I have come to have a better (and by no means anywhere near complete) understanding and appreciation for what this means by learning what the OT laws meant. I haven't learned them all, by any stretch, but I am learning.
That isn't to say we have to live by OT laws, but they are there for our learning, yes? They are there for a purpose still, then, yes?
I do know this, it does go beyond simply treating someone as you would like to be treated, because how you like to be treated is not necessarily what your neighbor wants.
Please feel free to elaborate about what you learned about OT laws, Abigail. I think if I’d spent more time in the OT, I wouldn’t have the questions I have now…all I know about OT laws is the majority define sin and right from wrong. That’s it. That’s all I know.
I don’t agree with vp on dispensationlism or that the OT is just for our learning. A big part of it can be taken quite literally and should be.
I will try as I have time and things occur to me. I only hope that I can communicate it well.
One of the things that comes to mind off the top of my head is the law about seething a calf in its mother's milk. Now there is a law I always found confusing and the practice of it, even today, requires more than you would imagine.
But the point of the law, as it was taught to me, stems from respect for all things living. To acknowledge and respect the meat we eat, to recoginize it was a living thing that gave its life to us, so that we might have life. Native Americans have this concept as well.
If one practices this law, as with all the laws of keeping kosher, it requires you to put much thought into your food preparation. The result of that thought is a respect and thankfulness, far far beyond the simple repetitive "blessing over a meal." There is a real sense of connectedness to the earth, the animals and vegetation that are here to sustain us, and to God for designing and creating the whole thing. When you have this sense of connectedness, as you develop it and build upon it, you have more care for (emotionally, spiritually, and via physical action) the things around you, out of genuine love and respect instead of out of legalism, coersion, obligation, etc.
If one practices this law, as with all the laws of keeping kosher, it requires you to put much thought into your food preparation. The result of that thought is a respect and thankfulness, far far beyond the simple repetitive "blessing over a meal." There is a real sense of connectedness to the earth, the animals and vegetation that are here to sustain us, and to God for designing and creating the whole thing. When you have this sense of connectedness, as you develop it and build upon it, you have more care for (emotionally, spiritually, and via physical action) the things around you, out of genuine love and respect instead of out of legalism, coersion, obligation, etc.
I'm so glad that you brought this up Abi. The whole idea of "kosher" has always boggled my brain. Now it makes some sense. Thanks.
Trying to practice it is boggling. I can't anyway - there are no Kosher stores around here. But, I like understanding the meaning behind it and incorporating things here and there when I can, as a reminder to myself.
Trying to practice it is boggling. I can't anyway - there are no Kosher stores around here. But, I like understanding the meaning behind it and incorporating things here and there when I can, as a reminder to myself.
I think one would have to live like the Amish to practice it correctly and consistantly. But the heart behind it is wonderful! I always had the impression that it was cruel to the animals, but now I understand the love begind it. The animal is sacrificing its life for you. It is only right that we should truly honor that sacrifice. Amazing...time to rething a few things again. Why does this always happen when I talk to you? Hmmmm??
I think one would have to live like the Amish to practice it correctly and consistantly. But the heart behind it is wonderful! I always had the impression that it was cruel to the animals, but now I understand the love begind it. The animal is sacrificing its life for you. It is only right that we should truly honor that sacrifice. Amazing...time to rething a few things again. Why does this always happen when I talk to you? Hmmmm??
Awe, thanks.
Not only is it NOT cruel to the animals, but killing an animal according to the laws is MUCH more humane that what occurs in the slaughterhouses today.
...But the point of the law, as it was taught to me, stems from respect for all things living. To acknowledge and respect the meat we eat, to recoginize it was a living thing that gave its life to us, so that we might have life. Native Americans have this concept as well.
If one practices this law, as with all the laws of keeping kosher, it requires you to put much thought into your food preparation. The result of that thought is a respect and thankfulness, far far beyond the simple repetitive "blessing over a meal." There is a real sense of connectedness to the earth, the animals and vegetation that are here to sustain us, and to God for designing and creating the whole thing. When you have this sense of connectedness, as you develop it and build upon it, you have more care for (emotionally, spiritually, and via physical action) the things around you, out of genuine love and respect instead of out of legalism, coersion, obligation, etc.
Great post, Abigail! I believe we were created to be social beings. I love how you spoke of the law teaching people love, thankfulness and respect towards everything – these things are essential to the connectedness of social beings. I know you spoke a lot about the things around us - but I see that connectedness as also coming into play in our relationship with God and people.
I think it's a natural function for us as social creatures to love God and neighbor. The challenge is to love with ALL our heart, soul, mind, and strength…Like you said it's not something coerced out of someone…certainly not inspired by legalism or obligation.
Just rambling here: Maybe an aspect of the law was to get us from being so self-centered. Maybe that hampers us from being able to love to max. The law identified boundaries and deemed them worthy of respect – "this belongs to someone else – so don't steal, covet, etc."
What connects us as social creatures is bearing the image and likeness of God – that's why we can relate to each other - - and to God! Yet we are all individuals too, having personhood – even God! Boundaries are a part of personhood. I think about how the law said to have no other gods between us and God. There's connectedness and boundaries wrapped up in that: To have a deep, loving fellowship with God – and not allowing anything else to trespass into this sacred relationship.
Exactly, T-bone. If we cannot sense/recognize our connectedness to the beautiful world God created, how will we ever truly recognize our connectedness and completeness with God? Likewise, if we reject what God has created, do we not reject some portion of God as well?
And boundaries, yes, definitely healthy boundaries given by God so that we truly can love our neighbors.
Exactly, T-bone. If we cannot sense/recognize our connectedness to the beautiful world God created, how will we ever truly recognize our connectedness and completeness with God? Likewise, if we reject what God has created, do we not reject some portion of God as well?
And boundaries, yes, definitely healthy boundaries given by God so that we truly can love our neighbors.
Funny how Romans 1 talks about how believers walked away from God and their first "sin" was that they had stopped thanking Him for all that He has done. They had stopped being able to "see" what He had done and then it is pointed out that all they had to do was look around as God is seen in everything that He has created.
I have often thought that the OT laws were more guilds than laws intended to dole out punishment. God would rather we learn how to be courteous and social and loving towards one another and towards Him of course.
Another Spot – another great post and thread! Sorry about the long post here – but I'm afraid I've gone rambling... Loving God and neighbor has come up on quite a few threads lately but I don't seem to tire of it…it's an inexhaustible subject…This time around I've been thinking about how love looks from both sides of a relationship – that's where I was coming from in my previous post. I see true love as a two way street – a give and take kind of thing happening.
What does it mean to love God, love each other? To me, it means both parties open themselves up to each other. Each allows the other to have some kind of effect on them. Maybe this is off the wall – but I figure God made us social/emotional beings – like Himself. In a love relationship – you open yourself up to the other person. We reveal something of ourselves, we take in a revelation of the other person...we place ourselves in a vulnerable position. We take risks and open ourselves up a little more, a little more, a little more. We trust, we forgive, and we extend ourselves a little more. Sometimes we're even provoked to jealousy when something else competes with that relationship.
We accept the fact that we are affected by our relationship with God. Is God affected by our relationship with Him? I think so. We read in the Bible of God experiencing a wide variety of emotions in response to what people did – or didn't do…For that reason – it seems like love, in a way, grants a certain amount of power to both sides of the relationship. Not a power to rule over the other – like a dictatorship. More like both co-reign in this little kingdom of two hearts. God is not invasive. He respects us.
When there's love – there's mutual respect. We respect the other person's boundaries. We cherish the connectedness while at the same time respect their otherness. I've learned a lot of things about love from our marriage. Tonto and I have been married 31 years. I can't remember what it's like to be single. And I don't want to be single again. We enjoy each other's company…There's a lot to that verse in Genesis of two becoming one flesh. I went from being self-centered to us-centered. People that have been together for so long they sometimes know what the other is thinking or predict how they'll react to something. That's love, that's connectedness.
I sort of understand my relationship with God that way. I went from being self-centered to us-centered [me and God]. Ha! You thought I was going to say God-centered. But in my love for God, I focus not just on Him – but also myself in relation to Him. [Have you ever tried to think about yourself from the perspective of someone who loves you?] Obviously, God is the bigger lover here – but sometimes we should consider what it means for US – though a mixed bag of the image of God/imperfection/sinfulness/mortal – to be the object of God's love! He loves us – warts and all! For me it doesn't degenerate into legalism, trying to perfect myself to please Him…It's more like accepting myself for who I am. And that makes me think of the second great commandment – love my neighbor as myself... and so maybe I need to be more accepting of my neighbor…Well, don't know if any of this made sense – but there sure is a lot to think about on this subject, that's for sure.
If one practices this law, as with all the laws of keeping kosher, it requires you to put much thought into your food preparation. The result of that thought is a respect and thankfulness, far far beyond the simple repetitive "blessing over a meal." There is a real sense of connectedness to the earth, the animals and vegetation that are here to sustain us, and to God for designing and creating the whole thing. When you have this sense of connectedness, as you develop it and build upon it, you have more care for (emotionally, spiritually, and via physical action) the things around you, out of genuine love and respect instead of out of legalism, coersion, obligation, etc.—Abigail
That’s interesting. It reminds me of:
Gen. 9:3-6 (NIV) Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.
I remember reading somewhere that the blood was to be buried. At the time I thought that was puzzling, however I wonder if the point was the action caused a person to be more mindful and respectful…both of the life and the blood. Blood was set aside for atonement and other purposes. I am also intrigued with the phrase, “image of God.” I’ve seen this phrase elsewhere in connection with life and blood. It would be just as easy to say respect the life because God made it. Instead, it’s respect the life because man is made in the image of God. That communicates just how disrespectful it really is to disrespect life.
The other thought I had was that Jesus certainly understood love God, love your neighbor. What He had to go on was the OT…
Good posts all, and lots to ponder. This is just the first thing that sprang to mind.
I will try as I have time and things occur to me. I only hope that I can communicate it well.
One of the things that comes to mind off the top of my head is the law about seething a calf in its mother's milk. Now there is a law I always found confusing and the practice of it, even today, requires more than you would imagine.
But the point of the law, as it was taught to me, stems from respect for all things living. To acknowledge and respect the meat we eat, to recoginize it was a living thing that gave its life to us, so that we might have life. Native Americans have this concept as well.
If one practices this law, as with all the laws of keeping kosher, it requires you to put much thought into your food preparation. The result of that thought is a respect and thankfulness, far far beyond the simple repetitive "blessing over a meal." There is a real sense of connectedness to the earth, the animals and vegetation that are here to sustain us, and to God for designing and creating the whole thing. When you have this sense of connectedness, as you develop it and build upon it, you have more care for (emotionally, spiritually, and via physical action) the things around you, out of genuine love and respect instead of out of legalism, coersion, obligation, etc.
Wow, Abigail. I had no idea that is what kosher was all about-- I am very ignorant of Judaism. One of the things that drew me to my current beliefs was the connectedness, respect for animals, nature etc that is found in earth based beliefs.
Unless I missed one, the first place I could find that states God loves is here:
Deu 4:37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;
The second one elaborates on this further:
Deu 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:
Deu 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he [is] God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
The NIV translates verse nine as a “covenant of love.” This covenant of course was initially with Abraham, who was called a “friend of God” because he believed God. The verses go on to say that if they loved Him and kept His commandments they would enjoy freedom from disease, deliverance, they and their animals would be fruitful and multiply, their crops would be blessed, and other things. God loved them. He wanted them to love Him back and obey for their own sakes. They were in a covenant relationship. God was faithful to keep His covenant with Abraham, He is asking for Israel’s faithfulness.
Verse nine almost sounds conditional, but I’m not sure about that one way or another without doing much more reading. In any case, what I’m trying to do right now is locate every verse that says anything about God is love or that He loves.
One thing I think we can safely conclude is that God loved Abraham and the outstanding thing about him is that he believed God. Israel then was benefiting and receiving God’s love as a result. According to Romans, this faith/believing was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.
So you’re right, T-bone. It is a relationship.
This is something else I thought was pretty great:
Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.
P. S. If it’s true that Abraham was born in 2166 B.C., and if the average age for the firstborn of each generation was 21.66 years, then a thousand generations would take us to the birth of Christ. Approximately.
What is it to love God? and to love your neighbor as yourself?
Well isn't God supposed to be love?
So you could then say we are to God God
or
we are to love Love.
The later makes more sense.
Love to love?
Love above all else maybe?
Love first?
What would those things mean?
The simplest way I can think of it is that you allow, let, make love your nature. It is not something you HAVE to do or something you have to even think about doing it is so natural, so apart of you, that it becomes automatic.
You become love or like love or like God.
Then love your neighbor becomes more simple too. You just love.
The specifics of that become a little more hazzy. :) At least to me. Although, I would suspect it would become clearer the more you allow yourself to be more loving, and love love.
I don’t pretend to understand the exchange between God and Satan, however I have great disagreement with vp on the meaning of the book as a whole. In the initial exchange, Satan questions whether Job would still trust God if he was afflicted. God then gives permission. The three friends are of the belief Job must have sinned, that is Job’s life was a direct reflection of his own obedience or lack of it, therefore determining God’s actions. In chapter 40, God responds not with answers but questions.
Job 40:1-14
Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Then Job answered the Lord, and said,
Behold, I am vile: what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath : and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
For several chapters God makes the point that Job is not capable of understanding how to run the universe or His righteous judgments. The idea that Job had fear that allowed all this to happen is just a different twist on the same idea Job’s friends had.
What Job finally gets in the above verses is God does what He does, as opposed to being an instrument of the will of man, and when He does things to bless and deliver it is because of His own righteousness and not the relative righteousness of man.
Going back to Deuteronomy, God’s actions to deliver the children of Israel from slavery had nothing to do with their own actions. They had no idea who God was.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
God’s greatest acts of love and deliverance were not earned in any sense.
I think John's statement "God is love" could have the emphasis placed on any of the three words, but my own feeling is that it should be on "God." If that is true, when we love, we are joined with God. John offers an explicit definition of love in 1John: Jesus gave his life for us. "herein is love..."
This is contrasted to Cain, who took his brother's life. His conclusion is that we also ought to lay down our lives for the brothers and sisters.
There are many ways to give of your life, of your possessions, your time. Whenever you authentically do that, it seems to me, you are joined with God, a co-conspirator, as it were. Whoever loves is born of God and knows God. As someone wrote above... the subject is inexaustible.
All the law is summed up in this thread's title, and as Abi pointed out, God's sensitivities extend even to those of the bovine persuasion (and beyond). All is refected in the law, and I think it's useful to take a look at it, as Abigail is doing.
There are many ways to give of your life, of your possessions, your time. Whenever you authentically do that, it seems to me, you are joined with God, a co-conspirator, as it were. Whoever loves is born of God and knows God. As someone wrote above... the subject is inexaustible.
Nice to meet you Dan! Hope you will stick around and enjoy some coffee and pie with us basement dwellers. :)
Not only are you joined with God (as if that isn't incredible enough) but in at least some branches of Judaism, they would say you are taking part in the rebuilding of paradise.
Thanks, Abigail. I've heard of the Jewish practice of joining with God in the rebuilding of paradise. Can't think of the term for it now. I have a wonderful friend who is a Christian from a strong Jewish background. Her husband is still a Jew, and her son, but her daughter is Christian. I'd ask her, but she's in Cape Cod for two weeks. (And she will be enjoying the lobster! ) The term is not tzedakah, which is giving to the poor...
Considering 1John more deeply in recent years, it's become "easier" to love my neighbor. I sometimes simply stop myself and ask myself the question, "Am I giving or imparting life, or taking from the person?" Forbearance is a form of love. As parents, we do it all the time with our children. If I reveal someone's secrets or past sins to someone else, am I planting something in my listener's mind that they will have to deal with every time they see that person? A truly Christian community would be a broad family of life-givers, where the old folks impart life to the young ones, and vice versa. Then we really are God's children, according to the writer of 1John. If we hate one another, we are joined with the Devil and his work; if we love, we are God's children. And that's all the proof we really need, according to 1John.
And this says much the same thing: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
I think John's statement "God is love" could have the emphasis placed on any of the three words, but my own feeling is that it should be on "God." If that is true, when we love, we are joined with God. John offers an explicit definition of love in 1John: Jesus gave his life for us. "herein is love..."
This is contrasted to Cain, who took his brother's life. His conclusion is that we also ought to lay down our lives for the brothers and sisters...
Welcome to Grease Spot, Another Dan – good post! You've got me thinking about the fall of man in relation to loving God and loving neighbor as myself. In the first sin by the human race – I see a blatant disregard of these love principles. Adam and Eve's doubt and disobedience of God struck a devastating blow to their loving relationship with God. And ignoring God's warning of the harm they would bring upon themselves ["You shall surely die"] they showed little regard for their own well being as well as that of their companion.
Welcome to Grease Spot, Another Dan – good post! You've got me thinking about the fall of man in relation to loving God and loving neighbor as myself. In the first sin by the human race – I see a blatant disregard of these love principles. Adam and Eve's doubt and disobedience of God struck a devastating blow to their loving relationship with God. And ignoring God's warning of the harm they would bring upon themselves ["You shall surely die"] they showed little regard for their own well being as well as that of their companion.
T-bone: Insightful. And with practical, present-day meaning. Do I doubt and disobey God? Is my relationship with my Creator hampered by my self-will? Do I show due regard for the consequences of my actions?
Recommended Posts
Abigail
I have come to have a better (and by no means anywhere near complete) understanding and appreciation for what this means by learning what the OT laws meant. I haven't learned them all, by any stretch, but I am learning.
That isn't to say we have to live by OT laws, but they are there for our learning, yes? They are there for a purpose still, then, yes?
I do know this, it does go beyond simply treating someone as you would like to be treated, because how you like to be treated is not necessarily what your neighbor wants.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
Please feel free to elaborate about what you learned about OT laws, Abigail. I think if I’d spent more time in the OT, I wouldn’t have the questions I have now…all I know about OT laws is the majority define sin and right from wrong. That’s it. That’s all I know.
I don’t agree with vp on dispensationlism or that the OT is just for our learning. A big part of it can be taken quite literally and should be.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
I will try as I have time and things occur to me. I only hope that I can communicate it well.
One of the things that comes to mind off the top of my head is the law about seething a calf in its mother's milk. Now there is a law I always found confusing and the practice of it, even today, requires more than you would imagine.
But the point of the law, as it was taught to me, stems from respect for all things living. To acknowledge and respect the meat we eat, to recoginize it was a living thing that gave its life to us, so that we might have life. Native Americans have this concept as well.
If one practices this law, as with all the laws of keeping kosher, it requires you to put much thought into your food preparation. The result of that thought is a respect and thankfulness, far far beyond the simple repetitive "blessing over a meal." There is a real sense of connectedness to the earth, the animals and vegetation that are here to sustain us, and to God for designing and creating the whole thing. When you have this sense of connectedness, as you develop it and build upon it, you have more care for (emotionally, spiritually, and via physical action) the things around you, out of genuine love and respect instead of out of legalism, coersion, obligation, etc.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eyesopen
I'm so glad that you brought this up Abi. The whole idea of "kosher" has always boggled my brain. Now it makes some sense. Thanks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Trying to practice it is boggling. I can't anyway - there are no Kosher stores around here. But, I like understanding the meaning behind it and incorporating things here and there when I can, as a reminder to myself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eyesopen
I think one would have to live like the Amish to practice it correctly and consistantly. But the heart behind it is wonderful! I always had the impression that it was cruel to the animals, but now I understand the love begind it. The animal is sacrificing its life for you. It is only right that we should truly honor that sacrifice. Amazing...time to rething a few things again. Why does this always happen when I talk to you? Hmmmm??
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Not only is it NOT cruel to the animals, but killing an animal according to the laws is MUCH more humane that what occurs in the slaughterhouses today.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Great post, Abigail! I believe we were created to be social beings. I love how you spoke of the law teaching people love, thankfulness and respect towards everything – these things are essential to the connectedness of social beings. I know you spoke a lot about the things around us - but I see that connectedness as also coming into play in our relationship with God and people.
I think it's a natural function for us as social creatures to love God and neighbor. The challenge is to love with ALL our heart, soul, mind, and strength…Like you said it's not something coerced out of someone…certainly not inspired by legalism or obligation.
Just rambling here: Maybe an aspect of the law was to get us from being so self-centered. Maybe that hampers us from being able to love to max. The law identified boundaries and deemed them worthy of respect – "this belongs to someone else – so don't steal, covet, etc."
What connects us as social creatures is bearing the image and likeness of God – that's why we can relate to each other - - and to God! Yet we are all individuals too, having personhood – even God! Boundaries are a part of personhood. I think about how the law said to have no other gods between us and God. There's connectedness and boundaries wrapped up in that: To have a deep, loving fellowship with God – and not allowing anything else to trespass into this sacred relationship.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Exactly, T-bone. If we cannot sense/recognize our connectedness to the beautiful world God created, how will we ever truly recognize our connectedness and completeness with God? Likewise, if we reject what God has created, do we not reject some portion of God as well?
And boundaries, yes, definitely healthy boundaries given by God so that we truly can love our neighbors.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eyesopen
Funny how Romans 1 talks about how believers walked away from God and their first "sin" was that they had stopped thanking Him for all that He has done. They had stopped being able to "see" what He had done and then it is pointed out that all they had to do was look around as God is seen in everything that He has created.
I have often thought that the OT laws were more guilds than laws intended to dole out punishment. God would rather we learn how to be courteous and social and loving towards one another and towards Him of course.
Edited by EyesopenLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Another Spot – another great post and thread! Sorry about the long post here – but I'm afraid I've gone rambling... Loving God and neighbor has come up on quite a few threads lately but I don't seem to tire of it…it's an inexhaustible subject…This time around I've been thinking about how love looks from both sides of a relationship – that's where I was coming from in my previous post. I see true love as a two way street – a give and take kind of thing happening.
What does it mean to love God, love each other? To me, it means both parties open themselves up to each other. Each allows the other to have some kind of effect on them. Maybe this is off the wall – but I figure God made us social/emotional beings – like Himself. In a love relationship – you open yourself up to the other person. We reveal something of ourselves, we take in a revelation of the other person...we place ourselves in a vulnerable position. We take risks and open ourselves up a little more, a little more, a little more. We trust, we forgive, and we extend ourselves a little more. Sometimes we're even provoked to jealousy when something else competes with that relationship.
We accept the fact that we are affected by our relationship with God. Is God affected by our relationship with Him? I think so. We read in the Bible of God experiencing a wide variety of emotions in response to what people did – or didn't do…For that reason – it seems like love, in a way, grants a certain amount of power to both sides of the relationship. Not a power to rule over the other – like a dictatorship. More like both co-reign in this little kingdom of two hearts. God is not invasive. He respects us.
When there's love – there's mutual respect. We respect the other person's boundaries. We cherish the connectedness while at the same time respect their otherness. I've learned a lot of things about love from our marriage. Tonto and I have been married 31 years. I can't remember what it's like to be single. And I don't want to be single again. We enjoy each other's company…There's a lot to that verse in Genesis of two becoming one flesh. I went from being self-centered to us-centered. People that have been together for so long they sometimes know what the other is thinking or predict how they'll react to something. That's love, that's connectedness.
I sort of understand my relationship with God that way. I went from being self-centered to us-centered [me and God]. Ha! You thought I was going to say God-centered. But in my love for God, I focus not just on Him – but also myself in relation to Him. [Have you ever tried to think about yourself from the perspective of someone who loves you?] Obviously, God is the bigger lover here – but sometimes we should consider what it means for US – though a mixed bag of the image of God/imperfection/sinfulness/mortal – to be the object of God's love! He loves us – warts and all! For me it doesn't degenerate into legalism, trying to perfect myself to please Him…It's more like accepting myself for who I am. And that makes me think of the second great commandment – love my neighbor as myself... and so maybe I need to be more accepting of my neighbor…Well, don't know if any of this made sense – but there sure is a lot to think about on this subject, that's for sure.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
If one practices this law, as with all the laws of keeping kosher, it requires you to put much thought into your food preparation. The result of that thought is a respect and thankfulness, far far beyond the simple repetitive "blessing over a meal." There is a real sense of connectedness to the earth, the animals and vegetation that are here to sustain us, and to God for designing and creating the whole thing. When you have this sense of connectedness, as you develop it and build upon it, you have more care for (emotionally, spiritually, and via physical action) the things around you, out of genuine love and respect instead of out of legalism, coersion, obligation, etc.—Abigail
That’s interesting. It reminds me of:
Gen. 9:3-6 (NIV) Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.
I remember reading somewhere that the blood was to be buried. At the time I thought that was puzzling, however I wonder if the point was the action caused a person to be more mindful and respectful…both of the life and the blood. Blood was set aside for atonement and other purposes. I am also intrigued with the phrase, “image of God.” I’ve seen this phrase elsewhere in connection with life and blood. It would be just as easy to say respect the life because God made it. Instead, it’s respect the life because man is made in the image of God. That communicates just how disrespectful it really is to disrespect life.
The other thought I had was that Jesus certainly understood love God, love your neighbor. What He had to go on was the OT…
Good posts all, and lots to ponder. This is just the first thing that sprang to mind.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
Wow, Abigail. I had no idea that is what kosher was all about-- I am very ignorant of Judaism. One of the things that drew me to my current beliefs was the connectedness, respect for animals, nature etc that is found in earth based beliefs.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
Unless I missed one, the first place I could find that states God loves is here:
Deu 4:37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;
The second one elaborates on this further:
Deu 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:
Deu 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he [is] God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
The NIV translates verse nine as a “covenant of love.” This covenant of course was initially with Abraham, who was called a “friend of God” because he believed God. The verses go on to say that if they loved Him and kept His commandments they would enjoy freedom from disease, deliverance, they and their animals would be fruitful and multiply, their crops would be blessed, and other things. God loved them. He wanted them to love Him back and obey for their own sakes. They were in a covenant relationship. God was faithful to keep His covenant with Abraham, He is asking for Israel’s faithfulness.
Verse nine almost sounds conditional, but I’m not sure about that one way or another without doing much more reading. In any case, what I’m trying to do right now is locate every verse that says anything about God is love or that He loves.
One thing I think we can safely conclude is that God loved Abraham and the outstanding thing about him is that he believed God. Israel then was benefiting and receiving God’s love as a result. According to Romans, this faith/believing was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.
So you’re right, T-bone. It is a relationship.
This is something else I thought was pretty great:
Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
P. S. If it’s true that Abraham was born in 2166 B.C., and if the average age for the firstborn of each generation was 21.66 years, then a thousand generations would take us to the birth of Christ. Approximately.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
Nevermind. My math is all wrong...so sorry.
Just double checked with my spouse who is good with math... Nonetheless, I am intrigued with the phrase.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Just wanted to say I'm getting a lot from this thread.
Don't have much to add but glad you started it anotherspot.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
What is it to love God? and to love your neighbor as yourself?
Well isn't God supposed to be love?
So you could then say we are to God God
or
we are to love Love.
The later makes more sense.
Love to love?
Love above all else maybe?
Love first?
What would those things mean?
The simplest way I can think of it is that you allow, let, make love your nature. It is not something you HAVE to do or something you have to even think about doing it is so natural, so apart of you, that it becomes automatic.
You become love or like love or like God.
Then love your neighbor becomes more simple too. You just love.
The specifics of that become a little more hazzy. :) At least to me. Although, I would suspect it would become clearer the more you allow yourself to be more loving, and love love.
my $.02
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
Me too, Cman...
_________________________________________________________________
The book of Job
I don’t pretend to understand the exchange between God and Satan, however I have great disagreement with vp on the meaning of the book as a whole. In the initial exchange, Satan questions whether Job would still trust God if he was afflicted. God then gives permission. The three friends are of the belief Job must have sinned, that is Job’s life was a direct reflection of his own obedience or lack of it, therefore determining God’s actions. In chapter 40, God responds not with answers but questions.
Job 40:1-14
Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Then Job answered the Lord, and said,
Behold, I am vile: what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath : and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
For several chapters God makes the point that Job is not capable of understanding how to run the universe or His righteous judgments. The idea that Job had fear that allowed all this to happen is just a different twist on the same idea Job’s friends had.
What Job finally gets in the above verses is God does what He does, as opposed to being an instrument of the will of man, and when He does things to bless and deliver it is because of His own righteousness and not the relative righteousness of man.
Going back to Deuteronomy, God’s actions to deliver the children of Israel from slavery had nothing to do with their own actions. They had no idea who God was.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
God’s greatest acts of love and deliverance were not earned in any sense.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
I think John's statement "God is love" could have the emphasis placed on any of the three words, but my own feeling is that it should be on "God." If that is true, when we love, we are joined with God. John offers an explicit definition of love in 1John: Jesus gave his life for us. "herein is love..."
This is contrasted to Cain, who took his brother's life. His conclusion is that we also ought to lay down our lives for the brothers and sisters.
There are many ways to give of your life, of your possessions, your time. Whenever you authentically do that, it seems to me, you are joined with God, a co-conspirator, as it were. Whoever loves is born of God and knows God. As someone wrote above... the subject is inexaustible.
All the law is summed up in this thread's title, and as Abi pointed out, God's sensitivities extend even to those of the bovine persuasion (and beyond). All is refected in the law, and I think it's useful to take a look at it, as Abigail is doing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Nice to meet you Dan! Hope you will stick around and enjoy some coffee and pie with us basement dwellers. :)
Not only are you joined with God (as if that isn't incredible enough) but in at least some branches of Judaism, they would say you are taking part in the rebuilding of paradise.
Edited by AbigailLink to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
Thanks, Abigail. I've heard of the Jewish practice of joining with God in the rebuilding of paradise. Can't think of the term for it now. I have a wonderful friend who is a Christian from a strong Jewish background. Her husband is still a Jew, and her son, but her daughter is Christian. I'd ask her, but she's in Cape Cod for two weeks. (And she will be enjoying the lobster! )
The term is not tzedakah, which is giving to the poor...
Considering 1John more deeply in recent years, it's become "easier" to love my neighbor. I sometimes simply stop myself and ask myself the question, "Am I giving or imparting life, or taking from the person?" Forbearance is a form of love. As parents, we do it all the time with our children. If I reveal someone's secrets or past sins to someone else, am I planting something in my listener's mind that they will have to deal with every time they see that person? A truly Christian community would be a broad family of life-givers, where the old folks impart life to the young ones, and vice versa. Then we really are God's children, according to the writer of 1John. If we hate one another, we are joined with the Devil and his work; if we love, we are God's children. And that's all the proof we really need, according to 1John.
And this says much the same thing: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, Another Dan – good post! You've got me thinking about the fall of man in relation to loving God and loving neighbor as myself. In the first sin by the human race – I see a blatant disregard of these love principles. Adam and Eve's doubt and disobedience of God struck a devastating blow to their loving relationship with God. And ignoring God's warning of the harm they would bring upon themselves ["You shall surely die"] they showed little regard for their own well being as well as that of their companion.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
T-bone: Insightful. And with practical, present-day meaning. Do I doubt and disobey God? Is my relationship with my Creator hampered by my self-will? Do I show due regard for the consequences of my actions?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.