A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL

[Lifted Up]

That's a fair question lifted up of course we all would like to trust others words but the reality is people fail you ,the way failed people those who said they loved and cared about you turned their backs faster than a New York minute. Family fails people at times even husbands and wives people at your job. Words are empty, temporal because people don't see black and white it is too easy to weasel out of your words. Honestly I may accept their account at face value if I felt that the facts supported it but I would never verify it people lie and some are very good at it. They have agendas to accomplish without proof hard evidence it will always be a guess there would be no way to be sure.

Dove,

Yesterday morning Pond's quick response to my post included the statement, "no one is trustworthy in life? that is not going to get the job done at some point we just have to take a risk and decide for our own self who it will be or not"

Some people, including I...and including you on this thread...have attached importance to first hand testimony from real live non anonymous people. from an earlier post of yours...

_______________________________________________________

Is M's account not an eyewitness account? (She was there!)

It may be it may not be it is words on a screen by an anonymous person on the internet that showed up on a anti way site. No I do not accept everything I read on the net as truth it may be the gospel truth it may be biased BS who can know?

My point was that some who claimed to be able to verify the eyewitness account seem to be lacking in the story as being a eyewitness as I see it at best yes M would be an eyewitness I see no verification of the story by anyone else. other than second hand info and opinion.

________________________________________________________

You make a big point about not trusting anonymous accounts on the net and/or second hand information and opinions, and not trusting accounts where there is a lack of an eyewitess. Good. I have dome the same. By saying this, we are both therefore attaching great importance to real first hand accounts. When we do that, we are ready to accept the credibility of such accounts or we are lying hypocrites.

Many (too many ) years ago, in school, I had a teacher who showed a picture, I think it was on a bus or something and there were several people in the picture, and someone was wielding a knife, and there were other details I don't remember. Anyway, the teacher had one person look for a while at the picture, then describe it in as much detail as he could to someone else who had not seen the picture, who in turn relayed the description to someone else and about five time over that way. Of course by the time the last person related the description, it had completely changed.

So when we trust a first hand account, there is a lot of risks that we eliminate.

Now add this: If someone knows who you are, and you are telling them about a terrible personal experience that happened to YOU, exposing yourself to personal attacks and questions, but you go ahead and do it anyway, I think that falls into the category of trustable if ANYTHING does. Or, before you bring this up, if it DIDNT happen to you, would you lie about something like that and expose yourself for no reason?

We have some who proclaim that this is not a court of law, that our standards for finding out what really happened don't have to be that stringent, with those same people usually pointing out that the volume of talk overcomes this. My point is, from your reply...and I thank you for making it...you dont seem ready to accept even the first hand accounts from live non anonymous people that you earlier post attached so much importance to. In other words, why the talk about the accounts being second hand and anonymous if a personal first person non anonymous account of abuse wouldnt make any difference to you?

I guess I can see why I get some responses to my efforts such as I described in my earlier post.

[oldiesman]

Probably the same reason you stayed for YEARS, after being reduced to a pile of sobbing rubble who couldn't leave your room for days..

I always wanted to ask.. why DID you stay?

Mr. Hammeroni, apples and oranges, her situation and mine was totally different. I was dismissed from the 6 corps for doing bad stuff. The dismissal by Craig was justified, although at the time, I thought it was unfair. It wasn't. I shouldn't have been there.

[Tom Strange]

Excathedra, after Dr. Wierwille exposed himself to you, why did you hang around The Way International and Dr. Wierwille for years and years after?

Oldies, did you miss the part about TWI being a mind controlling cult?

In fact there are still some around here who's minds are still under TWI's grips (only they don't know it).

So... it was apples and oranges huh? you were dismissed, you didn't understand it and sobbed and cried and were totally distraught AT THE TIME... how do you think if, instead of dismissing you, LCM just bent you over and raped you? ...or slipped you a mickey and raped you?

I'm sure you'd appreciate some idiot asking you that question up there in quotes 25 years after it happened... along with trying to denigrate your experience while escalating your rapist to a position of worship...

I guess I understand you better now... YOU WERE DISMISSED. YOU DIDN'T LEAVE BECAUSE YOU "WOKE UP"... AND YOU'VE BEEN TRYING TO GET BACK IN, TO RECAPTURE THE MAGIC ever since... the way you behave still doesn't make sense to a thoughtful, caring person... but I think I'm beginning to see where you're coming from...

[oldiesman]

Calm down Tom, my question was a legitimate one.

So then when Dr. Wierwille exposed himself to Excathedra, she couldn't leave at that point because TWI was a mind controlling cult?

[doojable]

There is a reason why vpw chose these women carefully.

There is a reason why he had every one of us write a paper entitled, "The Way For Me - From Birth to the Corps"

Predators like to chose their victims.

He chose his victims and his Yes-men, apparently he chose the latter even better than even he expected...

[oldiesman]

There is a reason why vpw chose these women carefully.

The way Excathedra describes the story, she wasn't in very long, before VPW exposes himself to her. Doesn't seem like she was chosen very carefully there. She wasn't in TWI long at all. Why didn't she just leave after witnessing that disgusting display?

In fact, contrary to VPW choosing her, it appears SHE chose HIM!

Edited August 1, 2007 by oldiesman

[Ham]

Mr. Hammeroni, apples and oranges, her situation and mine was totally different. I was dismissed from the 6 corps for doing bad stuff. The dismissal by Craig was justified, although at the time, I thought it was unfair. It wasn't. I shouldn't have been there.

more like tangerines and oranges. In both cases, people were traumatized. Only one worse than the other.

So I re-issue the question: why did YOU stay?

[Tom Strange]

Calm down Tom, my question was a legitimate one.

So then when Dr. Wierwille exposed himself to Excathedra, she couldn't leave at that point because TWI was a mind controlling cult?

well... all I can say to that is "DUH!"...

[oldiesman]

Well that's pretty easy to answer. I really did receive great learning from PFAL and twig, my two WOW years, and thought that TWI was the best fellowship around. I was involved in some very good fellowships with some great people. Also, since my entire family was involved in twi, it was easy for me to hang out for years I suppose.

Edited August 1, 2007 by oldiesman

[exwaycorps]

eye·wit·ness

–noun 1. a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing and can give a firsthand account of it: There were two eyewitnesses to the murder.

–verb (used with object) 2. to view with one's own eyes: to eyewitness a murder.

White Dove (symbol of PEACE right?) WHATEVER

Given the definition above. (eye*wit*ness) .

I'm wondering.

How in the world did you ever come to believe the Bible,and even quote it ???

It has no eye*wit*ness*es. They're all gone.

You believe it because.... POSSIBLY you've seen the fruit of it. Results, Lives changing ,growth etc.

Well guess what?

It's the same for us.

On this... and many other matters.

We were all taught to look for the fruit of something.(good OR bad)

Like I said before. I never SAW "the act" with my own eyes BUT I saw the "fruit" ,(spoiled) ,of that act in the form of a destroyed beautiful, smart, life-loving WOMAN OF GOD.

She was SIXTH CORPS BABY! (that was important once)

My (once) fearless family co-ordinator and branch leader, The one "in charge" of all us wow's.

Then...

She became a quivering,trembling,sobbing mass on the floor DAILY.

What was it ???

bad hair day???

I DON'T THINK SO...!

I KNOW WHAT IT WAS.

I sincerely hope that nobody you love EVER experiences something like this without an eye*wit*ness.

Apparently you'd NEVER believe them.

FYI eye*wit*ness accounts are NOT the only thing that's taken into consideration in a court case (which this is NOT).

I know, internet scams are a dime a dozen. Nameless ,faceless, people "pulling the wool" every day.

Do you really think that all of us, from ALL over the country,most of whom have never met in person, decided one day to get together, make up a character, name her Marsha, put it up on the internet, fool people ,and have a laugh? Just to make "the ministry" look bad ???

THEY DON'T NEED US FOR THAT. THEY DID JUST FINE.

What's our angle??

It's not like were charging admission.

What have YOU got to lose by showing a little compassion?????????

Would it hurt you somehow???

"she could have left" ... "she had the chance"..."her mistake"

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO SAY ANY OF THAT??

You did not see her state... I DID! Who knows what she was thinking. It's not even relevent.

IT WASN'T HER FAULT !! GET IT ??

Calling yourself "white dove"...

how pleasant,warm and christian that sounds.

Like a breath of fresh air.

All the while casting MORE doubt and MORE shame on a great woman of GOD... who you never even knew!!!

I knew her then... and by what I've seen from you... "White Dove"...YOU are not fit to wear her shoes.

thankyouverymuch!

please remember to tip your wait staff!!

Edited August 1, 2007 by exwaycorps

[Tom Strange]

The way Excathedra describes the story, she wasn't in very long, before VPW exposes himself to her. Doesn't seem like she was chosen very carefully there. She wasn't in TWI long at all. Why didn't she just leave after witnessing that disgusting display?

In fact, contrary to VPW choosing her, it appears SHE chose HIM!

Very callous Oldies, even for you...

So... it seems to me that you have come to the realization that veepee DID do these things, you just wonder why people "stayed around"....

I've got an even bigger dilemma here: People who know that veepee did these things and still defend the man...

...and yet you still deny the "mind controlling cult" part of the theory?

(there's a mirror over there son, go take a look in it)

[exwaycorps]

The way Excathedra describes the story, she wasn't in very long, before VPW exposes himself to her. Doesn't seem like she was chosen very carefully there. She wasn't in TWI long at all. Why didn't she just leave after witnessing that disgusting display?

In fact, contrary to VPW choosing her, it appears SHE chose HIM!

WTF oldies???????????

you've got some brass ones mister!!!!!!!!

[Ham]

Well that's pretty easy to answer. I really did receive great learning from PFAL and twig, my two WOW years, and thought that TWI was the best fellowship around. I was involved in some very good fellowships with some great people. Also, since my entire family was involved in twi, it was easy for me to hang out for years I suppose.

So.. not laying blame on any one individual, you are saying that you had a good reason, despite being reduced to what might be described as a near psychotic episode, which you did recover from, brought on by involvement in a "christian" organization.

add the fact that the whole family was involved..

I wonder.. what did the rest of the family think? Were they concerned? Have questions?

I know I would have.

If my kid came home, holed up in a room, and wouldn't talk for days, I'd have a few concerns..

[doojable]

The way Excathedra describes the story, she wasn't in very long, before VPW exposes himself to her. Doesn't seem like she was chosen very carefully there. She wasn't in TWI long at all. Why didn't she just leave after witnessing that disgusting display?

In fact, contrary to VPW choosing her, it appears SHE chose HIM!

oldies - you are completely ignorant on these matters. You lack compassion.

Apparently, one of the big things you learned was how to be a Pharisee...

[JustThinking]

I'm not much of a math person but the numbers here are staggering. It wasn't just one person who admits they stayed WAY too long. There are more here than I can count. Statistically, the evidence is overwhelming. There was strong outside influence not just poor choices.

(Submitted with humility by the Discoverer Of Obvious Data Dat's Obviously Obvious or DOODOO)

JT

Edited August 1, 2007 by JustThinking

[oldiesman]

I wonder.. what did the rest of the family think? Were they concerned? Have questions?

I know I would have.

Well when they found out why I was dismissed, which was about a day after arriving home, there was nothing much to do. If you knew what I did, you'd agree, there are no excuses, no blame, no finger pointing. I blew it.

[T-Bone]

The way Excathedra describes the story, she wasn't in very long, before VPW exposes himself to her. Doesn't seem like she was chosen very carefully there. She wasn't in TWI long at all. Why didn't she just leave after witnessing that disgusting display?

In fact, contrary to VPW choosing her, it appears SHE chose HIM!

Actually, a choice is made by each of us at some point early on in our TWI involvement – we choose to trust the teacher and contents of PFAL. Thereafter, our choices are based on assuming all that is reliable, trustworthy, of God – and any choice other than one that honors the teacher or PFAL is wrong! That is the fine art of deception! That is the power of manipulation! Obviously, those who still have PFAL/vpw poison in their heads are not going to see through the TWI mind games...I do not fault any of the women molested by Pervertwille - I fault the little kingdom started by PFAL/vpw.

Edited August 1, 2007 by T-Bone

[WhiteDove]

eye·wit·ness

–noun 1. a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing and can give a firsthand account of it: There were two eyewitnesses to the murder.

–verb (used with object) 2. to view with one's own eyes: to eyewitness a murder.

White Dove (symbol of PEACE right?) WHATEVER

Like I said I was not the one sticking my face out looking all important and declaring that I was an eyewitness now was I? If your gonna make the claim you better be alble to back it up.

Given the definition above. (eye*wit*ness) .

I'm wondering.

How in the world did you ever come to believe the Bible,and even quote it ???

It has no eye*wit*ness*es. They're all gone.

Ex Way Corps perhaps it is a good thing that you are. Apparently you have forgotten that the Bible is not an account written by men but rather All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: He is not human and therefore does not need an eyewitness although we do have one

Romans 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

You believe it because.... POSSIBLY you've seen the fruit of it. Results, Lives changing ,growth etc.

Boy you are rusty experience is no guarantee for truth remember? No I believe because God said it , that settles it.

Well guess what?

It's the same for us.

On this... and many other matters.

We were all taught to look for the fruit of something.(good OR bad)

Like I said before. I never SAW "the act" with my own eyes BUT I saw the "fruit" ,(spoiled) ,of that act in the form of a destroyed beautiful, smart, life-loving WOMAN OF GOD.

She was SIXTH CORPS BABY! (that was important once)

That's Too bad, you might wanna reevaluate it again sometime perhaps at least some parts of it need to be important once again?

My (once) fearless family co-ordinator and branch leader, The one "in charge" of all us wow's.

Then...

She became a quivering,trembling,sobbing mass on the floor DAILY.

What was it ???

bad hair day???

I DON'T THINK SO...!

I KNOW WHAT IT WAS.

I sincerely hope that nobody you love EVER experiences something like this without an eye*wit*ness.

Apparently you'd NEVER believe them.

FYI eye*wit*ness accounts are NOT the only thing that's taken into consideration in a court case (which this is NOT).

I know, internet scams are a dime a dozen. Nameless ,faceless, people "pulling the wool" every day.

Do you really think that all of us, from ALL over the country,most of whom have never met in person, decided one day to get together, make up a character, name her Marsha, put it up on the internet, fool people ,and have a laugh? Just to make "the ministry" look bad ???

THEY DON'T NEED US FOR THAT. THEY DID JUST FINE.

What's our angle??

It's not like were charging admission.

I always explore all the options even if some don't pan out to be true. Revenge is a powerful motive so is people wronged I can't discount the fact that it is a possibility. Any company knows that bad press is the worst thing that can happen to them PR can make or break you . What better way to break them ? That would be my choice if that was my mission.

What have YOU got to lose by showing a little compassion?????????

Would it hurt you somehow???

"she could have left" ... "she had the chance"..."her mistake"

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO SAY ANY OF THAT??

I just examined the record it appears from her account that she was free and clear safe in her car flinging gravel on the motor coach I think were her words that means she was not restrained or controlled, that's the facts I did not write the book so to speak. Is that not what it said? You can't have drugged and could not respond as some implied and harmonize it with in the car flinging gravel. I went with her account I figured she would know. Do you doubt what she said there? It appears to me she was responding is that not what you see?

You did not see her state... I DID! Who knows what she was thinking. It's not even relevent.

IT WASN'T HER FAULT !! GET IT ??

Calling yourself "white dove"...

how pleasant,warm and christian that sounds.

Like a breath of fresh air.

By the way I also answer to Black Dove as well... just for the recordAll the while casting MORE doubt and MORE shame on a great woman of GOD... who you never even knew!!!

I knew her then... and by what I've seen from you... "White Dove"...YOU are not fit to wear her shoes.

thankyouverymuch!

Thank you very much as well!

please remember to tip your wait staff!!

Of course............

Edited August 1, 2007 by WhiteDove

[Suda]

Man, can't wait till I have time to respond to all of this.

In rape court cases, when the only two eyewitness are the rapist and the victim, "second hand" testimony is gathered from those who were in contact with the victim, what she said, what she did, how she acted, etc. From this, the jury makes a decision on who to believe, him or her, as to whether it was consentual or rape. I know, been there, done that, hope to God I never am again. And yeah, I got the t-shirt, but felt too dirty, ashamed, guilty, confused, any emotion you can think of to be able to be able to "wear it", i.e., openly and comfortably talk about it, for years. And it was a STRANGER who broke into my apartment - not someone I respected and trusted. What I went through was horrid, what they went through was "horrid times a gazillion". One gives you nightmares, the other shatters your heart, steals your soul, and yeah, there are nightmares. But the nightmares are nothing in comparison to the rape of the heart and soul.

Ever heard the term "preponderence of evidence" - not from eyewitnesses, but circumstantial evidence, like from "second hand" witnesses.

Suda

[johniam]

Jesus was a victim of murder. is that not an example of love ? he didnt wake up that morning and say geez this will be a good day he had alot of pain and turmoil knowing He would suffer and die. and his brothers slept and didnt have a clue how to help him even when He asked them to pray they wouldnt sleep was better.

would you consider Jesus christ a victim?

he suffered and told a great many tales of woe and misery betrayal all of it.

No, I would not. I consider him the greatest victor in all of history. What are these tales of woe, misery, and betrayal you claim he told? His followers told them on his behalf, but I don't know of any that he told.

[minicorpse]

In fact, contrary to VPW choosing her, it appears SHE chose HIM!

excuse me while i go barf now...

oldies you make me sick.

[waysider]

A blanket question for apologists in general:

(Hypothetical, of course)

Suppose, for a moment, God gave you revelation that went waaaaay beyond the old *small, still voice*,that 'TWI was a scam and VeePee was a sham'.(But there was no clear cut Word of Wisdom on what to do with it)

What would you do?

A. Shout it from the rooftops?

B. Keep it to yourself?(people are sure to slam you for speaking it.)

C. Ask your twig leader because he/she is your spiritual mentor?

D. Chalk it up as an "unrenewed mind" experience?

E. Walk away from TWI and never look back?

BUT WAIT!

There's another alternative.-----

Refuse to even consider it might be genuine.

Yeah, yeah, that must be the correct answer.

After all, the Devil himself got Eve to consider what God had said and she wound up in deep doo-doo.

At least that's what the Dr. said in PFAL.

Nope.

Never consider that something might not be as you first had thought it to be.

That could leave you standing in deep doo-doo, like Eve.

OR---------Maybe FAILURE to consider it might leave you standing in deep doo-doo.

Guess you should go with *refusing to consider it*.

That's from PFAL----------------Refusing to consider it, that is.

---(session #7, for all the documentation sticklers.)

[Lifted Up]

Man, can't wait till I have time to respond to all of this.

In rape court cases, when the only two eyewitness are the rapist and the victim, "second hand" testimony is gathered from those who were in contact with the victim, what she said, what she did, how she acted, etc. From this, the jury makes a decision on who to believe, him or her, as to whether it was consentual or rape. I know, been there, done that, hope to God I never am again. And yeah, I got the t-shirt, but felt too dirty, ashamed, guilty, confused, any emotion you can think of to be able to be able to "wear it", i.e., openly and comfortably talk about it, for years. And it was a STRANGER who broke into my apartment - not someone I respected and trusted. What I went through was horrid, what they went through was "horrid times a gazillion". One gives you nightmares, the other shatters your heart, steals your soul, and yeah, there are nightmares. But the nightmares are nothing in comparison to the rape of the heart and soul.

Ever heard the term "preponderence of evidence" - not from eyewitnesses, but circumstantial evidence, like from "second hand" witnesses.

Suda

yea, I've heard of it. Among other things, it was the difference between OJ's criminal and civil cases. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard in a criminal case, I believe.

But I am still waiting to hear from Dove on his apparent reluctance to believe even first hand testimony if he had it.

Edited August 1, 2007 by Lifted Up

[WhiteDove]

Man, can't wait till I have time to respond to all of this.

In rape court cases, when the only two eyewitness are the rapist and the victim, "second hand" testimony is gathered from those who were in contact with the victim, what she said, what she did, how she acted, etc. From this, the jury makes a decision on who to believe, him or her, as to whether it was consentual or rape. I know, been there, done that, hope to God I never am again. And yeah, I got the t-shirt, but felt too dirty, ashamed, guilty, confused, any emotion you can think of to be able to be able to "wear it", i.e., openly and comfortably talk about it, for years. And it was a STRANGER who broke into my apartment - not someone I respected and trusted. What I went through was horrid, what they went through was "horrid times a gazillion". One gives you nightmares, the other shatters your heart, steals your soul, and yeah, there are nightmares. But the nightmares are nothing in comparison to the rape of the heart and soul.

Ever heard the term "preponderence of evidence" - not from eyewitnesses, but circumstantial evidence, like from "second hand" witnesses.

Suda

Exacty my point Suda they don't call themselves eyewitnesses when in fact they are not. I have no problem with preponderence of evidence just don't try to palm it off as firsthand accounts or eyewitness be honest and say my take my opinion my version ect. Second hand information as you put it. I would point out again as I did to Garth if we are using the trial analogy the jury is slightly rigged

Quote:

In regard to your court comments these accounts have not been tried in any court yet you treat them like they have, you have ruled them case closed solved without the benefit of trial. Before anyone gets their panties in a wad I'm not asking or even suggesting that they need to be either. Only that it is possible just maybe that all the facts have not been presented. even in court we do get the benefit of hearing from both sides after all, a luxury we will not get here in this case.

Is one sided testimony a part of your court as well? Would that fly as you say? Doubtful..... How can one really render a fair and balanced verdict hearing one side would you like those odds if you were on trial? Doubtful.

Well Garth if you only side with those who think like you ,only allow them to be on your jury(are there any of the thousands of non greasespot exways on that jury I think not.) and only allow the prosecuting side to testify in the trial then YES you have a skewed justice system. That's not rocket science to figure that out. I only asked that people don't claim to be something they are not just to make their case an eyewitness is what it is by definition, and verifying requires that you have evidence not opinion, best guess ,suspicion, I like you, I don't like you or a variety of other things as your base for verification.

Edited August 1, 2007 by WhiteDove

[excathedra]

The way Excathedra describes the story, she wasn't in very long, before VPW exposes himself to her. Doesn't seem like she was chosen very carefully there. She wasn't in TWI long at all. Why didn't she just leave after witnessing that disgusting display?

In fact, contrary to VPW choosing her, it appears SHE chose HIM!

i really didn't choose him, i don't even know what to say, it's such a mean thing to say to me. it's a horrible thought. what do you even mean ? why would i choose him and what would i choose him for ?

--

after he exposed himself, the girl undershepherding me talked to me for a long time and explained how he is so spiritual and nakedness is like nothing to him, it's just the flesh, i don't know, like he was above it all

and i didn't have a good sense of boundaries at all. i had been sexually molested by an older male relative

believe it or not, i looked at him as a father figure. how stupid, but it's true

and then when he sat and talked to me about the incest, he held my hand and cried with me, etc., and told me stuff that god wanted for me (which included him teaching me). it was such a hard time. part of me looked at him like he like a father, maybe even the pope, so to speak, and another part of me just couldn't understand that kind of "love"

of course now, i would never stay or buy the spiritual reasoning, but i did then

i hope that answers your question, oldies

it's all i can give at the moment

my queen duties call

and i don't think i'll ever feel the same about you since you said it seems like i chose him