Adam & Eve

[Abigail]

The word "obtuse" comes to mind.

[Larry N Moore]

The word "obtuse" comes to mind.

Have you considered taking medication for your condition?

[Abigail]

Larry, I never knew you were a doctor, how fascinating!!

[Ham]

True, but it's not as if we can arbitrarily define them.

Why not? One of my favorite figures of speech does allow for this..

how often does the bible quote itself, giving different meanings and different contexts to not only the words, but sometimes whole passages themselves?

"umm, it really wasn't about David, it was about Jesus.."

or

"umm, it really wasn't about Ahitophel's treachery, it was about Judas's betrayal.."

Apparently this is how the divine often communicates with the human..

Edited July 18, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Larry N Moore]

Larry, I never knew you were a doctor, how fascinating!!

Yea, well, I never knew you were intelligent but, that's the beauty of the Internet -- you can pretend to be something you're not. You don't have to be a doctor to recommend someone, who has a headache, take some aspirin to alleviate their pain.

Now, I wonder how far down this path we'll go before someone gets it back on track.

[Danny]

Larry from my seat looks like you do more questioning

and starting to insult some.

This tread was and is about Adam and Eve it would be nice if you want

to bitch at other start you own tread.

You welcome to stay it's an open board.

I think I asked you on the prayer form to do the same.

Let me here are you really here to add or subtract?

Edited July 18, 2007 by Danny

[Larry N Moore]

Larry from my seat looks <snip>

Try sitting somewhere else. Your perspective might change. *sigh* Seriously Danny, anyone (who is being honest) could easily see that I wasn't the one who initially derailed the topic or started the trading of insults. Of course that's just my perspective as seen from the seat I'm sitting on. I imagine there are some people here who have developed some bonds with each other (good for them) -- that doesn't make for a very objective opinion of matters such as this. So, try going back through the thread and quote exactly where you think I started the side-tracking and if I was the first to "cast a stone". Here's a hint for you -- look to page three and at cmas' posts and my responses to them.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[Abigail]

Try sitting somewhere else. Your perspective might change. *sigh* Seriously Danny, anyone (who is being honest) could easily see that I wasn't the one who initially derailed the topic or started the trading of insults. Of course that's just my perspective as seen from the seat I'm sitting on. I imagine there are some people here who have developed some bonds with each other (good for them) -- that doesn't make for a very objective opinion of matters such as this. So, try going back through the thread and quote exactly where you think I started the side-tracking and if I was the first to "cast a stone". Here's a hint for you -- look to page three and at cmas' posts and my responses to them.

Well, yeah, I confess I have bonds with some of the posters down here. Yet, we don't always agree and manage to discuss our disagreements without anger or insults. I could just as easily get to know you and develop a bond with you at some point down the road, or not.

Agreement is NOT required, respect on the other hand . . .

Edited July 19, 2007 by Abigail

[cman]

Larry,

I looked at page 3 and saw no insults from me.

Or stones cast, as you say.

The fact is there are other perspectives.

I said your opinion is biased, you said mine was too.

I did not respond, that doesn't mean I agree.

You took offense with the word biased.

My meaning is 'seeing only one perspective, without considering deeply another's'.

To which you openly admit on threads.

And throwing the shots at people is making you look silly.

Does that say I think you are silly?

No, it says you just look silly.

You think people here haven't dealt with what you have?

You just might be surprised, if you give them a chance.

[cman]

And btw you derailed this thread from Adam and Eve to you.

Leaving out much to be learned and seen by all the Adam and Eve's.

Though it has turned, while others are seeing more,

you are not partaking of the wealth of this place and it's heart.

And yes Abigail, I see that edit, respect is a requirement for posting here.

Respecting each other.

An admonishment to me as well.

Anything that is said can be taken to heart by any hearer.

Part of the beauty of listening and being 'involved' in a discussion.

Whether one posts or not, many are listening.

Edited July 19, 2007 by cman

[Larry N Moore]

You took offense with the word biased.

No I didn't cman. For you to think so probably is self-projecting. Why would I take offense to an attribute that everyone shares? The term bias is generally perceived as a negative attribute (and it can be) but bias is everything that's been filtered and processed through your mind making you who you are.

My meaning is 'seeing only one perspective, without considering deeply another's'.

To which you openly admit on threads.

How deep does one have to consider something before that "light-bulb" turns on and they see the light as you see the light? *sigh* You assume that I DON'T or haven't consider what others say "deeply." Now THAT I find mildly offensive. Mildly because you aren't the first one who I've seen make such assumptions.

And throwing the shots at people is making you look silly.

Does that say I think you are silly?

No, it says you just look silly.

:) You silly guy. Try "deeply" thinking about what you're saying.

You think people here haven't dealt with what you have?

Are you a mind-reader? You don't know what I think about what people here have dealt with. You certainly don't know what I have dealt with.

You just might be surprised, if you give them a chance.

You might just be surprised at how easily I can get along with people if they give me a chance. That's a two-way street, my friend.

Have I "attacked" viewpoints? Sure. Some people aren't comfortable having their viewpoints challenged and resort to an defensive position of attacking a person's personality. Somehow, I don't think you'll be able to see the difference.

[cman]

No I didn't cman. For you to think so probably is self-projecting. Why would I take offense to an attribute that everyone shares? The term bias is generally perceived as a negative attribute (and it can be) but bias is everything that's been filtered and processed through your mind making you who you are.

I disagree with that viewpoint and assessment.

As far as the rest of what you said, I have no comments for you.

[Larry N Moore]

I disagree with that viewpoint and assessment.

Well, that's fine by me. Obviously, it's much easier for you just to say you disagree then to actually explain why you disagree. Makes for a shorter discussion. Thanks.

[Abigail]

You might just be surprised at how easily I can get along with people if they give me a chance. That's a two-way street, my friend.

Have I "attacked" viewpoints? Sure. Some people aren't comfortable having their viewpoints challenged and resort to an defensive position of attacking a person's personality. Somehow, I don't think you'll be able to see the difference.

Alright Larry, I'm willing to "give you a chance." But I will point out that many people get defensive when someone is "attacking". There are ways of disagreeing or offering other viewpoints without "attacking" the view point of the person you are responding to. You might find you get better results and a better reception if you try it sometime. I know you would from me. I don't feel particulary defensive when you respond to my posts. I just feel like you have no respect for my thoughts, words, beliefs and therefore I do not feel particluarly compelled to offer much respect in return. It is something of a two way street. You may note on pages 3 and 4, I did start out quite respectful. I quit being respectful because I figured if you had no respect to offer me, I would save my respect for someome more deserving of it.

[Larry N Moore]

Alright Larry, I'm willing to "give you a chance." But <snip>

Ok Abigail. I'll consider what you said and keep in mind how you feel.

Just found out the Waitress is a.... Waiter.

LOL. Where do they come up with these funny sayings?

Edited July 19, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[cman]

I've already explained why I disagree with that Larry.

I'm not going to keep repeating and rephrasing when you have already said you don't want to hear.

[Larry N Moore]

I've already explained why I disagree with that Larry.

I'm not going to keep repeating and rephrasing when you have already said you don't want to hear.

*SIGH*

You just don't know what you're doing or get it, do you cman?

If you look back at one of my posts to Abigail I made the statement (in gist): "Now, I wonder how far down this path we'll go before someone will get it back on track." Instead of taking the hint, I was immediately attacked AGAIN. Sheesh, sweet Louise!

[cman]

you call my last post an attack?

that's funny that you say I'm not getting it.....

I'm not on your track, but have been in many ways

but don't want to get on it again, can't anymore...

[Larry N Moore]

you call my last post an attack?

that's funny that you say I'm not getting it.....

I'm not on your track, but have been in many ways

but don't want to get on it again, can't anymore...

Well, I guess that is as good an answer to my question as I can expect -- the answer being -- No.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[Larry N Moore]

<snip> Man had a choice to make, will I follow and obey God and walk with him in his spirit, or will I follow my own knowledge, a knowledge not from God? Does God know better than me, or do I know better than God?

We still make that choice at some point in our lives today.

Sunesis, that's essentially what I was saying (in a previous post). If I were to rename the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" I would call it -- "the tree of self-determination." When we take it upon ourselves to decide what is good and what is evil we elevate ourselves to the position of being just like God -- god-like.

[Abigail]

There is a passage, I can't remember the chapter or verse, but it is in the section where God is telling Moses he will not enter the promised land, but that Joshua will. In that passage, God refers to the children of those who have wandered the desert and who will enter the promised land as those who "know neither good nor evil."

In other words, being children they do not know the difference between right and wrong and therefore everything they do is right or good in the eyes of a child. Anyone who has raised children realizes that all kids do go through a phase like this. So, Adam and Eve, before eating, were children who did not know the difference between good and evil. Everything they did was right in their own eyes. It was only after eating that they had an understanding that they could also do tings that were not good.

Again, an evolutionary step forward from being apes to being human beings.

[Larry N Moore]

Abigail, there is also a passage in Genesis where God tells Adam and Eve what was right and what was wrong.

Genesis 2:16 - 17

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God told Adam and Eve that it was ok (right) to eat of every "tree of the garden" but not ok (wrong) to eat of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil." They chose to do what was wrong (according to God) being convinced by the serpent that it was the right thing to do because in doing so they too would be just like God -- deciding what was right and what was wrong. Like I said -- self-determination.

[Abigail]

Abigail, there is also a passage in Genesis where God tells Adam and Eve what was right and what was wrong.

Genesis 2:16 - 17

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God told Adam and Eve that it was ok (right) to eat of every "tree of the garden" but not ok (wrong) to eat of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil." They chose to do what was wrong (according to God) being convinced by the serpent that it was the right thing to do because in doing so they too would be just like God -- deciding what was right and what was wrong. Like I said -- self-determination.

And I would agree that is part of the equation, for sure. But I would ask, is self-determination a bad thing? How can one choose what is right without it?

Judaism teaches that the eating of the tree in and of itself wasn't wrong, God always intended for them to eat AT the PROPER time. What messed things up was that they didn't wait for the proper time and thus were not properly prepared for what was to come.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Abigail

[Larry N Moore]

Judaism teaches that the eating of the tree in and of itself wasn't wrong, God always intended for them to eat AT the PROPER time.

Can you cite (for my consideration) your source for this doctrine? I would be interested in reading how your teachers come up with it.

But I would ask, is self-determination a bad thing? How can one choose what is right without it?

In the case of Adam and Eve it resulted in death. If someone were to tell you if you did such and such that you would die you naturally can choose to do what they warned you against, but is your death a good thing? I imagine to those who love you it wouldn't be.

[Abigail]

Larry, I will see if I can find the source for you, it comes from the oral traditions, which have since been put into written form.

As for death, I guess I would ask death of what, the body? soul? spirit?

Death is sad for those of us who are left behind to mourn. I think it is also sad in the sense that it can often be the loss of potential, in terms of what the person may have gone on to do and accomlish. But death is a temporary thing, the body dies and the soul goes on. In other words, death is sad for the living, but I don't believe it is sad for the dead.