So you are saying you evaluated her as a qualified doctor at the time of the event?
No, I did not say that. I am not a doctor, nor have I ever claimed to be a doctor. However, you don't have to be a doctor to make an observation as a trained professional. I can also look back on incidents that happened in the past, with the added education and training I have now, and more accurately evaluate what was going on.
or were you present as an eyewitness? That is verifying
Yes, I did say that.
That's proving or confirming (an allegation).
Did you do a toxicology test if not you can not say with any proof that she was drugged that may be your opinion and you can believe as you wish that does not verify anything as fact.
No, I did not do a toxicology test, and yes, it is my opinion.
But it is my opinion as a person who is trained to make such observations, and not as a "friend" supporting a "friend."
And if you were sure of your diagnosis ...
I did not make a diagnosis, nor did I claim to diagnose anyone. That is a loaded, legal word.
I made observations. Which is another loaded, legal word.
I am giving my opinion as a trained and educated professional with experience. Which is also loaded and legal.
I have not said anything on this board that I would not be willing to have quoted back to me in a court of law.
...shouldn't you have addressed the issue at that point? Rather than chaulking it up to a misunderstanding of craigs words...
Like many people back then (and some even today), at the time, I was not willing to believe the spiritual overseer in charge would make such a statement.
And yet you stayed around and supported this group for how many more years. One has to ask why did you not verify your account at that time.
Yes, I stayed around and supported this group for many more years, under the misguided notion I might be able to help fix the problems I saw.
I have to ask what do you mean, why did I not "verify my account at the time?"
Your a Corps grad you were supposed to be doing what the word says if you had knowledge of this behavior you should have taken it to whatever level you needed to rectify it.
What makes you think I didn't?
You also have to understand that at the time, I and others like me, felt those above me surely had to have my best interest at heart.
I was taught and believed, that if I noticed error in those persons, it was MY mistake, and I should look at it as me misunderstanding what I saw or heard. The Way Corps was taught, fed, nourished, believed and lived by that code.
We were taught that is what the Word says to do.
I took everything to my overseers that I felt was questionable.
Example: Another roommate I observed was exhibiting some pretty bizarre, depressive, self-destructive behavior, and was constantly in tears or trying to hide them. When I finally got her alone and asked her what was wrong, she said "I am being screwed by guys." When I asked her if she meant figuratively or literally, she said "Literally". I took this immediately to her in-residence branch coordinator, who said he would handle this.
Result: She was immediately moved out of my room and given another roommate.
I was instructed not to talk to her about it any more.
In the Corps, obedience was demanded, because, we were told, that was what the Word demanded. I obeyed.
I watched her grow more and more isolated. However, I had to "obey the Word." My leadership knew best.
Example: While walking through some isolated rooms in the upper regions of Kenyon hall, I found two married people lying on the floor behind a closed door in one of these rooms, locked in passionate embrace.
The problem?
They are not married to each other. And they are both prominent leaders. I closed the door and immediately took this to my overseer, who took it to the Corps Coordinator.
Result: The next thing I know, my twig coordinator accuses me of having sex with my fiance (which was not true) and told me to mind my own business.
And the incident with VPW. Who else am I supposed to take it to to rectify it? Did you not read that I confronted Victor Paul Wierwille himself?
When I asked him what had happened to her on his motor coach when he came to SC to visit the WOWs, he thundered and blustered and yelled and told me my sister "just couldn't handle the WOW field." The man intimidated me and made me feel like a worm for even asking the question.
I'd like to see exactly what YOU would have done at the time, standing in front of the man you truly believed was "THE Man of God over the entire world for our day and time."
Example: In 1982 and 1983 I confronted my department manager on staff at HQ. And at placements meetings in 1983, in the BRC, I confronted Emogene Allen, Bill Weingarner, and Donna Martindale all at the same time.
Result: Walter Cummins was denied his request for my presence on the research team, and I was offerred a job cleaning toilets at Der Veg.
Don Wierwille made a decision based lies fed to him by Auntie Em, that if I missed one day of scrubbing said toilets, that I would be fired from staff.
Rather than accept that staff position and the conditions prescribed, which were based on a pack of lies Emogene Allen propounded and they all swallowed, my husband and I refused on principle to stay on as staff at HQ. So Cummins not only did not get me on the research team, he also lost my husband.
I called the man who would be my region coordinator on the field to try to discuss what happened, and he refused to discuss it with me.
We returned to Chicago, and I tried to warn our immediate overseers and Limb Coordinator that there was something critically wrong at The Way International Headquarters at the Trustee level. We were then blackballed among the entire limb and region.
I repeatedly took issues I saw to the top. When I got too close to the truth I was marginalized, intimidated, sent on a wild goose chase, or defamed. When I finally got apologies for some things, these people, two of them TRUSTEES, went back on their word and back to their old habits. I tried for two decades to fix the place, confronting people at the cabinet and trustee level, found it hopelessly corrupt, and left.
what is your opinion on just why not one RECORD legal record of these charges against VPW?
no one metions this stuff till he is dead enough . ironic hmm.
it really doesnt matter who believes what other than those who say they are victims didnt believe it enough at the time to prosecute.
that matters.
Women were intimidated into silence then, just like they are today. It's a little easier to speak out today than it was 20 or even 10 years ago. The issues regarding sexual assault are always difficult for the victim to discuss. One of the reasons is it is a very personal crime, and another is that women are routinely portrayed by defense counsel as having "asked for it." It's a routine defense strategy. Having to prosecute the crime is like being raped all over again, only in public. So many people fail to even report the crime. It is much easier to try to limp on alone rather than to face being traumatized repeatedly.
It is the very rare, brave woman who has enough courage and surrounding support to actually press charges.
That's why I have immense respect for women like Fern Allen and January Parker. And, for men like Paul Allen who had the guts to not drop his wife and run away from her, but support her and face the true villain and take him down, no matter what.
There was also no internet available when VPW was alive. Victims of TWI were much more isolated and alone than they are today.
Thanks again to Paul Allen and WayDale, and TransChat before him, and Pawtucket with GreaseSpotCafe, we can connect, find support, and we will not be easily intimidated and silenced any more.
I suppose they shouldn't be thought of as the same, as Solomon did MUCH worse evil!
The principle is the same though. If the teachings of flawed humans who greatly sin are contaminated so much so that the teachings must be discarded, then Proverbs and Song of Solomon must be discarded.
Wow, what spin! They (the leaders) still hold Dr. Wierwille and his teachings (PFAL) in high regard. While repudiating Wierwille's sins, they still honor Dr. Wierwille for his works sake, which the bible says to do...
I think you're way off course here – elevating PFAL to the level of Scripture. You're confusing the twisted doctrines of a cult leader [vpw] with what real men of God wrote inspired by the Holy Spirit. Matthew 7 and II Peter 2 warns of false teachers and false prophets – they will be known by their fruit [fruit indicating what type of tree they are – the fruit of the wolf's labor has one goal - to prey upon the sheep], life-dominating sinful behavior, and poisonous teachings. No where in the Bible are we directed to honor such people – but rather to shun them – and as a service to our fellowman warn others!
It is ironic that one of the beneficial claims of PFAL was that it enables you to separate truth from error. What PFAL students failed to realize was that the criteria for discerning between truth and error was vpw's skewed viewpoint.
Women were intimidated into silence then, just like they are today. It's a little easier to speak out today than it was 20 or even 10 years ago. The issues regarding sexual assault are always difficult for the victim to discuss. One of the reasons is it is a very personal crime, and another is that women are routinely portrayed by defense counsel as having "asked for it." It's a routine defense strategy. Having to prosecute the crime is like being raped all over again, only in public. So many people fail to even report the crime. It is much easier to try to limp on alone rather than to face being traumatized repeatedly.
It is the very rare, brave woman who has enough courage and surrounding support to actually press charges.
That's why I have immense respect for women like Fern Allen and January Parker. And, for men like Paul Allen who had the guts to not drop his wife and run away from her, but support her and face the true villain and take him down, no matter what.
There was also no internet available when VPW was alive. Victims of TWI were much more isolated and alone than they are today.
Thanks again to Paul Allen and WayDale, and TransChat before him, and Pawtucket with GreaseSpotCafe, we can connect, find support, and we will not be easily intimidated and silenced any more.
make no mistake of the Vast difference between a civil lawsuit settled out of court and criminal charges of being drugged and raped . LCM faced his accusers, he did not have criminal charges against him the people who have issues with vpw waited untill he was dead and use the internet as thier voice box for state criminal acts. If he was alive and they could not prove it as truth they would be sued for slander.
make no mistake of the Vast difference between a civil lawsuit settled out of court and criminal charges of being drugged and raped . LCM faced his accusers, he did not have criminal charges against him the people who have issues with vpw waited untill he was dead and use the internet as thier voice box for state criminal acts. If he was alive and they could not prove it as truth they would be sued for slander.
Those women did not "wait" until VP was dead. They spoke out when they found the support and healing to do so. That takes time. If you want to draw a connection between the timing of his death and when they were able to finally get healing and find support, that's your prerogative. It doesn't mean you are correct. It means you are choosing to ignore other factors involved.
You also choose to ignore what I said previously about the difficulty a rape victim has about coming out to begin with.
You and others here are prime examples of why so many women choose to suffer in silence rather than put themselves on public display to be REvictimized by people like yourselves.
Rascal and Catcup, I appreciate your replies. First let me apologize for linking your thoughts together and treating them as one. Though they are similar, they are not identical, and linking them was an error on my part.
It seems we agree on more points than we disagree on. My problem is with the extreme nature of only one of Catcup’s comments: “So do you think all the sacrifices these women and others were forced to make, were worth your "blessing"? That's pretty damn selfish, knowing their lives were sacrificed so VP could sell you on a pack of lies, which you obviously STILL BELIEVE” . Because they are so extreme, they are incredulous and unpalatable to me. To me they indicate a dichotomy of choices that is unrealistic - either twi was all good or it was all bad. And yet we all agree that God was present in the goodness of many people affiliated with twi.
Here’s the best analogy I can think of the express my concerns. I had an Jr. High English teacher (9th grade) who loved Shakespear, and that passion made her a fantastic teacher on the subject. Before her class, reading Shakespear was boring and confusing, I just didn’t get it. But she made it jump off the pages for me, she made it alive and dynamic, and to this day I enjoy reading the Bard because of her instruction. I will always feel thankfulness and gratitude towards her for this accomplishment in my life.
I was in Jr. High back in the 60's, and this English teacher was the epitome of that culture. She looked like she dropped right out of a Yardley commercial with her hair, make up, and dress. And she was a rebel, she enjoyed pushing the envelope. I have no problem with any of these traits. But she carried them to an extreme, and crossed the line of morality. This was done in her private life, not at school, but was still reprehensible. She lost her job a few years after I was her student because the School Board learned that she and her husband enjoyed an open marriage, and she recruited current and former male students to be her playmates. She threw wild parties that involved alcohol, and then liked to have sex with multiple students as the grand finale to the party. (I don’t know if her husband brought his own playmates, or if he just enjoyed watching her pull the train.) I don’t know how many of her students were willing participants, how many participated due to peer pressure, etc., but some of the students were very disturbed by it, and that is how it came to the attention of the school board. Also, their consent or lack of it was really not the issue. The issue was that she abused the power and authority of her position as their teacher to involve them in amoral behavior. That is unacceptable any way you cut it. That facet of her personal life was so amoral and repugnant to me that I lost my respect of her as “Jane Citizen”. However, I still have great respect for her as a teacher of Shakespear.
Now, if I take the statement above, and apply it to this situation, it might read as follows, “So do you think all the sacrifices these male students and others were forced to make, were worth your "blessing" in learning to appreciate Shakespear? That's pretty damn selfish, knowing their lives were sacrificed . . .” To that question, I would have to answer, they are not related. Her passion in teaching Shakespear was not based on her amoral behavior. They were two separate issues. One was good, one was bad. One was acceptable, one was unacceptable. My learning to love Shakespear under her tutelage was in no way related to her abuse of some of her students. So my “blessing” of learning to love Shakespear cannot be interpreted as being selfish. Nor were their lives sacrificed in order for me to learn about Shakespear. They are separate issues and totally unrelated. Therefore, if such a statement were made that tried to link them, I would find those statements to be unrealistic, unpalatable, and unbelievable.
Suda (who will take time this evening to catch up on the other posts made since my last entry last night)
There was a REASON that the women didn`t report the drugging and rapes.
Number one, from the accounts, it was all very surreal, the disbelief that this was actually happening.....the man of God for our day and hour was giving every evidence of being nothing more than a filthy old pervert....then you are served a drink by the bus driver ...and everything gets fuzzy...the next coherant thought is of waking up in bed with the mog....a place that most who finally tell their stories never intended to be.
You find Dot`s account, where she was cornered in the coach and got away, cat cups sister etc...what was the difference in the stories of those who got away and those who didn`t??? ....the drink served by the bus driver....Those who got away had their reputations savaged and their characters assassinated with tales of posession in order to keep people from listening.
You have John Lynn saying that it had been happening for years......
Either vpw knew and condoned the drugging and is guilty of rape, or his driver was drugging the teenaged girls unbeknownst to him ...though I have trouble believing that he didn`t figure out sex with a passed out teenager was wrong.
Why didn`t this come forth when vp was alive??? I can only surmise the shame and embarrassment, add that together with the trauma of losing all family, friends, and spiritual support who were told to not have any contact, would make telling difficult. There was nobody TOO tell whom would believe.
Even here, when the stories are told, these ladies are treated badly by the ones who cannot handle the graphic truth of who and what these men were.
Why didn`t this come forth when vp was alive??? I can only surmise the shame and embarrassment, add that together with the trauma of losing all family, friends, and spiritual support who were told to not have any contact, would make telling difficult. There was nobody TOO tell whom would believe.
Even here, when the stories are told, these ladies are treated badly by the ones who cannot handle the graphic truth of who and what these men were.
You hit the nail on the head, Rascal.
My sister not only waited until after VPW died to tell me what happened.
She waited for TWENTY TWO MORE YEARS after the incident first occurred. She waited until both I and my parents were safely OUT of TWI. Why?
She told me our family was all she had. She knew that if she told me what had really happened, we would not have believed her and she would have lost everything.
Cat, if I may...it is your story to tell...but I have read before and was deeply disturbed by your account of how vpw looked you straight in the eye and lied about why your 17 yr old sister had been thrown out. The man deliberately and coldly savaged her character and reputation and any respect or credibility that she had.
Whether it was because he had been thwarted or ....ed, or because he needed to cover his tracks to keep people from hearing her story....either one was a dispicable reason for a minister, a man who proclaimed to love God....it is inexcusable that they would destroy an innocent who had simply looked to them for spiritual guidance :(
I also remember talking with your father in chat and how he related to us that leadership had not asked,, but required that he not allow his own daughter in his home.....(whether to live of visit I forget....I hope that I have that correct)
I know these are your stories, I hope that you don`t mind that I bring back information shared in the past....but doggone it...I think people need to know how far beyond the pail this is of just a few lapses in character and judgement.
These people set out to destroy peoples lives with visciousness and utilizing any means within their power when thwarted. These grown adult older men savaging young naieve women who had no where to turn.
These aren`t the actions of benevolent ministers that made a few minor errors in judgement. It is cold hard calculated evil in my book.
I think you're way off course here – elevating PFAL to the level of Scripture. You're confusing the twisted doctrines of a cult leader [vpw] with what real men of God wrote inspired by the Holy Spirit.
There is no question in my mind that PFAL teaches biblical truths, which ARE on the level of scripture. While I don't believe all (all without exception) are biblical truth, a lot of it is. Which yes, means that I believe Dr. Wierwille did have excellent spiritual understanding, despite his sins. Just like King Solomon.
Let's be honest. If you and others who condemn Wierwille and PFAL spent time examining and studying Solomon's sins, and really take his repugnant acts to heart, like you do Wierwille's repugnant acts, you would find the Book of Proverbs repugnant to read. You don't. Because your entire focus is on the sins of Wierwille, which is why you find PFAL repugnant and can't stand it when folks post good things about it.
Rascal and Catcup, I appreciate your replies. First let me apologize for linking your thoughts together and treating them as one. Though they are similar, they are not identical, and linking them was an error on my part.
It seems we agree on more points than we disagree on. My problem is with the extreme nature of only one of Catcup’s comments: “So do you think all the sacrifices these women and others were forced to make, were worth your "blessing"? That's pretty damn selfish, knowing their lives were sacrificed so VP could sell you on a pack of lies, which you obviously STILL BELIEVE” .
Suda, thank you for your response, and yes, we agree on so many more things than we disagree.
My reason for the post was explained previously. It is to challenge someones thinking and get them to examine their values. For 10 years there have been people who have oocasionally shown up on this board and on WayDale, and on TransChat before that, who have openly stated or blatantly insinuated that:
They didn't CARE what VPW did to other people, because they got blessed by what VPW did, and if a few women were abused in the process, that's life, and they probably asked for it anyway.[/b]
Again, it is that attitude I challenge whenever I think I detect it. If that is not your attitude, and I don't think it is, I don't have a problem with you.
Also as I have previously stated, I do not deny that there were good things that happened to some people. I simply attribute those good things to God, and not to the organization, its structure, its classes, or its programs.
Oldies, you are dead wrong in your summation of me and my opinion of david and solomon....first of all THEY were never considered *of the spirit*...theyu lived before Jesus Christ made Holy spirit available.
I understand a man living of the flesh...but but BUT.... VPW was supposed to be a man of the SPIRIT. There is a whole different criteria for what the behaviors of a man of the spirit would manifest.
Yeah, he didn`t do anything worse n David or solomon...I guess you make my point....he behaved as badly as the man of the flesh that galatians described...oops! We are told right there that he will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God...and I therefor think that any opinion he has on spiritual matters are highly suspect....
There is no question in my mind that PFAL teaches biblical truths, which ARE on the level of scripture. While I don't believe all (all without exception) are biblical truth, a lot of it is. Which yes, means that I believe Dr. Wierwille did have excellent spiritual understanding, despite his sins. Just like King Solomon.
Let's be honest. If you and others who condemn Wierwille and PFAL spent time examining and studying Solomon's sins, and really take his repugnant acts to heart, like you do Wierwille's repugnant acts, you would find the Book of Proverbs repugnant to read. You don't. Because your entire focus is on the sins of Wierwille, which is why you find PFAL repugnant and can't stand it when folks post good things about it.
You want honesty? Here it is:
I refuse to equate VPW on the same level as Solomon.
I CAN read Proverbs and be blessed if I want to. I understand not only the spiritual but the historical context. And I can understand and mark, that Solomon was in some respects a PIG and a hypocrite. I think that is part of what I am supposed to learn there.
If you want to post that you got blessed by something taught, fine. Be blessed. Good for you.
Just don't minimize, ignore, discount, and defame those women who were victimized by what VPW did and who have the guts to say so.
Also be prepared to face the fact that VPW added plaiagary to his wrongs, and many more people believe he is NOT the man he and others thougt he was, and he REFUSED to "be the man he knew to be."
My purpose here is to expose the ugly underbelly of The Way International, tell the truth of what I know about Victor Paul Wierwille, Loy Craig Martindale, and others, who do not deserve the overly-high esteem in which some hold them.
That purpose is specific. I am not here mostly on a recreational basis. I don't have that kind of time.
Anyway, I believe that the ministry started out in an effort to truly help God's people. That VPW wanted to help, and that he developed the PFAL class in order to help people.
<snip>
I believed/believe that God answered that prayer, and I always will. But, as I moved along within The Way Ministry, I saw changes that went from the delightful, to the not so cool, to the very very bad.
<snip>
you are going to get lambasted in what I believe to be in a very dishonest way.
The first part, Innocent Jonny, veepee didn't "develop" the PFAL class-HE STOLE IT... I have a hard time trying to rationalize that veepee was innocent and went bad when he was dishonest from the start... If you want to believe that he was all innocent and Godly intentioned from the start when YOU KNOW that he stold his classes and books from other authors... from the outset... well, how does that make sense?
The second part, Innocent Jonny, (as CC and others have pointed out to you) it was God who did those things, yet I notice-even in your own post-'within the Way Ministry'-you saw evil! ...And "who" started TWI? ..."who" ran TWI? ..."who" built TWI as he wanted it? (veepee)
The third part, Innocent Jonny, I believe you've learned very well...
******
A comment on Suda's post: Here's what I don't get... if you really like PFAL and want to hold onto it and give it the credit for helping you why don't you go back to the BG Leonard class? That's where he got it... it seems to me to be so easy to totally avoid TWI and any association with it to seek the Word that you hold dear... just get it from the places veepee did... you don't need veepee as the middleman.......
Yeah, he didn`t do anything worse n David or solomon...I guess you make my point....he behaved as badly as the man of the flesh that galatians described...oops! We are told right there that he will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God...and I therefor think that any opinion he has on spiritual matters are highly suspect....
That, right there was absolutely wonderful! Way to catch somebody sticking their foot in their mouth!
And that's what gets me ... all of the veepee defenders and glorifiers like to scream and holler about "the class" and "the books" of veepee... but they weren't his books! he copied them from others! ...so what are you defending? ...that he took a wonderful movement that was of God and by God and used it to satisfy his own ego and lusts? is that what you're defending?
because all of "the good" that I've ever heard folks talk about here, concerning veepee, has only to do with the classes and books that he pirated from others...
And that's what gets me ... all of the veepee defenders and glorifiers like to scream and holler about "the class" and "the books" of veepee... but they weren't his books! he copied them from others! ...so what are you defending? ...that he took a wonderful movement that was of God and by God and used it to satisfy his own ego and lusts? is that what you're defending?
because all of "the good" that I've ever heard folks talk about here, concerning veepee, has only to do with the classes and books that he pirated from others...
Just thought that beared repeating.
Yeah, he didn`t do anything worse n David or solomon...I guess you make my point....he behaved as badly as the man of the flesh that galatians described...oops! We are told right there that he will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God...and I therefor think that any opinion he has on spiritual matters are highly suspect....
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Catcup
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Catcup
quote name='WhiteDove' date='Jul 30 2007, 10:41 AM' post='353920']
So you are saying you evaluated her as a qualified doctor at the time of the event?
No, I did not say that. I am not a doctor, nor have I ever claimed to be a doctor. However, you don't have to be a doctor to make an observation as a trained professional. I can also look back on incidents that happened in the past, with the added education and training I have now, and more accurately evaluate what was going on.
or were you present as an eyewitness? That is verifying
Yes, I did say that.
That's proving or confirming (an allegation).
Did you do a toxicology test if not you can not say with any proof that she was drugged that may be your opinion and you can believe as you wish that does not verify anything as fact.
No, I did not do a toxicology test, and yes, it is my opinion.
But it is my opinion as a person who is trained to make such observations, and not as a "friend" supporting a "friend."
And if you were sure of your diagnosis ...
I did not make a diagnosis, nor did I claim to diagnose anyone. That is a loaded, legal word.
I made observations. Which is another loaded, legal word.
I am giving my opinion as a trained and educated professional with experience. Which is also loaded and legal.
I have not said anything on this board that I would not be willing to have quoted back to me in a court of law.
...shouldn't you have addressed the issue at that point? Rather than chaulking it up to a misunderstanding of craigs words...
Like many people back then (and some even today), at the time, I was not willing to believe the spiritual overseer in charge would make such a statement.
And yet you stayed around and supported this group for how many more years. One has to ask why did you not verify your account at that time.
Yes, I stayed around and supported this group for many more years, under the misguided notion I might be able to help fix the problems I saw.
I have to ask what do you mean, why did I not "verify my account at the time?"
Your a Corps grad you were supposed to be doing what the word says if you had knowledge of this behavior you should have taken it to whatever level you needed to rectify it.
What makes you think I didn't?
You also have to understand that at the time, I and others like me, felt those above me surely had to have my best interest at heart.
I was taught and believed, that if I noticed error in those persons, it was MY mistake, and I should look at it as me misunderstanding what I saw or heard. The Way Corps was taught, fed, nourished, believed and lived by that code.
We were taught that is what the Word says to do.
I took everything to my overseers that I felt was questionable.
Example: Another roommate I observed was exhibiting some pretty bizarre, depressive, self-destructive behavior, and was constantly in tears or trying to hide them. When I finally got her alone and asked her what was wrong, she said "I am being screwed by guys." When I asked her if she meant figuratively or literally, she said "Literally". I took this immediately to her in-residence branch coordinator, who said he would handle this.
Result: She was immediately moved out of my room and given another roommate.
I was instructed not to talk to her about it any more.
In the Corps, obedience was demanded, because, we were told, that was what the Word demanded. I obeyed.
I watched her grow more and more isolated. However, I had to "obey the Word." My leadership knew best.
Example: While walking through some isolated rooms in the upper regions of Kenyon hall, I found two married people lying on the floor behind a closed door in one of these rooms, locked in passionate embrace.
The problem?
They are not married to each other. And they are both prominent leaders. I closed the door and immediately took this to my overseer, who took it to the Corps Coordinator.
Result: The next thing I know, my twig coordinator accuses me of having sex with my fiance (which was not true) and told me to mind my own business.
And the incident with VPW. Who else am I supposed to take it to to rectify it? Did you not read that I confronted Victor Paul Wierwille himself?
When I asked him what had happened to her on his motor coach when he came to SC to visit the WOWs, he thundered and blustered and yelled and told me my sister "just couldn't handle the WOW field." The man intimidated me and made me feel like a worm for even asking the question.
I'd like to see exactly what YOU would have done at the time, standing in front of the man you truly believed was "THE Man of God over the entire world for our day and time."
Example: In 1982 and 1983 I confronted my department manager on staff at HQ. And at placements meetings in 1983, in the BRC, I confronted Emogene Allen, Bill Weingarner, and Donna Martindale all at the same time.
Result: Walter Cummins was denied his request for my presence on the research team, and I was offerred a job cleaning toilets at Der Veg.
Don Wierwille made a decision based lies fed to him by Auntie Em, that if I missed one day of scrubbing said toilets, that I would be fired from staff.
Rather than accept that staff position and the conditions prescribed, which were based on a pack of lies Emogene Allen propounded and they all swallowed, my husband and I refused on principle to stay on as staff at HQ. So Cummins not only did not get me on the research team, he also lost my husband.
I called the man who would be my region coordinator on the field to try to discuss what happened, and he refused to discuss it with me.
We returned to Chicago, and I tried to warn our immediate overseers and Limb Coordinator that there was something critically wrong at The Way International Headquarters at the Trustee level. We were then blackballed among the entire limb and region.
I repeatedly took issues I saw to the top. When I got too close to the truth I was marginalized, intimidated, sent on a wild goose chase, or defamed. When I finally got apologies for some things, these people, two of them TRUSTEES, went back on their word and back to their old habits. I tried for two decades to fix the place, confronting people at the cabinet and trustee level, found it hopelessly corrupt, and left.
I'd like to ask... who did YOU CONFRONT?
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pond
IM not in peril Catcup.
what is your opinion on just why not one RECORD legal record of these charges against VPW?
no one metions this stuff till he is dead enough . ironic hmm.
it really doesnt matter who believes what other than those who say they are victims didnt believe it enough at the time to prosecute.
that matters.
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Catcup
Women were intimidated into silence then, just like they are today. It's a little easier to speak out today than it was 20 or even 10 years ago. The issues regarding sexual assault are always difficult for the victim to discuss. One of the reasons is it is a very personal crime, and another is that women are routinely portrayed by defense counsel as having "asked for it." It's a routine defense strategy. Having to prosecute the crime is like being raped all over again, only in public. So many people fail to even report the crime. It is much easier to try to limp on alone rather than to face being traumatized repeatedly.
It is the very rare, brave woman who has enough courage and surrounding support to actually press charges.
That's why I have immense respect for women like Fern Allen and January Parker. And, for men like Paul Allen who had the guts to not drop his wife and run away from her, but support her and face the true villain and take him down, no matter what.
There was also no internet available when VPW was alive. Victims of TWI were much more isolated and alone than they are today.
Thanks again to Paul Allen and WayDale, and TransChat before him, and Pawtucket with GreaseSpotCafe, we can connect, find support, and we will not be easily intimidated and silenced any more.
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T-Bone
I think you're way off course here – elevating PFAL to the level of Scripture. You're confusing the twisted doctrines of a cult leader [vpw] with what real men of God wrote inspired by the Holy Spirit. Matthew 7 and II Peter 2 warns of false teachers and false prophets – they will be known by their fruit [fruit indicating what type of tree they are – the fruit of the wolf's labor has one goal - to prey upon the sheep], life-dominating sinful behavior, and poisonous teachings. No where in the Bible are we directed to honor such people – but rather to shun them – and as a service to our fellowman warn others!
It is ironic that one of the beneficial claims of PFAL was that it enables you to separate truth from error. What PFAL students failed to realize was that the criteria for discerning between truth and error was vpw's skewed viewpoint.
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Bumpy
Catcup, I can definitely see you writing at least one chapter in the new GS Cult book of Way Horrors!
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pond
make no mistake of the Vast difference between a civil lawsuit settled out of court and criminal charges of being drugged and raped . LCM faced his accusers, he did not have criminal charges against him the people who have issues with vpw waited untill he was dead and use the internet as thier voice box for state criminal acts. If he was alive and they could not prove it as truth they would be sued for slander.
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Catcup
Perhaps you should read this, Oldies. Or perhaps you should stop ignoring it:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/editor...-an-affair.html
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Catcup
Those women did not "wait" until VP was dead. They spoke out when they found the support and healing to do so. That takes time. If you want to draw a connection between the timing of his death and when they were able to finally get healing and find support, that's your prerogative. It doesn't mean you are correct. It means you are choosing to ignore other factors involved.
You also choose to ignore what I said previously about the difficulty a rape victim has about coming out to begin with.
You and others here are prime examples of why so many women choose to suffer in silence rather than put themselves on public display to be REvictimized by people like yourselves.
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Suda
Rascal and Catcup, I appreciate your replies. First let me apologize for linking your thoughts together and treating them as one. Though they are similar, they are not identical, and linking them was an error on my part.
It seems we agree on more points than we disagree on. My problem is with the extreme nature of only one of Catcup’s comments: “So do you think all the sacrifices these women and others were forced to make, were worth your "blessing"? That's pretty damn selfish, knowing their lives were sacrificed so VP could sell you on a pack of lies, which you obviously STILL BELIEVE” . Because they are so extreme, they are incredulous and unpalatable to me. To me they indicate a dichotomy of choices that is unrealistic - either twi was all good or it was all bad. And yet we all agree that God was present in the goodness of many people affiliated with twi.
Here’s the best analogy I can think of the express my concerns. I had an Jr. High English teacher (9th grade) who loved Shakespear, and that passion made her a fantastic teacher on the subject. Before her class, reading Shakespear was boring and confusing, I just didn’t get it. But she made it jump off the pages for me, she made it alive and dynamic, and to this day I enjoy reading the Bard because of her instruction. I will always feel thankfulness and gratitude towards her for this accomplishment in my life.
I was in Jr. High back in the 60's, and this English teacher was the epitome of that culture. She looked like she dropped right out of a Yardley commercial with her hair, make up, and dress. And she was a rebel, she enjoyed pushing the envelope. I have no problem with any of these traits. But she carried them to an extreme, and crossed the line of morality. This was done in her private life, not at school, but was still reprehensible. She lost her job a few years after I was her student because the School Board learned that she and her husband enjoyed an open marriage, and she recruited current and former male students to be her playmates. She threw wild parties that involved alcohol, and then liked to have sex with multiple students as the grand finale to the party. (I don’t know if her husband brought his own playmates, or if he just enjoyed watching her pull the train.) I don’t know how many of her students were willing participants, how many participated due to peer pressure, etc., but some of the students were very disturbed by it, and that is how it came to the attention of the school board. Also, their consent or lack of it was really not the issue. The issue was that she abused the power and authority of her position as their teacher to involve them in amoral behavior. That is unacceptable any way you cut it. That facet of her personal life was so amoral and repugnant to me that I lost my respect of her as “Jane Citizen”. However, I still have great respect for her as a teacher of Shakespear.
Now, if I take the statement above, and apply it to this situation, it might read as follows, “So do you think all the sacrifices these male students and others were forced to make, were worth your "blessing" in learning to appreciate Shakespear? That's pretty damn selfish, knowing their lives were sacrificed . . .” To that question, I would have to answer, they are not related. Her passion in teaching Shakespear was not based on her amoral behavior. They were two separate issues. One was good, one was bad. One was acceptable, one was unacceptable. My learning to love Shakespear under her tutelage was in no way related to her abuse of some of her students. So my “blessing” of learning to love Shakespear cannot be interpreted as being selfish. Nor were their lives sacrificed in order for me to learn about Shakespear. They are separate issues and totally unrelated. Therefore, if such a statement were made that tried to link them, I would find those statements to be unrealistic, unpalatable, and unbelievable.
Suda (who will take time this evening to catch up on the other posts made since my last entry last night)
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Catcup
VP DID screw her, if you read the entire account, Oldies.
And White Dove, she WAS eventually drugged, if you read the rest of the account.
Again, BOTH of you should stop ignoring the above posted link.
Here it is again, just in case you missed it (or are continuing to ignore it)
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/editor...-an-affair.html
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rascal
There was a REASON that the women didn`t report the drugging and rapes.
Number one, from the accounts, it was all very surreal, the disbelief that this was actually happening.....the man of God for our day and hour was giving every evidence of being nothing more than a filthy old pervert....then you are served a drink by the bus driver ...and everything gets fuzzy...the next coherant thought is of waking up in bed with the mog....a place that most who finally tell their stories never intended to be.
You find Dot`s account, where she was cornered in the coach and got away, cat cups sister etc...what was the difference in the stories of those who got away and those who didn`t??? ....the drink served by the bus driver....Those who got away had their reputations savaged and their characters assassinated with tales of posession in order to keep people from listening.
You have John Lynn saying that it had been happening for years......
Either vpw knew and condoned the drugging and is guilty of rape, or his driver was drugging the teenaged girls unbeknownst to him ...though I have trouble believing that he didn`t figure out sex with a passed out teenager was wrong.
Why didn`t this come forth when vp was alive??? I can only surmise the shame and embarrassment, add that together with the trauma of losing all family, friends, and spiritual support who were told to not have any contact, would make telling difficult. There was nobody TOO tell whom would believe.
Even here, when the stories are told, these ladies are treated badly by the ones who cannot handle the graphic truth of who and what these men were.
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Catcup
You hit the nail on the head, Rascal.
My sister not only waited until after VPW died to tell me what happened.
She waited for TWENTY TWO MORE YEARS after the incident first occurred. She waited until both I and my parents were safely OUT of TWI. Why?
She told me our family was all she had. She knew that if she told me what had really happened, we would not have believed her and she would have lost everything.
And you know what?
Sadly, she was right.
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pond
wow that is sad catcup!
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rascal
Cat, if I may...it is your story to tell...but I have read before and was deeply disturbed by your account of how vpw looked you straight in the eye and lied about why your 17 yr old sister had been thrown out. The man deliberately and coldly savaged her character and reputation and any respect or credibility that she had.
Whether it was because he had been thwarted or ....ed, or because he needed to cover his tracks to keep people from hearing her story....either one was a dispicable reason for a minister, a man who proclaimed to love God....it is inexcusable that they would destroy an innocent who had simply looked to them for spiritual guidance :(
I also remember talking with your father in chat and how he related to us that leadership had not asked,, but required that he not allow his own daughter in his home.....(whether to live of visit I forget....I hope that I have that correct)
I know these are your stories, I hope that you don`t mind that I bring back information shared in the past....but doggone it...I think people need to know how far beyond the pail this is of just a few lapses in character and judgement.
These people set out to destroy peoples lives with visciousness and utilizing any means within their power when thwarted. These grown adult older men savaging young naieve women who had no where to turn.
These aren`t the actions of benevolent ministers that made a few minor errors in judgement. It is cold hard calculated evil in my book.
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oldiesman
There is no question in my mind that PFAL teaches biblical truths, which ARE on the level of scripture. While I don't believe all (all without exception) are biblical truth, a lot of it is. Which yes, means that I believe Dr. Wierwille did have excellent spiritual understanding, despite his sins. Just like King Solomon.
Let's be honest. If you and others who condemn Wierwille and PFAL spent time examining and studying Solomon's sins, and really take his repugnant acts to heart, like you do Wierwille's repugnant acts, you would find the Book of Proverbs repugnant to read. You don't. Because your entire focus is on the sins of Wierwille, which is why you find PFAL repugnant and can't stand it when folks post good things about it.
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Catcup
Suda, thank you for your response, and yes, we agree on so many more things than we disagree.
My reason for the post was explained previously. It is to challenge someones thinking and get them to examine their values. For 10 years there have been people who have oocasionally shown up on this board and on WayDale, and on TransChat before that, who have openly stated or blatantly insinuated that:
They didn't CARE what VPW did to other people, because they got blessed by what VPW did, and if a few women were abused in the process, that's life, and they probably asked for it anyway.[/b]
Again, it is that attitude I challenge whenever I think I detect it. If that is not your attitude, and I don't think it is, I don't have a problem with you.
Also as I have previously stated, I do not deny that there were good things that happened to some people. I simply attribute those good things to God, and not to the organization, its structure, its classes, or its programs.
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rascal
Oldies, you are dead wrong in your summation of me and my opinion of david and solomon....first of all THEY were never considered *of the spirit*...theyu lived before Jesus Christ made Holy spirit available.
I understand a man living of the flesh...but but BUT.... VPW was supposed to be a man of the SPIRIT. There is a whole different criteria for what the behaviors of a man of the spirit would manifest.
Yeah, he didn`t do anything worse n David or solomon...I guess you make my point....he behaved as badly as the man of the flesh that galatians described...oops! We are told right there that he will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God...and I therefor think that any opinion he has on spiritual matters are highly suspect....
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Catcup
You want honesty? Here it is:
I refuse to equate VPW on the same level as Solomon.
I CAN read Proverbs and be blessed if I want to. I understand not only the spiritual but the historical context. And I can understand and mark, that Solomon was in some respects a PIG and a hypocrite. I think that is part of what I am supposed to learn there.
If you want to post that you got blessed by something taught, fine. Be blessed. Good for you.
Just don't minimize, ignore, discount, and defame those women who were victimized by what VPW did and who have the guts to say so.
Also be prepared to face the fact that VPW added plaiagary to his wrongs, and many more people believe he is NOT the man he and others thougt he was, and he REFUSED to "be the man he knew to be."
My purpose here is to expose the ugly underbelly of The Way International, tell the truth of what I know about Victor Paul Wierwille, Loy Craig Martindale, and others, who do not deserve the overly-high esteem in which some hold them.
That purpose is specific. I am not here mostly on a recreational basis. I don't have that kind of time.
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Tom Strange
(my bold ital)
The first part, Innocent Jonny, veepee didn't "develop" the PFAL class-HE STOLE IT... I have a hard time trying to rationalize that veepee was innocent and went bad when he was dishonest from the start... If you want to believe that he was all innocent and Godly intentioned from the start when YOU KNOW that he stold his classes and books from other authors... from the outset... well, how does that make sense?
The second part, Innocent Jonny, (as CC and others have pointed out to you) it was God who did those things, yet I notice-even in your own post-'within the Way Ministry'-you saw evil! ...And "who" started TWI? ..."who" ran TWI? ..."who" built TWI as he wanted it? (veepee)
The third part, Innocent Jonny, I believe you've learned very well...
******
A comment on Suda's post: Here's what I don't get... if you really like PFAL and want to hold onto it and give it the credit for helping you why don't you go back to the BG Leonard class? That's where he got it... it seems to me to be so easy to totally avoid TWI and any association with it to seek the Word that you hold dear... just get it from the places veepee did... you don't need veepee as the middleman.......
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rascal
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Eyesopen
That, right there was absolutely wonderful! Way to catch somebody sticking their foot in their mouth!
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Tom Strange
And that's what gets me ... all of the veepee defenders and glorifiers like to scream and holler about "the class" and "the books" of veepee... but they weren't his books! he copied them from others! ...so what are you defending? ...that he took a wonderful movement that was of God and by God and used it to satisfy his own ego and lusts? is that what you're defending?
because all of "the good" that I've ever heard folks talk about here, concerning veepee, has only to do with the classes and books that he pirated from others...
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Catcup
Just thought that beared repeating.
That too.
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