okay Larry, I found what I can for you at the moment.
The teachings that the Tree of Knowledge was always intended to be eaten from at the PROPER Time comes from the Midrash Rabba. More information on this can be found HERE
Information on the Midrash in general can be found HERE
Obviously the death that God was speaking of could not have been physical -- for two reasons. First, I believe physical death was a possibility for Adam and Eve even without "eating" from the "tree of knowledge" because there was also a tree called "the tree of life". Plus another passage in the OT speaks about man's days being numbered -- can't remember the exact wording or the passage. Secondly, the Bible emphatically states that "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." They didn't physically die that day so either God lied to them or He was speaking of death in a non-physical manner. The soul and the spirit is the only thing left to consider if God didn't lie.
This is an interesting "side subject" within this thread that I would like to come back to and discuss further.
So true, although I take exception to the thing about death being temporary. I don't know that to be true. I can believe it but without evidence to the contrary how can I know it?
Agreed. I think the same could be said of the very existence of God. Yet, it is what I chose to believe, because it is what sits right in my heart.
Thanks a bunch Abi, for finding the info I requested. I'll definitely take the time to look through it.
This is an interesting "side subject" within this thread that I would like to come back to and discuss further.
I'll be interested in reading what you think. At your leisure, my dear.
I think the same could be said of the very existence of God.
I agree. Sometimes, I've thought -- if I had met some of the atheists I've spent time discussing religion with online prior to becoming a Christian I might not have become one.
Sorry, but before they ate of the tree of Knowledge Adam and Eve were in direct communication with God. They had eternal life. Since Death is the wages for sin, there can be no death before sin occurs.
Sorry, but before they ate of the tree of Knowledge Adam and Eve were in direct communication with God.
I see no reason why you should apologize for what you believe.
They had eternal life.
I don't recall ever reading the Bible stating this. We (those who have been saved) likewise have eternal life and yet our bodies will eventually die.
Other than in Genesis the tree of life is mentioned three times in Revelation --
2:7 "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
22:2 "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."
22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life"
There may be others but, I can't remember them if there are. Verse 2 of 22 especially attracts my attention because it specifically gives some details of the benefit of eating from that tree -- that being -- "for the healing of the nations." Now, there may be other meanings of this phrase -- other than physical healing -- but I'm pretty certain this is the same tree that God told Adam he may freely eat from. While in Revelation it speaks of it's benefit to "nations" (plural) I don't see how Adam would not have received the same benefit. And if so that brings up a question in my mind of: Why would Adam need healing? The tree wasn't planted just for the benefit of a future generation.
Furthermore, as I understand it, God designed the body to heal itself. Adam had the same type of body we do and from what I know it's perfectly natural for the body to die daily unless some sort of intervention takes place -- like medicine. I think that's what the tree of life represents -- intervention in the natural course of things.
Additionally you have the verses in Genesis 3:22 and 24 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever . . . and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Seems to me that it was the "tree of life" that made it possible for man to live (physically) forever. That's why God had to a guard around the tree -- to prevent that.
Since Death is the wages for sin, there can be no death before sin occurs.
Well, I understand this but, it does present a problem if you consider a new-born child dying. What sins did a new-born child commit that caused death?
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
The word “concluded” in Gal. is like fish caught in a net. It was a condition that doesn’t necessarily mean sin is committed. Also, because of Adam all men die and all are concluded in sin, but it doesn’t mean death in individuals is the direct result of individual sin.
Also, I’ve read the correct translation to thou shalt surely die, is dying thou shalt die. It wasn’t spirit, as there is no indication Adam and Eve had it. It couldn’t logically be soul, and according to Romans, it was physical death.
So there is a big logic problem here. They were allowed to freely eat of every tree except the tree of KofG and E. The only explanation that fits the facts for me is they had eternal life, sinned, received the judgment dying thou shalt die (thus losing it), and at this point the tree of life was withheld.
I don’t know about the healing part other than there is a relationship between sickness and death and healing and life.
Here are some Rabbinical theories regarding Adam and Eve and the eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that I thought some of you might find interesting
The fearsome things You bring upon us, You bring about by contrivance. Look: when G-d created the world, He created the angel of death on the very first day... as it is written, "And darkness was upon the face of the abyss" (Genesis 1:2). Man was created only on the sixth day, and it is a plot that was contrived against him that he is the one who brought death upon the world [by eating from the Tree of Knowledge]as it is written, "For on the day that you eat from it, you shall die" (ibid. 2:17). . .
By the same token, Adam said to G-d: "Master of the World! For two thousand years before You created Your world, the Torah was safeguarded with You... and in it is written, 'This is the law: If a man should die in a tent....' (Numbers 19:14). Had You not prepared death for Your creatures, would You have so written? And then You come and attach the blame to me." Hence (Psalms 66:5): "His fearsome plot upon the children of man."
(Midrash Tanchuma
When a soul's bond to G-d is stretched to the breaking point, the force with which it rebounds to its Source is greater than anything that can be generated by the soul that never leaves the divine orbit. And when a soul wanders off to the most alien corners of life, and exploits the very negativity and evil of its environment as the impetus to return to G-d, it redeems those parts of G-d's creation that lie beyond the pale of a righteous life.
This is G-d's "fearsome plot upon the children of man": to create man with an inclination to evil, so that when he succumbs to it, he should rebound with a greater love for G-d, and with a greater harvest of transformed and redeemed resources, than is generated by a life lived in conformity with the divine will.
Based on the teachings of the Lubavitcher Rebbe; adapted by Yanki Tauber
I cannot say with a certainty that these statements are 100% accurate. But human nature being what it is, I think there is truth in the notion that often it is only when we are at our worst, that we turn to God with the most passion.
Likewise, we are often more merciful and compassionate toward those who have fallen into the same "traps" that we have. We understand them more, because to some extent or another we have walked in their shoes. When someone's troubles are alien to us, because we have never faced them, we often have a more difficult time relating, empathizing, being compassionate.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Another spot, I anticipated that being one of the verses that would be cited in rebuttal to the point I made. I'm always grateful, whenever someone points to references in the Bible to enrich my understanding and/or cause me to re-think a doctrinal pov I hold which may not be accurate. Reading through the remainder of the chapter I find this also said: "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." and think (in reading through the whole context) that it appears that sin is no longer a factor for us concerning death. We've already passed "GO" and collected our $200. So for us, imo at least, we aren't even on the "payroll" of sin and therefore can't earn death.
We've already passed "GO" and collected our $200. So for us, imo at least, we aren't even on the "payroll" of sin and therefore can't earn death.—Larry
Quite right. But we do still experience it. I was trying to make the point it is a condition put on all, but not particularly earned in reference to your baby statement. Not completely thought out…of course we were redeemed.
What do you think of Hebrews 2:14? I.e the devil having the power (exousia) of death? Twi taught the devil was the author of death. There is no such Scripture and clearly in Genesis God put forth the rules.
What do you think of Hebrews 2:14? I.e the devil having the power (exousia) of death? Twi taught the devil was the author of death. There is no such Scripture and clearly in Genesis God put forth the rules.
Perhaps..
what if he merely have the authority to dole it out? Doesn't make him the author of it so to speak.
doesn't necessarily mean every time a person dies, the devil did it.. I had a hard time reconciling that thought with reality even when I was really *IN* der vey. Some guy, 103 years old.. worn out.. somehow, he gets "tricked" by the devil, and thereby dies.. never really set well with me.
Personally, I don't know if I would agree anymore that the devil and the "angel of death" spoken of are exactly one and the same.
I could easily snuff out a whole colony of ants if I wanted.. does the fact that I have the supposed authority, or ability to do so, make me the devil?
Who knows..
some people have called me an angel.. others, well..
I see no reason why you should apologize for what you believe.
I don't recall ever reading the Bible stating this. We (those who have been saved) likewise have eternal life and yet our bodies will eventually die.
Other than in Genesis the tree of life is mentioned three times in Revelation --
2:7 "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
22:2 "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."
22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life"
There may be others but, I can't remember them if there are. Verse 2 of 22 especially attracts my attention because it specifically gives some details of the benefit of eating from that tree -- that being -- "for the healing of the nations." Now, there may be other meanings of this phrase -- other than physical healing -- but I'm pretty certain this is the same tree that God told Adam he may freely eat from. While in Revelation it speaks of it's benefit to "nations" (plural) I don't see how Adam would not have received the same benefit. And if so that brings up a question in my mind of: Why would Adam need healing? The tree wasn't planted just for the benefit of a future generation.
Furthermore, as I understand it, God designed the body to heal itself. Adam had the same type of body we do and from what I know it's perfectly natural for the body to die daily unless some sort of intervention takes place -- like medicine. I think that's what the tree of life represents -- intervention in the natural course of things.
Additionally you have the verses in Genesis 3:22 and 24 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever . . . and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Seems to me that it was the "tree of life" that made it possible for man to live (physically) forever. That's why God had to a guard around the tree -- to prevent that.
Well, I understand this but, it does present a problem if you consider a new-born child dying. What sins did a new-born child commit that caused death?
A newborn child dies not because of sin, but because death came into the world because of Adam's sin. Therefore, a newborn baby that has anything medically wrong, that can't breath properly, whose heart is not functioning properly etc. will die. The baby will die because man no longer has the eternal life that Adam and Eve were granted in the Garden before they sinned.
Gen 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 2:4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed
G-d created the first man as a two sided creature--one face male, and one face female. He then hewed him in two and made a back for each half.
-Midrash Rabbah
The Lubavitcher Rebbe explains it this way (I would post the link but it comes up as a pop up and I can't figure out how to do it)
For man was created in the image of G-d, and the divine image has both a male and female aspect. As the book of Genesis states: "And G-d created man in His image, in the image of G-d He created him; male and female He created them."
If G-d desired mankind to comprised of both male and female, why did He not create them that way in the first place--as He did with the other animals?
Because if they were to be originally and intrinsically two, each would be trapped in the exclusivity of his or her identity. Their encounter would be a relationship at best, a war at worst. Neither would have it in them to transcend the individuality into which they were born. The two would remain two, however integrated.
But neither did G-d desire man to be a singular being. As a single individual, man was without match, without challenge, and thus without potential for growth and creation. "It is not good that man be alone," said the Creator; he requires a "helpmeet" and an "opposite".
So G-d created them one, and then split them into two. Thus man searches for woman and woman yearns for man. Thus each has it within their power to reach within their splintered self and uncover their primordial oneness. Thus man and woman cleave to each other and become one.
So G-d created them one, and then split them into two. Thus man searches for woman and woman yearns for man. Thus each has it within their power to reach within their splintered self and uncover their primordial oneness. Thus man and woman cleave to each other and become one.
Thanks Abigail, and yeah Mr. Hammeroni, seems to be a big part of the journey, finding ourselves in oneness. The darn things just keep coming and we just keep seeing more of the life we have.
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Ham
"Death" is often used used as a symbol for change.. ususually irreversible..
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Larry N Moore
Reincarnation is an interesting subject in itself. Haven't heard of anyone claiming to have been Adam in a previous life though.
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Abigail
okay Larry, I found what I can for you at the moment.
The teachings that the Tree of Knowledge was always intended to be eaten from at the PROPER Time comes from the Midrash Rabba. More information on this can be found HERE
Information on the Midrash in general can be found HERE
This is an interesting "side subject" within this thread that I would like to come back to and discuss further.Agreed. I think the same could be said of the very existence of God. Yet, it is what I chose to believe, because it is what sits right in my heart.
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Larry N Moore
Thanks a bunch Abi, for finding the info I requested. I'll definitely take the time to look through it.
I'll be interested in reading what you think. At your leisure, my dear.I agree. Sometimes, I've thought -- if I had met some of the atheists I've spent time discussing religion with online prior to becoming a Christian I might not have become one.
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Danny
wow looks like we are playing nice again.
thanks
peace
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Abigail
Sometimes it is just a matter of clearing the air a bit. Hash it out, and it's done. I prefer a little verbal anger over silent anger. :)
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templelady
Sorry, but before they ate of the tree of Knowledge Adam and Eve were in direct communication with God. They had eternal life. Since Death is the wages for sin, there can be no death before sin occurs.
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cman
And direct communication with the Serpent as well.
That doesn't mean they didn't know exactly what they were doing, any of them.
Plus the action by Adam must be seen as intentional imo.
Just a thought or two. Maybe three to four.
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cman
With Adam naming the animals, seems to me he knew quite a bit.
Whatever he called them, God did too.
Quite a relationship for Adam to be in charge there.
Whatever he called them God agreed.
Doesn't say anything about anyone else involved but Adam,
in contrast to what we were led to think in the way.
And not saying that anyone still thinks like that, just making a point.
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Larry N Moore
I don't recall ever reading the Bible stating this. We (those who have been saved) likewise have eternal life and yet our bodies will eventually die.
Other than in Genesis the tree of life is mentioned three times in Revelation --
2:7 "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
22:2 "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."
22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life"
There may be others but, I can't remember them if there are. Verse 2 of 22 especially attracts my attention because it specifically gives some details of the benefit of eating from that tree -- that being -- "for the healing of the nations." Now, there may be other meanings of this phrase -- other than physical healing -- but I'm pretty certain this is the same tree that God told Adam he may freely eat from. While in Revelation it speaks of it's benefit to "nations" (plural) I don't see how Adam would not have received the same benefit. And if so that brings up a question in my mind of: Why would Adam need healing? The tree wasn't planted just for the benefit of a future generation.
Furthermore, as I understand it, God designed the body to heal itself. Adam had the same type of body we do and from what I know it's perfectly natural for the body to die daily unless some sort of intervention takes place -- like medicine. I think that's what the tree of life represents -- intervention in the natural course of things.
Additionally you have the verses in Genesis 3:22 and 24 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever . . . and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Seems to me that it was the "tree of life" that made it possible for man to live (physically) forever. That's why God had to a guard around the tree -- to prevent that.
Well, I understand this but, it does present a problem if you consider a new-born child dying. What sins did a new-born child commit that caused death?
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Danny
As far as Adam and knowledge I think he must of been way above
average. Maybe perfect. I would think so. It never says it so it's a
guest.
The forbiden fruit was that of just knowing good and evil.
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another spot
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
The word “concluded” in Gal. is like fish caught in a net. It was a condition that doesn’t necessarily mean sin is committed. Also, because of Adam all men die and all are concluded in sin, but it doesn’t mean death in individuals is the direct result of individual sin.
Also, I’ve read the correct translation to thou shalt surely die, is dying thou shalt die. It wasn’t spirit, as there is no indication Adam and Eve had it. It couldn’t logically be soul, and according to Romans, it was physical death.
So there is a big logic problem here. They were allowed to freely eat of every tree except the tree of KofG and E. The only explanation that fits the facts for me is they had eternal life, sinned, received the judgment dying thou shalt die (thus losing it), and at this point the tree of life was withheld.
I don’t know about the healing part other than there is a relationship between sickness and death and healing and life.
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Abigail
Here are some Rabbinical theories regarding Adam and Eve and the eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that I thought some of you might find interesting
I cannot say with a certainty that these statements are 100% accurate. But human nature being what it is, I think there is truth in the notion that often it is only when we are at our worst, that we turn to God with the most passion.
Likewise, we are often more merciful and compassionate toward those who have fallen into the same "traps" that we have. We understand them more, because to some extent or another we have walked in their shoes. When someone's troubles are alien to us, because we have never faced them, we often have a more difficult time relating, empathizing, being compassionate.
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Ham
wages are normally earned.. death is described as the payment. What about animals? Can animals sin? Yet they die daily as well..
Maybe it is a different kind of "death".
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Abigail
Hammeroni's post got me wondering about death, so I've been doing some digging and here are two interesting things I came across.
one translation regarding "for on the day you eat of it, thou shalt surely die" renders it "thou shalt be deserving of death."
Another version I came across reckons 1 day is 1,000 years to God. Adam lived another 930 years after eating thereof. hmmmmm
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Larry N Moore
Another spot, I anticipated that being one of the verses that would be cited in rebuttal to the point I made. I'm always grateful, whenever someone points to references in the Bible to enrich my understanding and/or cause me to re-think a doctrinal pov I hold which may not be accurate. Reading through the remainder of the chapter I find this also said: "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." and think (in reading through the whole context) that it appears that sin is no longer a factor for us concerning death. We've already passed "GO" and collected our $200. So for us, imo at least, we aren't even on the "payroll" of sin and therefore can't earn death.
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another spot
We've already passed "GO" and collected our $200. So for us, imo at least, we aren't even on the "payroll" of sin and therefore can't earn death.—Larry
Quite right. But we do still experience it. I was trying to make the point it is a condition put on all, but not particularly earned in reference to your baby statement. Not completely thought out…of course we were redeemed.
What do you think of Hebrews 2:14? I.e the devil having the power (exousia) of death? Twi taught the devil was the author of death. There is no such Scripture and clearly in Genesis God put forth the rules.
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Ham
Perhaps..
what if he merely have the authority to dole it out? Doesn't make him the author of it so to speak.
doesn't necessarily mean every time a person dies, the devil did it.. I had a hard time reconciling that thought with reality even when I was really *IN* der vey. Some guy, 103 years old.. worn out.. somehow, he gets "tricked" by the devil, and thereby dies.. never really set well with me.
Personally, I don't know if I would agree anymore that the devil and the "angel of death" spoken of are exactly one and the same.
I could easily snuff out a whole colony of ants if I wanted.. does the fact that I have the supposed authority, or ability to do so, make me the devil?
Who knows..
some people have called me an angel.. others, well..
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templelady
A newborn child dies not because of sin, but because death came into the world because of Adam's sin. Therefore, a newborn baby that has anything medically wrong, that can't breath properly, whose heart is not functioning properly etc. will die. The baby will die because man no longer has the eternal life that Adam and Eve were granted in the Garden before they sinned.
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cman
Adam and Eve....
Do we see them as two or one?
Gen 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 2:4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed
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Abigail
Cman,
I thought you might enjoy this
The Lubavitcher Rebbe explains it this way (I would post the link but it comes up as a pop up and I can't figure out how to do it)Link to comment
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Danny
Speaking of death even though it says we already
beat it
It also say the last enemy to be destroyed is death.
So sort as the beginning where god said you will surly die
a time thing takes place.
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Ham
Wowser..
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cman
Thanks Abigail, and yeah Mr. Hammeroni, seems to be a big part of the journey, finding ourselves in oneness. The darn things just keep coming and we just keep seeing more of the life we have.
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