Paul-ism

[DrWearWord]

People who elevate their religion about reason are very scary to me.

(yeah, I know, it's not a religion, yada, yada. Put a cork in it)

I don't recall anyone here suggesting that we elevate religion, That is other than Danny and Evan elevating knowledge. And you don't find that scary?

And what do we do to all of the dumb people? Give them free library cards?

[Larry N Moore]

And people wonder why Paul had to say what he said.

Here it is right here on this thread.

I ain't annoyed or angry or anything like that.

It's good you guys are not running countries.

Might want to read your own posts and see who is shooting who.

You boys are shooting yourselves.

Any other threads you want to make into a war?

By your own doing, no one even helping ya.

Look into the mirror.

Your hatred is showing.

-------------------------------------------------

Great post Roy,

see ya around.......

*SIGH* How is it you can't see that you're doing what you're accusing others of doing?

[cman]

And what would that be Larry.

[DrWearWord]

And people wonder why Paul had to say what he said.

Here it is right here on this thread.

I ain't annoyed or angry or anything like that.

It's good you guys are not running countries.

Might want to read your own posts and see who is shooting who.

You boys are shooting yourselves.

Any other threads you want to make into a war?

By your own doing, no one even helping ya.

Look into the mirror.

Your hatred is showing.

-------------------------------------------------

Great post Roy,

see ya around.......

You have your own cup of vile I see...

Maybe that mirror is revealing more than you think.

Was Jesus out of fellowship when he became "angry"?

Are you making a rash judgment over what is healthy anger and what is not?

Does a person have the right to defend their own honor and dignity?

[George Aar]

"And what do we do to all of the dumb people? Give them free library cards? "

Hey, that would be a start! I don't know how that could hurt, as long as they don't eat the covers off of too many books.

What are we supposed to do now? Relate all the wonderful accomplishments of the stupid?

Sorry, I think knowledge is a wonderful thing. I don't make any apologies for that.

Yes, and I know the drill. You don't have a religion, it's just the relationship of a Father with his children, blah, blah, blah.

Sorry, it's still superstitious nonsense to me. And to elevate one's unsubstantiated beliefs in the ethereal above knowledge is how we get young men to pilot planes into skyscrapers and blow up babies in the markets.

Dogmatism, intolerance, pomposity, you've got it all working for WW. Go get 'em boy...

Edited July 25, 2007 by George Aar

[cman]

lol...didn't even name anyone and look who shows up...lol

sheesh...too funny....

Edited July 25, 2007 by cman

[Larry N Moore]

And what would that be Larry.

Give it some thought. And while you're thinking of that re-read the thread from the beginning (in particular when I entered the foray) and considered who threw the first salvo (of insults) in my direction. Although I'm sure Shira wasn't being maliciously insulting when she referred to me as Eeeyore, nevertheless such an insult wasn't warranted when all I was doing was taking her up on her invitation to "Or argue with me, if you'd like." In my response you'll find NO insults hurled at her -- unless you consider my use of the word bizarre as insulting.

Futhermore, I've seen and discussed (elsewhere) this exact same topic. It most certainly isn't anything "new." Maybe it is to her but, I'm quite certain she's been influenced by the writings of others on this subject. If she simply wants a pulpit to present her "theory" -- fine. But then she shouldn't have extended an invitation to "argue" with her. It's too late in the game to complain about those who accepted HER invitation and call them hateful for doing so.

[cman]

Give it some thought.

Already have and done with it. Bye Larry.

[Larry N Moore]

Already have and done with it. Bye Larry.

Translation: I think you're right but, I'll NEVER publicly admit it.

[DrWearWord]

It is very hard being being DWW.

You people are so fortunately "educated"...

Someday you will all catch me in a biggie I am sure... (hehe)

[Deciderator]

Ok, let's presume the premise and Paul was a fake.

Where is the Christian doctrine then?

[DrWearWord]

"but I will always elevate the spirit above knowledge,"

Just like they did in 16th century Spain, or Salem Ma., or for the 30-years War, or ...

Maybe they (16th century Spain, or Salem Ma., or for the 30-years War) elevated their own selfish knowledge and designs over that of the true and perfect spirit. They saw the flesh over the simple love for God as God has so "loved" that he gave the spirit. Christ has so loved the world that he gave of himself.

The law of liberty is a precious promise which must be preserved and kept in the state of unity.

I see it so often on the net people blaming God for religion and having no clue whatsoever that they are doing it.

By blaming God for religion they are judging God and convicting divine omnipotence. Innocent blood.

It is clear that the old testament God (on the surface) was created by man in man's own image.

YET, Christ walked in the image of God not his own.

God is not the reason for human strife, God is the solution.

[Abigail]

Well I for one am disappointed. DWW, I asked you what I thought were some very valid questions in this thread and the other thread and rather than taking time to answer them, you chose to engage in a battle of personalities, a battle of "he said, she said"/"he started it".

It is clear that the old testament God (on the surface) was created by man in man's own image.

The Old Testament God? That implies there is a New Testament God, then there is "the God of this World", I guess that makes a trinity

Seriously though, how many gods do you believe in, DWW?

[TheInvisibleDan]

Ok, let's presume the premise and Paul was a fake.

Where is the Christian doctrine then?

Jesus' "Sermon on the Mount".

The world perhaps would have been a far better place had that been the only Christian writing to survive.

Danny

Edited July 25, 2007 by TheInvisibleDan

[Larry N Moore]

Ok, let's presume the premise and Paul was a fake.

Where is the Christian doctrine then?

That's an excellent question Deciderator (and welcome to GS).

One can say that Christian doctrine could arise from simply the Gospels. Even though the Gospels were written (according to some scholars) after Paul's Epistles. But the question is -- What is the Christian doctrine?

Is it that Christ arose from the dead? The Gospels record that event.

Is it that we have salvation through his resurrection? If the Gospels record that it's a bit vague and they don't exactly speak much of what that salvation entails. Nor does it specifically address the Gentiles equation. If Acts is to be believed -- in that it wasn't until about 10 years after the day of Pentecost before any of the Apostles even considered reaching out to the Gentiles -- then that in itself should inform someone that the concept of the Gentiles having equal access to the salvation obtained through Jesus wasn't known until it was revealed to Peter until much later.

Well, hopefully (despite the fact that there are many other points to consider) this will be enuf to put on your plate for consideration.

[Abigail]

If Acts is to be believed -- in that it wasn't until about 10 years after the day of Pentecost before any of the Apostles even considered reaching out to the Gentiles -- then that in itself should inform someone that the concept of the Gentiles having equal access to the salvation obtained through Jesus wasn't known until it was revealed to Peter until much later.

Which is an interesting concept, in and of itself because Judaism does not teach that Gentiles are excluded from God in the first place. Judaism teaches that EVERYONE, Jews and Gentiles alike, is a God's creation, God's child, etc. So why would that concept have even needed to be taught?

[Larry N Moore]

Which is an interesting concept, in and of itself because Judaism does not teach that Gentiles are excluded from God in the first place. Judaism teaches that EVERYONE, Jews and Gentiles alike, is a God's creation, God's child, etc. So why would that concept have even needed to be taught?

Abi, no one is disputing whether God created both the Jews and Gentiles. But was the promise of the Messiah given to the Gentiles, or only to Israelites? I'm a bit rusty on my OT. Can you tell me where in the OT it says anything about the Gentiles being "joint-heirs" (on equal status of the Jews) of God's promise to the Jews?

[Abigail]

Abi, no one is disputing whether God created both the Jews and Gentiles. But was the promise of the Messiah given to the Gentiles, or only to Israelites? I'm a bit rusty on my OT. Can you tell me where in the OT it says anything about the Gentiles being "joint-heirs" (on equal status of the Jews) of God's promise to the Jews?

I am fairly sure there is not an OT verse that makes reference to "joint-heirs", but the OT says the Messiah will redeem the WORLD, that would incude everyone, not just Jewish people.

[Larry N Moore]

I am fairly sure there is not an OT verse that makes reference to "joint-heirs", but the OT says the Messiah will redeem the WORLD, that would incude everyone, not just Jewish people.

Other than what it says in Genesis 3:15 I'm not aware of any promise given by God to redeem the "world."

Here's part of my problem.

There are many references (one could find) where Israel is specifically told to have no contact with the Gentiles. In fact many references can be cited where God tells the Israelites to . . . how to put this . . . commit genocide when it comes to the Gentiles. That doesn't exactly tell me that God had a very good opinion of them, much less promised to redeem them.

[TheInvisibleDan]

Let's move on a little bit, OK? What do you think about this section?

Barnabus - or Joses, as was his original name - first shows up in Acts 4:36, where he befriends the apostles by contributing money. I don't see any indication that he did anything else. What if he simply caught them at a time when the bills were due? Of course they'd be happy with that, or one might say they'd be "consoled". It was then that they gave him a new name, Barnabus, which means "son of consolation"). Still, there is no mention of any other particular skills or abilities. Sorta makes ya wonder if he was an infiltrator too, possibly funded by some larger entity. His subsequent partnership with Paul is interesting too, because it was Barnabus who convinced several suspicious disciples to accept Paul.

Hi Shifra,

Don't know if this will contribute anything to your theory, but this article on the Islamic Gospel of Barnabas has an interesting section on "Paul and Barnabas", as well as additional links on the topic.

Danny

[Abigail]

Here are some verses for you Larry:

It shall come to pass in the last days, that the mount of the house of G-d shall be established atop the mountains, and be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall stream to it.

And many nations will go, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of G-d, to the house of the G-d of Jacob; and he (Moshiach) will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths." For from Zion shall go forth Torah, and the word of G-d from Jerusalem.

And he (Moshiach) will judge between nations, and decide among the peoples.

And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword upon nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

-Isa 2:2-4

There shall come forth a shoot out of the stem of Yishai, a branch shall grow from his roots. The spirit of G-d shall rest upon him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of G-d... Righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faith the girdle of his reins.

The wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the kid... the cow and the bear will graze... the lion will eat straw as the ox... the suckling child will play on the cobra's hole...

For the earth shall be filed with the knowledge of G-d, as the waters cover the sea.

- Isa 11:1-9

I shall pour forth my spirit upon all flesh.

- Joel 3:1

For then I shall turn to the nations a pure tongue, that all shall call upon the name of G-d to serve Him as one.

- Zephaniah 3:9

I guess the Jew and Gentile concept wasn't such a great mystery afterall, nor was it a "new teaching"

[Larry N Moore]

Here are some verses for you Larry:

I guess the Jew and Gentile concept wasn't such a great mystery afterall, nor was it a "new teaching"

Thanks Abi. I'll give it some thought since I'm at a loss on how that would give rise to the Christian doctrine. Especially since the Jews don't believe that *the man called Jesus* was the Messiah.

*Edited from originally saying "Christ."

Edited July 25, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[DrWearWord]

That's an excellent question Deciderator (and welcome to GS).

One can say that Christian doctrine could arise from simply the Gospels. Even though the Gospels were written (according to some scholars) after Paul's Epistles. But the question is -- What is the Christian doctrine?

Is it that Christ arose from the dead? The Gospels record that event.

Is it that we have salvation through his resurrection? If the Gospels record that it's a bit vague and they don't exactly speak much of what that salvation entails. Nor does it specifically address the Gentiles equation. If Acts is to be believed -- in that it wasn't until about 10 years after the day of Pentecost before any of the Apostles even considered reaching out to the Gentiles -- then that in itself should inform someone that the concept of the Gentiles having equal access to the salvation obtained through Jesus wasn't known until it was revealed to Peter until much later.

Well, hopefully (despite the fact that there are many other points to consider) this will be enuf to put on your plate for consideration.

I might come back for seconds.

(I can only stomach granola for so long and I get indigestion...)

[Abigail]

Other than what it says in Genesis 3:15 I'm not aware of any promise given by God to redeem the "world."

Here's part of my problem.

There are many references (one could find) where Israel is specifically told to have no contact with the Gentiles. In fact many references can be cited where God tells the Israelites to . . . how to put this . . . commit genocide when it comes to the Gentiles. That doesn't exactly tell me that God had a very good opinion of them, much less promised to redeem them.

There were also times when God told Israel to kill of nearly an entire generation of "Jews". There are places where God tells Israel to treat the "stranger" who comes among them very well, there are times when Jews and Gentiles dwelled among one another in peace and places when they did not.

Understanding all of this requires a couple of "perception" changes. First, understand that the OT is seen on a number of levels, as God's blueprint of creation, God's instruction for how to live, a history of mankind and his relationship with each other and with God, etc. etc.

I might come back for seconds.

(I can only stomach granola for so long and I get indigestion...)

Gee, DWW, that comes across as very condencending. It must be difficult to climb down from way up high where you reside to talk to us peons?

[DrWearWord]

Abigail,

My head is reeling from this forum and I have not learned how to quote your quotes with the controls here yet.

So the process for me of trying to comment on them has been tedious at best.

I have tried to touch on your questions in some of my general ramblings.

I need to extrapolate the text and sandwich my replies.

It is not that your intention is not well received but it is that i have not figured out technically how to reply to such a lump of coded text.

If you were to make each question in a separate post then it would be easier for me to reply to them until I learn the way to use the editing tools of this site better.

And thank you for your questions they are always welcome.

Peace with God.

DWW

Edited July 25, 2007 by DrWearWord