Paul-ism

[TheInvisibleDan]

This past Sunday, my wife and I dropped off our daughter at Brown University in Rhode Island for a weeklong course on astronomy and mathematics.

I'm very thrilled for her, and while there to pick up a course book for her, I was blown away with the variety of material at the university bookstore covering

studies in religion and the classics. What a wealth of resources learners and seekers have available to them today, both in print and online.

And God only knows what fantastic discoveries our own children will see (and perhaps even make) in their lifetimes.

Even as we speak, ancient mss. are being scanned for their 'underwriting', yielding material thought forever lost to us.

It's a great time to be living and learning.

Thanks Evan for your kind words. But I was more saddened for Mr.WW than insulted, if his posts are actually reflective of his personal attitude toward learning,

and toward any "biblical research" done outside the old group.

Danny

[DrWearWord]

1Corrinthians 8:1

Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we ALL have knowledge [gnosis]. Knowledge [gnosis] puffeth up, BUT [in total contrast] charity [agape] edifieth.

Comment: Dan and Evan can keep their gnosis and libraries, I will stick with Agape...

God forbid if I should appear "puffed up"...

1Co 2:1

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency [elevation, pre-eminence, superiority] of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

Comment: I wonder if there is s single professor at Brown University that knows or even understands the distinction between body, soul and spirit (the crux of Christianity)?

Christ is the way to gnosis of God...

Edited July 24, 2007 by DrWearWord

[Larry N Moore]

What a wealth of resources learners and seekers have available to them today, both in print and online.

For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

I've seen so many people who have had their heads filled with the knowledge from such sources that they've only ended up losing their personal relationship with God. The goal of gaining knowledge is a fine one but, I would prefer to be ignorant if in gaining knowledge I lost my love for God and His son Jesus Christ and if through knowledge I eventually lost any enthusiasm for sharing that love with those who need it then God let me remain ignorant.

Edited July 24, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[Sunesis]

Well, I know you're all arguing here, and many of you I've known for years and you are dear to me, but, did anyone actually read the long post WW wrote?

It was excellent. Any comments on that?

[Abigail]

I am relegated in this post to constantly trying to justify the sanctity of the scriptures rather than simply accepting the word and trying to understand it's various interpretations and meaning.

DWW, even VPW questioned the sancity of the scriptures and taught "this verse is a forgery" or "this verse was translated incorrectly", etc. There is nothing wrong with questioning, even the sanctity of the scriptures. Indeed, I'd say it is a wise thing in that it prevents one from blindly following.

I never doubt the integrity of any verse of scripture. I do not doubt that they are written by holy men as they were moved by the holy spirit.

And yet there are translations that have verses that one translation or another leaves out, again, even VPW pointed as much out. So yes, whatever the original scriptures contained may have been written by holy men as they were moved by the holy spirit, but what we have today is NOT the original scriptures. Likewise, there were many writings that may have been written by holy men as they were moved that were not included in what we call the Bible today. It is equally possible there are writings that were included that were NOT written by holy men as they were moved. The Catholic Bible has books that were not included in the King James. The Jewish Old Testiment has books and verses that fall in different order than the KJ and later version, etc.

For faith does not require rocket science but simply meekness.

Meekness to whom? I'd say meekness not to man, but to God. God will let us know when we are on or off the right track.

Paul teaches us that charity comes before knowledge.

Perhaps so. But how can one know what charity is, without knowledge?

If a human desires faith they will find the spirit if they desire fear they will find death. This is quite a new concept considering the spirit was first written "upon" stone and now written "within" the heart.

Do you think Dan, Evan, or even I have spent hours upon hours studying because we don't desire faith?? What makes you so sure that our faith is somehow less than your own? Because it is somewhat different? So? Is it meek to assume our faith is less and your own greater? Its a circular argument, no?

Th

is new testament is a work of God not man/woman, it requires faith not genius.

With this written on tablets then only a few people would have known how to read and write and been able to glean the message from the words. Thus with the old testament God was divided by a wall of partition from the common person.

Ah, but the New Testament was hidden from the common man for hundreds and hundreds of years. Who knows what changes took place within it as it was translated over those years? One of the things I really enjoy about Judaism is that they have the Rabinical arguments regarding various verses and their meanings dating back to before jesus ever was born. All of the arguments have been preserved regardless of agreement. So, while some may follow one Rabbi more than another, the arguments of the "other" are still there for those who wish to study them.

Christ broke down that wall spiritually and Paul broke down that wall in word. For Christ Jesus promised before the ascension that the world would receive gifts but he did not specify in what form these gifts would take.

Maybe. But the religious leaders that followed put those walls back up again and what we have today may or may not even remotely resemble the original.

He spoke of a new law but the idea of how this new law would work was completely unknown. Known possibly only by Christ Jesus and God. If not only by God.

I don't believe the new law was really new. It is there, in the Old Testament. It is there, in Kabbalah. What Jesus did was make the information known to the common man, who had likewise been denied access by the relgious leaders of their times - as with what occured in Christianity after his death.

For before Christ those without "the law" in their minds were considered dogs.

By whom? Certainly, not by God, IMO! By all men, or simply by those who wished to retain power over them? How is it different today, really? Even today you have Christians who claim other Christians are not truly Christian because they disagree on some silly doctrinal issue, so what has really changed?

[Abigail]

This completely obliterated the caste system that people (unbelieving believers) like Cr@ig Martind&le try to re-institute..

And again, I say, what has really changed. I don't believe God ever instituted a "caste system", man did. Jesus may have knocked some holes in that system, but man has quickly filled those holes and we still to this day have caste systems.

It is not whether if you are a Buddhist or an American Indian or a whatever, if you do not recognize the holy spirit and equality in others and that it is the gift of God (endowed by the creator), then you are not living up to the level of your spiritual potential as a citizen of this earth.

Agreed. But when you start "reproving" someone for questioning the sanctity of the scriptures, are you not denying the holy spirit within them? God will show them what they need. Answer questions, share your beliefs, debate with logic and reason sure, but reprove them?? But that is how you come across at times. As if you think it is somehow sin to question. I don't by that, I think if anything, it is sin to stop asking questions, to stop learning.

Have you have ever considered what life would be like without the "gift of the holy spirit"...

For without this gift it would be only the smart people that mattered.

Mattered to whom? Certainly that is not true of God and NEVER was. Show me one place in the OT where God didn't love and respect people who were "less intelligent." Pleaes, document how it is that prior to Jesus "only smart people mattered".

Gnosticism, just another self worshiping caste system... Only the spirit can teach us the way of God's perfect holiness.

And the spirit can work in a person regardless of what label they give themselves or others give to them. The spirit can work in them regardless of what "sect" they study with. The caste system has not been done away with. Inn God's eyes there never was a caste system, it only existed in the eyes of men, as it still today exists in the eyes of men.

I am not advocating faith without works... Just that the "works" were done by God.

For what works can a dead man do to please God?

If we are to sit back and do nothing, then why the rest of the book? Why not end at Romans 10:9 and 10? Why are we told to speak the Word? to preach, to teach, to love, etc. etc.????

Obviously, there is more here for us to do.

[TheInvisibleDan]

Also your buddy with the fiddle Dan attacked me and gave no real substance as to why other than as Larry indicated in so many words, Dan was elevating himself at my expense.

Mr. WW -

If you (and Larry) re-read that post, I was poking just much fun at my own self, at my expense.

I apologize to you if this is something which went over your head.

Danny

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Shifra

God loves you my dear friend

thanks I like that better "ROY LIGHT" and yes I will keep shining my friend

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[cman]

I guess these are sensitive people that interpret relaying info as an attack.

While still others perceive scriptures being quoted as an attack.

So I can relate to both perceptions here.

I was just presenting facts on gnostic as you were dww.

Perhaps we can lay off perceiving how each of us ought to be.

I have known the definition of gnostic but not gnosticism.

I learned this definition as you did, in the way, not that this is where you learned it.

And the way of gnosticism here.

Though I am still learning more from many sources as well as learning other things.

Edited July 25, 2007 by cman

[Shifra]

Let's move on a little bit, OK? What do you think about this section?

Barnabus - or Joses, as was his original name - first shows up in Acts 4:36, where he befriends the apostles by contributing money. I don't see any indication that he did anything else. What if he simply caught them at a time when the bills were due? Of course they'd be happy with that, or one might say they'd be "consoled". It was then that they gave him a new name, Barnabus, which means "son of consolation"). Still, there is no mention of any other particular skills or abilities. Sorta makes ya wonder if he was an infiltrator too, possibly funded by some larger entity. His subsequent partnership with Paul is interesting too, because it was Barnabus who convinced several suspicious disciples to accept Paul.

Paul entered the picture via a spectacular magic trick on the road to Damascus, while Barnabus just bought his way in. I'm open to correction here. Did I miss something about the initial appearance of Barnabus?

Then in Acts 13:6-13, there's this spooky story where our two spies encounter a sorcerer, who apparently was interfering with their witnessing to Sergius Paulus, the deputy of that country. Interesting that they were witnessing to this political leader. But here's the funky part: Paul basically puts a curse on this sorcerer. And guess what the curse is! Temporary blindness! Sound familiar?

Did Paul know some ancient alchemy that was capable of causing this? Is this what he used on himself? It's amusing to compare this possibility with the sophisticated poisons and pranks that contemporary intelligence agents use now. Like that Russian agent who was recently poisoned in England.

For someone who preached that we should imitate Christ, this stunt seems a bit contrary. Jesus healed folks, but Paul's first "miracle" was to blind a man.

And how convenient that he would put on this display of power, with none other than the deputy of the country as his audience.

It was right after this incident that the apostle John Mark decided to split. I don't think we can overlook the timing of John Mark's departure. Whether he wished to disassociate himself from such an abusive person as Paul, or if he just got nervous that he himself might be the next victim of Paul's blinding techniques, it is evident that John Mark was not comfortable with what happened there in Paphos. Later, in Acts 15:38, Barnabus and Paul have an argument about John Mark, which results in them separating from each other, because Paul still held a grudge against JM for his quick exit after the blinded-sorcerer incident. Aw yes, unconditional love at its best. Charity. Agape for sure.

[Larry N Moore]

For someone who preached that we should imitate Christ, this stunt seems a bit contrary. Jesus healed folks, but Paul's first "miracle" was to blind a man.

Well, at least the man didn't die like Ananias and Sapphira. Oops! I forgot -- Acts is supposed to be thrown out too because Luke testified that Paul was a man of God. My bad.

[year2027]

God first

Beloved all

God loves you my dear friend

I re-read this verse and context

Acts 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

there is a mystery within the verse

this not talking about a man that does not see fleshly but a man that has not yet seen enough to believe and see the light of truth

yes immediately this man knew he was in spiritual darkness as this men seek the true light so that he could hear enough to see spiritually

not seeing for a season is just a stage of growth

and within Acts 5 Ananias, with Sapphira his wife I see a mystery again

because how can you give up the holy spirit unless you have the seed of Christ planted in you

so I see this about them blaspheme against the Holy Ghost which is eating from the wrong tree like Adam did and them not dying fleshly but dying spiritually and being rolled up spiritually

because the bible is a book of mysteries that the natural man does not understand

but the natural man understands natural death so there got to be more

just my few pennies

note added later - the possession could not of been just land because why would God care about land but it was spiritual fruit given to them to share with others like love or a spiritual possession

natural fruit of mankind is a child and if the women holds the child back from being born the child may die because of this so would not spiritual fruit die if its held in too killing the spiritual child the Christ in us

the bible is about spiritual matters not fleshly matters but fleshly are used to help us see the spiritual light

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

Edited July 25, 2007 by year2027

[TheEvan]

Shif, when the crowd reached out to seize Jesus 'before his time', he simply walked out of the midst of them. In other words, they became blind to Jesus. I don't see anything sinister in the Elymas incident. I'm thinking Sodom, Elisha, etc...

[pond]

ok I will put this hereIM not sure where to put this thought.

last night on house i watched a clip of the show, it was a young man who was very smart very brillant in his thinking gifted really. One of the Dr.'s offered him an internship at the hospital all paid so he could cultivate his talent.

the young man declined, he came from a simple very large family, that owned a business what they lacked in money they shared in numbers and involvment of each others life, for good and bad .

the young man declined seeking knowledge and education even with his mind that was so eager to learn and work with facts that could save a life or change the world.

when asked why he would choose to stay in the hard working never getting any money often time fighting family business, he said "when he looked at the hands of the drs. all of them had nothing on them no ring , no one, they were alone. and he didnt want that for his life.

then it showed the dr. eating supper alone reading a text about some new research being done.

my point? i do think knowledge chages a person. no not all.

but look at the folks who study the bible to the point they now eat alone!! in the sense of no one really goes to that place it is lonely. even vpw said it was a lonely place to be for a prophet.

the divorce rate when one thinks he knows the truth of the bible and the spouse cant compete soars. with a type of justifying pride of having the truth over the vow made before God to love one another till death do ya part.

kids. parents. why because a person has the knowledge of the bible or "the truth".

the part of knowledge brings sorrow is a truth i know when we can explain something we understand it. it is when we can NOT explain an idea or happening we wonder in the mystery of it all and seek a Higher power to enlighten or comfort our souls.

so sorrow comes in when we know the facts and yet the world does not, and we may not be able to ever educate anyone enough to have this knowledge or answer so we see the struggle and it is a sad thing.

I knew it ! we scream when it all hits the fan! knowledge does indeed bring sorrow.

to say knowledge puffeth up like a evil person digs up the knowing of something to hurt another isnt correct, it is just that in the knowing of soemthing we are different than the rest and for the reason I do not understand yes often timess a lesser, or a king to be worshiped.

sems folks cant do a happy medium. Paul knew Jesus by an experience he had, and he had great knowledge of how the religous folks operated and thought , funny thing is with the educated mind he did better really as far as getting the job done, after he went blind folks were frightened of him, with good reason.

and he was alone .

[DrWearWord]

Mr. WW -

If you (and Larry) re-read that post, I was poking just much fun at my own self, at my expense.

I apologize to you if this is something which went over your head.

Danny

You apologize by insinuating I cannot understand humor...

Do you really expect me to take this apology seriously?

I don't hold grudges, but it seems that chip on your shoulder is just as big as ever.

You appear to be living proof of the negativity of "gnosis"...

I will concede that I may have overreacted... But your lack of "genuine" remorse makes me consider if I may have hit the nail right on the head.

Edited July 25, 2007 by DrWearWord

[George Aar]

D.w.w.

Gee, where to start?

I've known The Invisible One - more or less - for a number of years now and I can't think of anyone who's managed to develop any animosity towards him. I don't even know how one would go about doing that. But you did. Congratulations! You get the "Dubious Achievement Award"!

Other than that, I find it more than a little incongruous that you blather on about "agape" and such and yet seem to annoy just about everybody you converse with.

Well, "religious" and "intolerant" do seem to be old bedfellows.

Un uh...

Edited July 25, 2007 by George Aar

[DrWearWord]

If every Bible was destroyed and the knowledge of God completely wiped from the face of the earth (As the Iranian President would maybe like to see) could people still get born again of the spirit?

I tend to think this is like arguing if law OR liberty is the way when the truth is that it is the law OF liberty..

Well it seems that the spirit embodies gnosis just as the law of the spirit embodies liberty. (Just a thought of mine that I have been mulling over in my head.)

The Sophia of Christ. (which I don't pretend to fully comprehend)

The marriage of the spirit with knowledge. Just as the new law married law and love (in the form of liberty.) And the interaction of gnosis and wisdom. (all very mysterious)

For is knowledge perception? There is right knowledge and wrong knowledge...

A spirit without knowledge and truth is dead.

So it is not only the spirit that saves us but it is also the mind of Christ that manifests from the spirit to bring gnosis and wisdom.

I may seem to be back peddling but I will always elevate the spirit above knowledge, for the Bible clearly does too. Just as we elevate the spirit of the law over the letter of the law...

It is the virtue of this gnosis "within the spirit" and not the value of gnosis within our minds (or the library) that we respect.

For this is "God's" wisdom not our own...

Edited July 25, 2007 by DrWearWord

[Larry N Moore]

You apologize by insinuating I cannot understand humor...

Do you really expect me to take this apology seriously?

I don't hold grudges, but it seem that chip on your shoulder is just as big as ever.

You appear to be living proof of the negativity of "gnosis"...

I will concede that I may have overreacted... But your lack of "genuine" remorse makes me consider if I may have hit the nail right on the head.

:) Ain't it funny how we both discerned his insincere apology. We're just too stupid, I guess, to have known he was just poking fun at himself. It just "went over [our] head."

[DrWearWord]

:) Ain't it funny how we both discerned his insincere apology. We're just too stupid, I guess, to have known he was just poking fun at himself. It just "went over [our] head."

Heck, it is a wonder if we can even find the way to the library let alone cognitively read something there...

I am being cynical of course. :)

Cynicism may be to high a form of discourse for my little brain... (hehe)!

[George Aar]

"but I will always elevate the spirit above knowledge,"

Just like they did in 16th century Spain, or Salem Ma., or for the 30-years War, or ...

[Larry N Moore]

Heck, it is a wonder if we can even find the way to the library let alone cognitively read something there...

Well, if you would have waited a bit I'm sure some fine soul would have done a MapQuest request and posted the direction for us. Of course we might be thought of as being too stupid to follow simple directions as well. ;)

[George Aar]

People who elevate their religion about reason are very scary to me.

(yeah, I know, it's not a religion, yada, yada. Put a cork in it)

[Larry N Moore]

People who elevate their religion about reason are very scary to me.

(yeah, I know, it's not a religion, yada, yada. Put a cork in it)

BOO! ;)

[DrWearWord]

D.w.w.

Gee, where to start?

I've known The Invisible One - more or less - for a number of years now and I can't think of anyone who's managed to develop any animosity towards him. I don't even know how one would go about doing that. But you did. Congratulations! You get the "Dubious Achievement Award"!

Other than that, I find it more than a little incongruous that you blather on about "agape" and such and yet seem to annoy just about everybody you converse with.

Well, "religious" and "intolerant" do seem to be old bedfellows.

Un uh...

Read the insulting post he wrote to me about me "going to the library"...

Am I supposed to take that kind of stuff lying down?

Maybe someone should have given me a heads up...

Like Errr, there is a guy (Danny) in the forums that thinks he is all that and a ball of wax, don't burn his onion...

Just let him go on thinking what he may...

And I say, what of the "TRUTH"?

Do you really think I came into this forum to roll over and play dead?

[cman]

And people wonder why Paul had to say what he said.

Here it is right here on this thread.

I ain't annoyed or angry or anything like that.

It's good you guys are not running countries.

Might want to read your own posts and see who is shooting who.

You boys are shooting yourselves.

Any other threads you want to make into a war?

By your own doing, no one even helping ya.

Look into the mirror.

Your hatred is showing.

-------------------------------------------------

Great post Roy,

see ya around.......