If it is within you to even consider other things they will come.
Like it or not.
Most assuredly my opinion is biased (as is yours). That doesn't make it incorrect even if the majority disagrees with me.
Someone once said: "It's what you learn after you think you've learned it all that really matters the most." Or something like that -- I forget. Anyways, I've learned more (in the last five years) about theology from having discussions with atheists than I probably learned during my tenure in a Biblical Research and Teaching ministry. So, although I appreciate your suggestion, it's one which is ego driven instead of factually based.
cman, you're correct in that the Bible doesn't specifically refer to what happened to Adam as the "Fall." It's a theological term used to describe a condition -- that being -- going from a higher plane of existence to a lower one. From a spiritual plane to a senses one. Thus a fall. It works for me.
I'm not sure what source you rely on to conclude that Adam's transgression "had to happen." Can you cite it?
Interesting explanation, Larry. In Judaism, many would say it wasn't a "fall" from a higher plain to a lower one. In fact, they would say the exact opposite occured and they went from a lower plain to a higher one. How could the "tree of knowledge" i.e. gaining knowledge, bring one to a lower plain of existence?
How could the "tree of knowledge" i.e. gaining knowledge, bring one to a lower plain of existence?
If the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" is what made it possible for Adam & Eve to gain knowledge of what is good and evil then a logical question would be -- "How would it be possible for them to know God was good if they needed to eat from that tree?" One could assume that God would want them to know that He was good otherwise they would probably be indifferent to Him.
For me that tree is symbolic of man taking it upon himself to decide for himself what was good and what was evil even if it contradicted what God said was good and evil thus putting them in the position of being god-like in "knowing" what constitutes good and evil. This sin is akin to what got Lucifer in trouble. He wanted to usurp the "throne" of God. A throne represents authority.
The answer about death for animals comes from, in my understanding, the fact that Adam was given dominion over them. He was assigned the job by Heavenly Father of naming all of them. His and Eves "duty" was to tend the garden and everything in it. To me that has always meant seeing to it that the plants brought forth the right amount of seed and fruit with the right nutritional value etc to provide ample food for the creatures and Adam and Eve who lived there.
Once ousted from the garden, there was no one left to "tend" the plants. It was at that point that animals were left to fend for themselves and it was at that point that some animals, the carnivoires and omnivoires, turned to eating other animals-- probably driven by resulting food shortages. Thus death entered the animal kingdom, thus reproduction became necessary. Thus we come down to the present day.
Animals cannot sin so they are not cutoff from Gods presence --but just as with all sin-- the trangression of Adam and Eve had far reaching consequences.
Second point
Man lacks the omniscience and omnipresence of Heavenly Father. Man therefore lacks the ability to see the future and what the potential result of an action will be.
What a man thinks is good at the time may vary well turn out to be evil. What a man thinks is evil at the time may turn out to be good in the long run.
There is no way Adam or any of his descendents can know the ultimate effects of a decision. As long as man was ignorant of the concept of good and evil--he was not accountable for the results of his actions. We don't expect a four month old baby to understand why they shouldn't throw things--its not part of their knowledge--they don't understand all the things that might happen-- they surely don't understand that some of those things will be "bad".
So, while they were in garden, it was with Adam and Eve---no knowledge of the concept of "good" and the concept of "evil" meant that they were not accountable and God covered any boo boos. Once their eyes were open, once they understood the concepts it was a different story.
Man now had the capacity and the freedom of choice to make decisions that were bad from the onset or would produce bad results, KNOWING that they were bad. Now man was accountable, now evil was a real force on earth not just a concept hitherto held only by God, the Heavenly Host, and Satan and his minions.
Man had gained the potential to become as Gd if he were allowed immortality--There can only be one God--Satan had already caused rebellion and schism. No, man had to become mortal, so as to make any evil done by him finite in its nature.
And why wouldn't this knowledge be accessable to Adam?
Do you honestly think God never taught Adam and Eve anything? Never told them what was good and what was evil?
Why would Adam eat of the tree?
Pride.
This ability to do so was there.
Who put it there and why?
Because God had to create us with the ability to think even though it might mean we think we know better than God concerning what is good and what is evil.
Didn't God come up with the Garden?
Ahh . . . yep.
Why was this tree there?
Probably 'cause God thought a tree would look good in the midst of the Garden. Just joking. ;) As long as the "tree" is taken literally it won't make much sense -- at least to me.
If someone is going to steward the farm for the owner, they must have free will to make the decisions to run it.
Satan was created perfect, he was the steward of all angelic life and whatever was crawling about here on earth.
He chose to eventually disobey and want to rule it all himself.
A free will being must have that choice, else it is an automaton - a robot.
Adam is given dominion in the new earth. Its his. He is in the same position here on earth that Satan was in over the angelic creation.
He had personal communion with God. Take an Einstein, Beethoven and all the other geniuses that have lived and Adam was more. Occassionally you get a DNA combination maybe more similar to what was once and a genius is produced, someone maybe similar mentally to what Adam was. We tend to think of him as just a guy, like us. He was God's creation - unfallen. He was clothed with spirit, or light, or something that made them horrified when they lost it at the fall and tried to clothe themselves with it again. He was much, much more than we are. We are fallen.
But, to steward the earth, he has to have free will. God must give him a choice. I believe Satan appeared to them as a magnificent being in all his glory - they wanted what he had, what they thought God must have hidden from them. They could be as magnificent as he was - they could be like GODS - all they had to do was partake.
Thus, Satan could say, you give me your power, authority and dominion, and I will give you this knowledge which your god is withholding from you. The deal was struck.
That's why I don't know if the "tree" was really a tree and if it was truly something God put in the Garden. Why do I think that? Because the only "tree" that was guarded by cherubim was the tree of life, lest they live forever in their fallen state.
Man had a choice to make, will I follow and obey God and walk with him in his spirit, or will I follow my own knowledge, a knowledge not from God? Does God know better than me, or do I know better than God?
We still make that choice at some point in our lives today.
and it seems to me that God did not consider anything evil
and to eat of the tree of good and evil...was to basically fall asleep and become spiritually unconscious
because prior to nourishing ourselves (eating) on a false system (tree) of duality (good and evil)...EVERYTHING WAS GOOD
God called it all good..which included "the serpent"
in other words...when a snake bites us...and we accuse it of being evil for doing so...one is pretty much asleep to the truth that snakes bite for very good, true and beautiful reasons
good and evil is a relative distinction we make based on the limited perspective of us human animals
ultimately...EVERYTHING is GOOD...always has been..always will be
there is no such thing as ultimate evil...or absolute evil...or complete evil
duality = enmity
nonduality = oneness with God
"to be one with God" is to realize the actual nonduality of the spirit of creation
"naked and unshamed" = the all-inclusive nonduality of truth
...
in other words...stop eating of that darn system of good and evil and wake up!
Well stated, Sir. And yet, for all it's simplicity, it really is a difficult thing to grasp, internalize, and live because it is abstract instead of concrete. The concrete is so much easier to hold on to and make sense of.
It is all good, for so very many reasons. Even when that which we do is "evil" it is not really evil, for God, taking advantage of evil, works it to our good - or something like that. :)
I enjoy esoteric philosophy , enjoy discusiing it-- there is evil and there is good, IMO.
Just becuase God can ameliorate, or bring forth healing , or bring forth good after an evil --in no way negates the existence of evil. In fact it confirms it.
If there were no evil God would never need to act because all would be good.
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cman
Your info is biased and not shared by all Larry.
'falling asleep' means other things to others..
If it is within you to even consider other things they will come.
Like it or not.
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Larry N Moore
Most assuredly my opinion is biased (as is yours). That doesn't make it incorrect even if the majority disagrees with me.
Someone once said: "It's what you learn after you think you've learned it all that really matters the most." Or something like that -- I forget. Anyways, I've learned more (in the last five years) about theology from having discussions with atheists than I probably learned during my tenure in a Biblical Research and Teaching ministry. So, although I appreciate your suggestion, it's one which is ego driven instead of factually based.
Physician -- heal thyself!
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cman
Think what you want to.
Freedom is a wonderful thing when put to good use.
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Larry N Moore
I always do. Don't you? :)
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templelady
Romans 5:12
says that through one mans [Adam] sin death entered the world for all men.
Elsewhere the Bible states "the wages of sin are death"
Animals cannot sin
only man can do that
and man could only sin after eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
Thus was death introduced to the world.
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Larry N Moore
TL, you latest post got me thinking.
If "the wages of sin are death" and animals cannot sin then why do they die? Any thoughts?
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year2027
God first
Beloved templelady
God loves you my dear friend
what animals sin when they do not give men dominion over them
Mankind may stand in place of God for animals
but this is just me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Abigail
Interesting explanation, Larry. In Judaism, many would say it wasn't a "fall" from a higher plain to a lower one. In fact, they would say the exact opposite occured and they went from a lower plain to a higher one. How could the "tree of knowledge" i.e. gaining knowledge, bring one to a lower plain of existence?
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year2027
God first
Beloved Abigail
God loves you my dear friend
I love your new pic
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Larry N Moore
If the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" is what made it possible for Adam & Eve to gain knowledge of what is good and evil then a logical question would be -- "How would it be possible for them to know God was good if they needed to eat from that tree?" One could assume that God would want them to know that He was good otherwise they would probably be indifferent to Him.
For me that tree is symbolic of man taking it upon himself to decide for himself what was good and what was evil even if it contradicted what God said was good and evil thus putting them in the position of being god-like in "knowing" what constitutes good and evil. This sin is akin to what got Lucifer in trouble. He wanted to usurp the "throne" of God. A throne represents authority.
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cman
Wouldn't God know good and evil?
And why wouldn't this knowledge be accessable to Adam?
Why would Adam eat of the tree?
This ability to do so was there.
Who put it there and why?
Didn't God come up with the Garden?
Why was this tree there?
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Danny
Great questions cman.
Some of the answers made new churches.
Some Athiest will come along and say that's why I don't believe
any of it.
Templelady
Thanks for the verse.
But it says death entered the World for all men.
Nothing about animals.
Nothing about reproduction.
I just don't see what you do.
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templelady
First point
The answer about death for animals comes from, in my understanding, the fact that Adam was given dominion over them. He was assigned the job by Heavenly Father of naming all of them. His and Eves "duty" was to tend the garden and everything in it. To me that has always meant seeing to it that the plants brought forth the right amount of seed and fruit with the right nutritional value etc to provide ample food for the creatures and Adam and Eve who lived there.
Once ousted from the garden, there was no one left to "tend" the plants. It was at that point that animals were left to fend for themselves and it was at that point that some animals, the carnivoires and omnivoires, turned to eating other animals-- probably driven by resulting food shortages. Thus death entered the animal kingdom, thus reproduction became necessary. Thus we come down to the present day.
Animals cannot sin so they are not cutoff from Gods presence --but just as with all sin-- the trangression of Adam and Eve had far reaching consequences.
Second point
Man lacks the omniscience and omnipresence of Heavenly Father. Man therefore lacks the ability to see the future and what the potential result of an action will be.
What a man thinks is good at the time may vary well turn out to be evil. What a man thinks is evil at the time may turn out to be good in the long run.
There is no way Adam or any of his descendents can know the ultimate effects of a decision. As long as man was ignorant of the concept of good and evil--he was not accountable for the results of his actions. We don't expect a four month old baby to understand why they shouldn't throw things--its not part of their knowledge--they don't understand all the things that might happen-- they surely don't understand that some of those things will be "bad".
So, while they were in garden, it was with Adam and Eve---no knowledge of the concept of "good" and the concept of "evil" meant that they were not accountable and God covered any boo boos. Once their eyes were open, once they understood the concepts it was a different story.
Man now had the capacity and the freedom of choice to make decisions that were bad from the onset or would produce bad results, KNOWING that they were bad. Now man was accountable, now evil was a real force on earth not just a concept hitherto held only by God, the Heavenly Host, and Satan and his minions.
Man had gained the potential to become as Gd if he were allowed immortality--There can only be one God--Satan had already caused rebellion and schism. No, man had to become mortal, so as to make any evil done by him finite in its nature.
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year2027
God first
Beloved templelady
God loves you my dear friend
I understand what you are saying and it gives me a lot to think about thanks
yes a "reaching consequences"
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Larry N Moore
Do you honestly think God never taught Adam and Eve anything? Never told them what was good and what was evil?
Pride.Because God had to create us with the ability to think even though it might mean we think we know better than God concerning what is good and what is evil.
Ahh . . . yep.Probably 'cause God thought a tree would look good in the midst of the Garden. Just joking. ;) As long as the "tree" is taken literally it won't make much sense -- at least to me.
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cman
noone is taking the tree literally
do you know where the garden is?
the ability to think includes the knowledge of good and evil.
i disagree about pride being the reason
sound spiritual thinking would be my pick
adam never ate of the tree in the poerspective it was eaten then
the tree of life is also the tree of knowledge of good and evil
the intents are what makes a difference
exposing death that day for what it was
though shalt surely die, that day it was known
without death there is no life
without life there is no death
if god knew good and evil then why would he withhold this info
and have it happen the way it did
adam was not complete, our completeness is in the last adam
but without the first the second would be meaningless
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Danny
cman
this is sort of why i'm looking at the first adam
to get to the second.
maybe some great insight into him.
templelady
great response and i almost understand all
of it but
what do with way back in the 5th day when God
said multiply
i don't want to get caught up in what i was taught
for so long
just want to be able to see what He says.
Thanks
Peace
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cman
hey Danny,
Without the knowledge of good and evil.
How would Adam know to eat of the tree of life.
To know what he was eating and why and what to do.
And not use this life for himself alone.
Adam knew he had to know.
This is exactly what happens Now.
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Sunesis
If someone is going to steward the farm for the owner, they must have free will to make the decisions to run it.
Satan was created perfect, he was the steward of all angelic life and whatever was crawling about here on earth.
He chose to eventually disobey and want to rule it all himself.
A free will being must have that choice, else it is an automaton - a robot.
Adam is given dominion in the new earth. Its his. He is in the same position here on earth that Satan was in over the angelic creation.
He had personal communion with God. Take an Einstein, Beethoven and all the other geniuses that have lived and Adam was more. Occassionally you get a DNA combination maybe more similar to what was once and a genius is produced, someone maybe similar mentally to what Adam was. We tend to think of him as just a guy, like us. He was God's creation - unfallen. He was clothed with spirit, or light, or something that made them horrified when they lost it at the fall and tried to clothe themselves with it again. He was much, much more than we are. We are fallen.
But, to steward the earth, he has to have free will. God must give him a choice. I believe Satan appeared to them as a magnificent being in all his glory - they wanted what he had, what they thought God must have hidden from them. They could be as magnificent as he was - they could be like GODS - all they had to do was partake.
Thus, Satan could say, you give me your power, authority and dominion, and I will give you this knowledge which your god is withholding from you. The deal was struck.
That's why I don't know if the "tree" was really a tree and if it was truly something God put in the Garden. Why do I think that? Because the only "tree" that was guarded by cherubim was the tree of life, lest they live forever in their fallen state.
Man had a choice to make, will I follow and obey God and walk with him in his spirit, or will I follow my own knowledge, a knowledge not from God? Does God know better than me, or do I know better than God?
We still make that choice at some point in our lives today.
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templelady
genesis 5 comes AFTER the ouster from the garden.
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sirguessalot
well...im back
and it seems to me that God did not consider anything evil
and to eat of the tree of good and evil...was to basically fall asleep and become spiritually unconscious
because prior to nourishing ourselves (eating) on a false system (tree) of duality (good and evil)...EVERYTHING WAS GOOD
God called it all good..which included "the serpent"
in other words...when a snake bites us...and we accuse it of being evil for doing so...one is pretty much asleep to the truth that snakes bite for very good, true and beautiful reasons
good and evil is a relative distinction we make based on the limited perspective of us human animals
ultimately...EVERYTHING is GOOD...always has been..always will be
there is no such thing as ultimate evil...or absolute evil...or complete evil
duality = enmity
nonduality = oneness with God
"to be one with God" is to realize the actual nonduality of the spirit of creation
"naked and unshamed" = the all-inclusive nonduality of truth
...
in other words...stop eating of that darn system of good and evil and wake up!
sigh
sorry
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Abigail
Well stated, Sir. And yet, for all it's simplicity, it really is a difficult thing to grasp, internalize, and live because it is abstract instead of concrete. The concrete is so much easier to hold on to and make sense of.
It is all good, for so very many reasons. Even when that which we do is "evil" it is not really evil, for God, taking advantage of evil, works it to our good - or something like that. :)
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sirguessalot
i know abi...good to meet you here again, btw
but, and ...we have to start reaching for it so that it does become lived
it has to at least begin as an abstract possibility
even though it is already concrete as the very reality we are soaking wet in
but we wont reach for that which we dont deem as possible
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templelady
I enjoy esoteric philosophy , enjoy discusiing it-- there is evil and there is good, IMO.
Just becuase God can ameliorate, or bring forth healing , or bring forth good after an evil --in no way negates the existence of evil. In fact it confirms it.
If there were no evil God would never need to act because all would be good.
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