Just wondering...When I first took the class...to learn that I could get born again and have eternal life I was amazed!
To learn that Jesus Christ is not God...That made the perfect sense. To learn that when I die, I don't go to Heaven right away also made the perfect sense. These are really big things I never knew before the class and teach my children these truths.
I've heard there was alot of errors in PFAL, but these few things...do you still believe them to be true? Just wondering...
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we don't go to heaven at all, but rather inherit the Kingdom of God on earth, which is what Jesus taught. The whole idea that the kingdom on earth was only for Israel is a problem. It separates Jesus from his words, which we are supposed to believe.
But I am thankful to have learned that Jesus is the Son of God and not God, and that the dead are unconscious now. Both of these seem to be huge stumbling blocks for a lot of other Christians.
Before I took PFAL, I had attended various churches at different times in my life, so I was already born again. I had heard of people who didn't believe in the trinity, and that didn't think you went to heaven right after you died, but always scoffed at them until I took PFAL. And even though I am no longer a practicing Christian, and claim no set beliefs anymore, if I were, I think I would still hold on to those three biggies.
One concept I would have to say was completely new to me was that of Sonship Rights. Every church I had attended was more about what we humans were doing wrong and what we needed to fix in order to stay in God's good graces. It was a real relief to me to realize that God wouldn't have made us sons if He didn't have some hope for us; some greater purpose...
Come to think about it, that was one of the biggest draws to twi for me... they all seemed to positive, hopeful, cheerful, and joyful in their beliefs and practices. I had never been around Christians who were like that before. Geez, now I'm trying to remember just when that all changed? 1985-86... Vic's death, paranoia and jealousy, POP, exodus... all that. Before that was my age of innocence. ((oops, not trying to derail your topic!!!))
Just wondering...When I first took the class...to learn that I could get born again and have eternal life I was amazed!
To learn that Jesus Christ is not God...That made the perfect sense. To learn that when I die, I don't go to Heaven right away also made the perfect sense. These are really big things I never knew before the class and teach my children these truths.
I've heard there was alot of errors in PFAL, but these few things...do you still believe them to be true? Just wondering...
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God. Also, God's grace, mercy, and salvation were taught to us from a very early age. So that was not news to us when we heard it in TWI.
When we heard preaching in church about the trinity, we simply understood the trinity to be the three main subjects of our bible: God the Father, His Son Jesus, and Holy Spirit, which was interchangeably used for either God, or referred to characteristics of that interesting permanent change that the gift of salvation bestowed upon a person when they got born again.
I suppose we were lucky to have just enough "churching" to hear about salvation and confess Jesus as our Lord, understand he was the Son of God who died for our sins, and God raised him from the dead so that we could have eternal life, and not enough "churching" to indoctrinate us on the trinity.
Some time after being raised S.B., going through typical late 1960's teenage angst, drugs, and searching, and before getting into TWI, I was part of a charismatic movement. During that time, a woman taught me how to speak in tongues. I was growing, enjoying fruit of the spirit, a tight relationship with my Lord, getting answers to prayer, and I was reading my bible to learn about what exactly it all was. It seemed that finally, for once in my life, things were going well for me and I was on the right track. Then an introduction to TWI interrupted that journey.
As far as the dead going straight to heaven when they die, I am no longer sure, but I don't really care, because sometimes I think it's just not that important, at least to me, at this point in time, to worry about what my status is after I die. I believe the most important thing is to take care of your "status" BEFORE you die, because afterwards, you can't change anything.
If I am born again, which I believe I am, if God has it arranged so that I enter heaven immediately, that is fine with me. If my consciousness is in a state of suspended animation or unawareness until Christ comes back at a gathering together, that's fine, too.
Whatever happens after I am dead, I have no control over. It's the moment by moment choices I make to live for Him today that matter the most in the long run, at least to me.
But as a side note, I know plenty of great, and I do mean GREAT men and women of God (Rev. and Mrs. Billy Graham, for instance), who are convinced a believer goes straight to heaven at the moment of death. And NO leadership I EVER met in TWI can hold a candle to the genuine evangelistic and pastoral ministries these two had.
I personally know very few people to have walked with such love and compassion in their lives in TWI, and NO ONE in TWI to have manifested their personal ministries on such a dynamic world-wide level and monumental impact, touching as many lives in such a powerfully positive way.
I lived through over two decades of a cult which professed an elitist gnostic attitude, and tragically oppressed people and stole their lives with their "knowledge."
So I do not believe searching for "an accurate knowledge" is the most important thing a believer should be doing. I think it's better to check the moral basics Jesus taught.
God understands the confusion TWI interjected into each of our lives and the doubts that it caused, and he understands as humans we make mistakes and can at times be unintentionally and horribly deceived. So as far as I am concerned, He understands where I am and will meet me at my own level, and lead me where He wants me to go, as long as I do my best to keep my heart, my motivations, and my actions pure.
For me personally, after learning that we didn't go to heaven right after we died was a big blessing. As a teenager I was rebelous and had been suicidal and I always thought it was unfair for people to be up in heaven enjoying God while I'm down here suffering. So, it was a burden lifted when I was taught God is fair and just -- Where is it in Thessalonians -- the dead shall rise first and then we who remain will be with the Lord. I am so happy to know that. And, another thing, believing that the dead are alive now belittles Christ's resurection - which is the apex of Christianity. I thought that was kinda cool when I learned that from O'Hare/Lamsa debate. And it also breeds for spiritual issues, but they're not going anywhere for awhile.
As for the trinity -- I always thought that was wrong and actually went to the library once and read where the Catholics voted Jesus in as God. It's not biblical though -- and it was the verse in Romans that says we are "heirs of God, joint-heirs with Christ" where I finally really got it! Sunasis (where the two rivers meet). Christ is our big brother, God is our Dad.
Just wondering...When I first took the class...to learn that I could get born again and have eternal life I was amazed!
To learn that Jesus Christ is not God...That made the perfect sense. To learn that when I die, I don't go to Heaven right away also made the perfect sense. These are really big things I never knew before the class and teach my children these truths.
I've heard there was alot of errors in PFAL, but these few things...do you still believe them to be true? Just wondering...
Welcome doreen,
I still believe most of what was taught in PFAL , yet do acknowledge the actual errors.
But those three teachings you mentioned were some real goodies of PFAL. Am thankful for VP teaching them.
I still believe most of what was taught in PFAL , yet do acknowledge the actual errors.
But those three teachings you mentioned were some real goodies of PFAL. Am thankful for VP teaching them.
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong...
However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not God...like Catcup, I learned these things before I ever heard of twi.
As far as being "thankful" to Mr. Wierwille...I'm afraid that the severe damage that he inflicted on so many people in his life overshadows any thoughts of "thankfulness" on my part...
I got out in the early 80's. I didn't want to leave,at that time. I had no choice. (another thread perhaps)
I had no Idea what a blessing that would turn out to be.
The majority of my experience was wonderful. I was young. This was a real foundation ,for many areas of life, for me.
I learned the truth ( all the really bad stuff ) long after I got out.
This post is NOT about vpw , LCM, or any other single person.
It's about what I learned.
Am I grateful?
YOU BETCHA !
I can feel the hairs raising on the back of some of your necks. Just stop for a minute.
I am no cheeleader for what TWI turned into.
I'm not a defender,or a sympathizer.
I know well some of the stories.
But...
Even if some of these people later turned out to be the anti-christ. They changed my life, yes even ,saved my life.
HOW COULD I NOT BE THANKFUL FOR THAT?
If your grammar school teacher, the one who taught you to read, is convicted of really horrible crimes later in life. That's aweful. TREULY. The teacher is aweful. Worthy of severe punishment. BUT YOU STILL KNOW HOW TO READ. You obviously no longer love that teacher. He can rot in hell for all you care.
But
You're glad you can read, all about it, in the newspaper.
The fact remains. You were taught something VALUABLE.
thanks FOR THE LEARNING
Monkeys could have taught me the word, I wouldn't have cared.
THE TEACHER IS NOT MY POINT, IT'S THE SUBJECT MATTER I CHERISH
I remain thankful for many things I learned in PFAL and throuout my time in "the Ministry"
I had never before had, what I would call ,a real RELATIONSHIP with God.
Or the types of relationships I had with lots of magnificent folks.
The VAST majority of "rank and file " believers were like no other people on earth. THE most warm,loving,giving ,caring people I had ever met. A "ready friend" no matter where you roamed.
where to start???
speaking in tongues.
tools to read and study FOR MYSELF.
it's not by works.
I cannot get "unsaved" I am a SON.
work ethic. (serves me to this day)
even if you are the "low man on the totum pole" at your work BE THE BEST LOW MAN THEY EVER HAD !!
fearlessness. "I can do all things through Christ..."
kindness
compassion
NOBODY can come between you and GOD.
self esteem ( ok that one got wacked later) temporarily.
I am never,EVER alone.
CHRIST in YOU never heard that before.
The unbridled excitment of the approaching ROA.
The adventure of going WOW,corps,lead. I often felt like "Gulliver" with all my travels.
Really there's a "bigillion" things I'm thankful for and I credit them to (early) teaching etc. I got "you know where".
Comming here is hard for me, at times.
I mentioned once before that hearing all this, for me, is a lil like finding out you're adopted. You loved your adoptive parents. They raised you. You feel like they did the best they could for you. You thought they were your real parents. After you moved out you find out they were not at all your real parents. They were child molesters, swindlers,criminals or something like that. All 'round scary folks. But you loved them when you lived with them.
You knew no better.
Quite the sad, bewildering news. who?...what ?... huh?... You're kidding me right ?
Then there's... proof.
OUCH!
If nothing else...the bible was opened up for me in twi. Like never before.
The "regular" people I knew in my way days really were "the salt of the earth"
People who really wanted the best for themselves,their family,and well, everyone they met.
I do believe it was a very strong FOUNDATION upon which to build.
How the minstry I loved so much turned into such an evil,regimented, heartless cesspool is WAY(no pun) beyond me.
Thank God I was taught to "Take the best and leave the rest".
Sad that some of the "leaving" includes your memories of people you once thought to be among the most awesome on this earth.
I, too, give pfal the thumbs up. Like doreen said, it just made logical sense to me, all of it: JC is not God, ADAN, incorruptible seed, good stuff. Before pfal, my stereotype of Christianity was that if you step out of line just a little, you might go to hell. This was the example the other kids on my street showed me. Nothing about love or forgiveness, just walk right or go to hell. Pfal more than made that right for me.
I got out in the early 80's. I didn't want to leave,at that time. I had no choice. (another thread perhaps)
I had no Idea what a blessing that would turn out to be.
The majority of my experience was wonderful. I was young. This was a real foundation ,for many areas of life, for me.
I learned the truth ( all the really bad stuff ) long after I got out.
This post is NOT about vpw , LCM, or any other single person.
It's about what I learned.
Am I grateful?
YOU BETCHA !
I can feel the hairs raising on the back of some of your necks. Just stop for a minute.
I am no cheeleader for what TWI turned into.
I'm not a defender,or a sympathizer.
I know well some of the stories.
But...
Even if some of these people later turned out to be the anti-christ. They changed my life, yes even ,saved my life.
HOW COULD I NOT BE THANKFUL FOR THAT?
If your grammar school teacher, the one who taught you to read, is convicted of really horrible crimes later in life. That's aweful. TREULY. The teacher is aweful. Worthy of severe punishment. BUT YOU STILL KNOW HOW TO READ. You obviously no longer love that teacher. He can rot in hell for all you care.
But
You're glad you can read, all about it, in the newspaper.
The fact remains. You were taught something VALUABLE.
thanks FOR THE LEARNING
Monkeys could have taught me the word, I wouldn't have cared.
THE TEACHER IS NOT MY POINT, IT'S THE SUBJECT MATTER I CHERISH
I remain thankful for many things I learned in PFAL and throuout my time in "the Ministry"
I had never before had, what I would call ,a real RELATIONSHIP with God.
Or the types of relationships I had with lots of magnificent folks.
The VAST majority of "rank and file " believers were like no other people on earth. THE most warm,loving,giving ,caring people I had ever met. A "ready friend" no matter where you roamed.
where to start???
speaking in tongues.
tools to read and study FOR MYSELF.
it's not by works.
I cannot get "unsaved" I am a SON.
work ethic. (serves me to this day)
even if you are the "low man on the totum pole" at your work BE THE BEST LOW MAN THEY EVER HAD !!
fearlessness. "I can do all things through Christ..."
kindness
compassion
NOBODY can come between you and GOD.
self esteem ( ok that one got wacked later) temporarily.
I am never,EVER alone.
CHRIST in YOU never heard that before.
The unbridled excitment of the approaching ROA.
The adventure of going WOW,corps,lead. I often felt like "Gulliver" with all my travels.
Really there's a "bigillion" things I'm thankful for and I credit them to (early) teaching etc. I got "you know where".
Comming here is hard for me, at times.
I mentioned once before that hearing all this, for me, is a lil like finding out you're adopted. You loved your adoptive parents. They raised you. You feel like they did the best they could for you. You thought they were your real parents. After you moved out you find out they were not at all your real parents. They were child molesters, swindlers,criminals or something like that. All 'round scary folks. But you loved them when you lived with them.
You knew no better.
Quite the sad, bewildering news. who?...what ?... huh?... You're kidding me right ?
Then there's... proof.
OUCH!
If nothing else...the bible was opened up for me in twi. Like never before.
The "regular" people I knew in my way days really were "the salt of the earth"
People who really wanted the best for themselves,their family,and well, everyone they met.
I do believe it was a very strong FOUNDATION upon which to build.
How the minstry I loved so much turned into such an evil,regimented, heartless cesspool is WAY(no pun) beyond me.
Thank God I was taught to "Take the best and leave the rest".
Sad that some of the "leaving" includes your memories of people you once thought to be among the most awesome on this earth.
I mentioned once before that hearing all this, for me, is a lil like finding out you're adopted. You loved your adoptive parents. They raised you. You feel like they did the best they could for you. You thought they were your real parents. After you moved out you find out they were not at all your real parents. They were child molesters, swindlers,criminals or something like that. All 'round scary folks. But you loved them when you lived with the
Before pfal, my stereotype of Christianity was that if you step out of line just a little, you might go to hell. This was the example the other kids on my street showed me. Nothing about love or forgiveness, just walk right or go to hell. Pfal more than made that right for me.
Well........After corps "training" my stereotype of twi was that if you step out of line just a little, you will be labeled a cop-out and might go to hell.
The biggest thing I learned in PFAL was that Jesus Christs atonement covered ALL my sins not just the ones I could remember. that was a tremendous load lifted from my shoulders. {Still remember VPW making all those X's on the board}
And yes I still believe that and have had it affirmed many times since.
The more I took pfal, the more I learned. For instance ---
1.) I learned that you better NOT be late:
(helpful later on in life for job interviews).
2.) I learned the class instructor was ALWAYS right:
(helpful with biting my tongue when in disagreement with my boss at work).
3.) I learned to NEVER offer an unsolicited (or independant opinon):
(Refer back to number 2).
4.) I learned that positives are ALWAYS better than negatives:
(helpful knowledge when I FINALLY had a decent bank account).
5.) I learned that I was welcome as long as I didn't dissent with *party doctrine*:
(another helpful hint for the later *pathways of life* -- job or otherwise).
6.) I found out that my *worth* to them was directly proportionate to the folks I *recruited*:
(which helped me find a REAL job, and SHUN tele-marketing).
7.) I learned *money is everything*, since they wanted so much of my paycheck:
(after I started paying MYSELF first, and ignoring them -- I see they were right).
Sure I got a few things out of pfal (spiritually speaking), and though it took a few years for the above 7 to come into fruition -- those points above really are a lot of what I got out of pfal, twi, and the 10 or so years I was in. It was more like a lesson in life, rather than the biblical teaching aspect which they touted so much.
Twi spoke so loudly by their actions, it was hard to hear the words, eh?
:unsure: :unsure:
(P.S. --- Welcome to GreaseSpot Cafe!! In all seriousness -- glad to have you.)
A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL, Do you still believe them?
Just wondering...When I first took the class...to learn that I could get born again and have eternal life I was amazed!
To learn that Jesus Christ is not God...That made the perfect sense. To learn that when I die, I don't go to Heaven right away also made the perfect sense. These are really big things I never knew before the class and teach my children these truths.
I've heard there was alot of errors in PFAL, but these few things...do you still believe them to be true? Just wondering...
Yes I believe we can get born again and have eternal life but nothing like most do
I believe when we let Christ in our heart its just planting the seed of Christ and the birth does not come until we changed
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
the corruptible are the dead in Christ who waited for the first coming
the mortal are alive in Christ who wait till they can die in Christ to see Christ guide them into immortality
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
after this is past the last enemy death is destroied or won over
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
I believe this happen at the day of Pentcost when Christ came back to enter hearts of the living flesh the second coming
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
the second or day we become dead in Christ - then we become a new creature the birth has came or three days after breath life
but if you believe birth has done came if will not hurt
because when hooking a horse to a wagon you have to get the horse and the wagon
if you get the wrong one first big deal because you need both
so yes I believe we go right away to be a new creature and I see birth alot differ
As for God being Christ or Christ being God my beliefs have changed a lot but I still believe Jesus was the son of God who became the Christ but too long
as you see what I believe today is nothing like PFAL taught
you my asked about the verses VPW used to prove the dead are dead
just because something no longer stored in the body does not mean it has not moved to a new place
my computer has two hard drives I write in C drive to later move things to F drive
its that simple with things I believe God stored the inner memony of each person with in his self some how
quote: Well........After corps "training" my stereotype of twi was that if you step out of line just a little, you will be labeled a cop-out and might go to hell.
Impossible. Incorruptible seed means you don't go to hell...ever. If someone actually said that to you then they did, but that's not pfal.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Raf
You'll find a wide variety of answers to that question here, Doreen. Welcome to the GSCafe.
Me, I still believe those three things.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we don't go to heaven at all, but rather inherit the Kingdom of God on earth, which is what Jesus taught. The whole idea that the kingdom on earth was only for Israel is a problem. It separates Jesus from his words, which we are supposed to believe.
Check out my website if you'd like:
http://www.godskingdomfirst.net/
But I am thankful to have learned that Jesus is the Son of God and not God, and that the dead are unconscious now. Both of these seem to be huge stumbling blocks for a lot of other Christians.
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TheHighWay
Hi Doreen, and welcome!!
Before I took PFAL, I had attended various churches at different times in my life, so I was already born again. I had heard of people who didn't believe in the trinity, and that didn't think you went to heaven right after you died, but always scoffed at them until I took PFAL. And even though I am no longer a practicing Christian, and claim no set beliefs anymore, if I were, I think I would still hold on to those three biggies.
One concept I would have to say was completely new to me was that of Sonship Rights. Every church I had attended was more about what we humans were doing wrong and what we needed to fix in order to stay in God's good graces. It was a real relief to me to realize that God wouldn't have made us sons if He didn't have some hope for us; some greater purpose...
Come to think about it, that was one of the biggest draws to twi for me... they all seemed to positive, hopeful, cheerful, and joyful in their beliefs and practices. I had never been around Christians who were like that before. Geez, now I'm trying to remember just when that all changed? 1985-86... Vic's death, paranoia and jealousy, POP, exodus... all that. Before that was my age of innocence. ((oops, not trying to derail your topic!!!))
THW
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Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God. Also, God's grace, mercy, and salvation were taught to us from a very early age. So that was not news to us when we heard it in TWI.
When we heard preaching in church about the trinity, we simply understood the trinity to be the three main subjects of our bible: God the Father, His Son Jesus, and Holy Spirit, which was interchangeably used for either God, or referred to characteristics of that interesting permanent change that the gift of salvation bestowed upon a person when they got born again.
I suppose we were lucky to have just enough "churching" to hear about salvation and confess Jesus as our Lord, understand he was the Son of God who died for our sins, and God raised him from the dead so that we could have eternal life, and not enough "churching" to indoctrinate us on the trinity.
Some time after being raised S.B., going through typical late 1960's teenage angst, drugs, and searching, and before getting into TWI, I was part of a charismatic movement. During that time, a woman taught me how to speak in tongues. I was growing, enjoying fruit of the spirit, a tight relationship with my Lord, getting answers to prayer, and I was reading my bible to learn about what exactly it all was. It seemed that finally, for once in my life, things were going well for me and I was on the right track. Then an introduction to TWI interrupted that journey.
As far as the dead going straight to heaven when they die, I am no longer sure, but I don't really care, because sometimes I think it's just not that important, at least to me, at this point in time, to worry about what my status is after I die. I believe the most important thing is to take care of your "status" BEFORE you die, because afterwards, you can't change anything.
If I am born again, which I believe I am, if God has it arranged so that I enter heaven immediately, that is fine with me. If my consciousness is in a state of suspended animation or unawareness until Christ comes back at a gathering together, that's fine, too.
Whatever happens after I am dead, I have no control over. It's the moment by moment choices I make to live for Him today that matter the most in the long run, at least to me.
But as a side note, I know plenty of great, and I do mean GREAT men and women of God (Rev. and Mrs. Billy Graham, for instance), who are convinced a believer goes straight to heaven at the moment of death. And NO leadership I EVER met in TWI can hold a candle to the genuine evangelistic and pastoral ministries these two had.
I personally know very few people to have walked with such love and compassion in their lives in TWI, and NO ONE in TWI to have manifested their personal ministries on such a dynamic world-wide level and monumental impact, touching as many lives in such a powerfully positive way.
I lived through over two decades of a cult which professed an elitist gnostic attitude, and tragically oppressed people and stole their lives with their "knowledge."
So I do not believe searching for "an accurate knowledge" is the most important thing a believer should be doing. I think it's better to check the moral basics Jesus taught.
God understands the confusion TWI interjected into each of our lives and the doubts that it caused, and he understands as humans we make mistakes and can at times be unintentionally and horribly deceived. So as far as I am concerned, He understands where I am and will meet me at my own level, and lead me where He wants me to go, as long as I do my best to keep my heart, my motivations, and my actions pure.
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likeaneagle
right on catchup!!
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Hooner
For me personally, after learning that we didn't go to heaven right after we died was a big blessing. As a teenager I was rebelous and had been suicidal and I always thought it was unfair for people to be up in heaven enjoying God while I'm down here suffering. So, it was a burden lifted when I was taught God is fair and just -- Where is it in Thessalonians -- the dead shall rise first and then we who remain will be with the Lord. I am so happy to know that. And, another thing, believing that the dead are alive now belittles Christ's resurection - which is the apex of Christianity. I thought that was kinda cool when I learned that from O'Hare/Lamsa debate. And it also breeds for spiritual issues, but they're not going anywhere for awhile.
As for the trinity -- I always thought that was wrong and actually went to the library once and read where the Catholics voted Jesus in as God. It's not biblical though -- and it was the verse in Romans that says we are "heirs of God, joint-heirs with Christ" where I finally really got it! Sunasis (where the two rivers meet). Christ is our big brother, God is our Dad.
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George Aar
"do you still believe them to be true?"
Uh, nope.
Just your basic garden-variety superstitions to me anymore. Sorry...
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oldiesman
Welcome doreen,
I still believe most of what was taught in PFAL , yet do acknowledge the actual errors.
But those three teachings you mentioned were some real goodies of PFAL. Am thankful for VP teaching them.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong...
However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not God...like Catcup, I learned these things before I ever heard of twi.
As far as being "thankful" to Mr. Wierwille...I'm afraid that the severe damage that he inflicted on so many people in his life overshadows any thoughts of "thankfulness" on my part...
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Bumpy
A few BIG things...
- to know that you knew...that I can’t remember now...
- sit next to the “hottest” looking chicks (“don’t use that word around me”!)
- you can’t go beyond what you’ve been taught...one session at a time...
- chat up the one sitting closest...after class!
- 4 crucified in the mist
- get her on the back of the Triumph after class
Stay clear of WC gestapo who were already serving Dr. Viper
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exwaycorps
WARNING: THIS IS A POSITIVE POST
I got out in the early 80's. I didn't want to leave,at that time. I had no choice. (another thread perhaps)
I had no Idea what a blessing that would turn out to be.
The majority of my experience was wonderful. I was young. This was a real foundation ,for many areas of life, for me.
I learned the truth ( all the really bad stuff ) long after I got out.
This post is NOT about vpw , LCM, or any other single person.
It's about what I learned.
Am I grateful?
YOU BETCHA !
I can feel the hairs raising on the back of some of your necks. Just stop for a minute.
I am no cheeleader for what TWI turned into.
I'm not a defender,or a sympathizer.
I know well some of the stories.
But...
Even if some of these people later turned out to be the anti-christ. They changed my life, yes even ,saved my life.
HOW COULD I NOT BE THANKFUL FOR THAT?
If your grammar school teacher, the one who taught you to read, is convicted of really horrible crimes later in life. That's aweful. TREULY. The teacher is aweful. Worthy of severe punishment. BUT YOU STILL KNOW HOW TO READ. You obviously no longer love that teacher. He can rot in hell for all you care.
But
You're glad you can read, all about it, in the newspaper.
The fact remains. You were taught something VALUABLE.
thanks FOR THE LEARNING
Monkeys could have taught me the word, I wouldn't have cared.
THE TEACHER IS NOT MY POINT, IT'S THE SUBJECT MATTER I CHERISH
I remain thankful for many things I learned in PFAL and throuout my time in "the Ministry"
I had never before had, what I would call ,a real RELATIONSHIP with God.
Or the types of relationships I had with lots of magnificent folks.
The VAST majority of "rank and file " believers were like no other people on earth. THE most warm,loving,giving ,caring people I had ever met. A "ready friend" no matter where you roamed.
where to start???
speaking in tongues.
tools to read and study FOR MYSELF.
it's not by works.
I cannot get "unsaved" I am a SON.
work ethic. (serves me to this day)
even if you are the "low man on the totum pole" at your work BE THE BEST LOW MAN THEY EVER HAD !!
fearlessness. "I can do all things through Christ..."
kindness
compassion
NOBODY can come between you and GOD.
self esteem ( ok that one got wacked later) temporarily.
I am never,EVER alone.
CHRIST in YOU never heard that before.
The unbridled excitment of the approaching ROA.
The adventure of going WOW,corps,lead. I often felt like "Gulliver" with all my travels.
Really there's a "bigillion" things I'm thankful for and I credit them to (early) teaching etc. I got "you know where".
Comming here is hard for me, at times.
I mentioned once before that hearing all this, for me, is a lil like finding out you're adopted. You loved your adoptive parents. They raised you. You feel like they did the best they could for you. You thought they were your real parents. After you moved out you find out they were not at all your real parents. They were child molesters, swindlers,criminals or something like that. All 'round scary folks. But you loved them when you lived with them.
You knew no better.
Quite the sad, bewildering news. who?...what ?... huh?... You're kidding me right ?
Then there's... proof.
OUCH!
If nothing else...the bible was opened up for me in twi. Like never before.
The "regular" people I knew in my way days really were "the salt of the earth"
People who really wanted the best for themselves,their family,and well, everyone they met.
I do believe it was a very strong FOUNDATION upon which to build.
How the minstry I loved so much turned into such an evil,regimented, heartless cesspool is WAY(no pun) beyond me.
Thank God I was taught to "Take the best and leave the rest".
Sad that some of the "leaving" includes your memories of people you once thought to be among the most awesome on this earth.
I know you guys can relate.
we live, we learn,we certainly never give up.
Just some thoughts
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johniam
I, too, give pfal the thumbs up. Like doreen said, it just made logical sense to me, all of it: JC is not God, ADAN, incorruptible seed, good stuff. Before pfal, my stereotype of Christianity was that if you step out of line just a little, you might go to hell. This was the example the other kids on my street showed me. Nothing about love or forgiveness, just walk right or go to hell. Pfal more than made that right for me.
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Doreen
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Doreen
Exwaycorps, what you wrote is exactly how I feel! Thank you for your thoughts and thank you everyone else also.
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likeaneagle
Exway..I totaly aggree..and understand..
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skyrider
Well........After corps "training" my stereotype of twi was that if you step out of line just a little, you will be labeled a cop-out and might go to hell.
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templelady
The biggest thing I learned in PFAL was that Jesus Christs atonement covered ALL my sins not just the ones I could remember. that was a tremendous load lifted from my shoulders. {Still remember VPW making all those X's on the board}
And yes I still believe that and have had it affirmed many times since.
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exwaycorps
Thanks Doreen. I'm new here myself. Welcome.
This site can be quite interesting.
Sometimes it's sorta like a roller coaster ride.
It's fun but now and again your stomach wants to fly out of your nose.
Thanks also LIKEANEAGLE.
Glad I'm not alone in some of my sentiments.
I appreciate your postings.
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Suda
ExWayCorps,
My sentiments exactly. You expressed them much better than I have been able to do.
Suda
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Suda
I think I welcomed ExWayCorp in another thread. If not,
WELCOME DOREEN AND EXWAYCORP!
Coffee and croissants on me. Enjoy. Visit us anytime. You are always welcome at GSC!
Suda
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exwaycorps
OMG SUDA!!
you made me hungry!
hee hee
THANKS
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dmiller
The more I took pfal, the more I learned. For instance ---
1.) I learned that you better NOT be late:
(helpful later on in life for job interviews).
2.) I learned the class instructor was ALWAYS right:
(helpful with biting my tongue when in disagreement with my boss at work).
3.) I learned to NEVER offer an unsolicited (or independant opinon):
(Refer back to number 2).
4.) I learned that positives are ALWAYS better than negatives:
(helpful knowledge when I FINALLY had a decent bank account).
5.) I learned that I was welcome as long as I didn't dissent with *party doctrine*:
(another helpful hint for the later *pathways of life* -- job or otherwise).
6.) I found out that my *worth* to them was directly proportionate to the folks I *recruited*:
(which helped me find a REAL job, and SHUN tele-marketing).
7.) I learned *money is everything*, since they wanted so much of my paycheck:
(after I started paying MYSELF first, and ignoring them -- I see they were right).
Sure I got a few things out of pfal (spiritually speaking), and though it took a few years for the above 7 to come into fruition -- those points above really are a lot of what I got out of pfal, twi, and the 10 or so years I was in. It was more like a lesson in life, rather than the biblical teaching aspect which they touted so much.
Twi spoke so loudly by their actions, it was hard to hear the words, eh?
:unsure:
:unsure:
(P.S. --- Welcome to GreaseSpot Cafe!! In all seriousness -- glad to have you.)
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year2027
God first
Beloved doreen
God loves you my dear friend
you asked
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A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL, Do you still believe them?
Just wondering...When I first took the class...to learn that I could get born again and have eternal life I was amazed!
To learn that Jesus Christ is not God...That made the perfect sense. To learn that when I die, I don't go to Heaven right away also made the perfect sense. These are really big things I never knew before the class and teach my children these truths.
I've heard there was alot of errors in PFAL, but these few things...do you still believe them to be true? Just wondering...
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first wondering is a good thing my friend
Yes I believe we can get born again and have eternal life but nothing like most do
I believe when we let Christ in our heart its just planting the seed of Christ and the birth does not come until we changed
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
the corruptible are the dead in Christ who waited for the first coming
the mortal are alive in Christ who wait till they can die in Christ to see Christ guide them into immortality
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
after this is past the last enemy death is destroied or won over
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
I believe this happen at the day of Pentcost when Christ came back to enter hearts of the living flesh the second coming
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
the second or day we become dead in Christ - then we become a new creature the birth has came or three days after breath life
but if you believe birth has done came if will not hurt
because when hooking a horse to a wagon you have to get the horse and the wagon
if you get the wrong one first big deal because you need both
so yes I believe we go right away to be a new creature and I see birth alot differ
As for God being Christ or Christ being God my beliefs have changed a lot but I still believe Jesus was the son of God who became the Christ but too long
as you see what I believe today is nothing like PFAL taught
you my asked about the verses VPW used to prove the dead are dead
just because something no longer stored in the body does not mean it has not moved to a new place
my computer has two hard drives I write in C drive to later move things to F drive
its that simple with things I believe God stored the inner memony of each person with in his self some how
that a great subject
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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johniam
quote: Well........After corps "training" my stereotype of twi was that if you step out of line just a little, you will be labeled a cop-out and might go to hell.
Impossible. Incorruptible seed means you don't go to hell...ever. If someone actually said that to you then they did, but that's not pfal.
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