For the record, I, too, have stated many times that I had lots of good experiences in TWI#1.
What I have difficulty understanding is why there are people who insist that, because they saw good things during their involvement, anyone who had contrary experiences must be mistaken.
I personally saw some very sweet times and also saw things that were blatantly wrong.
I am thankful for the good things I saw yet I'm not so naive and oblivious as to obscure the memories I have of events that were clearly not in alignment with what I understand to be God's Word.
I, for one, have no problem with someone cherishing their fond memories.
I know I cherish mine.
I think it is wrong, however, to insist that their experiences must represent the true nature of the organization.
HEY! Calm down there Jonny! The point I was making was more subtle than you suggested.
Yes, I know that you weren't introduced to... (the first two examples are ridiculous so I won't address them) the Watchtower.
Yes, I know it was an excited WOW Ambassador that witnessed to you. (I can read.)
My point is that God sent you a Christian that wanted to do His will. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE.
I'm not so sure that God interests himself in classes. I feel confident that many, many people that never heard of vpw, or TWI, or took the class got born again and learned to listen to His voice. I feel confident that it even happened that very same day that you were witnessed to by that WOW. I'll bet there were others that got born again in that very same city without the aid of pfal.
My point is that GOD knows how to reach a heart. The allegiance belongs to him and not a class or a ministry. And I'm not only talking about TWI either...
I had good times. I met good people.
I started my time in the ministry with a prayer that I wrote out to God pledging my allegiance to HIM. I ended it when that "Loyalty Letter" got filed under "13."
Jonny ...those men were adopted, they weren`t of the spirit....today, now that spirit is available...as christians, genuine christians, the spirit within us makes us a different being, sets a different standard than was there for those men of the flesh.
There is a different standard for us...I agree that vpw and his leaders were on equal footing with those of the flesh...I wonder if the were ever of the spirit...genuine christians.
Galatians says no, and that they, those that manifest those fruit of the flesh that we KNOW vpw did.... have no inheritance.
mr. rator or mr. decide said (that's a hard handle for me to remember)
The only one I have dealt with you named was Chris Geer. I was at Gartmore for 6 weeks in 1990 and I didn't see anyone raped or turned into sex slaves.
Rascal, I recognize those things as heinous. And I recognize that they happened in The Way. I am just saying that I don't believe that it was VPWs intent at first, that he wanted to help at first but went bad due to the same sins that mankind many times succumbs to, that's all. It's perhaps the only place where you and I diverge I 'spose.
Rascal, I recognize those things as heinous. And I recognize that they happened in The Way. I am just saying that I don't believe that it was VPWs intent at first, that he wanted to help at first but went bad due to the same sins that mankind many times succumbs to, that's all. It's perhaps the only place where you and I diverge I 'spose.
Dooj, I edited that last post. I told you that I'd mis-read it. Sorry. But now I'll read your "keep yer panties on" post. :)
Thanks Jonny. I am glad that we can remain civil in our discussions and while examining our diverging view points. I think that there is much that we can learn by listening.
Ya know Dooj, my sister had a book by Anais Nin, and it was a book of erotic stories, for which I have read she is also famous. But what was disturbing is that there were many stories in it that were about adults with children. Older men with little girls for instance. So, when I saw your little tagline deal, it was disturbing to me. Tell that it is a different "Anais Nin"
Edited by Jonny Lingo
Ya know Dooj, my sister had a book by Anais Nin, and it was a book of erotic stories, for which I have read she is also famous. But what was disturbing is that there were many stories in it that were about adults with children. Older men with little girls for instance. So, when I saw your little tagline deal, it was disturbing to me. Tell that it is a different "Anais Nin"
I only used the quote because I liked that quote. I read some Anais Nin a long time ago and was really surprised that she had said this. None of the stories I read were of the nature you stated. I was more intrigued by the soaring of the imagination than anything else.
If I find a quote I like better, I'll replace Nin's quote.
I wore a g-thong once, on my wedding night. I'd gotten it at my bachelor party. It was white with a big red heart on the front. I did it to make my brand new wife laugh...
And hey Dooj, it's okay about Nin. The quote you have is just fine. I just wondered if you'd ever heard of that part of her history. Somebody here had a really great woman's quote. Something like; Well-behaved women rarely make history. Oh, that was you. Like that one alot. I always think of the "UnSinkable Molly Brown" when I read that quote.
My problem is, that most genuine christians make mistakes....very few though habitually chose to indulge in cruel evil behavior that is so destructive to their fellow saints.
Drugging and rape, drunkeness and adultery, wholesale destruction of peoples lives....these are behaviors that most people are just not tempted to succumbe to
I think that there is a reason that these men and women behaved without a conscience. I think that the answere is in galations 5. I don`t think that a knowledge of the scriptures precludes one from being very very evil.
I think that *it`s the word the word and nothing but the word* is a distraction from our real spiritual obligations Jesus set forth.
but how do you feel about veepee and motorcoach and young ladies that didn't know what was going on
do you consider that kind of thing damaged goods
(i know you apologized) but i still wonder about your perception of him
First all, I want you to read what I just said to Rascal:
Rascal, I recognize those things as heinous. And I recognize that they happened in The Way. I am just saying that I don't believe that it was VPWs intent at first, that he wanted to help at first but went bad due to the same sins that mankind many times succumbs to, that's all. It's perhaps the only place where you and I diverge I 'spose.
Okay, so first of all, I know that these things happened. Whether they happened to "the t" as described by some, I don't know. But, any kind of extramarital sex with the MOGS (that term just cracks me up!), encouraged by them is in fact a sin and is as I said "heinous". Now when you ask;
do you consider that kind of thing damaged goods
I am not sure what you are asking. If you are asking if those who were the perpetrators were "damaged goods", I would definitely say yes. Now, according to one poster here, a woman, there was definitely a certain circle of women who were proud to have been a part of all of that, servicing the MOGs ya know. I would have to say that if they were involved and recruiting women into all of that that they were acting in a very damaged manner as well. Could they have become more damaged by it, even though they willingly participated? Yes. Could they be over it by now? Yes. But, maybe no. Only they know I spose.
And those who were innocent, are they damaged now? I dunno. They could be very damaged. They could have gotten over it by now and could be leading productive lives with all of that behind them. Just depends upon them, and or their time table I spose. I pray that all who got hurt in that manner can get to where they are not hurt by it any more. If it were me, I would be endeavoring to put it behind me as soon as possible, so that the "inflictors" would no longer be able to hurt me, the "inflictee". That way I wouldn't be "flicted" no more. But that's just me.
We become damaged either by our own wrong decisions, or because we trust someone who then damages us. VP damaged himself and then others because he succumbed to the temptation of sin for a very long season.
What do I think of VPW you ask? I am thankful to God that he taught the PFAL class, and that I got to sit through it. I am very not happy that he succumbed to the desires of the flesh and hurt so many people. But I won't throw out the good that I learned from him just because he lost it and became a really bad guy when the power went to his head.
What else did I like about PFAL? Well, how's this:
Knock knock.
Who's there?
To
To who?
Tohu Bohu!
My back hurts from all this typing. Gotta go. Y'all ahve a nice weekend!
We become damaged either by our own wrong decisions, or because we trust someone who then damages us. VP damaged himself and then others because he succumbed to the temptation of sin for a very long season.
What do I think of VPW you ask? I am thankful to God that he taught the PFAL class, and that I got to sit through it. I am very not happy that he succumbed to the desires of the flesh and hurt so many people. But I won't throw out the good that I learned from him just because he lost it and became a really bad guy when the power went to his head.
(snip)
See, it's posts like this that illustrate that your position and mine are not really as far apart as
some might think.
1) vpw taught some good stuff.
2) vpw chose to hurt a lot of people.
3) Anything that was taught that was good, remains so in spite of the harm to people.
We both agree on those, and they seem to be the major points.
Where we differ is largely in what specifically was good that was taught,
(what was accurate, what was error, what was helpful, what was harmfut),
which are doctrinal issues,
and some wrangling over who got hurt and how much, which I don't see as
particularly useful to discuss unless the parties involved are discussing them.
The things I object to primarily aren't there- they are the
"vpw didnt really harm a lot of people, he was really a nice guy falsely accused" stuff,
the "twi never had a harmful side, and was always sweetness and light" stuff.
Me, I wasn't really exposed to the harmful side, and am well aware there were many
positive experiences while in twi- mine and other people's, but that doesn't erase the
existence of the bad experiences had by others, and attempts to belittle or erase THOSE
get my attention.
My posts are a whole lot nicer and more interesting when people don't try to
pull that one ad nauseum. I don't know if you've caught that.
Deciderator. The fact is, when a person here says anything positive about what they learned in The Way Ministry, or from VPW, or from CG, or from when they were out WOW or in The Corps, there is a definite knee jerk reaction by a certain group here (who seem to be well represented in this feeding frenzy), who will tear at and try to tear down anything positive about The Way. It infuriates them that the "well laid out work" that they have presented has any opposition whatsoever, even though the poster presenting something positive is not even trying to "be in opposition", but rather, just wants to share. But also remember, there are many many here who do not post, but rather watch and lurk and read and endeavor to make up their own minds in these matters, and I, personally like to try and present those positive aspects that I found in The Way Ministry, so that things here are not so one sided.
I certainly see what you mean.
I posted one thing positive I took from the class, something that has helped me and others and suddenly a group decides they know what I think, what idols I have, my opinions on other matters, how I related to certain people, etc.
Rather than take my words to indicate my opinion, and nothing else, some decide they can tell what I REALLY mean, then proceed to ascribe to me things I did not say, then debate the straw man they set up, and then pretend they were addressing me all along!
Somehow this is supposed to open my eyes.
I'm no spring chicken, and something I am learning more and more as I age is the importance of loving and forgiving people who have done me and others harm. I see more and more the forgiveness, grace and mercy of my heavenly Father in the Scriptures and in my own life as time goes by my capacity for having those qualities increases. I'm not saying I got-em mastered, but I'm working on it.
I don't know, maybe some on the board are unhappy that someone would take seriously,
"...and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
I have never heard anyone say there is too much kindness in the world
I have never heard anyone say there is too much forgiveness in the world
I have never heard anyone say there is too much love in this world.
Sorry that angers some people, but that's just how I roll.
if this is the first time you have come across the information on this site about the sex stuff i understand your hurt and judgement.
you say forgive but then write about how wrong the posts have been .
that doesnt make any sense does it?
unless you want to pick and chose who to believe and forgive and love which at the end of the day we all do.
really.
spring or winter people have strong feelings about stuff and this board debates alot of feelings and happenings.
if they do not agree with you that is ok and you do not agree with them that is ok.
it is a public forum.
one problem i think your experiencing is you think people are thinking something about what you wrote .. and they may not be! or they agree with another post and they may not be!
you leave alot open in the manner you write for people to guess, so they ask and then you accuse them of an idea that isnt even remotely close.
when you do not answer somtimes people assume.
i know you do , and i ask you to consider instead of assuming everyone gets what your saying or has a full understanding and please be mindful of what the posts are saying.
this isnt a group thing, every post is an individual post written by a different person with a different idea or question.
your not a victim of anything "group". some posters do agree with one another others do not.
I posted one thing positive I took from the class, something that has helped me and others and suddenly a group decides they know what I think, what idols I have, my opinions on other matters, how I related to certain people, etc.
Rather than take my words to indicate my opinion, and nothing else, some decide they can tell what I REALLY mean, then proceed to ascribe to me things I did not say, then debate the straw man they set up, and then pretend they were addressing me all along!
Somehow this is supposed to open my eyes.
I'm no spring chicken, and something I am learning more and more as I age is the importance of loving and forgiving people who have done me and others harm. I see more and more the forgiveness, grace and mercy of my heavenly Father in the Scriptures and in my own life as time goes by my capacity for having those qualities increases. I'm not saying I got-em mastered, but I'm working on it.
I don't know, maybe some on the board are unhappy that someone would take seriously,
"...and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
I have never heard anyone say there is too much kindness in the world
I have never heard anyone say there is too much forgiveness in the world
I have never heard anyone say there is too much love in this world.
Sorry that angers some people, but that's just how I roll.
Welcome Deciderato!
Both you and Jonny's opinions here along with all of us have some validity and I agree not everything was bad and a lot was good. None of us fully understands; nor is fully right. That is why opinion is used; to assess, to evaluate and to re-evaluate and to seek out the facts and the truth Most everyone here recognizes that! None of us are without flaws or sins, pains, losses or heartbreaks and heartaches. God did not abdicate His throne and choose anyone to sit in His seat; to judge, to condemn, to reward, to praise and on and on of all His unending responsibilities...............!
We have many many things in common. We all just need to heal and grow. Sometimes, by laying it out here and seeking opinions, we are helped to understand and to put the puzzles together; so that we can move on or help someone else...or the yet lurking see it. We need to find our bearings again and to learn the things we missed out on to be able to fill in the gaps.
For me the destination will always be after the truth about God. That is why I joined TWI... to find GOD and His ways and desires, His designs and His heart! I met a lot of the best people in all the earth along the way>>>My Brothers and Sisters>>>who I dearly love and am thankful for!
I do not understand all the many and vastly different intricate changes that go on in peoples lives and hearts...I think that God does and we can help where we can! More than anything concerning this, I am hopeful that we never quit till we find our own bearings and our own puzzle pieces that will help us to be whole.
It takes a while to adjust from being unduly influenced or controlled. I highly commend all who make it through the processes! Many don't, they stay in the same sick patterns and often learn to justify themselves or play the blame game. Ironically, not because change is too hard; but because they think it is! It takes diligent effort, self-discipline and self-control to develop your own opinion and to study and seek out knowledge or find the truth
Research is one of the best things I learned from TWI. They didn't mess up the true and accurate meanings of word definitions. Often they skewed, twisted or clouded them...intentionally or not. We still have all the words in all our languages to gather in truth! Some skewed, twisted clouded and entangled peoples lives and hearts. GOD made us strong enough to untangle all these trappings and He is our heavy lifter! He will judge and avenge us
Let's give each other a stronger hand, a lot more love, time and patience!
Great posts everyone! One of the great PFAL "principles" that is debunked here at Grease Spot is "you can't go beyond what you're taught." Evident on just about every thread is that people don't think alike. Everyone has a unique perspective and experiences. Amidst all the clatter of folks talking about what's good about PFAL, what's bad about PFAL – there appears to be something that has happened…or rather continues to happen…and I think it's a NORMAL process…called growth. It's a natural byproduct of using our critical and creative thinking skills…We no longer allow ourselves to be fettered by the intellectual ball and chain of TWI.
you say forgive but then write about how wrong the posts have been
We all have our foibles. One thing that gets under your skin may not bother me, and vice versa.
I don't like people deliberately lying. Especially when that is supposed to somehow bring me to some "truth".
Maybe you are the sort who doesn't mind meeting someone, and that person immediately deciding on their own that you held certain beliefs or had certain opinions, and then that person conversed with the false "you."
Of course those who do such things are to be forgiven. I try to be quck to forgive.
In this forum, these out-and-out favbrications have been made about me, and they are right there for all to see.
I am owed apologies from some people here.
I try to be quick to forgive and do not see a mumbled "sorry" as the end of it. No, the practice which i have sort of unconsciously adopted over the years is afterwards to try to get along with the person I have offended or who has offended me. I spend tome with them, look for areas of common ground.
I happen to be a Southern gentleman, one of impeccable bloodlines and I enjoy an opportunity to charm, especially a lady.
You would really enjoy being around me, pond.
that doesnt make any sense does it?
one problem i think your experiencing is you think people are thinking something about what you wrote .. and they may not be! or they agree with another post and they may not be!
you leave alot open in the manner you write for people to guess, so they ask and then you accuse them of an idea that isnt even remotely close.
I don't think, I know, and you ate aware of this.
The thing to do is to use the quote feature as I am here to directly address what the person is saying.
And pond, when you see someone taking my words and then saying something such as, "Well when I hear someone say ______[quoting me}_______ then I know it means ____[words and meanings not in my post]_______ then please feel free to speak up.
when you do not answer somtimes people assume.
I can't get to every one.
And some are just plain dopey and a waste of time.
Pond, you can't deny that since I began posting here that some people have tried to mold me into fitting a strictly-defined stereotype and they resist any opportunity to see anything else.
They act like they're brainwashed or something.........
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
waysider
Jonny
I see your point, I really do.
For the record, I, too, have stated many times that I had lots of good experiences in TWI#1.
What I have difficulty understanding is why there are people who insist that, because they saw good things during their involvement, anyone who had contrary experiences must be mistaken.
I personally saw some very sweet times and also saw things that were blatantly wrong.
I am thankful for the good things I saw yet I'm not so naive and oblivious as to obscure the memories I have of events that were clearly not in alignment with what I understand to be God's Word.
I, for one, have no problem with someone cherishing their fond memories.
I know I cherish mine.
I think it is wrong, however, to insist that their experiences must represent the true nature of the organization.
Well, that's just my opinion.
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doojable
HEY! Calm down there Jonny! The point I was making was more subtle than you suggested.
Yes, I know that you weren't introduced to... (the first two examples are ridiculous so I won't address them) the Watchtower.
Yes, I know it was an excited WOW Ambassador that witnessed to you. (I can read.)
My point is that God sent you a Christian that wanted to do His will. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE.
I'm not so sure that God interests himself in classes. I feel confident that many, many people that never heard of vpw, or TWI, or took the class got born again and learned to listen to His voice. I feel confident that it even happened that very same day that you were witnessed to by that WOW. I'll bet there were others that got born again in that very same city without the aid of pfal.
My point is that GOD knows how to reach a heart. The allegiance belongs to him and not a class or a ministry. And I'm not only talking about TWI either...
I had good times. I met good people.
I started my time in the ministry with a prayer that I wrote out to God pledging my allegiance to HIM. I ended it when that "Loyalty Letter" got filed under "13."
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rascal
Jonny ...those men were adopted, they weren`t of the spirit....today, now that spirit is available...as christians, genuine christians, the spirit within us makes us a different being, sets a different standard than was there for those men of the flesh.
There is a different standard for us...I agree that vpw and his leaders were on equal footing with those of the flesh...I wonder if the were ever of the spirit...genuine christians.
Galatians says no, and that they, those that manifest those fruit of the flesh that we KNOW vpw did.... have no inheritance.
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excathedra
mr. rator or mr. decide said (that's a hard handle for me to remember)
wish you had known him before 1990
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J0nny Ling0
Rascal, I recognize those things as heinous. And I recognize that they happened in The Way. I am just saying that I don't believe that it was VPWs intent at first, that he wanted to help at first but went bad due to the same sins that mankind many times succumbs to, that's all. It's perhaps the only place where you and I diverge I 'spose.
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J0nny Ling0
Rascal, I recognize those things as heinous. And I recognize that they happened in The Way. I am just saying that I don't believe that it was VPWs intent at first, that he wanted to help at first but went bad due to the same sins that mankind many times succumbs to, that's all. It's perhaps the only place where you and I diverge I 'spose.
Dooj, I edited that last post. I told you that I'd mis-read it. Sorry. But now I'll read your "keep yer panties on" post. :)
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rascal
Thanks Jonny. I am glad that we can remain civil in our discussions and while examining our diverging view points. I think that there is much that we can learn by listening.
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doojable
Jonny - I must have been posting as you were - I missed a few of your posts entirely...
I never said you wear panties... :huh:
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J0nny Ling0
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waysider
Oh, sure, you never "said" it, but--------------------
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J0nny Ling0
And, Rascal, Okay. :)
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doojable
I only used the quote because I liked that quote. I read some Anais Nin a long time ago and was really surprised that she had said this. None of the stories I read were of the nature you stated. I was more intrigued by the soaring of the imagination than anything else.
If I find a quote I like better, I'll replace Nin's quote.
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J0nny Ling0
I wore a g-thong once, on my wedding night. I'd gotten it at my bachelor party. It was white with a big red heart on the front. I did it to make my brand new wife laugh...
And hey Dooj, it's okay about Nin. The quote you have is just fine. I just wondered if you'd ever heard of that part of her history. Somebody here had a really great woman's quote. Something like; Well-behaved women rarely make history. Oh, that was you. Like that one alot. I always think of the "UnSinkable Molly Brown" when I read that quote.
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doojable
I am unsinkable... ;) And I try to behave - but sometimes it's just sooo hard to be good!
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excathedra
jonny, please don't kill me
but how do you feel about veepee and motorcoach and young ladies that didn't know what was going on
do you consider that kind of thing damaged goods
(i know you apologized) but i still wonder about your perception of him
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rascal
My problem is, that most genuine christians make mistakes....very few though habitually chose to indulge in cruel evil behavior that is so destructive to their fellow saints.
Drugging and rape, drunkeness and adultery, wholesale destruction of peoples lives....these are behaviors that most people are just not tempted to succumbe to
I think that there is a reason that these men and women behaved without a conscience. I think that the answere is in galations 5. I don`t think that a knowledge of the scriptures precludes one from being very very evil.
I think that *it`s the word the word and nothing but the word* is a distraction from our real spiritual obligations Jesus set forth.
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J0nny Ling0
Excathedra, you said;
First all, I want you to read what I just said to Rascal:Okay, so first of all, I know that these things happened. Whether they happened to "the t" as described by some, I don't know. But, any kind of extramarital sex with the MOGS (that term just cracks me up!), encouraged by them is in fact a sin and is as I said "heinous". Now when you ask;
I am not sure what you are asking. If you are asking if those who were the perpetrators were "damaged goods", I would definitely say yes. Now, according to one poster here, a woman, there was definitely a certain circle of women who were proud to have been a part of all of that, servicing the MOGs ya know. I would have to say that if they were involved and recruiting women into all of that that they were acting in a very damaged manner as well. Could they have become more damaged by it, even though they willingly participated? Yes. Could they be over it by now? Yes. But, maybe no. Only they know I spose.
And those who were innocent, are they damaged now? I dunno. They could be very damaged. They could have gotten over it by now and could be leading productive lives with all of that behind them. Just depends upon them, and or their time table I spose. I pray that all who got hurt in that manner can get to where they are not hurt by it any more. If it were me, I would be endeavoring to put it behind me as soon as possible, so that the "inflictors" would no longer be able to hurt me, the "inflictee". That way I wouldn't be "flicted" no more. But that's just me.
We become damaged either by our own wrong decisions, or because we trust someone who then damages us. VP damaged himself and then others because he succumbed to the temptation of sin for a very long season.
What do I think of VPW you ask? I am thankful to God that he taught the PFAL class, and that I got to sit through it. I am very not happy that he succumbed to the desires of the flesh and hurt so many people. But I won't throw out the good that I learned from him just because he lost it and became a really bad guy when the power went to his head.
What else did I like about PFAL? Well, how's this:
Knock knock.
Who's there?
To
To who?
Tohu Bohu!
My back hurts from all this typing. Gotta go. Y'all ahve a nice weekend!
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WordWolf
See, it's posts like this that illustrate that your position and mine are not really as far apart as
some might think.
1) vpw taught some good stuff.
2) vpw chose to hurt a lot of people.
3) Anything that was taught that was good, remains so in spite of the harm to people.
We both agree on those, and they seem to be the major points.
Where we differ is largely in what specifically was good that was taught,
(what was accurate, what was error, what was helpful, what was harmfut),
which are doctrinal issues,
and some wrangling over who got hurt and how much, which I don't see as
particularly useful to discuss unless the parties involved are discussing them.
The things I object to primarily aren't there- they are the
"vpw didnt really harm a lot of people, he was really a nice guy falsely accused" stuff,
the "twi never had a harmful side, and was always sweetness and light" stuff.
Me, I wasn't really exposed to the harmful side, and am well aware there were many
positive experiences while in twi- mine and other people's, but that doesn't erase the
existence of the bad experiences had by others, and attempts to belittle or erase THOSE
get my attention.
My posts are a whole lot nicer and more interesting when people don't try to
pull that one ad nauseum. I don't know if you've caught that.
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Deciderator
I certainly see what you mean.
I posted one thing positive I took from the class, something that has helped me and others and suddenly a group decides they know what I think, what idols I have, my opinions on other matters, how I related to certain people, etc.
Rather than take my words to indicate my opinion, and nothing else, some decide they can tell what I REALLY mean, then proceed to ascribe to me things I did not say, then debate the straw man they set up, and then pretend they were addressing me all along!
Somehow this is supposed to open my eyes.
I'm no spring chicken, and something I am learning more and more as I age is the importance of loving and forgiving people who have done me and others harm. I see more and more the forgiveness, grace and mercy of my heavenly Father in the Scriptures and in my own life as time goes by my capacity for having those qualities increases. I'm not saying I got-em mastered, but I'm working on it.
I don't know, maybe some on the board are unhappy that someone would take seriously,
"...and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
I have never heard anyone say there is too much kindness in the world
I have never heard anyone say there is too much forgiveness in the world
I have never heard anyone say there is too much love in this world.
Sorry that angers some people, but that's just how I roll.
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pond
Diciderator
if this is the first time you have come across the information on this site about the sex stuff i understand your hurt and judgement.
you say forgive but then write about how wrong the posts have been .
that doesnt make any sense does it?
unless you want to pick and chose who to believe and forgive and love which at the end of the day we all do.
really.
spring or winter people have strong feelings about stuff and this board debates alot of feelings and happenings.
if they do not agree with you that is ok and you do not agree with them that is ok.
it is a public forum.
one problem i think your experiencing is you think people are thinking something about what you wrote .. and they may not be! or they agree with another post and they may not be!
you leave alot open in the manner you write for people to guess, so they ask and then you accuse them of an idea that isnt even remotely close.
when you do not answer somtimes people assume.
i know you do , and i ask you to consider instead of assuming everyone gets what your saying or has a full understanding and please be mindful of what the posts are saying.
this isnt a group thing, every post is an individual post written by a different person with a different idea or question.
your not a victim of anything "group". some posters do agree with one another others do not.
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RainbowsGirl
Welcome Deciderato!
Both you and Jonny's opinions here along with all of us have some validity and I agree not everything was bad and a lot was good. None of us fully understands; nor is fully right. That is why opinion is used; to assess, to evaluate and to re-evaluate and to seek out the facts and the truth Most everyone here recognizes that! None of us are without flaws or sins, pains, losses or heartbreaks and heartaches. God did not abdicate His throne and choose anyone to sit in His seat; to judge, to condemn, to reward, to praise and on and on of all His unending responsibilities...............!
We have many many things in common. We all just need to heal and grow. Sometimes, by laying it out here and seeking opinions, we are helped to understand and to put the puzzles together; so that we can move on or help someone else...or the yet lurking see it. We need to find our bearings again and to learn the things we missed out on to be able to fill in the gaps.
For me the destination will always be after the truth about God. That is why I joined TWI... to find GOD and His ways and desires, His designs and His heart! I met a lot of the best people in all the earth along the way>>>My Brothers and Sisters>>>who I dearly love and am thankful for!
I do not understand all the many and vastly different intricate changes that go on in peoples lives and hearts...I think that God does and we can help where we can! More than anything concerning this, I am hopeful that we never quit till we find our own bearings and our own puzzle pieces that will help us to be whole.
It takes a while to adjust from being unduly influenced or controlled. I highly commend all who make it through the processes! Many don't, they stay in the same sick patterns and often learn to justify themselves or play the blame game. Ironically, not because change is too hard; but because they think it is! It takes diligent effort, self-discipline and self-control to develop your own opinion and to study and seek out knowledge or find the truth
Research is one of the best things I learned from TWI. They didn't mess up the true and accurate meanings of word definitions. Often they skewed, twisted or clouded them...intentionally or not. We still have all the words in all our languages to gather in truth! Some skewed, twisted clouded and entangled peoples lives and hearts. GOD made us strong enough to untangle all these trappings and He is our heavy lifter! He will judge and avenge us
Let's give each other a stronger hand, a lot more love, time and patience!
Love You All, RainbowsGirl
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T-Bone
Great posts everyone! One of the great PFAL "principles" that is debunked here at Grease Spot is "you can't go beyond what you're taught." Evident on just about every thread is that people don't think alike. Everyone has a unique perspective and experiences. Amidst all the clatter of folks talking about what's good about PFAL, what's bad about PFAL – there appears to be something that has happened…or rather continues to happen…and I think it's a NORMAL process…called growth. It's a natural byproduct of using our critical and creative thinking skills…We no longer allow ourselves to be fettered by the intellectual ball and chain of TWI.
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Deciderator
Why thank you, rainbow!
I can only say what works for me, and I have not gotten to where I think I forgive too much...
...maybe some others have, but not me.
And I'd like to love more and be more kind, even to those who do not deserve it..............
But that's just how I roll...
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Deciderator
We all have our foibles. One thing that gets under your skin may not bother me, and vice versa.
I don't like people deliberately lying. Especially when that is supposed to somehow bring me to some "truth".
Maybe you are the sort who doesn't mind meeting someone, and that person immediately deciding on their own that you held certain beliefs or had certain opinions, and then that person conversed with the false "you."
Of course those who do such things are to be forgiven. I try to be quck to forgive.
In this forum, these out-and-out favbrications have been made about me, and they are right there for all to see.
I am owed apologies from some people here.
I try to be quick to forgive and do not see a mumbled "sorry" as the end of it. No, the practice which i have sort of unconsciously adopted over the years is afterwards to try to get along with the person I have offended or who has offended me. I spend tome with them, look for areas of common ground.
I happen to be a Southern gentleman, one of impeccable bloodlines and I enjoy an opportunity to charm, especially a lady.
You would really enjoy being around me, pond.
that doesnt make any sense does it?
I don't think, I know, and you ate aware of this.The thing to do is to use the quote feature as I am here to directly address what the person is saying.
And pond, when you see someone taking my words and then saying something such as, "Well when I hear someone say ______[quoting me}_______ then I know it means ____[words and meanings not in my post]_______ then please feel free to speak up.
I can't get to every one.
And some are just plain dopey and a waste of time.
Pond, you can't deny that since I began posting here that some people have tried to mold me into fitting a strictly-defined stereotype and they resist any opportunity to see anything else.
They act like they're brainwashed or something.........
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