and say geez this is really a shame ya know not Gods will at all !!!! I know because my own brother lived through cancer and God wanted him alive and by the way sorry about your son. to bad this happened and all but it isnt God will the devil is nasty and well im sure glad my own brother didnt bite the big one ! blah blah
i for one I guess have made mistakes in life. Im glad life went so smooth for you that you never had to say OH CRAP I WAS wrong on that one! Just what do you need the grace of God for then?
it didnt go as planned and believe it or not at times I have been at the very mercy of what OTHERS have done to me.
guess what? people i love got hurt badly innocent people who didnt deserve my own ignorance or stupid choices GOT HURT and I think it should hurt every single darn time I look in the mirror so much it will not happen again!!!!
it hurts enough for me to get on my knees and pray every single day prauy for forgivness and for strength and for wisdom .
still.
No one said people don't make mistakes we all do I just choose to admit mine and not blame someone else for them, or at least my part in them. and whether life goes good or bad makes no difference when you know you did your best to stand on what you believe. I always say well, they may beat me down, they may slow me down, they may hurt or even kill me but they will never break me. If it's not Gods Word then it's got to go, consequences are of no consideration to me. They might make life hell but my father is there with me. I'm sorry that those who should have lived by It Is Written failed to see the importance when life got tough. That’s not a judgment that is looking at the facts did they or did they not follow scripture.
On Friday I got some scary news. It involved my health and was written in such a way that I wasn't sure where I stood and how my life and the lives of my girls would be affected by it. I wasn't sure if I had reason to be concerned or not - and I didn't want to have the "Pollyanna La La La everything is beautiful, don't fear" attitude. I also didn't want to accept what I feared - because I really thought that ultimately I had nothing to fear.
The truth is that I was afraid. I was terrified. No matter what amount of mental wrangling I did I just couldn't shake off that fear that I was going to be very sick
I found out today that I'm fine.
Here's what I'm thinking -
Fear is a natural reaction to things that threaten us and our loved ones. We were designed to respond to things this way.
I'm just wondering how many people got real, real, real sick because they tried to "just believe" they were well? How many people never went to a doctor because that would "open the door for the Adversary?"
We learned to ignore what GOD designed to help us.
and say geez this is really a shame ya know not Gods will at all !!!! I know because my own brother lived through cancer and God wanted him alive and by the way sorry about your son. to bad this happened and all but it isnt God will the devil is nasty and well im sure glad my own brother didnt bite the big one ! blah blah
I think white dove believes these girls could have said NO and i also believe they could have said NO.
but i do not get what his point is either. is it to blame the girls who had sex because they had sex as well as the man ?
so it is BOTH of them that is wrong. ok.
The point started pages back it is always the same speak truth don't make s**t up......... your opinion may or may not be truth that does not mean it verifies anything it means that you believe it .
Too bad she didn`t walk away??? Did you even READ the account??? That she was probably drugged?? That John Lynn himself told her that it had been happening for years???
Jonny....You don`t just *walk away* after being drugged....your faculties are not entirely present...(Gee ... ya SUPPOSE that is why they had to drug the girls ? )...an entirely different situation than was with the oft presented scenario with your wife resisting a little temptation...Geeeze ....damned right she had a choice, luckily for her....it wasn`t the preadator vpw that had her in his sights and geer with his drink to facilitate .
As I pointed out in her own story It appears from her story that she did in fact have a chance to walk away. read her account:
Two days later Cathy came to get me. I followed her to the camp where VP's motor coach was parked. The front of the motor coach was a sitting area and a table, both made into beds. He appeared to like the gifts we brought and poured himself a drink. Cathy, Howard and I also had one. VP then went into the back of the coach. He called me back there. He had undressed and was lying nude, face down on one of the two beds in the rear of the coach. He asked me to give him a back rub. Odd as it sounds, I did not find this at all strange. Back rubs were very common with the Corp and WOW's. While he was laying face down I gave him a rub from head to toe. He rolled over on his back and indicated I should continue, so I gave him a rub again from head to toe, except for his genitals.
When I was done, he looked at me and said, "You are not finished."
I was sitting on the side of the bed. I looked at my hands that were laying palm up in my lap and I started to jabber. That is really the only word for it. I began to talk in a sing song voice about Greg. I told him all I could think of to say about Greg. When I fell silent he smiled at me and said, " That's nice, now go on." And I did.
I cannot tell you everything that happened next; (the reason will become evident). But later, (much later for when this started it was light outside and it had been dark for a long, long time) he told me to get into the other bed. As I was climbing over him he smacked me on my bare bottom and said, "I didn't screw you, but it wouldn't have hurt you if I had."
I got into the other bed and laid there with my eyes wide open, not blinking, but with silent tears running out, until
day light. When it was light, I got dressed and went out to my car. I was in a rage. I spun the tires of my car until I had flung all the gravel, grass and dirt beneath them onto the motor coach and I roared out of there.
That was the first time.
She had left and was free and clear drug free, she returned to be alone knowing what had transpired, I think one has to accept a level of personal accountability for putting oneself in harms way. She was not drugged when she returned she walked in of her own power. That does not excuse what happened or make it justifiable in any way but it does not by the same token excuse the truth that she did have a way out and was not drugged and had no options as insinuated. No one is blaming anyone here just keeping the truth of the record straight.
She had left and was free and clear drug free, she returned to be alone knowing what had transpired, I think one has to accept a level of personal accountability for putting oneself in harms way.
Fear is a natural reaction to things that threaten us and our loved ones. We were designed to respond to things this way.
I'm just wondering how many people got real, real, real sick because they tried to "just believe" they were well? How many people never went to a doctor because that would "open the door for the Adversary?"
There's a moral, ethical and legal responsibility for "clergy" in a church to NOT take sexual advantages of women in their congregation...They are at a decided advantage. They were BOTH wrong?...you outta rethink that...doesn't the bible say something about what will happen to shepards who f* ck their own sheep?
I just don`t understand this insane need to marginalize and minimalize what these men and their pimps did. I don`t understand why the need to savage the then young innocent teens ... questioning their veracity, their judgement.....who were DRUGGED and RAPED...others who were DECEIVED and SEDUCED....by men claiming that it was their spiritual RIGHT and others spiritual DUTY to comply.
Yet where is the outrage that ought to be directed at these monsters who perpetrated these heinous acts.
These men rather than the benevolent shepherds, caring for the flock??? Do they not more fit the description of ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour??? The false prophets that deceived in God`s name to fill the lusts of their bellies???
I have a question for all of you guys....Dove, oldies, Jonny, Do any of you have teen aged daughters??? Do you have any idea how naieve and trusting that they are? How willing to please? How reluctant to hurt???
There is a reason that they are vulnerable...why they need our protection....why it is a felony as an adult male to have sex with them.
The deserve our protection and guidance as the precious at time fragile young souls that they are.
Excathedra, I am so sorry. I don`t understand this insane need to make the victims of these monsters look like the criminals here. I don`t get it, I cannot understand the insane need to portray that filthy human debris....in a positive light:(
I get it man I do as I worked through my own mess trust me i had to do alot of personal work on how and why I made the choices I did.
if we are adults I believe we all do that if we are honest and want to understand.
But even with bad choices what happened was at the hand of another person and their choice to harm another.
that I did not know about.
what is your point?
to keep the record straight?
ok so the word rape is to strong of a word for you, would you consider it consentual sex? two adults and 17 is a legal age to have sex in many states having sex and one with regrets?
I just don`t understand this insane need to marginalize and minimalize what these men and their pimps did. I don`t understand why the need to savage the then young innocent teens ... questioning their veracity, their judgement.....who were DRUGGED and RAPED...others who were DECEIVED and SEDUCED....by men claiming that it was their spiritual RIGHT and others spiritual DUTY to comply.
Yet where is the outrage that ought to be directed at these monsters who perpetrated these heinous acts.
These men rather than the benevolent shepherds, caring for the flock??? Do they not more fit the description of ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour??? The false prophets that deceived in God`s name to fill the lusts of their bellies???
Rascal........I agree. These actions, from 55 year-old men, are nothing more than despicable deception and dominance. Just sickos with narcistic traits and predatory appetites.
False prophet seems to be an apt description.........deceiving, lying, conning, seducing, etc.
And, further.......it only backs up all evidence that wierwille STOLE his teaching material from others. Heck, he never worked it from the depth of the scriptures and "made it his own." And, as far as holy spirit stirring within him to bear witness of God's work wrought in his ministry........WHAT A CROCK.
There is so much I want to respond to on this thread, but am incredibly busy trying to get two children off to college in two weeks, and the other child is in 2-a-day football practices already. When I have the time, I will post. My lack of activity is not evidence of lack of interest or desire to participate, just inability at this time.
It's always amazing that when some have no real answers to the questions they drag out the tired old argument about who wrote what book like that has anything to do with the subject at hand, and how we have the insane need to marginalize and minimalize what these men and their pimps did. I guess its easier to change the subject and accuse people of something that the posts clearly show that they did not do. Go ahead read back through the pages I never marginalized or minimalized one thing in fact several posts I went out of the way to address that issue but I guess that's easy to ignore when you only want to see a negative slant to the story. I took exception with specific facts and words posted as they were being misrepresented. The first which I have yet to get back to is verify, this is what it means to do so :
1. to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate: Events verified his prediction.
2. to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison: to verify a spelling.
3. to act as ultimate proof or evidence of; serve to confirm.
4. Law. a. to prove or confirm (an allegation).
b. to state to be true, esp. in legal use, formally or upon oath.
If one verifies a check for instance the procedure is to call the bank issuing the check and confirm that the money is there in the account that is how it is verified. One does not call the teller who may or may not know me and ask them if in their opinion the check is good. They don't ask John Lynn if he thinks in his opinion my check might be good but I guess when dealing with Way issues logic goes out the window.
When you verify whether someone was drugged you do a toxicology report ,pending that as proof or verification you have no case to assume that due to your opinion on the case you can just decide that they were" just because". worse yet some think that due to some unknown training that they now have they can travel back through time and verify a case that they have no data secured from but hey John Lynn said he thinks that maybe that might have happened (of course after he was fired and lost his job he comes to this knowledge) so that settles that. GEE I guess I missed That's my opinion so that verifies anything I want as a definition of the word. Lacking the proper proof one can not validate or confirm something and Catcup your best guess does not count you have no evidence one way or another ,you can have your opinion all you want but that is what it is and that does not count as verifying something it counts as an opinion period. Honest people accept the fact that it could be either way as I did but somehow some defy all logic and have found the truth with out any evidence to get there.
Here is another word:
eye·wit·ness
–noun 1. a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing and can give a firsthand account of it: There were two eyewitnesses to the murder.
–verb (used with object) 2. to view with one's own eyes: to eyewitness a murder.
Notice absent is "the victim told me the story and so now I can verify it as the truth." that's not what the word means challenging the misuse dishonest use of that word neither marginalized or minimalized anyone it simply challenged the misuse of a word to support a personal opinion that was being passed off as truth. I think maybe someone missed a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing so Catcup you said you were an eyewitness to the incident with R**K were you standing there when it happened did you actually see or hear the proposition because that is what an eyewitness is. How about the rest of you., If not then one can not say they can verify anything in that situation, you have an opinion which is your prerogative but that is not the same as fact or truth. I seemed to miss the part in M's story where any of you were along that night. So quit trying to pass yourself off as some authority that you are not. By the same standard I was not an eyewitness either which is why I must acknowledge that the story may or may not be true. I can have an opinion ,one way or the other and for the record again I would lean toward it being true but it verifies nothing, (that has does not marginalize or minimalize anyone either by the way) It is pretty sad that your need to portray the TWI in a negative light has led you to fabricate new meanings for words and ignore common logic. Sorry this is not I can just make s**t up day.
Usually, I seem to find myself in the middle of discussions like this. This thread hits me like a Kurt Vonnegut piece I once read.
It was in his book called "Welcome to the Monkey House". In a futuristic society the powers that became applied a perversely extreme interpretation of "all men are created equal" in which everybody had to be equal to everybody else in every way. This meant that nobody could have any more physical abilities that the worst quadroplegic. This meant that the more natural physical ability one had, the more handicaps they had to wear, thus weighting them down so they couldn't use their physical talents because if they did, they'd be unequal to those who didn't have these talents. This necessitated a cabinet post called the 'Handicapper General' who made sure that everybody wore their handicaps.
Toward the end of the story, a talented skating couple refused to wear their handicaps and skated beautifully and awesomely...until the Handicapper General got wind of it and came and shot them dead. That's what I feel like here sometimes. This is supposed to be an open forum where anybody can voice their opinion. Yet because of all the self appointed 'handicapper generals', anybody who is positive in their recollection of TWI/PFAL is compelled to wear the same handicaps as those who were scarred by TWI/PFAL.
I enjoy my life right now. I enjoy my family, the people at the fellowship I go to, the activities I allow in my life, and my health, and TWI/PFAL has made a large contribution to that enjoyment. I refuse to wear any handicaps.
So Dove let me get this straight - I'm really asking here...
Is M's account not an eyewitness account? (She was there!)
On another note, for arguments sake:
Let's say that no one was drugged. Let's say no one was raped. Even with these two elements out of the picture, vp was wrong.
Since you guys are so fond of quoting the Bible on this one, let's consider the David and Bathsheba story for a second.
David was the one held accountable. He didn't rape or drug Bathsheba. You can argue that God wasn't angry about he and Bathsheba - that it was only because he plotted to have Uriah killed. I'm not sure that will pass muster because there's still a commandment that prohibits coveting another man's wife.
David used his position and power to manipulate the situation to his advantage - he did it with Bathsheba and he did it to get Uriah killed. God never addresses how many times Bathsheba opened her home to the King. He never talks about whether or not she enjoyed it. He only says that David was wrong.
Oh and Nathan didn't have any eyewitnesses either...
Oh and yes - David was forgiven - after he was confronted and asked for forgiveness. He didnt' go out and do the same again, now did he?
Oh and while Solomon was a good guy for a while; Rehoboam, (Solomon's son and David's grandson) made a mess of the kingdom.
Pond, I have related this story on WayDale and GSC before. So I have reiterated only certain portions in order to not belabor the incident. however, for your benefit, since you are missing some chronology and details, here it is again.
In 1975 after I ran a PFAL class for my parents, I went in residence in the 6th Way Corps, and my perfectly well-adjusted 17 year old sister went out WOW Ambassador.
So, my parents are brand new grads, and my sister is a brand new WOW, and I am brand new Way Corps. Capiche? Good.
VPW that fall gets his bright, shiny, brand new motorcoach, and takes it on a whirlwind tour to visit the WOW ambassadors. He also discovers it has nifty side benefits.
Thanksgiving comes, and my excited brand-new-grad parents make a long-haul two day trip from southern Indiana to a coastal state to visit my sister and her WOW family. They are treated warmly and lovingly, with hugs all around. My sister and her WOW family are happy and excited, and announce VPW is coming for a visit in a few days. My parents leave and make the long-haul two day trip all the way back home to Indiana.
In a little while, I get pulled aside in residence in Emporia. I have a phone call. Some kind of emergency at home. I go to the phone, pick it up, and my Mom is on the other end. It seems almost as soon as they got home, they got a call from someone on the WOW field to come and pick up my sister. No explanation, no nothing. No time to even ask a question. Just come pick her up, immediately. Click.
So, my parents, who JUST GOT HOME from their long trip and are not even unpacked, have to turn around, climb back into the car, spend another two days to drive all the way back out to where my sister is to find out what is going on. Her stuff is packed and at the curb. No hello, no how are you, no hugs. No explanation. Just take her and get out of here. They were treated rudely and brusquely. This confused them after such a warm welcome just a few days before. For two days they drive home through the hills and hollows of South Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, and finally Indiana. My sister did not speak a word the entire time. Nor did she eat a single bite of food, or drink a drop of anything. She just silently sobbed.
When they got her home she would not come out of her room. She would not get out of bed. They could not get her to talk or eat. She could not sleep. All she did was cry.
And cry.
So my Mom called me and asked me what to do. My sister wouldn't tell them anything. Mom and Dad were confused about how they were treated. They knew something was wrong, but didn't know what it was or what to do. She wanted my advice and wanted to know if I knew who to talk to to find out what happened. I knew VPW would be at Emporia the next day and I knew that whatever happened had to have transpired while he was there. Surely he would know what happened. Surely I could ask him, and he would gently and honestly tell me what happened to her and why she was sent home, and why my parents were treated so coldly. Surely he would make that right and find out why my parents were treated that way, and give me advice on how to handle the situation with my sister.
So that afternoon I wrote him a letter and took it to interoffice to make sure it would be there for him as soon as he arrived.
Next day, me and VP. "What can I do for you?" He seemed surprised I knew about this WOW in S. Carolina. Then he quickly connected the dots that I was her sister, and he became unhinged. I asked him to tell me what happened that day when he visited my sister in South Carolina, and why was she dismissed from the Wow Field. I began to tell him how coldly my parents were treated and he became flustered, loud, and thunderously declared in an intimidating manner, "She just couldn't handle the WOW field!!!!!! Any other questions???!!!!!!!!!" His manner led me to believe he felt I was asking intrusive questions that I should already know the answer to. The insinuation was, she was possessed. I felt lower than dirt for even bringing it up and upsetting "THE Man of God." I must have a lot to learn spiritually if I don't understand this, so I guess I'm just novice Corps who needs to just shut up and go away.
When Mom called and asked how that turned out, I had no answers for her. My sister was even worse and my parents, new grads, were at their wits end. They eventually send her to counseling. It doesn't help. Nothing seems to help. How does a person who has been well-adjusted all her life, suddenly in the matter of two or three days, turn into a person who cannot eat or sleep, and cries 24/7?
My sister eventually makes an effort to return to fellowship after about a year.
So now we are talking 1976-77.
She starts tentatively going back to fellowship. Because she is an advanced class grad, the branch leader decides to give her a twig.
Without consulting whether or not she feels capable of leading one.
He simply announces at a branch meeting that she will be the next new twig leader.
She stands up, stops him, and begins to try to tell him she doesn't think she is in a position to be responsible for other people's lives yet.
He thunders across the room at her how much of a cop-out she is, and that because of people like her our entire country is going to hell in a handbasket.
She walked out and never went back to a fellowship again.
I saw her at family gatherings and when I would come home for visits to my parents.
She never, ever, while I was still in The Way ministry, spoke ONE, not ONE word against VPW or TWI. NOT ONE.
1985. VPW dies. That is what, 10 years after the incident.
VPW is dead. My sister STILL has not told me what happened, and I do not ask. I have been repeatedly warned to limit her access to my heart. My sister had plenty of opportunity to say whatever she wanted, and IF she wanted to say something, she didn't.
February, 1997. After decades of confronting people in TWI, and getting defamed for it, I finally leave.
March 1997. Indiana leadership inform my parents they have to put my sister out of their house. Dad refuses and tells them to kiss off.
Still, my sister is silent. She still has not said anything. Why? She wants to make sure our leaving is for real before she does. She doesn't want to speak too soon and then be cut out of our lives.
June or July 1997. Sister purchases her first computer from Geek and we go down to Indiana to deliver it and put it together. Geek puts it together and goes upstairs.
It's our first time on the internet. I put The Way International in the search engine. The first thing that comes up is M's story.
I read it. I recognize her. I am shocked.
My sister looks at it for the first time. She asks me, timidly, "What do you think about her story?" I was stunned. I didn't know what to say.
Then my sister finally felt safe enough to let her story tumble out.
She told me she had kept it to herself for so long because she was afraid no one would believe her, and that we would cut her out of her life, and we were all she had.
1975 to 1997. That's twenty two years she COULD have said derrogatory things about VPW and didn't, because she was afraid. TWELVE of those years, VPW was dead. If she was waiting for him to DIE before she brought it up, she would have brought it up TWELVE YEARS EARLIER.
She kept silent out of fear of losing the only family she had.
Now if you cannot understand that, I have no earthly words to describe your density.
See,
except for people dedicated to seeing vpw kept clear of even the suggestion of
impropriety (i.e. "do anything to keep a charge from sticking"),
this is pretty clear.
For those of you for whom this is not a clear-cut and straightforward account,
NOTHING will be sufficient for you to even consider this is likely to be true,
let alone possible, and any blame accruing to vpw for inflicting this on a victim
is inconceivable.
Why bother saying it's anything other than that? I can respect our differences if
you're being up-front and honest about your reasons.
You refuse to seriously entertain any thoughts that demonstrate serious moral depravity
or felonies on the part of vpw,
so anything and anyone that suggests otherwise must be dismissed, belittled,
So Dove let me get this straight - I'm really asking here...
Is M's account not an eyewitness account? (She was there!)
It may be it may not be it is words on a screen by an anonymous person on the internet that showed up on a anti way site. No I do not accept everything I read on the net as truth it may be the gospel truth it may be biased BS who can know?
My point was that some who claimed to be able to verify the eyewitness account seem to be lacking in the story as being a eyewitness as I see it at best yes M would be an eyewitness I see no verification of the story by anyone else. other than second hand info and opinion.
On another note, for arguments sake:
Let's say that no one was drugged. Let's say no one was raped. Even with these two elements out of the picture, vp was wrong.
Did I ever say once that he was not ? In fact find a post ever where I said he was not on any thread for that matter.Since you guys are so fond of quoting the Bible on this one, let's consider the David and Bathsheba story for a second.
David was the one held accountable. He didn't rape or drug Bathsheba. You can argue that God wasn't angry about he and Bathsheba - that it was only because he plotted to have Uriah killed. I'm not sure that will pass muster because there's still a commandment that prohibits coveting another man's wife.
David used his position and power to manipulate the situation to his advantage - he did it with Bathsheba and he did it to get Uriah killed. God never addresses how many times Bathsheba opened her home to the King. He never talks about whether or not she enjoyed it. He only says that David was wrong.
Oh and Nathan didn't have any eyewitnesses either...
Oh and yes - David was forgiven - after he was confronted and asked for forgiveness. He didnt' go out and do the same again, now did he?
Oh and while Solomon was a good guy for a while; Rehoboam, (Solomon's son and David's grandson) made a mess of the kingdom.
I never quoted any scripture on this first off and I am not God and I don't have his ability to see the truth in every situation, so I rely on facts to determine truth or not. and I never excused anyone either that is a constant fallacy perpetuated by Rascal and company to sidetrack the point I specifically addressed that point several times why is this still a question? I stated on several occasions that VPW could well be guilty as charged that was not the point of dispute it was verifying things that you have no proof of, which is not verifying at all its opinion passed off as truth. I take exception to that and that alone How God feels is his business. my concern is misrepresenting information and words which later show up again in other threads later on to be now not opinion any longer but somehow changed to the truth. John Lynn said he thought people may have been drugged fine his opinion he offers no proof but that's fine he is entitled to his opinion. But now all of a sudden it is now accepted fact people were because John thought so. is that the standard for truth? Sorry personal opinion is not fact or truth Gee just maybe John could be wrong but lets not explore that fact cause it clashes with our it must be negative if its the Way agenda. If you want me to believe what your selling you better have proof. I think people accepted opinion way too often as truth while in the way It did not work too well then either, people have all kinds of reasons for saying things many of which are dishonest and purposefully misleading. You make a claim you better have something to back it up if you say you are an eyewitness you better be personally there that what it is to be one. I've never been an eyewitness to a bank robbery but someone once told me a story that was at least they said so, that did not make me now an eyewitness it made me someone who heard a story which could have been true or part true or a complete fabrication. I had no way of knowing which it was It would be foolish to assume I could verify what was not in my power to confirm.
It is amazing how many people that you have to make liars in order to be comfortable with your choice to put credence in vpw or his teachings.
You have marsha, who was known by several here, you have cat cup, her sister, excathdra, dot matrix, JUST in our little community here, that have given us accounts of their first hand experience with vpw and his lying predatory ways....you have two accounts, (one right here) of teenaged girls waking up in the MIDDLE of sex acts being preformed on them by vp after being given drinks by geer....the whole evening being fogged and confusing....confirmation by top a top leader of drugging and rape (not just once, but that it had been going on a long time) and you have to make these ALL each and every one liars in order to make twi/pfal platable and appear acceptible.
You have vp`s successor lcm whom not only have we had first hand accounts of forced sexual servitude, and m&a for non compliances....you have court documentation...of sexual misconduct....you have documentation of cover up of those activities from the current president and various leaders....
Come on....connect the dots guys... GENUINE christians, not to mention ministers do NOT treat people with this kind of calloused disregard. Why do you need so badly to be right in your religion that you must close your eyes, your hearts and your compassion? The word beguiled comes to mind :(
It's always amazing that when some have no real answers to the questions they drag out the tired old argument about who wrote what book like that has anything to do with the subject at hand, and how we have the insane need to marginalize and minimalize what these men and their pimps did.
I'm not dragging out the tired old argument about who wrote what book... I'm merely asking you (and the other defenders of the faith) why you would want to continue to defend and protect a man and his organization that has been responsible for so much damage in people's lives.
Now, now... your usual response is "because he taught us the Word", "he gave us the class"... ALL I'm pointing out is that he taught you the Word by stealing the classes and books of other people. Why wouldn't you want to get the class and books you hold so dear from the original sources rather than endorse and defend a "ministry" that systematically damaged and used thousands of people?
IF it is truly the Word and the classes on the Word that you hold so dear, why wouldn't you get them from the original folks? Why cleave so strongly to a ministry with so much damage in it's history (and it's present)??? I understand that there are those of you that still like the class... why not get it from BG Leonard's folks without all of the woven in hidden agenda of veepee???
I can understand how you might still want to 'hold onto the class", what I can't understand is why you'd want anything at all to do with TWI after all you know. Why would you willingly choose to be associated with them when the class is available from the original folks that veepee took it from. Of course, I'm not really expecting you (or any other of the defenders of the faith) to really be honest about your answer... your choice to continue to choose veepee shows how much your conscience has been seared...
Again I ask this pretty simple question: Could someone please let me know what classes or books were veepee's original authorship?
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
pond
and say geez this is really a shame ya know not Gods will at all !!!! I know because my own brother lived through cancer and God wanted him alive and by the way sorry about your son. to bad this happened and all but it isnt God will the devil is nasty and well im sure glad my own brother didnt bite the big one ! blah blah
man not so much .
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WhiteDove
No one said people don't make mistakes we all do I just choose to admit mine and not blame someone else for them, or at least my part in them. and whether life goes good or bad makes no difference when you know you did your best to stand on what you believe. I always say well, they may beat me down, they may slow me down, they may hurt or even kill me but they will never break me. If it's not Gods Word then it's got to go, consequences are of no consideration to me. They might make life hell but my father is there with me. I'm sorry that those who should have lived by It Is Written failed to see the importance when life got tough. That’s not a judgment that is looking at the facts did they or did they not follow scripture.
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WhiteDove
Yeah whatever if I don't agree with your theory it must be wrong........
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doojable
Okay, here goes...
On Friday I got some scary news. It involved my health and was written in such a way that I wasn't sure where I stood and how my life and the lives of my girls would be affected by it. I wasn't sure if I had reason to be concerned or not - and I didn't want to have the "Pollyanna La La La everything is beautiful, don't fear" attitude. I also didn't want to accept what I feared - because I really thought that ultimately I had nothing to fear.
The truth is that I was afraid. I was terrified. No matter what amount of mental wrangling I did I just couldn't shake off that fear that I was going to be very sick
I found out today that I'm fine.
Here's what I'm thinking -
Fear is a natural reaction to things that threaten us and our loved ones. We were designed to respond to things this way.
I'm just wondering how many people got real, real, real sick because they tried to "just believe" they were well? How many people never went to a doctor because that would "open the door for the Adversary?"
We learned to ignore what GOD designed to help us.
There's more... I just need to think a bit...
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J0nny Ling0
I would never say that.
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WhiteDove
I think white dove believes these girls could have said NO and i also believe they could have said NO.
but i do not get what his point is either. is it to blame the girls who had sex because they had sex as well as the man ?
so it is BOTH of them that is wrong. ok.
The point started pages back it is always the same speak truth don't make s**t up......... your opinion may or may not be truth that does not mean it verifies anything it means that you believe it .
As I pointed out in her own story It appears from her story that she did in fact have a chance to walk away. read her account:
Two days later Cathy came to get me. I followed her to the camp where VP's motor coach was parked. The front of the motor coach was a sitting area and a table, both made into beds. He appeared to like the gifts we brought and poured himself a drink. Cathy, Howard and I also had one. VP then went into the back of the coach. He called me back there. He had undressed and was lying nude, face down on one of the two beds in the rear of the coach. He asked me to give him a back rub. Odd as it sounds, I did not find this at all strange. Back rubs were very common with the Corp and WOW's. While he was laying face down I gave him a rub from head to toe. He rolled over on his back and indicated I should continue, so I gave him a rub again from head to toe, except for his genitals.
When I was done, he looked at me and said, "You are not finished."
I was sitting on the side of the bed. I looked at my hands that were laying palm up in my lap and I started to jabber. That is really the only word for it. I began to talk in a sing song voice about Greg. I told him all I could think of to say about Greg. When I fell silent he smiled at me and said, " That's nice, now go on." And I did.
I cannot tell you everything that happened next; (the reason will become evident). But later, (much later for when this started it was light outside and it had been dark for a long, long time) he told me to get into the other bed. As I was climbing over him he smacked me on my bare bottom and said, "I didn't screw you, but it wouldn't have hurt you if I had."
I got into the other bed and laid there with my eyes wide open, not blinking, but with silent tears running out, until
day light. When it was light, I got dressed and went out to my car. I was in a rage. I spun the tires of my car until I had flung all the gravel, grass and dirt beneath them onto the motor coach and I roared out of there.
That was the first time.
She had left and was free and clear drug free, she returned to be alone knowing what had transpired, I think one has to accept a level of personal accountability for putting oneself in harms way. She was not drugged when she returned she walked in of her own power. That does not excuse what happened or make it justifiable in any way but it does not by the same token excuse the truth that she did have a way out and was not drugged and had no options as insinuated. No one is blaming anyone here just keeping the truth of the record straight.
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skyrider
........in harms way????
Wasn't she going to be with wierwille..??
:blink: :blink:
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doojable
I dunno Dove - why don't you call her up and ask her why she went back - then report back to us.
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Danny
Is there such a thing as a BLACK DOVE?
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waysider
Well, I knew at least one.
He can't post here,if you get my drift. :(
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GrouchoMarxJr
There's a moral, ethical and legal responsibility for "clergy" in a church to NOT take sexual advantages of women in their congregation...They are at a decided advantage. They were BOTH wrong?...you outta rethink that...doesn't the bible say something about what will happen to shepards who f* ck their own sheep?
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rascal
I just don`t understand this insane need to marginalize and minimalize what these men and their pimps did. I don`t understand why the need to savage the then young innocent teens ... questioning their veracity, their judgement.....who were DRUGGED and RAPED...others who were DECEIVED and SEDUCED....by men claiming that it was their spiritual RIGHT and others spiritual DUTY to comply.
Yet where is the outrage that ought to be directed at these monsters who perpetrated these heinous acts.
These men rather than the benevolent shepherds, caring for the flock??? Do they not more fit the description of ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour??? The false prophets that deceived in God`s name to fill the lusts of their bellies???
I have a question for all of you guys....Dove, oldies, Jonny, Do any of you have teen aged daughters??? Do you have any idea how naieve and trusting that they are? How willing to please? How reluctant to hurt???
There is a reason that they are vulnerable...why they need our protection....why it is a felony as an adult male to have sex with them.
The deserve our protection and guidance as the precious at time fragile young souls that they are.
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rascal
Excathedra, I am so sorry. I don`t understand this insane need to make the victims of these monsters look like the criminals here. I don`t get it, I cannot understand the insane need to portray that filthy human debris....in a positive light:(
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pond
IN response to white dove
I get it man I do as I worked through my own mess trust me i had to do alot of personal work on how and why I made the choices I did.
if we are adults I believe we all do that if we are honest and want to understand.
But even with bad choices what happened was at the hand of another person and their choice to harm another.
that I did not know about.
what is your point?
to keep the record straight?
ok so the word rape is to strong of a word for you, would you consider it consentual sex? two adults and 17 is a legal age to have sex in many states having sex and one with regrets?
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skyrider
Rascal........I agree. These actions, from 55 year-old men, are nothing more than despicable deception and dominance. Just sickos with narcistic traits and predatory appetites.
False prophet seems to be an apt description.........deceiving, lying, conning, seducing, etc.
And, further.......it only backs up all evidence that wierwille STOLE his teaching material from others. Heck, he never worked it from the depth of the scriptures and "made it his own." And, as far as holy spirit stirring within him to bear witness of God's work wrought in his ministry........WHAT A CROCK.
If the motorcoach could talk...........????
:blink:
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Suda
There is so much I want to respond to on this thread, but am incredibly busy trying to get two children off to college in two weeks, and the other child is in 2-a-day football practices already. When I have the time, I will post. My lack of activity is not evidence of lack of interest or desire to participate, just inability at this time.
Suda
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WhiteDove
It's always amazing that when some have no real answers to the questions they drag out the tired old argument about who wrote what book like that has anything to do with the subject at hand, and how we have the insane need to marginalize and minimalize what these men and their pimps did. I guess its easier to change the subject and accuse people of something that the posts clearly show that they did not do. Go ahead read back through the pages I never marginalized or minimalized one thing in fact several posts I went out of the way to address that issue but I guess that's easy to ignore when you only want to see a negative slant to the story. I took exception with specific facts and words posted as they were being misrepresented. The first which I have yet to get back to is verify, this is what it means to do so :
1. to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate: Events verified his prediction.
2. to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison: to verify a spelling.
3. to act as ultimate proof or evidence of; serve to confirm.
4. Law. a. to prove or confirm (an allegation).
b. to state to be true, esp. in legal use, formally or upon oath.
If one verifies a check for instance the procedure is to call the bank issuing the check and confirm that the money is there in the account that is how it is verified. One does not call the teller who may or may not know me and ask them if in their opinion the check is good. They don't ask John Lynn if he thinks in his opinion my check might be good but I guess when dealing with Way issues logic goes out the window.
When you verify whether someone was drugged you do a toxicology report ,pending that as proof or verification you have no case to assume that due to your opinion on the case you can just decide that they were" just because". worse yet some think that due to some unknown training that they now have they can travel back through time and verify a case that they have no data secured from but hey John Lynn said he thinks that maybe that might have happened (of course after he was fired and lost his job he comes to this knowledge) so that settles that. GEE I guess I missed That's my opinion so that verifies anything I want as a definition of the word. Lacking the proper proof one can not validate or confirm something and Catcup your best guess does not count you have no evidence one way or another ,you can have your opinion all you want but that is what it is and that does not count as verifying something it counts as an opinion period. Honest people accept the fact that it could be either way as I did but somehow some defy all logic and have found the truth with out any evidence to get there.
Here is another word:
eye·wit·ness
–noun 1. a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing and can give a firsthand account of it: There were two eyewitnesses to the murder.
–verb (used with object) 2. to view with one's own eyes: to eyewitness a murder.
Notice absent is "the victim told me the story and so now I can verify it as the truth." that's not what the word means challenging the misuse dishonest use of that word neither marginalized or minimalized anyone it simply challenged the misuse of a word to support a personal opinion that was being passed off as truth. I think maybe someone missed a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing so Catcup you said you were an eyewitness to the incident with R**K were you standing there when it happened did you actually see or hear the proposition because that is what an eyewitness is. How about the rest of you., If not then one can not say they can verify anything in that situation, you have an opinion which is your prerogative but that is not the same as fact or truth. I seemed to miss the part in M's story where any of you were along that night. So quit trying to pass yourself off as some authority that you are not. By the same standard I was not an eyewitness either which is why I must acknowledge that the story may or may not be true. I can have an opinion ,one way or the other and for the record again I would lean toward it being true but it verifies nothing, (that has does not marginalize or minimalize anyone either by the way) It is pretty sad that your need to portray the TWI in a negative light has led you to fabricate new meanings for words and ignore common logic. Sorry this is not I can just make s**t up day.
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johniam
Usually, I seem to find myself in the middle of discussions like this. This thread hits me like a Kurt Vonnegut piece I once read.
It was in his book called "Welcome to the Monkey House". In a futuristic society the powers that became applied a perversely extreme interpretation of "all men are created equal" in which everybody had to be equal to everybody else in every way. This meant that nobody could have any more physical abilities that the worst quadroplegic. This meant that the more natural physical ability one had, the more handicaps they had to wear, thus weighting them down so they couldn't use their physical talents because if they did, they'd be unequal to those who didn't have these talents. This necessitated a cabinet post called the 'Handicapper General' who made sure that everybody wore their handicaps.
Toward the end of the story, a talented skating couple refused to wear their handicaps and skated beautifully and awesomely...until the Handicapper General got wind of it and came and shot them dead. That's what I feel like here sometimes. This is supposed to be an open forum where anybody can voice their opinion. Yet because of all the self appointed 'handicapper generals', anybody who is positive in their recollection of TWI/PFAL is compelled to wear the same handicaps as those who were scarred by TWI/PFAL.
I enjoy my life right now. I enjoy my family, the people at the fellowship I go to, the activities I allow in my life, and my health, and TWI/PFAL has made a large contribution to that enjoyment. I refuse to wear any handicaps.
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WordWolf
In other words,
you won't even seriously consider the idea that the victims might all be telling the truth
and that's why their stories all form a cohesive whole,
unless there's DNA evidence, video footage and a confession signed by vpw.
Anything else would be considered "reasonable" doubt.
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doojable
So Dove let me get this straight - I'm really asking here...
Is M's account not an eyewitness account? (She was there!)
On another note, for arguments sake:
Let's say that no one was drugged. Let's say no one was raped. Even with these two elements out of the picture, vp was wrong.
Since you guys are so fond of quoting the Bible on this one, let's consider the David and Bathsheba story for a second.
David was the one held accountable. He didn't rape or drug Bathsheba. You can argue that God wasn't angry about he and Bathsheba - that it was only because he plotted to have Uriah killed. I'm not sure that will pass muster because there's still a commandment that prohibits coveting another man's wife.
David used his position and power to manipulate the situation to his advantage - he did it with Bathsheba and he did it to get Uriah killed. God never addresses how many times Bathsheba opened her home to the King. He never talks about whether or not she enjoyed it. He only says that David was wrong.
Oh and Nathan didn't have any eyewitnesses either...
Oh and yes - David was forgiven - after he was confronted and asked for forgiveness. He didnt' go out and do the same again, now did he?
Oh and while Solomon was a good guy for a while; Rehoboam, (Solomon's son and David's grandson) made a mess of the kingdom.
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WordWolf
See,
except for people dedicated to seeing vpw kept clear of even the suggestion of
impropriety (i.e. "do anything to keep a charge from sticking"),
this is pretty clear.
For those of you for whom this is not a clear-cut and straightforward account,
NOTHING will be sufficient for you to even consider this is likely to be true,
let alone possible, and any blame accruing to vpw for inflicting this on a victim
is inconceivable.
Why bother saying it's anything other than that? I can respect our differences if
you're being up-front and honest about your reasons.
You refuse to seriously entertain any thoughts that demonstrate serious moral depravity
or felonies on the part of vpw,
so anything and anyone that suggests otherwise must be dismissed, belittled,
labelled, and ridiculed.
Be honest with yourselves about this, at least.
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WhiteDove
So Dove let me get this straight - I'm really asking here...
Is M's account not an eyewitness account? (She was there!)
It may be it may not be it is words on a screen by an anonymous person on the internet that showed up on a anti way site. No I do not accept everything I read on the net as truth it may be the gospel truth it may be biased BS who can know?
My point was that some who claimed to be able to verify the eyewitness account seem to be lacking in the story as being a eyewitness as I see it at best yes M would be an eyewitness I see no verification of the story by anyone else. other than second hand info and opinion.
On another note, for arguments sake:
Let's say that no one was drugged. Let's say no one was raped. Even with these two elements out of the picture, vp was wrong.
Did I ever say once that he was not ? In fact find a post ever where I said he was not on any thread for that matter.Since you guys are so fond of quoting the Bible on this one, let's consider the David and Bathsheba story for a second.
David was the one held accountable. He didn't rape or drug Bathsheba. You can argue that God wasn't angry about he and Bathsheba - that it was only because he plotted to have Uriah killed. I'm not sure that will pass muster because there's still a commandment that prohibits coveting another man's wife.
David used his position and power to manipulate the situation to his advantage - he did it with Bathsheba and he did it to get Uriah killed. God never addresses how many times Bathsheba opened her home to the King. He never talks about whether or not she enjoyed it. He only says that David was wrong.
Oh and Nathan didn't have any eyewitnesses either...
Oh and yes - David was forgiven - after he was confronted and asked for forgiveness. He didnt' go out and do the same again, now did he?
Oh and while Solomon was a good guy for a while; Rehoboam, (Solomon's son and David's grandson) made a mess of the kingdom.
I never quoted any scripture on this first off and I am not God and I don't have his ability to see the truth in every situation, so I rely on facts to determine truth or not. and I never excused anyone either that is a constant fallacy perpetuated by Rascal and company to sidetrack the point I specifically addressed that point several times why is this still a question? I stated on several occasions that VPW could well be guilty as charged that was not the point of dispute it was verifying things that you have no proof of, which is not verifying at all its opinion passed off as truth. I take exception to that and that alone How God feels is his business. my concern is misrepresenting information and words which later show up again in other threads later on to be now not opinion any longer but somehow changed to the truth. John Lynn said he thought people may have been drugged fine his opinion he offers no proof but that's fine he is entitled to his opinion. But now all of a sudden it is now accepted fact people were because John thought so. is that the standard for truth? Sorry personal opinion is not fact or truth Gee just maybe John could be wrong but lets not explore that fact cause it clashes with our it must be negative if its the Way agenda. If you want me to believe what your selling you better have proof. I think people accepted opinion way too often as truth while in the way It did not work too well then either, people have all kinds of reasons for saying things many of which are dishonest and purposefully misleading. You make a claim you better have something to back it up if you say you are an eyewitness you better be personally there that what it is to be one. I've never been an eyewitness to a bank robbery but someone once told me a story that was at least they said so, that did not make me now an eyewitness it made me someone who heard a story which could have been true or part true or a complete fabrication. I had no way of knowing which it was It would be foolish to assume I could verify what was not in my power to confirm.
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rascal
It is amazing how many people that you have to make liars in order to be comfortable with your choice to put credence in vpw or his teachings.
You have marsha, who was known by several here, you have cat cup, her sister, excathdra, dot matrix, JUST in our little community here, that have given us accounts of their first hand experience with vpw and his lying predatory ways....you have two accounts, (one right here) of teenaged girls waking up in the MIDDLE of sex acts being preformed on them by vp after being given drinks by geer....the whole evening being fogged and confusing....confirmation by top a top leader of drugging and rape (not just once, but that it had been going on a long time) and you have to make these ALL each and every one liars in order to make twi/pfal platable and appear acceptible.
You have vp`s successor lcm whom not only have we had first hand accounts of forced sexual servitude, and m&a for non compliances....you have court documentation...of sexual misconduct....you have documentation of cover up of those activities from the current president and various leaders....
Come on....connect the dots guys... GENUINE christians, not to mention ministers do NOT treat people with this kind of calloused disregard. Why do you need so badly to be right in your religion that you must close your eyes, your hearts and your compassion? The word beguiled comes to mind :(
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Tom Strange
I'm not dragging out the tired old argument about who wrote what book... I'm merely asking you (and the other defenders of the faith) why you would want to continue to defend and protect a man and his organization that has been responsible for so much damage in people's lives.
Now, now... your usual response is "because he taught us the Word", "he gave us the class"... ALL I'm pointing out is that he taught you the Word by stealing the classes and books of other people. Why wouldn't you want to get the class and books you hold so dear from the original sources rather than endorse and defend a "ministry" that systematically damaged and used thousands of people?
IF it is truly the Word and the classes on the Word that you hold so dear, why wouldn't you get them from the original folks? Why cleave so strongly to a ministry with so much damage in it's history (and it's present)??? I understand that there are those of you that still like the class... why not get it from BG Leonard's folks without all of the woven in hidden agenda of veepee???
I can understand how you might still want to 'hold onto the class", what I can't understand is why you'd want anything at all to do with TWI after all you know. Why would you willingly choose to be associated with them when the class is available from the original folks that veepee took it from. Of course, I'm not really expecting you (or any other of the defenders of the faith) to really be honest about your answer... your choice to continue to choose veepee shows how much your conscience has been seared...
Again I ask this pretty simple question: Could someone please let me know what classes or books were veepee's original authorship?
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