, they're just beginning the Gospel of John. They just go through as many of the verses that week as they like, and pick up the next week with the next verse. "Our" ranks are being "thinned" (thickened) with newcomers who never heard of TWI. As for Liz and myself, the only fellowship we host is once a month, on the first Friday, when we host communion at our home. Usually 4 or 5 people come, and sometimes we have a meal together. (You are welcome.... email me for directions!)
As I revisit here, and am reminded of the hurt people have to deal with, it saddens me greatly. It also saddens me to see those whose faith has been destoyed. I don't come here with the foolish notion that we can just talk about the good ol' days, how ever each of us might define them. This is a site that grew out of a fallen ministry, and one that, IMO, fell for good reason. God does not take it lightly when men get "high and mighty." TWI has become a nothing, and less than nothing. Mrs. Wierwille.... don't even get me started. Dr. Wierwille died before his accusers could get their bearings, apparently, but ultimately, God judges us all. Like "deciderator" I have a good deal of respect for our justice system, but obviously, it fails, and we have OJ still golfing. But he's in a prison of a different sort, as is LCM, who was not so "fortunate" as to have died before his accusers got their bearings!
Only once, after many many years in the ministry, was I aware of any sexual shenannigans by leadership. While I was in residence, a fellowcorpsmember told me of an advance that was made on her at the campus by a visiting "dignitary." Shortly after that, LCM started resisting CG's vision of how things should go, and our Corps Coordinators (the Mausolfs) left, and then nearly EVERYBODY we counted honest started leaving, and we finally left also. (Not that I condone CG's thing... nothing could be further from the truth.)
Regardless of fallible men and ministries, we're all still on a journey, and it's a journey of salvation. Many of the people here are "working out" that salvation, as am I. Some appear to have given up. But even those who have given up are still in God's hands, and what Jesus did for them (as well as for us, who call him "Lord") still abides.
The class was full of stuff I'd never considered before. Overall, the idea of approaching it honestly, and letting it "speak for itself" is one of the abiding principles I live by... of not coming to it with the "answers." But much of the class was just hogwash. Hogwash released by a sincere man, but you know, sincerety is just no guarantee for truth! Some of the things others have said they loved from the class seem like pure hogwash to me now. I agree with the poster that (so long ago) opined that TWI was a good thing gone bad. Maybe absolute power does corrupt absolutely. I'm convinced that success in ministry is as much a test of one's character as failure. (True in general life, as well.) I admire Rev. Billy Graham's growth as he matured. He actually got better with age, despite his success! His sermon/sharing after 9/11 in the National Cathedral was magnificent.
Anyway, folks, thanks for the perspective. I do pray, and I believe that you will find the healing you seek, and I'm thankful for this site, this opportunity to go back-and-forth on some of these issues. It certainly can help.
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WhiteDove
[quote name=Lifted Up'
Dove,
Yesterday morning Pond's quick response to my post included the statement, "no one is trustworthy in life? that is not going to get the job done at some point we just have to take a risk and decide for our own self who it will be or not"
Some people, including I...and including you on this thread...have attached importance to first hand testimony from real live non anonymous people. from an earlier post of yours...
_______________________________________________________
Is M's account not an eyewitness account? (She was there!)
It may be it may not be it is words on a screen by an anonymous person on the internet that showed up on a anti way site. No I do not accept everything I read on the net as truth it may be the gospel truth it may be biased BS who can know?
My point was that some who claimed to be able to verify the eyewitness account seem to be lacking in the story as being a eyewitness as I see it at best yes M would be an eyewitness I see no verification of the story by anyone else. other than second hand info and opinion.
________________________________________________________
You make a big point about not trusting anonymous accounts on the net and/or second hand information and opinions, and not trusting accounts where there is a lack of an eyewitess. Good. I have dome the same. By saying this, we are both therefore attaching great importance to real first hand accounts. When we do that, we are ready to accept the credibility of such accounts or we are lying hypocrites.
Many (too many ) years ago, in school, I had a teacher who showed a picture, I think it was on a bus or something and there were several people in the picture, and someone was wielding a knife, and there were other details I don't remember. Anyway, the teacher had one person look for a while at the picture, then describe it in as much detail as he could to someone else who had not seen the picture, who in turn relayed the description to someone else and about five time over that way. Of course by the time the last person related the description, it had completely changed.
So when we trust a first hand account, there is a lot of risks that we eliminate.
Now add this: If someone knows who you are, and you are telling them about a terrible personal experience that happened to YOU, exposing yourself to personal attacks and questions, but you go ahead and do it anyway, I think that falls into the category of trustable if ANYTHING does. Or, before you bring this up, if it DIDNT happen to you, would you lie about something like that and expose yourself for no reason?
We have some who proclaim that this is not a court of law, that our standards for finding out what really happened don't have to be that stringent, with those same people usually pointing out that the volume of talk overcomes this. My point is, from your reply...and I thank you for making it...you dont seem ready to accept even the first hand accounts from live non anonymous people that you earlier post attached so much importance to. In other words, why the talk about the accounts being second hand and anonymous if a personal first person non anonymous account of abuse wouldnt make any difference to you?
I guess I can see why I get some responses to my efforts such as I described in my earlier post.
I'm not sure I understand your questions but here goes Let me make this easy No one is trustworthy in life thats my new rule it comes from experiance not emotion in other words it does not matter to me if it is family, friend , someone I like ,or dislike that is irrelevant. They are all human you can present any account, story you want to me I'll assscess it the same if it is logical then it stands if there are holes and or questions in the account then you will need proof before I will accept it period . Thats the burden of truth. I don't care really if the account is firsthand secondhand or thirdhand it all gets the same treatment does it pass the critera for truth.
You dont seem ready to accept even the first hand accounts from live non anonymous people that you earlier post attached so much importance to. In other words, why the talk about the accounts being second hand and anonymous if a personal first person non anonymous account of abuse wouldnt make any difference to you?
It is pretty commen knowledge that the farther you get away from the source the more margin for error in a story there is, logically then the closer to the source the less chance there is. So in consideration there is a slightly more creditable level in accounts shared by the person involved. That does not mean they get a free pass from the criteria for truth though, they still must pass the test, as I indicated above. The reason anonymous accounts are more problematic are that it becomes more difficult to gets answers when looking for mystery person X as opposed to someone who would sign their name. In other words it is a lot easier to find Suzie Smith than Space cadet X. As you mentioned if one is willing to sign their name to something as well ,there is a level of responsibility to the work as it has your name on it. In this case I do understand the need for some not to do so or at least the reluctance to do so.
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T-Bone
Yeah…that reminds me of another "great" thing I learned in PFAL – the vickster's great moral standard, "Love God and your neighbor and you can do as you full well please." After all, anything done in the love of God is okay - - right?
"Father says I'm supposed to help myself to you…I mean…I myself should help you…here, have a drink, relax…sometimes these ministering sessions can get heavy…just relax and soak up God's love…it will just bless your panties off…I mean socks…it will just bless your socks off…Why, there's been women I've had...er...I've had...to help that were so blessed they can't even remember what happened here."
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minicorpse
it is exactly this kind of attitude that enabled so much abuse (sexual child abuse in my case) to go unchecked in TWI for decades.
i feel like i'm 5 years old again.
barf
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WordWolf
Supposing-just to humour Oldiesman- just supposing he was completely sincere-
"I genuinely want to bless you by drugging you and having sex with you when you lose consciousness,"
is this something that should be considered legal or moral behaviour?
Is it ok to drug and rape a woman IF ONE HAS GOOD INTENTIONS?
Or is that only ok if The Man Of God For Our Day And Time drugs and rapes a woman?
IS IT POSSIBLE that this is anything but unacceptable behaviour, ALWAYS?
IS IT POSSIBLE that he was a sick sexual predator who should have been put in prison for his crimes against women?
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doojable
And is it NORMAL for a 50 something year old man of the cloth to want to drug a girl and have sex with her?
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alfakat
my exact question, as well -- is this ok with everybody, is it cool, no biggie????
oh, but WD says even though literally dozens over the years on Waydale and GreaseSpot have confirmed it, he just can't accept it.....
WD, you are pitiful
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Dot Matrix
White Dove I did go back and confront him with scripture. He told me (in so many words) that I was screwed up for trying to reprove him. He said, "Whatsoever things are pure... think on those things... To the pure ALL things are pure...."
Anyway, he was trying to tell me his SINNING was okay because he was pure and if I didn't SEE it that way then I was impure. You cannot fight that kind of logic. And the ONLY reason I am not among the rape victims is one day at HQS. God told me to get off grounds and not to sign out.
When I came back I was told VP was mad and looking for me, as he wanted to take me on a three-day trip to Indiana. That is how he got Excathedra. He got her on a trip cause you have to have something to drink at one point or another. I had previously told him "no," I had confronted him, and he was still determined..
Here is the thing Dove, you have been married. Were you ever hurt in that marriage? Did you leave the first time you were hurt? The first time you thought things were not right? Or did you keep going back trying to fix things because you thought your wife was special?
Why do women or men who are hit by their spouse, sit with their blackened eyes and blood filled noses and say, "He didn't mean it. He loves me. Things will get better."
Excathedra had seen something in the people who told her about Jesus. She saw hope and joy and she wanted some of it. Coming form a home full of horrors, one seeks a family environment. Why do you think “gangs” are so popular? There is a feeling of “family” we all seek and those of us who did not find it in our earthly homes look elsewhere. Surely you can see that.
Excath saw something she longed for in those young vibrant girls, and they told her they learned about love from this old guy “VPW”. Naturally, she wanted to meet him! It was like meeting the pope.
Just as you did not think of divorce the first time you saw something you didn’t like in your marriage – neither did she want to see “problems” with the “leader” of this group of new friends she just met.
And Marsha? Have you ever gone back to a gravesite because something is not finished and talked to a grave stone? Or sent flowers to the grave? That is not really rational.
It is so shocking to realize the guy you followed into the corps, the man you thought breathed words of life into your lost soul, the reason you skipped college and went into the corps is REALLY a creep. That you are almost pulled back for a second look – Did it happen?
When the married region guy crept into my bed (uninvited) and the next thing I know he was “in” me, I was shocked, traumatized. Face down I was waking up to the uninvited or expected act. My belief system was shaken! He was a Man who hours before taught Hot Bible.
I was so confused, I thought “Does he love me?”
“Are we going to date now?”
“What does this mean?”
“HE must have not meant to do this, he is a Man of God.”
I could not believe I was raped by him.
I went back the next day, in my confused and shocked state and I thanked him for coming. I should have called the police. But there was so much to loose. I had already left my house, my friends and family to be in TWI. It was my LIFE. If I acknowledged what happened to me then it was all a joke, a lie, it was nothing. Then, where did that leave all my deliverance in PFAL? Was that an illusion? I did tell on him to other ministry leaders -- so they had an area meeting (they would not let me attend) and told everyone I was possessed. Then, tried to push me to suicide - after all it is better to loose one, so the team can continue on.
So, I wanted to tell VPW about this guy and the GIRL who was also involved in pimping women. When he sent for me I thought it was my chance to save the ministry from these “devils” he had in power. Only, he was naked and asked me …. I said no, and mentally lost my mind for a moment. Then, this stuff on the field would not be stopped by him – he perpetuated it.
So, if you will for one moment become human, without the walking billboard of thinking positives about VP, trying not to let our words touch your memory of him, and what you think he was. Can you for one minute understand people are not robots. To think these girls should have said "no", or walked away, or stayed out of harms way, would work if we were robots. But we are complex humans. We run into burning buildings to save screaming children, we believe a husband is going to stop beating us, or that the man who taught us PFAL can’t be bad. So, we walk back into a situation cause we can’t believe it, or because we are tormented by what we saw – or confused by what broke in us.
We go back for the same reasons you and your wife did not divorce the FIRST time you had a fight. We hope for the best, we get confused by things that are so outrageous they cannot be true -- but they are, we don't want to hurt, we want to fix things. We are so shaken it, is an effort to breath, let alone think and act rationally. We are shocked and devastated. Didn't you ever have your heart break? Surely you have been confused when your heart broke. Can't you be as kind to Marsha, Excath, Catcup or me?
Imagine, being raped by VPW. Really imagine waking up with him next to you naked, all you know is you had a drink and now you know this man "took" you sexually. How rational are you going to be? Are you going to kill him? Beat him up? Act like it didn't happen? Or enjoy it and become a groupie as different people respond differently. There is no normal way to respond to this, please give Marsha a break.
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skyrider
Wierwille was born December 31, 1916........so if my math is correct, he was 58 years old when he was trying to "get girls" in his motorcoach in 1975.
And, what's this crap about father-figure???
He11......more like A GROPING GRANDPA........and much worse.
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doojable
I'm sorry, but the sheer idiocy of this statment befuddles me. I keep trying not to comment on it since so many others have already. I can't be silent any longer.
Oldies, just tell me how this makes sense in your world. You think that by having sex with her he would heal her of her childhood troubles?!!! WTF?
Let me say that again for emphasis:
WTF??!!
So by that logic:
I was burned very badly as a child, someone should set me on fire to take care of that scar.
I broke my leg when I was 5 - maybe you better amputate it since it sometimes aches when it rains.
I broke a tooth as a teen and I was teased. So now maybe you should remove all my teeth and send me out in public.
Yeah...right....THAT would heal me.
That Kool-aid must have been pretty strong.
Just what Gospels have you been reading?
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Ham
hmm. I'm fifty..
ya know, at that stage in life a person is old enough to be a grandparent.
I don't feel that old.. but a person going into that age category is more than a mother/father figure, you're starting to look more like a grandmother/grandfather figure.
Is it NORMAL for a 50 something year old man to want to have sex with a 18 year old girl (or younger), let alone drug said individual?
Not me. And yes, I have been offered.. and "nobody" would ever have known..
I like playing the nutso squirrel.. but there are those who depend on my judgement.. I just couldn't betray that kind of trust, even as minimal as some may regard it.
no thanks..
so friggin gross. a fifty some old guy? We have this hair that starts growing out of our ears, our noses..
I should know
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Ham
on top of that.. if I don't take a shower twice a day, especially in the summer my odor resembles that of a goat..
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