It certainly was. I truly believe it was the communication of the truth and accuracy of the word, like we never heard it before,
Some stuff we'd never heard before, for sure. That is what piqued people's interest, and this "ear tickling" to lure people away from the truth with elitist "knowledge" (e.g. "The Greatest Secret in the World Today.... blah blah blah...) is what began to deceive people, cause them to feel that perhaps what they had was inadequate, and siphon them away from true movements of God. I believe since then, much of what VPW used to lure us away has been proven to be inaccurate, and even more, proven to be plagiarized.
Were these guys inspired like this before twi? I trow not.
You certainly do know not. Many of these people were inspired before they came to TWI. Some were already happily involved in Christian groups. I know before I ever heard about TWI I was already speaking in tongues, searching the scriptures, enjoying a very close and spiritual walk with God, filled with fruit of the spirit. BEFORE I EVER MET VPW. I know I'm not the only one.
I believe VPW's believing and teaching helped to encourage fruit like this.
I for one can testify, that the close, sweet relationship I had with my Lord before I came to TWI was usurped by TWI.
I believe VPW's "believing and teaching" helped encourage fruit like this:
After an initial warm and fuzzy couple of years, as "The Word," and "Our Father in The Word" and Way "Doctrine, Reproof, and Correction" edged out the Spirit of God and God's true place in my life and heart, the true fruit of the spirit was slowly and incrementally replaced with emptiness.
In the Corps I once mentioned to someone that I seemed to have had more joy in my life in my early Christian years before TWI and thought I enjoyed a closer walk with my Lord back then than I currently did.
I was told that what I had back then was never a true relationship with God, but a counterfeit, and the real walk with God isn't like that.
Yeah, right. Buncha Joy Thieves.
The distinguishing between what exists today and what existed in the past is appreciated and worth noting. Whatever becomes of twi now and in the future, I believe it was once a terrific place to be.
Well, it was like that for ME anyway. I have to assume that folks hung around so long because they were pleased, as well. Actions speak louder than words.
Well, it was like that for ME anyway. I have to assume that folks hung around so long because they were pleased, as well. Actions speak louder than words.
I'm glad you had fun. But you assume too much. Many of us hung around so long because we were told and believed:
--"There's nothing else out there. No one else has the Word like this"
--"If you leave the ministry, you're a cop-out!"
--"If you leave the ministry, you are leaving God!"
--"The curses listed in the Old Testament are all a "cop-out" has to look forward to"
Oh, and this one, shouted at me as my hand was on the doorknob and I was getting ready to leave, all the way back in 1973:
-- "You'll never get your needs met anywhere else!"
That caused me to turn around, sit back down, submit to several more hours of top-of-the-lung reproof for my engagement to a reallygood man my leadership did not approve of, so I broke that engagement, and settled in for another couple decades of eating bullsh!t.
And after several of those decades, about 6 months or so before I actually left:
"If you don't get a passion for the truth, your husband will die, you will be hobbled for life, and your daughter will be a stark, raving lunatic!"
There were a whole lot more threats insinuated and leveled outright in between 1973 and 1997.
I have to assume that folks hung around so long because they were pleased, as well.
gee, oldies, don't you know what happens when you assume?
i can't ssume to speak for anyone else, but I hung around because i thought if i just tried a little harder, i'd get it right. and THEN the windows of heaven would open and life would get good. i didn't hang around because life was good. for the most part, it was pretty sucky.
Well, it was like that for ME anyway. I have to assume that folks hung around so long because they were pleased, as well. Actions speak louder than words.
Ya know, Oldies, even back in"the good old days" of the early 1970s, people were told that now that they had "The Truth" there was no going back.
The adversary would make their life worse than it was before they heard The Word.
Anybody else share that memory?
So, yeah, they were pleased----------Pleased to stay someplace where the adversary couldn't squash them or their families like little bugs on the sidewalk.
Or, as the expression evolved over the years, pleased they would not become grease spots by midnight.
If you truly don't remember any of that stuff, I envy you.
You must have had a very exceptional fellowship.
So here's the thing in a nut shell.
Even though you could physically walk away if you chose to, most were indoctrinated to believe that terrible things would happen to them and their loved ones if they did so.
Bear in mind that there is a distinct difference between hearing this in a Sunday Night Service and being indoctrinated in progressive increments.
JN & PDSTRO made great music in my opinion, capturing the true heart of a genuine believer who loved God, loved his brothers and sisters in Christ, and truly desired to selflessly serve the body of Christ. They inspired many people to love and to serve God, and epitomized the hopes and desires of the basic believer, who with joy, was discovering his identity in Christ.
Catcup aptly described the life of a Leaf out in the field where I "grew up" in twi. Bunches of people just like that, and it was great. Had it's ups and downs as you learned to walk through your spiritual journey, but the ups outweighed the downs, imo. Loose organizational structure. Emphasis was on learning to be YOU with Christ in YOU. The individual was loved and appreciated and encouraged. You were aware God's presence in your life, and God was the focus. The twi fellowships served as a resource to help you grow. God was #1, twi was #2. That produced lots of growth and good fruit.
When the priorities changed, the individual leaves gladly blew off the tree, the fruit died, and the tree rotted from the roots upward.
I know before I ever heard about TWI I was already speaking in tongues, searching the scriptures, enjoying a very close and spiritual walk with God, filled with fruit of the spirit. BEFORE I EVER MET VPW. I know I'm not the only one.
And I KNOW that I never knew jack crap about God, but wanted to ever so badly. And one night, while in the wheel house of the ship I was responsible for, I got on my hands and knees and prayed to God to send me a Christian to show me the way to Him. And the very next day, a WOW Ambassador by the name of Anne Marie O'Reilly came to work as a cocktail waitress aboard our cruise ship. She witnessed to me within the first few minutes of our meeting, and my life changed forever for the good. It was like a miracle to me, for the Answer came so fast, for I had truly, and finally surrendered my heart to Jesus the night before. And so, maybe you'd had a nice experience with God before TWI, but I had not. And, what was served up to me was wonderful, and the love amongst the Believers was something that I will never forget. Those first two years were literally out of this world, and I thank God Almighty for every day of it. But I do not dispute that it all went way south (as also did the ministry of the apostle Paul), but I know and will always declare that God answered my prayer that next morning with a WOW Ambassador, and with PFAL.
Well, it was like that for ME anyway. I have to assume that folks hung around so long because they were pleased, as well. Actions speak louder than words.
I hung around so long because I didn't know what was going on behind the scenes. I didn't know VPW and all of his top dogs were taking women for themselves and calling it godly. Had I known, that would have made a difference in my decision-making. As Catcup said, we were told NOBODY else had the truth. It's hard to leave when you are fed that enough to believing it and are afraid of the consequences of leaving. That's real godly. VPW was a fear motivator. You know damn well he started that crap. It was more subtle in VPW's days. LCM was just a big mouth about it.
And I KNOW that I never knew jack crap about God, but wanted to ever so badly. And one night, while in the wheel house of the ship I was responsible for, I got on my hands and knees and prayed to God to send me a Christian to show me the way to Him. And the very next day, a WOW Ambassador by the name of Anne Marie O'Reilly came to work as a cocktail waitress aboard our cruise ship. She witnessed to me within the first few minutes of our meeting, and my life changed forever for the good. It was like a miracle to me, for the Answer came so fast, for I had truly, and finally surrendered my heart to Jesus the night before. And so, maybe you'd had a nice experience with God before TWI, but I had not. And, what was served up to me was wonderful, and the love amongst the Believers was something that I will never forget. Those first two years were literally out of this world, and I thank God Almighty for every day of it. But I do not dispute that it all went way south (as also did the ministry of the apostle Paul), but I know and will always declare that God answered my prayer that next morning with a WOW Ambassador, and with PFAL.
I think that God has a way of meeting us where we are. Jonny, you were ready to hear something about him. Anne Marie was ready to talk.
Those first two years were great - but what if He had something else for you to go to after those two years were over? Just what if you weren't looking to go somewhere else because you were told that there was nothing else out there.
Basically, in the long run, God was squeezed out of the equation, as were peoples' hearts and their worth.
I hung around so long because I didn't know what was going on behind the scenes. I didn't know VPW and all of his top dogs were taking women for themselves and calling it godly. Had I known, that would have made a difference in my decision-making. As Catcup said, we were told NOBODY else had the truth. It's hard to leave when you are fed that enough to believing it and are afraid of the consequences of leaving. That's real godly. VPW was a fear motivator. You know damn well he started that crap. It was more subtle in VPW's days. LCM was just a big mouth about it.
But...but Nottawayfer....
"Actions speak louder than words" when it's US,
but when it comes to vpw, his actions are to be dismissed, and his words fixated upon,
didn't you know that?
So if he talked a good talk, and ruined some lives IN PRIVATE,
you just go with his good talk, after all, who cares about a few ruined lives
when the rest of us are learning The Wonderful Greatness Of God's Matchless Word?
While I agree that VP's foundation was built upon sand, I do believe originally, there was a genuine work of God among those fresh, young people who had a heart to serve. And that move was pure.
However, I do not credit VP with the work. I believe Sunesis and others have mentioned this concept of VP capitalizing on what was going on in the late sixties.
I credit VP with recognizing the move of God, and then preying upon that move of God, derailing and siphoning off a good deal of God's truly inspired people. VP allowed them to work their ministries and attract good hearted truth seekers who wanted to serve God, while slowly edging himself in as the "man of God."
VP eventually took over the place in people's hearts that should be reserved for God alone, incrementally dethroned God from the work, stole the allegience of God's people, and the corruption of the movement, the quenching of the the move of the Spirit of God among His people, and rape of God's flock began.
I can't disagree with what you say...The young people who joined twi were sincere and hopeful and loving and really believed in what they were doing...I was one of them.
I think it was people like Jimmy Doop and Steve Heefner that truly had great Christian ministries and Wierwille stepped in and hijacked it all...first he stole the class and then he stole the people from other ministries...he was a thief who sought his own glory...and in the process, ruined a lot of people's lives....
And I KNOW that I never knew jack crap about God, but wanted to ever so badly. And one night, while in the wheel house of the ship I was responsible for, I got on my hands and knees and prayed to God to send me a Christian to show me the way to Him. And the very next day, a WOW Ambassador by the name of Anne Marie O'Reilly came to work as a cocktail waitress aboard our cruise ship. She witnessed to me within the first few minutes of our meeting, and my life changed forever for the good. It was like a miracle to me, for the Answer came so fast, for I had truly, and finally surrendered my heart to Jesus the night before. And so, maybe you'd had a nice experience with God before TWI, but I had not. And, what was served up to me was wonderful, and the love amongst the Believers was something that I will never forget. Those first two years were literally out of this world, and I thank God Almighty for every day of it. But I do not dispute that it all went way south (as also did the ministry of the apostle Paul), but I know and will always declare that God answered my prayer that next morning with a WOW Ambassador, and with PFAL.
You raised the same issue Catcup did- but she identified it more precisely.
You were thankful for what you experienced- God answered your prayers
with genuine Christians with genuine love.
Groucho--
While I agree that VP's foundation was built upon sand, I do believe originally, there was a genuine work of God among those fresh, young people who had a heart to serve. And that move was pure.
However, I do not credit VP with the work. I believe Sunesis and others have mentioned this concept of VP capitalizing on what was going on in the late sixties.
I credit VP with recognizing the move of God, and then preying upon that move of God, derailing and siphoning off a good deal of God's truly inspired people. VP allowed them to work their ministries and attract good hearted truth seekers who wanted to serve God, while slowly edging himself in as the "man of God."
VP eventually took over the place in people's hearts that should be reserved for God alone, incrementally dethroned God from the work, stole the allegience of God's people, and the corruption of the movement, the quenching of the the move of the Spirit of God among His people, and rape of God's flock began.
I think that God has a way of meeting us where we are. Jonny, you were ready to hear something about him. Anne Marie was ready to talk.
Those first two years were great - but what if He had something else for you to go to after those two years were over? Just what if you weren't looking to go somewhere else because you were told that there was nothing else out there.
Basically, in the long run, God was squeezed out of the equation, as were peoples' hearts and their worth.
We don't know what we don't know.....
I can't disagree with what you say...The young people who joined twi were sincere and hopeful and loving and really believed in what they were doing...I was one of them.
I think it was people like Jimmy Doop and Steve Heefner that truly had great Christian ministries and Wierwille stepped in and hijacked it all...first he stole the class and then he stole the people from other ministries...he was a thief who sought his own glory...and in the process, ruined a lot of people's lives....
Talent, drive, enthusiasm, and most importantly hunger for the truth and a deep desire to know God.
Not only were people's lives hijacked, GOD was stolen from.
Yea, yea, yea - someone's gonna say, "But Dooj, where would we have been without TWI? We would still be in our ruts and searching."
To which I say, "God is bigger than TWI." He would have found a way...
Ya know, Oldies, even back in"the good old days" of the early 1970s, people were told that now that they had "The Truth" there was no going back.
The adversary would make their life worse than it was before they heard The Word.
Anybody else share that memory?
Absolutely. Happened even BEFORE I took the class. I had already signed up and was waiting (had to wait 9 months!) for the start up date. Jxhn Nxve, the person who witnessed to me, told me about bumping into someone on the street who had taken the class several years before, and "copped out." Nxve painted a pathetic and horrifying picture of the guy's current spiritual life-- he was "totally possessed," his life was compared to backed-up a sewer, and Jxhn told me that if I "copped out" after I took the PFAL class, it would be "exactly like a dog returning to its vomit."
"Make up your mind before you take this thing whether you want to get involved. Once you have this knowledge, the adversary will want to kill you, and if you cop out, your life will be worse off than before."
Absolutely. Happened even BEFORE I took the class. I had already signed up and was waiting (had to wait 9 months!) for the start up date. Jxhn Nxve, the person who witnessed to me, told me about bumping into someone on the street who had taken the class several years before, and "copped out." Nxve painted a pathetic and horrifying picture of the guy's current spiritual life-- he was "totally possessed," his life was compared to backed-up a sewer, and Jxhn told me that if I "copped out" after I took the PFAL class, it would be "exactly like a dog returning to its vomit."
"Make up your mind before you take this thing whether you want to get involved. Once you have this knowledge, the adversary will want to kill you, and if you cop out, your life will be worse off than before."
That was 1972.
To me.....when I go back in the files of my mind.....the pfal class was wierwille's cut-n-paste operation to bring people into his corporation. Even in the final minutes of the 12th session...."Having done all STAND" and the translation: Stand with and for the way ministry or the adversary, the devil, will kill you.
And, the "code red" unspoken and unpublished version of this fear motivation was ratched up AFTER one took this pfal class. It was like a silenced secret known amongst the grads of the class. Wierwille left little doubt to our impressionable young minds that walking away from "the truth" [as taught in his version] was unacceptable in God's sight.
Why did many of us stay so long? Gee, the interweaving of "standing on the word," peer pressure, fear tactics, "friendships", having forsaken our families, serving a higher purpose, etc........all mounted to years of serving idolatrous men, missed opportunities, staying in comfort zones, marriage with like-minded zealots, etc. And, in spite of twi's oppression.....there still were pockets of genuine love and service to God's kids.
...and Wierwille stepped in and hijacked it all...
which implies that the participants didn't freely choose to participate. We were hijacked. We were kidnapped ... from true Christianity into Wierwille's counterfeit. yada yada yada
which implies that the participants didn't freely choose to participate. We were hijacked. We were kidnapped ... from true Christianity into Wierwille's counterfeit. yada yada yada
Oldies you really like this way of talking - the whole "willing participants" analogy...
When a plane is hijacked the people on that plane are there because they bought the tickets. The difference is that they had one desination in mind and the hijacker has another.
That's the thing. So many of us were wanting to do so much for God. The fact that a lot of good was done for God and His people has much more to do with our drive and enthusiasm than with our knowlege of "the Word."
Sure, the class made many of us feel free from the religion of our parents. The stuffy suits and religious repetition held nothing for us. We wanted to move for God!
And move we did. Out of our homes, out of our neighborhoods, all across the country to spread.....
a CLASS! We said, we thought, we believed we were spreading the Word. But we were spreading a class! A class we believed was handed to VP by God, not assembled with sticky notes from the work of other men.
We bought our tickets. We thought we were going to "Serve God." We ended up on a ride that led us to "Serve Men."
They all walked into it with their eyes wide open. Forget they were starving and broken from the defeat during WWI, being saddled with the entire war debt at Versailles, and were looking for a savior. Hitler didn't seduce Germany, Ham, he saved them.
He rebuilt Germany's industry, and economy, provided jobs, restored their self esteem, and reasons to be proud again to be German. He trained the men to work hard and be strong. He praised and rewarded the fertility of the women, organized and disciplined the youngsters, and told them they were better than everyone else, they were genetically special, superior, and chosen. Therefore the world belonged to them. Why, Poland and the rest of Europe was as good as the promised land. They had the right and the power to go right out there and take what they wanted from the "lesser people," because it belonged to their superior race. He promised that what he was building for them would bring them to the pinnacle of existence and last a thousand years, if they would only allow him to guide the totality of their lives.
When all that bad stuff began to happen, they could have easily stood up and confronted the Brownshirts and SS. Why, they could even have confronted Hitler himself without a single problem, right? Just speak up, right?
Why, if they'd only wanted to, they could have elected a new leader and started a new government from scratch, easy as pie, dontcha know?
ANd those damn Jews, they caused all the problems with their kvetching and moaning. They coulda left the Ghetto at any time they wanted to if they didn't like what happened during Krystalnacht...
They musta stuck around because they enjoyed being rounded up, robbed, shoved into cattle cars and then burnt to a crisp.
Better yet, they probably deserved it, dontcha think?
Note the words from Hans Scholl, one of the very few people to confront Hitler, who lost his life doing so:
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Catcup
Some stuff we'd never heard before, for sure. That is what piqued people's interest, and this "ear tickling" to lure people away from the truth with elitist "knowledge" (e.g. "The Greatest Secret in the World Today.... blah blah blah...) is what began to deceive people, cause them to feel that perhaps what they had was inadequate, and siphon them away from true movements of God. I believe since then, much of what VPW used to lure us away has been proven to be inaccurate, and even more, proven to be plagiarized.
You certainly do know not. Many of these people were inspired before they came to TWI. Some were already happily involved in Christian groups. I know before I ever heard about TWI I was already speaking in tongues, searching the scriptures, enjoying a very close and spiritual walk with God, filled with fruit of the spirit. BEFORE I EVER MET VPW. I know I'm not the only one.
I for one can testify, that the close, sweet relationship I had with my Lord before I came to TWI was usurped by TWI.
I believe VPW's "believing and teaching" helped encourage fruit like this:
After an initial warm and fuzzy couple of years, as "The Word," and "Our Father in The Word" and Way "Doctrine, Reproof, and Correction" edged out the Spirit of God and God's true place in my life and heart, the true fruit of the spirit was slowly and incrementally replaced with emptiness.
In the Corps I once mentioned to someone that I seemed to have had more joy in my life in my early Christian years before TWI and thought I enjoyed a closer walk with my Lord back then than I currently did.
I was told that what I had back then was never a true relationship with God, but a counterfeit, and the real walk with God isn't like that.
Yeah, right. Buncha Joy Thieves.
For maybe a New York second....
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Nottawayfer
WHATEVER!!!
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oldiesman
Well, it was like that for ME anyway. I have to assume that folks hung around so long because they were pleased, as well. Actions speak louder than words.
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Catcup
I'm glad you had fun. But you assume too much. Many of us hung around so long because we were told and believed:
--"There's nothing else out there. No one else has the Word like this"
--"If you leave the ministry, you're a cop-out!"
--"If you leave the ministry, you are leaving God!"
--"The curses listed in the Old Testament are all a "cop-out" has to look forward to"
Oh, and this one, shouted at me as my hand was on the doorknob and I was getting ready to leave, all the way back in 1973:
-- "You'll never get your needs met anywhere else!"
That caused me to turn around, sit back down, submit to several more hours of top-of-the-lung reproof for my engagement to a really good man my leadership did not approve of, so I broke that engagement, and settled in for another couple decades of eating bullsh!t.
And after several of those decades, about 6 months or so before I actually left:
"If you don't get a passion for the truth, your husband will die, you will be hobbled for life, and your daughter will be a stark, raving lunatic!"
There were a whole lot more threats insinuated and leveled outright in between 1973 and 1997.
So glad you enjoyed the ride. Good for you.
Friggin spiritual Mafia
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sprawled out
gee, oldies, don't you know what happens when you assume?
i can't ssume to speak for anyone else, but I hung around because i thought if i just tried a little harder, i'd get it right. and THEN the windows of heaven would open and life would get good. i didn't hang around because life was good. for the most part, it was pretty sucky.
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Ham
Yep.. and it got suckier in small increments. Except when it started getting suckier in even larger increments.
I think life was good in der vey, for those who really enjoyed heaping abuse on people..
look who got promoted..
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Catcup
Yeah.
Actions speak louder than words.
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waysider
Ya know, Oldies, even back in"the good old days" of the early 1970s, people were told that now that they had "The Truth" there was no going back.
The adversary would make their life worse than it was before they heard The Word.
Anybody else share that memory?
So, yeah, they were pleased----------Pleased to stay someplace where the adversary couldn't squash them or their families like little bugs on the sidewalk.
Or, as the expression evolved over the years, pleased they would not become grease spots by midnight.
If you truly don't remember any of that stuff, I envy you.
You must have had a very exceptional fellowship.
So here's the thing in a nut shell.
Even though you could physically walk away if you chose to, most were indoctrinated to believe that terrible things would happen to them and their loved ones if they did so.
Bear in mind that there is a distinct difference between hearing this in a Sunday Night Service and being indoctrinated in progressive increments.
Man, I've gone way off topic here.
Hmmm? I wonder how that happened. <_<
edited for spelling.
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Suda
Catcup aptly described the life of a Leaf out in the field where I "grew up" in twi. Bunches of people just like that, and it was great. Had it's ups and downs as you learned to walk through your spiritual journey, but the ups outweighed the downs, imo. Loose organizational structure. Emphasis was on learning to be YOU with Christ in YOU. The individual was loved and appreciated and encouraged. You were aware God's presence in your life, and God was the focus. The twi fellowships served as a resource to help you grow. God was #1, twi was #2. That produced lots of growth and good fruit.
When the priorities changed, the individual leaves gladly blew off the tree, the fruit died, and the tree rotted from the roots upward.
Suda
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J0nny Ling0
And I KNOW that I never knew jack crap about God, but wanted to ever so badly. And one night, while in the wheel house of the ship I was responsible for, I got on my hands and knees and prayed to God to send me a Christian to show me the way to Him. And the very next day, a WOW Ambassador by the name of Anne Marie O'Reilly came to work as a cocktail waitress aboard our cruise ship. She witnessed to me within the first few minutes of our meeting, and my life changed forever for the good. It was like a miracle to me, for the Answer came so fast, for I had truly, and finally surrendered my heart to Jesus the night before. And so, maybe you'd had a nice experience with God before TWI, but I had not. And, what was served up to me was wonderful, and the love amongst the Believers was something that I will never forget. Those first two years were literally out of this world, and I thank God Almighty for every day of it. But I do not dispute that it all went way south (as also did the ministry of the apostle Paul), but I know and will always declare that God answered my prayer that next morning with a WOW Ambassador, and with PFAL.
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Nottawayfer
I hung around so long because I didn't know what was going on behind the scenes. I didn't know VPW and all of his top dogs were taking women for themselves and calling it godly. Had I known, that would have made a difference in my decision-making. As Catcup said, we were told NOBODY else had the truth. It's hard to leave when you are fed that enough to believing it and are afraid of the consequences of leaving. That's real godly. VPW was a fear motivator. You know damn well he started that crap. It was more subtle in VPW's days. LCM was just a big mouth about it.
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doojable
I think that God has a way of meeting us where we are. Jonny, you were ready to hear something about him. Anne Marie was ready to talk.
Those first two years were great - but what if He had something else for you to go to after those two years were over? Just what if you weren't looking to go somewhere else because you were told that there was nothing else out there.
Basically, in the long run, God was squeezed out of the equation, as were peoples' hearts and their worth.
We don't know what we don't know.....
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WordWolf
But...but Nottawayfer....
"Actions speak louder than words" when it's US,
but when it comes to vpw, his actions are to be dismissed, and his words fixated upon,
didn't you know that?
So if he talked a good talk, and ruined some lives IN PRIVATE,
you just go with his good talk, after all, who cares about a few ruined lives
when the rest of us are learning The Wonderful Greatness Of God's Matchless Word?
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GrouchoMarxJr
I can't disagree with what you say...The young people who joined twi were sincere and hopeful and loving and really believed in what they were doing...I was one of them.
I think it was people like Jimmy Doop and Steve Heefner that truly had great Christian ministries and Wierwille stepped in and hijacked it all...first he stole the class and then he stole the people from other ministries...he was a thief who sought his own glory...and in the process, ruined a lot of people's lives....
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doojable
Talent, drive, enthusiasm, and most importantly hunger for the truth and a deep desire to know God.
Not only were people's lives hijacked, GOD was stolen from.
Yea, yea, yea - someone's gonna say, "But Dooj, where would we have been without TWI? We would still be in our ruts and searching."
To which I say, "God is bigger than TWI." He would have found a way...
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WordWolf
You raised the same issue Catcup did- but she identified it more precisely.
You were thankful for what you experienced- God answered your prayers
with genuine Christians with genuine love.
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Catcup
Absolutely. Happened even BEFORE I took the class. I had already signed up and was waiting (had to wait 9 months!) for the start up date. Jxhn Nxve, the person who witnessed to me, told me about bumping into someone on the street who had taken the class several years before, and "copped out." Nxve painted a pathetic and horrifying picture of the guy's current spiritual life-- he was "totally possessed," his life was compared to backed-up a sewer, and Jxhn told me that if I "copped out" after I took the PFAL class, it would be "exactly like a dog returning to its vomit."
"Make up your mind before you take this thing whether you want to get involved. Once you have this knowledge, the adversary will want to kill you, and if you cop out, your life will be worse off than before."
That was 1972.
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skyrider
To me.....when I go back in the files of my mind.....the pfal class was wierwille's cut-n-paste operation to bring people into his corporation. Even in the final minutes of the 12th session...."Having done all STAND" and the translation: Stand with and for the way ministry or the adversary, the devil, will kill you.
And, the "code red" unspoken and unpublished version of this fear motivation was ratched up AFTER one took this pfal class. It was like a silenced secret known amongst the grads of the class. Wierwille left little doubt to our impressionable young minds that walking away from "the truth" [as taught in his version] was unacceptable in God's sight.
Why did many of us stay so long? Gee, the interweaving of "standing on the word," peer pressure, fear tactics, "friendships", having forsaken our families, serving a higher purpose, etc........all mounted to years of serving idolatrous men, missed opportunities, staying in comfort zones, marriage with like-minded zealots, etc. And, in spite of twi's oppression.....there still were pockets of genuine love and service to God's kids.
Good riddance to "the good ole days."
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oldiesman
which implies that the participants didn't freely choose to participate. We were hijacked. We were kidnapped ... from true Christianity into Wierwille's counterfeit. yada yada yada
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Ham
hmmm. Hitler didn't seduce Germany either..
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oldiesman
Of course, comparing a fascist military dictatorship with a Christian ministry makes a great deal of sense.
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doojable
Oldies you really like this way of talking - the whole "willing participants" analogy...
When a plane is hijacked the people on that plane are there because they bought the tickets. The difference is that they had one desination in mind and the hijacker has another.
That's the thing. So many of us were wanting to do so much for God. The fact that a lot of good was done for God and His people has much more to do with our drive and enthusiasm than with our knowlege of "the Word."
Sure, the class made many of us feel free from the religion of our parents. The stuffy suits and religious repetition held nothing for us. We wanted to move for God!
And move we did. Out of our homes, out of our neighborhoods, all across the country to spread.....
a CLASS!
We said, we thought, we believed we were spreading the Word. But we were spreading a class! A class we believed was handed to VP by God, not assembled with sticky notes from the work of other men.
We bought our tickets. We thought we were going to "Serve God." We ended up on a ride that led us to "Serve Men."
THAT is hijacking.
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Catcup
Why of course Hitler didn't seduce Germany, Ham.
They all walked into it with their eyes wide open. Forget they were starving and broken from the defeat during WWI, being saddled with the entire war debt at Versailles, and were looking for a savior. Hitler didn't seduce Germany, Ham, he saved them.
He rebuilt Germany's industry, and economy, provided jobs, restored their self esteem, and reasons to be proud again to be German. He trained the men to work hard and be strong. He praised and rewarded the fertility of the women, organized and disciplined the youngsters, and told them they were better than everyone else, they were genetically special, superior, and chosen. Therefore the world belonged to them. Why, Poland and the rest of Europe was as good as the promised land. They had the right and the power to go right out there and take what they wanted from the "lesser people," because it belonged to their superior race. He promised that what he was building for them would bring them to the pinnacle of existence and last a thousand years, if they would only allow him to guide the totality of their lives.
When all that bad stuff began to happen, they could have easily stood up and confronted the Brownshirts and SS. Why, they could even have confronted Hitler himself without a single problem, right? Just speak up, right?
Why, if they'd only wanted to, they could have elected a new leader and started a new government from scratch, easy as pie, dontcha know?
ANd those damn Jews, they caused all the problems with their kvetching and moaning. They coulda left the Ghetto at any time they wanted to if they didn't like what happened during Krystalnacht...
They musta stuck around because they enjoyed being rounded up, robbed, shoved into cattle cars and then burnt to a crisp.
Better yet, they probably deserved it, dontcha think?
Note the words from Hans Scholl, one of the very few people to confront Hitler, who lost his life doing so:
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doojable
Don't forget, Catcup - Hitler claimed that God backed him up. Who's gonna argue with God?
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