cman you are getting a grasp of the whole picture I think.
Adam and Eve's transgression was necessary for us to come to earth in human bodies. For us to live our lives and remain faithful to God. Sacrifice was instituted so that reparation for sin could be made and Jesus Christ was the ultimate and final sin sacrifice.
and it seems to me that God did not consider anything evil
and to eat of the tree of good and evil...was to basically fall asleep and become spiritually unconscious
because prior to nourishing ourselves (eating) on a false system (tree) of duality (good and evil)...EVERYTHING WAS GOOD
God called it all good..which included "the serpent"
sirguessalot, how could you possibly not see the contradiction in your philosophy? If God did not consider anything evil then why would He call a tree "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?" Iniquity is synonym for evil and one will find many references in the Old Testament where this term is used in reference to people and things -- Lucifer himself is said to have been cast out of heaven because of the iniquity that was found in him.
sirguessalot, how could you possibly not see the contradiction in your philosophy?
my guess is that its because we cannot make the same assumptions about many fundamental things
especially as it pertains to the meanings found in words like "Adam," "Eve," "God," "said," "garden," "serpent," "tree," "eat," "evil," "sin," "naked," "Lucifer," etc...
so it seems we may be writing the same language...but from an entirely different tongue
which makes it quite difficult to give an answer the rest of your post
my guess is that its because we cannot make the same assumptions about many fundamental things
especially as it pertains to the meanings found in words like "Adam," "Eve," "God," "said," "garden," "serpent," "tree," "eat," "evil," "sin," "naked," "Lucifer," etc...
so it seems we may be writing the same language...but from an entirely different tongue
which makes it quite difficult to give an answer the rest of your post
but i do trust you will find your way well enough
maybe someday i'll learn
I suppose Wittgenstein would have a "field day" with your philosophical logic. :)
Am I correct in assuming that you don't believe the Bible is God's (assuming you believe in the Christian God) communication to mankind? Even if one does not accept that, I would think most would accept that words are used to communicate concepts and usually we don't have that much difficulty agreeing to definition of words. Even when they are re-defined it's not that difficult to discover their etymology.
There are many layers to the definition of many biblical words.
True, but it's not as if we can arbitrarily define them. If we cannot agree to definitions then no communication is possible. We might as well be speaking to a wall whenever we open our mouths.
If there is no such thing as evil then to what would we compare good to? The word becomes meaningless if everything is defined as being good. Would you call the murder of an innocent child good or evil?
True, but it's not as if we can arbitrarily define them. If we cannot agree to definitions then no communication is possible. We might as well be speaking to a wall whenever we open our mouths.
If there is no such thing as evil then to what would we compare good to? The word becomes meaningless if everything is defined as being good. Would you call the murder of an innocent child good or evil?
Don't sweat it Larry, it is never meaningless. We all get from it what we need. Even in disagreement and contradiction, you have from it what you need, as do I, as does Sir, as does Cman.
Communication can get difficult. It can be difficult not to pick apart words and try to find all their meanings (I get caught up in that a lot). It can be equally difficult not to shut out all meanings and see only black and white, in order to not get lost in the multitude of possibilities.
Evil is then an artifact, essentially fictitious, arising from the temporary state of disorder. Reorder the world and evil disappears as though it never was.
You miss the point Larry, nevermind. Perhaps another day another time, perhaps not.
As YOU understand it, perhaps I did. Have you so soon forgot what you told me?
We all get from it what we need.
Evil is then an artifact, essentially fictitious, arising from the temporary state of disorder. Reorder the world and evil disappears as though it never was.
If you had a point to make, other than -- Here's a interesting fellow you should read -- then that point I got. My point was -- if this is the sort of crap the man has to offer I'll pass.
No, I wasn't suggesting you read his work, and it is likely you would get little out of it at this time anyway. SHRUG. I was offering a perspective. It is a perspective you cannot or chose not to even attempt to understand. Your loss.
BTW, nice try with the Holocaust remark, but all it did was reiterate that you didn't "get it".
It is a perspective you cannot or chose not to even attempt to understand. Your loss.
You assume too much. It's not a perspective I don't understand -- it's a perspective I reject. Why I do is something you're obviously not interested in learning. Your loss.
You can't truly reject that which you do not understand, you can only chose to try and understand or continue in ignornace. Nevermind. Accept it, reject it, your choice. We speak different languages I think.
wondering : would it help if i asked what you think you have come to understand about perspectives?
and wondering : what kind/type/style (whatever) of format would you want/need (whatever) to contribute what it is you want to seem to want to teach here?
and also wondering : how would you feel about shifting gears and finding ways to ask and answering questions in a spirit of friendship?...for lack of a better term
You can't truly reject that which you do not understand, you can only chose to try and understand or continue in ignornace.
Hogwash! Take a simple thing like subjectivism. I don't have to understand it and yet I can reject it because there are other alternatives.
Nevermind.
Whatever.
Accept it, reject it, your choice. We speak different languages I think.
You just got done telling me I can't reject something I do not understand (according to you) and now you think I have a choice. I think you're right about one thing -- we don't speak the same language.
Just say what you believe and let it stand. Change if you learn something new .
I was under the impression that this is a discussion board, not a pulpit. Although I can see where I may be wrong based on some of the posts I've seen.
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cman
Well crap, I didn't intend to kill the thread,
and hope I didn't.
This is one perspective, there are others.
................................
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Danny
looks like you are doing fine.
lots to think about.
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templelady
cman you are getting a grasp of the whole picture I think.
Adam and Eve's transgression was necessary for us to come to earth in human bodies. For us to live our lives and remain faithful to God. Sacrifice was instituted so that reparation for sin could be made and Jesus Christ was the ultimate and final sin sacrifice.
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Larry N Moore
sirguessalot, how could you possibly not see the contradiction in your philosophy? If God did not consider anything evil then why would He call a tree "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?" Iniquity is synonym for evil and one will find many references in the Old Testament where this term is used in reference to people and things -- Lucifer himself is said to have been cast out of heaven because of the iniquity that was found in him.
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sirguessalot
hi Larry
my guess is that its because we cannot make the same assumptions about many fundamental things
especially as it pertains to the meanings found in words like "Adam," "Eve," "God," "said," "garden," "serpent," "tree," "eat," "evil," "sin," "naked," "Lucifer," etc...
so it seems we may be writing the same language...but from an entirely different tongue
which makes it quite difficult to give an answer the rest of your post
but i do trust you will find your way well enough
maybe someday i'll learn
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Larry N Moore
Where are my manners? Hi back at ya sirguessalot!
I suppose Wittgenstein would have a "field day" with your philosophical logic. :)
Am I correct in assuming that you don't believe the Bible is God's (assuming you believe in the Christian God) communication to mankind? Even if one does not accept that, I would think most would accept that words are used to communicate concepts and usually we don't have that much difficulty agreeing to definition of words. Even when they are re-defined it's not that difficult to discover their etymology.
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Abigail
There are many layers to the definition of many biblical words.
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Larry N Moore
True, but it's not as if we can arbitrarily define them. If we cannot agree to definitions then no communication is possible. We might as well be speaking to a wall whenever we open our mouths.
If there is no such thing as evil then to what would we compare good to? The word becomes meaningless if everything is defined as being good. Would you call the murder of an innocent child good or evil?
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cman
God is constantly communicating with people Larry.
It's the Lord's work, so to narrow something down to one definition limits it's potential and energy.
It falls to the ground as dead and remains there till life is breathed into it, giving it new life.
New life new meanings and new thinking.
To try to corner someone into a particular verse that one thinks has only one meaning is narrow minded.
There are more meanings then one, there are many and many applications of such words.
To try to limit God to a definition is like trying to control what he says.
The bible is one source not the all truth.
The Word is Truth, and it's more then the bible can hold.
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sirguessalot
Hi again Larry
i must confess how difficult i find it to try and respond to your comments, assumptions, and rhetorical tangents in detail
without merely quadrupling the work of finding those mutual meanings
and given what ive seen from your participation at the GSC since you arrived
you seem to expect others to do your homework for you
not that i couldnt do such a thing for you
...its just that i've got bills to pay...
so please except this frail apology for not being able/willing to apologize to you for my earlier polemic as i wrote that i could/would
maybe someday
lovingly,
Adam and Eve
edited to add: rather than merely leaving...i think i will just try and avoid getting drawn into certain unskilled styles of hypertextual dialogue
perhaps another another thread on language itself would help keep from derailing this one
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Abigail
Don't sweat it Larry, it is never meaningless. We all get from it what we need. Even in disagreement and contradiction, you have from it what you need, as do I, as does Sir, as does Cman.
Communication can get difficult. It can be difficult not to pick apart words and try to find all their meanings (I get caught up in that a lot). It can be equally difficult not to shut out all meanings and see only black and white, in order to not get lost in the multitude of possibilities.
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Larry N Moore
*SIGH*
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Abigail
By Tzvi Freeman
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Larry N Moore
Yes, and there are some who believe the Holocaust never happened. If you think it away it's as if it never occurred. Such is the power of the mind.
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Abigail
You miss the point Larry, nevermind. Perhaps another day another time, perhaps not.
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Larry N Moore
As YOU understand it, perhaps I did. Have you so soon forgot what you told me?
We all get from it what we need.
If you had a point to make, other than -- Here's a interesting fellow you should read -- then that point I got. My point was -- if this is the sort of crap the man has to offer I'll pass.
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Abigail
No, I wasn't suggesting you read his work, and it is likely you would get little out of it at this time anyway. SHRUG. I was offering a perspective. It is a perspective you cannot or chose not to even attempt to understand. Your loss.
BTW, nice try with the Holocaust remark, but all it did was reiterate that you didn't "get it".
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Larry N Moore
You assume too much. It's not a perspective I don't understand -- it's a perspective I reject. Why I do is something you're obviously not interested in learning. Your loss.
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Abigail
You can't truly reject that which you do not understand, you can only chose to try and understand or continue in ignornace. Nevermind. Accept it, reject it, your choice. We speak different languages I think.
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sirguessalot
hi Larry...if i may...
wondering : would it help if i asked what you think you have come to understand about perspectives?
and wondering : what kind/type/style (whatever) of format would you want/need (whatever) to contribute what it is you want to seem to want to teach here?
and also wondering : how would you feel about shifting gears and finding ways to ask and answering questions in a spirit of friendship?...for lack of a better term
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Larry N Moore
Hogwash! Take a simple thing like subjectivism. I don't have to understand it and yet I can reject it because there are other alternatives.
Whatever.You just got done telling me I can't reject something I do not understand (according to you) and now you think I have a choice. I think you're right about one thing -- we don't speak the same language.
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cman
Larry you are a good example of what Romans 1 is talking about.
But that's another thread......
Why are you so angry?
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Danny
My Question would be if you read lost of the post in the other treads
Why do you go in circles with your questions not getting anywhere?
Just say what you believe and let it stand. Change if you learn something new .
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Larry N Moore
I was under the impression that this is a discussion board, not a pulpit. Although I can see where I may be wrong based on some of the posts I've seen.
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