So it would be untruthful for us to say that someone was sacrified for our deliverance. They were not! They were violated because those in authority and power abused it. To say
QUOTE
That's pretty damn selfish, knowing their lives were sacrificed so VP could sell you on a pack of lies, which you obviously STILL BELIEVE
is an illogical and untrue statement on two fronts. First of all, it is not the “pack of lies” but the “gems of truth” that delivered us, and it is those gems we hold so dear. It seems most have left the pack of lies behind. And for us to accept the guilt for the violation of others by vpw and others would be unsound and misplaced. We are not to blame for their actions - they are - period!
Nothing we can do will change the horror of the evil things that happened it twi. It is beyond our control, and always was. What we do now is shed light on those to help people heal from those atrocities, get out of similar situations or avoid entangling themselves with them in the future.
By the same token, nothing will change the fact that Godliness and goodness also came out of association with twi. And it need not be hidden or discouraged from display due to the evil that was going on in the inner sanctum. One does not negate the other. Both the good and the evil were real and happened. Both should be open for display and discussion. We should rejoice in the good and keep it alive. We should scandalize and shame the evil, and help people overcome it and avoid being manipulated it by it in the future.
IMO, healing at this place comes from discussing the totality of our experiences with twi, the good and the bad. To accept only one and shun the other would not seem to allow a person to attain wholeness in their healing.
Too bad she didn`t walk away??? Did you even READ the account??? That she was probably drugged?? That John Lynn himself told her that it had been happening for years???
Jonny....You don`t just *walk away* after being drugged....your faculties are not entirely present...(Gee ... ya SUPPOSE that is why they had to drug the girls ? :blink: )...an entirely different situation than was with the oft presented scenario with your wife resisting a little temptation...Geeeze ....damned right she had a choice, luckily for her....it wasn`t the preadator vpw that had her in his sights and geer with his drink to facilitate .
Suda.....there is much more going on here than poor old `cid being picked on because they said a nice thing about twi/pfal.
I would hope that you would give me more credit then that. Thats what folks would like to portray this as.....it`s not....cid opened volly by declairing that the word the word and nothing but the word was ALL that was important.
I firmly disagree with that statement.. ( the second half of the thread title asked *and DO I still believe them*) AM I only allowed to respond if I DO believe this stuff???
The discussion then went from that to cid accusing me of laying untrue charges at the feet of these men...ie calling me a liar because he didn`t want to believe it.(I suppose I am suppose to ignore THAT accusation as well)
There were several willing to point him in the direction of accounts confirming my allegations.
Cid now has the choice of knowing or not, of deciding if the acts of these criminals have any bearing on the reliability of the information that they hold as truth.
Nobody is picking on the poor newby who blundered and said something nice concerning twi. There are some here who would make it that, some here who would try to use it as a chance to once again attack those whom hold view points that they just don`t like to face.
I have no problem with people saying nice things about twi, and am dissapointed that you would say that of me suda. What I did respond to was someone claiming that the only thing important was the word, and using that as a stick to beat people with...ok?
Most people here also agree that vpw had evil flaws in character which resulted in innocent people being violated and suffering great harm, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. They do not excuse that behavior, they detest it. And they can make the correlation between the evil in his life and the false teaching that resulted from it. Many of us spend quite a bit of time here in our early days making sense of the incongruity between the evil in the organization, and that despite it, God was able to reach, teach, heal, and deliver people and ignite the holy spirit in them.
However,
I find that the bare handful that DON'T agree on this have the tendency to belabour
this ad nauseum. If we ALL actually agreed on this, there wouldn't be endless
disagreements on this subject.
No names, but if you scroll back a few pages, you'll find someone posting that they consider
the victims' testimonies from those who have come forth to be little more than invented
slanders, meant to trivialize the wonderfulness of the wonderful vpw who did all sorts
of wonderful teachings in a wonderful ministry that was mostly rainbows and ponies
while he was in charge of it. pm me if you're unable to find it.
(I'm exercising dramatic license with the "rainbows and ponies" thing.)
It seems illogical to then say that because they enjoyed the goodness of God while associated with twi, that they believe the sacrifice of innocent lives was worth their “blessing.” I have NEVER seen anyone post this.
I have- but not recently, and it was by the notable exception you were thinking of,
who claimed all of twi/pfal was perfect.
However, I HAVE seen people trivialize the sufferings of others-
"they're lying" "they wanted it" "they sought it out themselves"
in order to shrink, in their minds, the harm vpw PERSONALLY did,
in order to justify their good experiences in twi WHILE vpw was
violating those who were not themselves,
and to justify the high level of respect they give vpw and pfal,
claiming they were as good as can be expected of humans.
That's not LITERALLY what you were speaking on, but it's a defense mechanism very
close to that very thing.
To me it is an unrealistic and twisted thought pattern. Certainly, if we had known on the front end that the cost of our deliverance through twi was the sacrifice of innocent people by evil leadership, we would not have made that choice. But we were never given that choice. It would have happened whether we took PFAL or never heard of it. So it would be untruthful for us to say that someone was sacrified for our deliverance. They were not! They were violated because those in authority and power abused it. To say is an illogical and untrue statement on two fronts. First of all, it is not the “pack of lies” but the “gems of truth” that delivered us, and it is those gems we hold so dear. It seems most have left the pack of lies behind. And for us to accept the guilt for the violation of others by vpw and others would be unsound and misplaced. We are not to blame for their actions - they are - period!
Nothing we can do will change the horror of the evil things that happened it twi. It is beyond our control, and always was. What we do now is shed light on those to help people heal from those atrocities, get out of similar situations or avoid entangling themselves with them in the future.
I agree.
I think that the evils should be acknowledged and understood, and we should all
do BOTH and THEN move on with our lives.
By the same token, nothing will change the fact that Godliness and goodness also came out of association with twi. And it need not be hidden or discouraged from display due to the evil that was going on in the inner sanctum. One does not negate the other. Both the good and the evil were real and happened. Both should be open for display and discussion. We should rejoice in the good and keep it alive. We should scandalize and shame the evil, and help people overcome it and avoid being manipulated it by it in the future.
IMO, healing at this place comes from discussing the totality of our experiences with twi, the good and the bad. To accept only one and shun the other would not seem to allow a person to attain wholeness in their healing.
Suda
There's some non-Christians who'd debate the first point with you.
Not me, but I think they have some valid points.
I'm perfectly fine with discussing BOTH types of experiences with twi- among the many types
we experienced, all of which are worth discussing, for good or ill.
I'm perfectly fine with considering acknowledgement of BOTH to be healthy and necessary.
I question whether everyone actually can ACCEPT that vpw performed evils personally,
and can frankly discuss them ever. Since that's 1/2 the equation, I don't see THEM
completing their stage of the journey, and I think their posts can reflect that.
Too bad she didn`t walk away??? Did you even READ the account??? That she was probably drugged?? That John Lynn himself told her that it had been happening for years???
Jonny....You don`t just *walk away* after being drugged....your faculties are not entirely present...(Gee ... ya SUPPOSE that is why they had to drug the girls ? :blink: )...an entirely different situation than was with the oft presented scenario with your wife resisting a little temptation...Geeeze ....damned right she had a choice, luckily for her....it wasn`t the preadator vpw that had her in his sights and geer with his drink to facilitate .
That anyone can say it was too bad that a woman who was drugged didn't "just walk away"
i.e. "she had a choice and could choose not to ose consciousness and thus
tacitly approve of anything done to her while unconscious"
illustrates my point.
(I think it's also telling that people keep trying to compare vpw-not with rapists, for he was one-
but with David, a king of Israel, a prophet, and a man selected by God,
as if vpw somehow shares any of those qualities with David.
vpw's more like Hophni and Phineas, Eli's sons (Eli taught Samuel), who supposedly
served God in his temple, but had sex with the women serving in the temple,
and otherwise corrupted his temple.)
Exactly how even-handed is this approach to what vpw did?
Suda.....there is much more going on here than poor old `cid being picked on because they said a nice thing about twi/pfal.
I would hope that you would give me more credit then that. Thats what folks would like to portray this as.....it`s not....cid opened volly by declairing that the word the word and nothing but the word was ALL that was important.
I firmly disagree with that statement.. ( the second half of the thread title asked *and DO I still believe them*) AM I only allowed to respond if I DO believe this stuff???
The discussion then went from that to cid accusing me of laying untrue charges at the feet of these men...ie calling me a liar because he didn`t want to believe it.(I suppose I am suppose to ignore THAT accusation as well)
There were several willing to point him in the direction of accounts confirming my allegations.
You left out the insinuation that ANY allegations by ANY number of people are BY DEFINITION false accounts,
which saves the trouble of actually READING THE ACCOUNTS.
Cid now has the choice of knowing or not, of deciding if the acts of these criminals have any bearing on the reliability of the information that they hold as truth.
Nobody is picking on the poor newby who blundered and said something nice concerning twi. There are some here who would make it that, some here who would try to use it as a chance to once again attack those whom hold view points that they just don`t like to face.
And we've seen that again, too....
I have no problem with people saying nice things about twi, and am dissapointed that you would say that of me suda. What I did respond to was someone claiming that the only thing important was the word, and using that as a stick to beat people with...ok?
If the ONLY thing important is "the Word" (and what that means is open to the
interpretation of the person who's saying it), then the PEOPLE are of lesser importance,
or NO importance AT ALL.
We learned that the hard way in twi, some of us a LOT harder than others.
Seems some people are still walking around thinking that's perfectly acceptable.
Too bad she didn`t walk away??? Did you even READ the account??? That she was probably drugged?? That John Lynn himself told her that it had been happening for years???
Actually to keep the record straight that is what M said John said and he may well have. John can come here and speak for himself, And what makes John who has an ax to grind after loosing his cush job and who also is in the thick of it himself, the sole authority on what did or did not happen?
. Thanks for the reply Catcup so when you said I can verify what you meant was, I can verify "part" of the story, the part that deals with R**k, and how you can verify is that you believe what she told you.
No, that is not what I meant.
I can verify much more than what you insinuate. This is NOT, I repeat NOT me "believing what she told you."
I know M.
I, first-hand, know not only her and Rick, but several of the people she mentions in her story. I am part of what happened to her. I watched her change over that time period from the happy person I knew into someone who was more and more withdrawn, depressed, and confused by what happened to her. There's much more I am not going to say about it, to protect her privacy.
No offence but that is hardly verifying anything that is accepting an account of an incident at face value.
This is not an account of an incident I "accepted at face value."
This happens all the time Crystal Gail Mangum recounted her incident in the Duke rape trial and many believed her account until the facts determined otherwise.
Please don't tell me you are equating M's account of what happened to her with this woman in the Duke rape trial. There is no comparison whatsoever of M's life and the life of the person who did that.
Are you saying M lied about VPW the way Crystal Gail Magnum lied about the Duke athletes?
Michael Vick is telling his account of how he is innocent in his dog fighting case, although the evidence is not looking good for him. There are those that believe him as well but that hardly verifies his story it just means that they choose to believe it for various reasons maybe because they are friends or teammates.
You are comparing M, who was drugged and raped, with a man who is accused of dogfighting?
I am not choosing to believe M's story just because I was a "friend" or roommate. It is based on a deeper evaluation of the totality of what I observed.
I can understand how you might accept the account at face value as she was your roommate and knowing of R**k and other things he has done you may be correct in your assessment but it still falls short of verifying and this is how stuff starts here , later on it shows up as this story was verified by posters on GreaseSpot.
Here's what I can verify for you as:
1.) Someone with first hand knowledge of M and several of the people mentioned in M's account
2.) Someone professionally trained and educated to spot physical, verbal, emotional, and sexual abuse in victims
3.) Someone with first-hand knowledge of dealing with and counseling such victims
4.) Someone who has recovered from rape myself
M was identified as potential prey. She was groomed and unknowingly prepared. She was pimped by Cathy Oriard. She was drugged. She was raped. She was used against her will by a man she was told and believed was the "Man of God of the entire world." She was devastaed emotionally, physically, psychologically, and financially. And her life will never be the same.
I understand that there are some people who simply cannot believe that VPW actually did these heinous things. I am sorry you are having such a hard time with this, but he did these things. He ruined peoples lives, used them, and threw them away like so much trash when he was done, because he felt he was entitled to.
Here's another clue for you. VPW also tried to do this to my own 17 year old, virginal sister, and when she resisted, he ruined her life. I and my parents were left to deal with the fallout of the damage he caused. When I confronted him, he blustered, stormed, intimidated, and lied straight to my face.
Here's another clue. A member of VPW's own family has admitted to me that although they at first found these things difficult to believe, they now understand, from me, how it in fact happened.
I enjoy reading Catcup’s posts. They are very enlightening and she adds much to the healing process here at GSC. Her participation is an great asset to this place. I do struggle with her response to Deciderator on m’s story, though. Maybe I’m just missing what she, Rascal, and others are saying. After reading my thoughts, if that is the case, please enlighten me.
First of all, thank you. Hopefully I can clarify for you what I believe here.
My feelings on this were covered somewhat on the Misplaced Guilt thread I started. The good experiences during twi most people post about have to do with how God was living and real in their lives, their spiritual growth, and the way in which the majority of people really cared and ministered to one another.
I agree with this statement. God is God and can reach you anywhere, even in the depths of hell. I believe God reached us in TWI, I just believe that He was trying to get us OUT of it, not continue our involvement. The good I experienced in TWI had to do with individual people and the purity of their hearts and intentions. Usually this was among my peer group or people for whom I was responsible as a leader, and rarely, someone higher up in the leadership structure. The good I found came from God and the people, and NOT from the structure of TWI, not from the organization of TWI. That part had long become hopelessly corrupt, and I for years battled people who were hell bent on keeping that structure in place.
The role PFAL played was in imparting some knowledge on how to make this lifestyle a reality in their lives. With the exception of one poster here, I have never heard anyone say that every word in PFAL was true, but rather that parts were true and changed their lives.
The role PFAL played in your life may not be the role it played in the lives of others on this board. Just as parts of that class may have changed your life for the better, parts of that class changed many other peoples lives for the worse. It gave people a reason to doubt their own judgement. It gave people a reason to silence their conscience. It gave people a reason to believe they couldn't spiritually survive without the "Teacher," the teaching, and the organization. It caused many to turn their allegience from God to a man, and to an organization made by man for his own purpose. So while you and many others may see that part of what you learned as pivotal in a positive influence in your life, it was the destruction of the lives of countless others.
God was at the center of the “good times” - that’s what made them good.
Agreed, in some instances. In many others, it was a blissful deception.
Most people here also agree that vpw had evil flaws in character which resulted in innocent people being violated and suffering great harm, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. They do not excuse that behavior, they detest it.
Good. They should.
And they can make the correlation between the evil in his life and the false teaching that resulted from it. Many of us spend quite a bit of time here in our early days making sense of the incongruity between the evil in the organization, and that despite it, God was able to reach, teach, heal, and deliver people and ignite the holy spirit in them.
Like I said before, I believe God can reach us in the depths of hell, but He is trying to lead us out of it.
It seems illogical to then say that because they enjoyed the goodness of God while associated with twi, that they believe the sacrifice of innocent lives was worth their “blessing.” I have NEVER seen anyone post this.
I have seen many post about this over the past 10 years on WD and GSC. Several posters believe the good accomplished by VPW outweighed the evil he and his organization wrought, they themselves got a lot out of their involvement, their lives were changed in a positive way, and if a few people got hurt along the way, then, well, that's life. Too bad. All the rest must surely be people exaggerating.
It is THAT attitude I detest, and it is that attitude I challenge, because it is that attitude that in its very nature, suggests that the sacrifice of a few virgins was worth what they got out of it. Those who have been around a while and are reading this surely recall right now the names of more than a few posters over the years who have expressed this sentiment.
They were violated because those in authority and power abused it.
I wholeheartedly agree.
By the same token, nothing will change the fact that Godliness and goodness also came out of association with twi. And it need not be hidden or discouraged from display due to the evil that was going on in the inner sanctum. One does not negate the other. Both the good and the evil were real and happened. Both should be open for display and discussion. We should rejoice in the good and keep it alive. We should scandalize and shame the evil, and help people overcome it and avoid being manipulated it by it in the future.
I attribute any godliness and goodness to God and association with His people, and NOT to my association with TWI as an organization or in any of it's classes, seminars, books, requirements, or programs. God worked in people around me before, during, and after my involvement with TWI. I for one, refuse to give them credit for anything but robbing people's lives. Because for the most part, that's what they eventually did, regardless of how the organization began or the intent with which it started.
IMO, healing at this place comes from discussing the totality of our experiences with twi, the good and the bad. To accept only one and shun the other would not seem to allow a person to attain wholeness in their healing.
I have no problem with people saying nice things about twi
Yes you do. It is evident. Whenever anyone says anything nice about TWI, you jump in and start your whole thing about raped women, destroyed lives, etc. Just look at this whole thread. And if you deny that, then you are not an honest person. This thread is about "A few big things I learned in PFAL" and do I still believe them?" But now, it has turned into a big "rape case, VP and his evil minions brouhaha, etc ". But, that is your mission I suppose, which is your prerogative I guess. But it is too bad the thread has been so badly derailed.
Ya know, when I see a thread entitled something like "Destroyed Lives by TWI" (a fictitious title-I can't remember any exact titles with similar content), I don't even go there (for I have read it all before, years ago now), or, if I do read the thread, I read through it, but I don't try and de-rail it, because I know that those are sensitive issues, particularly amongst those who were hurt. But when someone starts a relatively benign thread, here comes the usual gang to derail it as fast as they can. It gets mighty tiresome. But I suppose that for the usual gang, it's their mission, and other's feelings and view points be damned.
And so, something that was a big blessing to me in PFAL was that I learned that I could be born again of God's spirit, and that I had sonship with my Heavenly Father, and that this was something that the World could never take away. That I was saved by Grace and not by works. Now that was so contrary to the modern Christianity that I had been exposed to that it was a total and completely wonderful breath of fresh air which is The Truth. Man I loved that when I first learned that in PFAL. And I still believe it.
And so, something that was a big blessing to me in PFAL was that I learned that I could be born again of God's spirit, and that I had sonship with my Heavenly Father, and that this was something that the World could never take away. That I was saved by Grace and not by works. Now that was so contrary to the modern Christianity that I had been exposed to that it was a total and completely wonderful breath of fresh air which is The Truth. Man I loved that when I first learned that in PFAL. And I still believe it.
Those are all things I still believe.
However, I did not learn them in PFAL. I learned them in The Washington Avenue Baptist Church. They were also reinforced to me in a Methodist church. And again in a Pentecostal church. And again in a Jesus movement. Now, those were good old days.
So do you think all the sacrifices these women and others were forced to make, were worth your "blessing"?
That's pretty damn selfish, ...
I think it's much more selfish to antagonize folks who still love PFAL and the concepts they learned from it.
You know what, if the above statement by CATCUP were really an honest and godly way to think, that folks should repudiate the teachings and communications of those who have sinned, I think the Book of Proverbs wouldn't have been included in the bible and should not be read. Let's be honest about it. Just look at the sins of Solomon as you do with Wierwille.
I also think that the offshoots are great, especially CFF. They still hold VP AND PFAL IN HIGH REGARD. --- That must REALLY TICK SOME FOLKS OFF, know what I mean?
the feelings are strong. both ways. when i go to the lake it is so beautiful and peaceful till I smell the stink of the dead fish on the shore.
how is one going to stop the other? cant do it really. but it is everyone opinion to form about what is written, the confusion is much is said in hear say and I think type of terms .
Just the facts doesnt work here. because the man has been dead for decades and first person testimony about what happened to them is gone. this site is all about believing who you chose to believe and trust, and because of that the fact is when a poster has been around for awhile they have more "friends" or those who will understand what they are saying and jump in to support .
Jonny, come ON...you see what you WANT to see in me....I think that your perception is distorted by your personal dislike.
I said that I didn`t have a problem...and I don`t. I explained my whole issue AND how it was within context of the title of this thread.
'If in your skimming of my posts you missed it...I will reiterate. The title of this thread IS *a few big things I learned in pfal (A) and do you still believe them (b)*.
If thy didn`t want to know whether I stilled believe em...they shouldnaadded the second question ...shrug
I didn`t contradict a single poster....UNTILL
`Cid said *the word the word and nothing but the word* was the ONLY thing that was important...nothing else mattered.
In keeping with the second question in the thread title..I took issue with the position put forth by cid , and cid alone (I didn`t deny anything anybody else wrote) propositon that nothing else but the word mattered.
For you to lay any other motive than that to my posts, or accuse me of not allowing someone to say something nice about twi is a flat out lie..Jonny
Please, if you want to be irritated with me, be honest....do so about what I actually write. not what you ish to believe.
I also think that the offshoots are great, especially CFF. They still hold VP AND PFAL IN HIGH REGARD. --- That must REALLY TICK SOME FOLKS OFF, know what I mean?
actually, I'm sad that they don't know any better..
You know what, if the above statement by CATCUP were really an honest and godly way to think, that folks should repudiate the teachings and communications of those who have sinned, I think the Book of Proverbs wouldn't have been included in the bible and should not be read.
Re read the post, Oldies, it's not a statement.
It's a question.
Designed to get you to evaluate your own thinking and values in light of the truth of what happened to these women.
Let's be honest about it. Just look at the sins of Solomon as you do with Wierwille.
Sorry, I refuse to put those two men on the same level.
I also think that the offshoots are great, especially CFF. They still hold VP AND PFAL IN HIGH REGARD.
"They"?
That just might depend on who you talk to within the organization. So far they have allowed for a variety of opinion.
I can verify much more than what you insinuate. This is NOT, I repeat NOT me "believing what she told you."
I know M.
I, first-hand, know not only her and Rick, but several of the people she mentions in her story. I am part of what happened to her. I watched her change over that time period from the happy person I knew into someone who was more and more withdrawn, depressed, and confused by what happened to her. There's much more I am not going to say about it, to protect her privacy.
This is not an account of an incident I "accepted at face value."
Please don't tell me you are equating M's account of what happened to her with this woman in the Duke rape trial. There is no comparison whatsoever of M's life and the life of the person who did that.
Are you saying M lied about VPW the way Crystal Gail Magnum lied about the Duke athletes?
You are comparing M, who was drugged and raped, with a man who is accused of dogfighting?
I was not asking you to divulge any privacy details and I was not comparing her in all parts to Ms Magnum or Mr. Vick the point being is that anyone can say anything it goes on all the time and there are always people around who will accept at face value what they say. That does not make it right or wrong it makes it what it is an account. To verify something is a different matter
ver·i·fy
1. to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate: Events verified his prediction.
2. to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison: to verify a spelling.
3. to act as ultimate proof or evidence of; serve to confirm.
4. Law. a. to prove or confirm (an allegation).
b. to state to be true, esp. in legal use, formally or upon oath.
I am not choosing to believe M's story just because I was a "friend" or roommate. It is based on a deeper evaluation of the totality of what I observed.
Here's what I can verify for you as:
1.) Someone with first hand knowledge of M and several of the people mentioned in M's account
2.) Someone professionally trained and educated to spot physical, verbal, emotional, and sexual abuse in victims
3.) Someone with first-hand knowledge of dealing with and counseling such victims
4.) Someone who has recovered from rape myself
So you are saying you evaluated her as a qualified doctor at the time of the event? or were you present as an eyewitness? That is verifying That's proving or confirming (an allegation). Did you do a toxicology test if not you can not say with any proof that she was drugged that may be your opinion and you can believe as you wish that does not verify anything as fact. And if you were sure of your diagnosis shouldn't you have addressed the issue at that point? Rather than chaulking it up to a misunderstanding of craigs words.
M was identified as potential prey. She was groomed and unknowingly prepared. She was pimped by Cathy Oriard. She was drugged. She was raped. She was used against her will by a man she was told and believed was the "Man of God of the entire world." She was devastaed emotionally, physically, psychologically, and financially. And her life will never be the same.
I understand that there are some people who simply cannot believe that VPW actually did these heinous things. I am sorry you are having such a hard time with this, but he did these things. He ruined peoples lives, used them, and threw them away like so much trash when he was done, because he felt he was entitled to.
You assume that I am having a hard time with this. You assume wrong , I never addressed that I believed either way on the issue only that it was not verified. I am having a hard time with accounts being regarded as verifying, proof, to be accepted as truth or fact when they are not verifiable according to standards which one would use to do this.
Here's another clue for you. VPW also tried to do this to my own 17 year old, virginal sister, and when she resisted, he ruined her life. I and my parents were left to deal with the fallout of the damage he caused. When I confronted him, he blustered, stormed, intimidated, and lied straight to my face.
And yet you stayed around and supported this group for how many more years. One has to ask why did you not verify your account at that time. Your a Corps grad you were supposed to be doing what the word says if you had knowledge of this behavior you should have taken it to whatever level you needed to rectify it.
Here's another clue. A member of VPW's own family has admitted to me that although they at first found these things difficult to believe, they now understand, from me, how it in fact happened.
Just the facts doesnt work here. because the man has been dead for decades and first person testimony about what happened to them is gone. this site is all about believing who you chose to believe and trust, and because of that the fact is when a poster has been around for awhile they have more "friends" or those who will understand what they are saying and jump in to support .
The fact is, VPW may be gone, but the first person testimony of those who he harmed IS STILL AROUND, AND WILL BE FOR DECADES TO COME.
It is that testimony that people choose to either believe or ignore.
I think you ignore it to your own peril, and to the degradation of those VPW et al victimized.
In first grade, I had a teacher by the name of Mrs. Storm. She taught me how to read, and my reading abilities flourished under her teaching. It started me off into the wonderful world oof literature. But, she was a wicked woman. One time, five of us signed our name on the chalk board so we could go to the bathroom, a new thing Mrs. Storm said we first graders could do. But only one of us really needed to go to the bathroom, and that was Dicky Seegmiller. The rest of us wanted to get out of class and just goof off. Dicky, meanwhile, was sitting on the pot taking a dump. All of the sudden, Mrs. Storm burst into the bathroom, headed straight to the stall where Dicky was and slammed the door opened, grabbed Dicky off the pot, and with his pants and underwear to his ankles, dragged him out into the hallway. We four followed. The rest of the class had come out into the hallway to watch. And there, in front of the entire class, girls included of course, Mrs. Storm proceeded to shake Dicky by the shoulders until his head flopped. (In fact, I had been the recipient of her vicious shaking many a time, with her bloody finger nail marks in my shoulders). And Dicky was sobbing. And everybody saw him in his embarrassed nakedness. And then after screaming at him for wasting time in the bathroom, she just dumped him on the floor and stomped back into the classroom. All of us were aghast. And Dicky lay srumpled on the floor sobbing. Me and my friends helped him up and told him to pull his pants up, and we took him back to class. As it turns out, by sixth grade, Dicky was a real mess. Maybe that incident started the ruination of his life. I don't know.
And so, I guess I will never use my reading skills again because I learned them from Mrs. Storm.
Too bad "M", or whoever that is didn't have the guts to walk away that first time like my wife did when Craig tried the same s h it on her.
Jonny's statement makes perfect sense although maybe one could substitute sense rather than guts. It appears from her story that she did in fact have a chance to walk away. read her account:
Two days later Cathy came to get me. I followed her to the camp where VP's motor coach was parked. The front of the motor coach was a sitting area and a table, both made into beds. He appeared to like the gifts we brought and poured himself a drink. Cathy, Howard and I also had one. VP then went into the back of the coach. He called me back there. He had undressed and was lying nude, face down on one of the two beds in the rear of the coach. He asked me to give him a back rub. Odd as it sounds, I did not find this at all strange. Back rubs were very common with the Corp and WOW's. While he was laying face down I gave him a rub from head to toe. He rolled over on his back and indicated I should continue, so I gave him a rub again from head to toe, except for his genitals.
When I was done, he looked at me and said, "You are not finished."
I was sitting on the side of the bed. I looked at my hands that were laying palm up in my lap and I started to jabber. That is really the only word for it. I began to talk in a sing song voice about Greg. I told him all I could think of to say about Greg. When I fell silent he smiled at me and said, " That's nice, now go on." And I did.
I cannot tell you everything that happened next; (the reason will become evident). But later, (much later for when this started it was light outside and it had been dark for a long, long time) he told me to get into the other bed. As I was climbing over him he smacked me on my bare bottom and said, "I didn't screw you, but it wouldn't have hurt you if I had."
I got into the other bed and laid there with my eyes wide open, not blinking, but with silent tears running out, until
day light. When it was light, I got dressed and went out to my car. I was in a rage. I spun the tires of my car until I had flung all the gravel, grass and dirt beneath them onto the motor coach and I roared out of there.
That was the first time.
She returned to be alone knowing what had transpired, I think one has to accept a level of personal accountability for putting oneself in harms way. She was not drugged when she returned she walked in of her own power. That does not excuse what happened or make it justifiable in any way but it does not by the same token excuse the truth that she did have a way out and was not drugged and had no options as insinuated.
All I ask is that you base your dislike and disagreement on what I actually write and what my position actually is.
I have explained myself and pointed out why your assumption is wrong.
You can either accept the information, or continue to believe what you want to pretend that my position actually is...only that would not be very honest.
Sorry, I refuse to put those two men on the same level.
I suppose they shouldn't be thought of as the same, as Solomon did MUCH worse evil!
The principle is the same though. If the teachings of flawed humans who greatly sin are contaminated so much so that the teachings must be discarded, then Proverbs and Song of Solomon must be discarded.
That just might depend on who you talk to within the organization. So far they have allowed for a variety of opinion.
Wow, what spin! They (the leaders) still hold Dr. Wierwille and his teachings (PFAL) in high regard. While repudiating Wierwille's sins, they still honor Dr. Wierwille for his works sake, which the bible says to do. Don't believe me, speak to Wayne Clapp. I did, a few months ago when he ran my sister's memorial service. Make no mistake, CFF honors Wierwille.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
J0nny Ling0
Bravo Suda! Bravo!
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rascal
Too bad she didn`t walk away??? Did you even READ the account??? That she was probably drugged?? That John Lynn himself told her that it had been happening for years???
Jonny....You don`t just *walk away* after being drugged....your faculties are not entirely present...(Gee ... ya SUPPOSE that is why they had to drug the girls ? :blink: )...an entirely different situation than was with the oft presented scenario with your wife resisting a little temptation...Geeeze ....damned right she had a choice, luckily for her....it wasn`t the preadator vpw that had her in his sights and geer with his drink to facilitate .
Suda.....there is much more going on here than poor old `cid being picked on because they said a nice thing about twi/pfal.
I would hope that you would give me more credit then that. Thats what folks would like to portray this as.....it`s not....cid opened volly by declairing that the word the word and nothing but the word was ALL that was important.
I firmly disagree with that statement.. ( the second half of the thread title asked *and DO I still believe them*) AM I only allowed to respond if I DO believe this stuff???
The discussion then went from that to cid accusing me of laying untrue charges at the feet of these men...ie calling me a liar because he didn`t want to believe it.(I suppose I am suppose to ignore THAT accusation as well)
There were several willing to point him in the direction of accounts confirming my allegations.
Cid now has the choice of knowing or not, of deciding if the acts of these criminals have any bearing on the reliability of the information that they hold as truth.
Nobody is picking on the poor newby who blundered and said something nice concerning twi. There are some here who would make it that, some here who would try to use it as a chance to once again attack those whom hold view points that they just don`t like to face.
I have no problem with people saying nice things about twi, and am dissapointed that you would say that of me suda. What I did respond to was someone claiming that the only thing important was the word, and using that as a stick to beat people with...ok?
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year2027
God first
Beloved all
God loves us all my dear friends
what if I said the word called the bible is only a book ?
on the outside its just a book and that as far as we got in the way when we were there
but its a guide book or road map to a personal walk with God and Christ
that which is hiding in the words to show us a way to fellowship with God face to face
yes no fleshly face has seen God or ever will see God
but our spiritual face can talk face to face right here and now
will I guess I have now said the bible is just a book but its all so a road map or a guide book of inner directions
stop here before I talk to must
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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WordWolf
However,
I find that the bare handful that DON'T agree on this have the tendency to belabour
this ad nauseum. If we ALL actually agreed on this, there wouldn't be endless
disagreements on this subject.
No names, but if you scroll back a few pages, you'll find someone posting that they consider
the victims' testimonies from those who have come forth to be little more than invented
slanders, meant to trivialize the wonderfulness of the wonderful vpw who did all sorts
of wonderful teachings in a wonderful ministry that was mostly rainbows and ponies
while he was in charge of it. pm me if you're unable to find it.
(I'm exercising dramatic license with the "rainbows and ponies" thing.)
I have- but not recently, and it was by the notable exception you were thinking of,who claimed all of twi/pfal was perfect.
However, I HAVE seen people trivialize the sufferings of others-
"they're lying" "they wanted it" "they sought it out themselves"
in order to shrink, in their minds, the harm vpw PERSONALLY did,
in order to justify their good experiences in twi WHILE vpw was
violating those who were not themselves,
and to justify the high level of respect they give vpw and pfal,
claiming they were as good as can be expected of humans.
That's not LITERALLY what you were speaking on, but it's a defense mechanism very
close to that very thing.
I agree.
I think that the evils should be acknowledged and understood, and we should all
do BOTH and THEN move on with our lives.
There's some non-Christians who'd debate the first point with you.
Not me, but I think they have some valid points.
I'm perfectly fine with discussing BOTH types of experiences with twi- among the many types
we experienced, all of which are worth discussing, for good or ill.
I'm perfectly fine with considering acknowledgement of BOTH to be healthy and necessary.
I question whether everyone actually can ACCEPT that vpw performed evils personally,
and can frankly discuss them ever. Since that's 1/2 the equation, I don't see THEM
completing their stage of the journey, and I think their posts can reflect that.
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WordWolf
That anyone can say it was too bad that a woman who was drugged didn't "just walk away"
i.e. "she had a choice and could choose not to ose consciousness and thus
tacitly approve of anything done to her while unconscious"
illustrates my point.
(I think it's also telling that people keep trying to compare vpw-not with rapists, for he was one-
but with David, a king of Israel, a prophet, and a man selected by God,
as if vpw somehow shares any of those qualities with David.
vpw's more like Hophni and Phineas, Eli's sons (Eli taught Samuel), who supposedly
served God in his temple, but had sex with the women serving in the temple,
and otherwise corrupted his temple.)
Exactly how even-handed is this approach to what vpw did?
You left out the insinuation that ANY allegations by ANY number of people are BY DEFINITION false accounts,which saves the trouble of actually READING THE ACCOUNTS.
And we've seen that again, too....
If the ONLY thing important is "the Word" (and what that means is open to the
interpretation of the person who's saying it), then the PEOPLE are of lesser importance,
or NO importance AT ALL.
We learned that the hard way in twi, some of us a LOT harder than others.
Seems some people are still walking around thinking that's perfectly acceptable.
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WhiteDove
Too bad she didn`t walk away??? Did you even READ the account??? That she was probably drugged?? That John Lynn himself told her that it had been happening for years???
Actually to keep the record straight that is what M said John said and he may well have. John can come here and speak for himself, And what makes John who has an ax to grind after loosing his cush job and who also is in the thick of it himself, the sole authority on what did or did not happen?
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Catcup
No, that is not what I meant.
I can verify much more than what you insinuate. This is NOT, I repeat NOT me "believing what she told you."
I know M.
I, first-hand, know not only her and Rick, but several of the people she mentions in her story. I am part of what happened to her. I watched her change over that time period from the happy person I knew into someone who was more and more withdrawn, depressed, and confused by what happened to her. There's much more I am not going to say about it, to protect her privacy.
This is not an account of an incident I "accepted at face value."
Please don't tell me you are equating M's account of what happened to her with this woman in the Duke rape trial. There is no comparison whatsoever of M's life and the life of the person who did that.
Are you saying M lied about VPW the way Crystal Gail Magnum lied about the Duke athletes?
You are comparing M, who was drugged and raped, with a man who is accused of dogfighting?
I am not choosing to believe M's story just because I was a "friend" or roommate. It is based on a deeper evaluation of the totality of what I observed.
Here's what I can verify for you as:
1.) Someone with first hand knowledge of M and several of the people mentioned in M's account
2.) Someone professionally trained and educated to spot physical, verbal, emotional, and sexual abuse in victims
3.) Someone with first-hand knowledge of dealing with and counseling such victims
4.) Someone who has recovered from rape myself
M was identified as potential prey. She was groomed and unknowingly prepared. She was pimped by Cathy Oriard. She was drugged. She was raped. She was used against her will by a man she was told and believed was the "Man of God of the entire world." She was devastaed emotionally, physically, psychologically, and financially. And her life will never be the same.
I understand that there are some people who simply cannot believe that VPW actually did these heinous things. I am sorry you are having such a hard time with this, but he did these things. He ruined peoples lives, used them, and threw them away like so much trash when he was done, because he felt he was entitled to.
Here's another clue for you. VPW also tried to do this to my own 17 year old, virginal sister, and when she resisted, he ruined her life. I and my parents were left to deal with the fallout of the damage he caused. When I confronted him, he blustered, stormed, intimidated, and lied straight to my face.
Here's another clue. A member of VPW's own family has admitted to me that although they at first found these things difficult to believe, they now understand, from me, how it in fact happened.
You're welcome.
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Catcup
First of all, thank you. Hopefully I can clarify for you what I believe here.
I agree with this statement. God is God and can reach you anywhere, even in the depths of hell. I believe God reached us in TWI, I just believe that He was trying to get us OUT of it, not continue our involvement. The good I experienced in TWI had to do with individual people and the purity of their hearts and intentions. Usually this was among my peer group or people for whom I was responsible as a leader, and rarely, someone higher up in the leadership structure. The good I found came from God and the people, and NOT from the structure of TWI, not from the organization of TWI. That part had long become hopelessly corrupt, and I for years battled people who were hell bent on keeping that structure in place.
The role PFAL played in your life may not be the role it played in the lives of others on this board. Just as parts of that class may have changed your life for the better, parts of that class changed many other peoples lives for the worse. It gave people a reason to doubt their own judgement. It gave people a reason to silence their conscience. It gave people a reason to believe they couldn't spiritually survive without the "Teacher," the teaching, and the organization. It caused many to turn their allegience from God to a man, and to an organization made by man for his own purpose. So while you and many others may see that part of what you learned as pivotal in a positive influence in your life, it was the destruction of the lives of countless others.
Agreed, in some instances. In many others, it was a blissful deception.
Good. They should.
Like I said before, I believe God can reach us in the depths of hell, but He is trying to lead us out of it.
I have seen many post about this over the past 10 years on WD and GSC. Several posters believe the good accomplished by VPW outweighed the evil he and his organization wrought, they themselves got a lot out of their involvement, their lives were changed in a positive way, and if a few people got hurt along the way, then, well, that's life. Too bad. All the rest must surely be people exaggerating.
It is THAT attitude I detest, and it is that attitude I challenge, because it is that attitude that in its very nature, suggests that the sacrifice of a few virgins was worth what they got out of it. Those who have been around a while and are reading this surely recall right now the names of more than a few posters over the years who have expressed this sentiment.
I wholeheartedly agree.
I attribute any godliness and goodness to God and association with His people, and NOT to my association with TWI as an organization or in any of it's classes, seminars, books, requirements, or programs. God worked in people around me before, during, and after my involvement with TWI. I for one, refuse to give them credit for anything but robbing people's lives. Because for the most part, that's what they eventually did, regardless of how the organization began or the intent with which it started.
I agree.
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J0nny Ling0
Rascal said:
Yes you do. It is evident. Whenever anyone says anything nice about TWI, you jump in and start your whole thing about raped women, destroyed lives, etc. Just look at this whole thread. And if you deny that, then you are not an honest person. This thread is about "A few big things I learned in PFAL" and do I still believe them?" But now, it has turned into a big "rape case, VP and his evil minions brouhaha, etc ". But, that is your mission I suppose, which is your prerogative I guess. But it is too bad the thread has been so badly derailed.
Ya know, when I see a thread entitled something like "Destroyed Lives by TWI" (a fictitious title-I can't remember any exact titles with similar content), I don't even go there (for I have read it all before, years ago now), or, if I do read the thread, I read through it, but I don't try and de-rail it, because I know that those are sensitive issues, particularly amongst those who were hurt. But when someone starts a relatively benign thread, here comes the usual gang to derail it as fast as they can. It gets mighty tiresome. But I suppose that for the usual gang, it's their mission, and other's feelings and view points be damned.
And so, something that was a big blessing to me in PFAL was that I learned that I could be born again of God's spirit, and that I had sonship with my Heavenly Father, and that this was something that the World could never take away. That I was saved by Grace and not by works. Now that was so contrary to the modern Christianity that I had been exposed to that it was a total and completely wonderful breath of fresh air which is The Truth. Man I loved that when I first learned that in PFAL. And I still believe it.
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Catcup
Those are all things I still believe.
However, I did not learn them in PFAL. I learned them in The Washington Avenue Baptist Church. They were also reinforced to me in a Methodist church. And again in a Pentecostal church. And again in a Jesus movement. Now, those were good old days.
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Catcup
"Didn't have the guts"??????????????
Maybe she was lucky it was Craig she walked away from.
Maybe she was lucky she could walk at the time.
My sister said no to VPW and he went out of his way to ruin her life.
It's not as simple as you would like to believe it is.
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oldiesman
I think it's much more selfish to antagonize folks who still love PFAL and the concepts they learned from it.
You know what, if the above statement by CATCUP were really an honest and godly way to think, that folks should repudiate the teachings and communications of those who have sinned, I think the Book of Proverbs wouldn't have been included in the bible and should not be read. Let's be honest about it. Just look at the sins of Solomon as you do with Wierwille.
I also think that the offshoots are great, especially CFF. They still hold VP AND PFAL IN HIGH REGARD. --- That must REALLY TICK SOME FOLKS OFF, know what I mean?
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pond
no one is dammed really. johnny.
the feelings are strong. both ways. when i go to the lake it is so beautiful and peaceful till I smell the stink of the dead fish on the shore.
how is one going to stop the other? cant do it really. but it is everyone opinion to form about what is written, the confusion is much is said in hear say and I think type of terms .
Just the facts doesnt work here. because the man has been dead for decades and first person testimony about what happened to them is gone. this site is all about believing who you chose to believe and trust, and because of that the fact is when a poster has been around for awhile they have more "friends" or those who will understand what they are saying and jump in to support .
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Ham
fleeting shadows a a few great(?) names..
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rascal
Jonny, come ON...you see what you WANT to see in me....I think that your perception is distorted by your personal dislike.
I said that I didn`t have a problem...and I don`t. I explained my whole issue AND how it was within context of the title of this thread.
'If in your skimming of my posts you missed it...I will reiterate. The title of this thread IS *a few big things I learned in pfal (A) and do you still believe them (b)*.
If thy didn`t want to know whether I stilled believe em...they shouldnaadded the second question ...shrug
I didn`t contradict a single poster....UNTILL
`Cid said *the word the word and nothing but the word* was the ONLY thing that was important...nothing else mattered.
In keeping with the second question in the thread title..I took issue with the position put forth by cid , and cid alone (I didn`t deny anything anybody else wrote) propositon that nothing else but the word mattered.
For you to lay any other motive than that to my posts, or accuse me of not allowing someone to say something nice about twi is a flat out lie..Jonny
Please, if you want to be irritated with me, be honest....do so about what I actually write.
not what you ish to believe.
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Ham
actually, I'm sad that they don't know any better..
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Catcup
Re read the post, Oldies, it's not a statement.
It's a question.
Designed to get you to evaluate your own thinking and values in light of the truth of what happened to these women.
Sorry, I refuse to put those two men on the same level.
"They"?
That just might depend on who you talk to within the organization. So far they have allowed for a variety of opinion.
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WhiteDove
No, that is not what I meant.
I can verify much more than what you insinuate. This is NOT, I repeat NOT me "believing what she told you."
I know M.
I, first-hand, know not only her and Rick, but several of the people she mentions in her story. I am part of what happened to her. I watched her change over that time period from the happy person I knew into someone who was more and more withdrawn, depressed, and confused by what happened to her. There's much more I am not going to say about it, to protect her privacy.
This is not an account of an incident I "accepted at face value."
Please don't tell me you are equating M's account of what happened to her with this woman in the Duke rape trial. There is no comparison whatsoever of M's life and the life of the person who did that.
Are you saying M lied about VPW the way Crystal Gail Magnum lied about the Duke athletes?
You are comparing M, who was drugged and raped, with a man who is accused of dogfighting?
I was not asking you to divulge any privacy details and I was not comparing her in all parts to Ms Magnum or Mr. Vick the point being is that anyone can say anything it goes on all the time and there are always people around who will accept at face value what they say. That does not make it right or wrong it makes it what it is an account. To verify something is a different matter
ver·i·fy
1. to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate: Events verified his prediction.
2. to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison: to verify a spelling.
3. to act as ultimate proof or evidence of; serve to confirm.
4. Law. a. to prove or confirm (an allegation).
b. to state to be true, esp. in legal use, formally or upon oath.
I am not choosing to believe M's story just because I was a "friend" or roommate. It is based on a deeper evaluation of the totality of what I observed.
Here's what I can verify for you as:
1.) Someone with first hand knowledge of M and several of the people mentioned in M's account
2.) Someone professionally trained and educated to spot physical, verbal, emotional, and sexual abuse in victims
3.) Someone with first-hand knowledge of dealing with and counseling such victims
4.) Someone who has recovered from rape myself
So you are saying you evaluated her as a qualified doctor at the time of the event? or were you present as an eyewitness? That is verifying That's proving or confirming (an allegation). Did you do a toxicology test if not you can not say with any proof that she was drugged that may be your opinion and you can believe as you wish that does not verify anything as fact. And if you were sure of your diagnosis shouldn't you have addressed the issue at that point? Rather than chaulking it up to a misunderstanding of craigs words.
M was identified as potential prey. She was groomed and unknowingly prepared. She was pimped by Cathy Oriard. She was drugged. She was raped. She was used against her will by a man she was told and believed was the "Man of God of the entire world." She was devastaed emotionally, physically, psychologically, and financially. And her life will never be the same.
I understand that there are some people who simply cannot believe that VPW actually did these heinous things. I am sorry you are having such a hard time with this, but he did these things. He ruined peoples lives, used them, and threw them away like so much trash when he was done, because he felt he was entitled to.
You assume that I am having a hard time with this. You assume wrong , I never addressed that I believed either way on the issue only that it was not verified. I am having a hard time with accounts being regarded as verifying, proof, to be accepted as truth or fact when they are not verifiable according to standards which one would use to do this.
Here's another clue for you. VPW also tried to do this to my own 17 year old, virginal sister, and when she resisted, he ruined her life. I and my parents were left to deal with the fallout of the damage he caused. When I confronted him, he blustered, stormed, intimidated, and lied straight to my face.
And yet you stayed around and supported this group for how many more years. One has to ask why did you not verify your account at that time. Your a Corps grad you were supposed to be doing what the word says if you had knowledge of this behavior you should have taken it to whatever level you needed to rectify it.
Here's another clue. A member of VPW's own family has admitted to me that although they at first found these things difficult to believe, they now understand, from me, how it in fact happened.
You're welcome.
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Catcup
The fact is, VPW may be gone, but the first person testimony of those who he harmed IS STILL AROUND, AND WILL BE FOR DECADES TO COME.
It is that testimony that people choose to either believe or ignore.
I think you ignore it to your own peril, and to the degradation of those VPW et al victimized.
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J0nny Ling0
In first grade, I had a teacher by the name of Mrs. Storm. She taught me how to read, and my reading abilities flourished under her teaching. It started me off into the wonderful world oof literature. But, she was a wicked woman. One time, five of us signed our name on the chalk board so we could go to the bathroom, a new thing Mrs. Storm said we first graders could do. But only one of us really needed to go to the bathroom, and that was Dicky Seegmiller. The rest of us wanted to get out of class and just goof off. Dicky, meanwhile, was sitting on the pot taking a dump. All of the sudden, Mrs. Storm burst into the bathroom, headed straight to the stall where Dicky was and slammed the door opened, grabbed Dicky off the pot, and with his pants and underwear to his ankles, dragged him out into the hallway. We four followed. The rest of the class had come out into the hallway to watch. And there, in front of the entire class, girls included of course, Mrs. Storm proceeded to shake Dicky by the shoulders until his head flopped. (In fact, I had been the recipient of her vicious shaking many a time, with her bloody finger nail marks in my shoulders). And Dicky was sobbing. And everybody saw him in his embarrassed nakedness. And then after screaming at him for wasting time in the bathroom, she just dumped him on the floor and stomped back into the classroom. All of us were aghast. And Dicky lay srumpled on the floor sobbing. Me and my friends helped him up and told him to pull his pants up, and we took him back to class. As it turns out, by sixth grade, Dicky was a real mess. Maybe that incident started the ruination of his life. I don't know.
And so, I guess I will never use my reading skills again because I learned them from Mrs. Storm.
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WhiteDove
Jonny's statement makes perfect sense although maybe one could substitute sense rather than guts. It appears from her story that she did in fact have a chance to walk away. read her account:
Two days later Cathy came to get me. I followed her to the camp where VP's motor coach was parked. The front of the motor coach was a sitting area and a table, both made into beds. He appeared to like the gifts we brought and poured himself a drink. Cathy, Howard and I also had one. VP then went into the back of the coach. He called me back there. He had undressed and was lying nude, face down on one of the two beds in the rear of the coach. He asked me to give him a back rub. Odd as it sounds, I did not find this at all strange. Back rubs were very common with the Corp and WOW's. While he was laying face down I gave him a rub from head to toe. He rolled over on his back and indicated I should continue, so I gave him a rub again from head to toe, except for his genitals.
When I was done, he looked at me and said, "You are not finished."
I was sitting on the side of the bed. I looked at my hands that were laying palm up in my lap and I started to jabber. That is really the only word for it. I began to talk in a sing song voice about Greg. I told him all I could think of to say about Greg. When I fell silent he smiled at me and said, " That's nice, now go on." And I did.
I cannot tell you everything that happened next; (the reason will become evident). But later, (much later for when this started it was light outside and it had been dark for a long, long time) he told me to get into the other bed. As I was climbing over him he smacked me on my bare bottom and said, "I didn't screw you, but it wouldn't have hurt you if I had."
I got into the other bed and laid there with my eyes wide open, not blinking, but with silent tears running out, until
day light. When it was light, I got dressed and went out to my car. I was in a rage. I spun the tires of my car until I had flung all the gravel, grass and dirt beneath them onto the motor coach and I roared out of there.
That was the first time.
She returned to be alone knowing what had transpired, I think one has to accept a level of personal accountability for putting oneself in harms way. She was not drugged when she returned she walked in of her own power. That does not excuse what happened or make it justifiable in any way but it does not by the same token excuse the truth that she did have a way out and was not drugged and had no options as insinuated.
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rascal
All I ask is that you base your dislike and disagreement on what I actually write and what my position actually is.
I have explained myself and pointed out why your assumption is wrong.
You can either accept the information, or continue to believe what you want to pretend that my position actually is...only that would not be very honest.
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oldiesman
I suppose they shouldn't be thought of as the same, as Solomon did MUCH worse evil!
The principle is the same though. If the teachings of flawed humans who greatly sin are contaminated so much so that the teachings must be discarded, then Proverbs and Song of Solomon must be discarded.
Wow, what spin! They (the leaders) still hold Dr. Wierwille and his teachings (PFAL) in high regard. While repudiating Wierwille's sins, they still honor Dr. Wierwille for his works sake, which the bible says to do. Don't believe me, speak to Wayne Clapp. I did, a few months ago when he ran my sister's memorial service. Make no mistake, CFF honors Wierwille.
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Ham
Now if they put up a shrine in his honor, you might be able to say that of the whole organization..
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