Cain a tiller of the ground, the charge to Adam also.
Abel a keeper of sheep-beasts.
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
-spoken to Cain.
Sin-theirs sin in here?
Interesting.
Adam directly did what 'god' said not to do and received both the promises of the god and the serpent.
Knowing good and evil, being as gods, to know what god knows.
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Apparently Abel still has a voice. And it is heard.
Just some observations.
Have some of us tasted of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
Knowledge is dead without works, if it is acted upon it father's results.
Call no man your father-Jesus said.
It's seems that no man fathers what Jesus is talking about.
If the animals were fruitful and multipled beoire the fall there would be the same problem. The planet would soon be over run with mice, birds, snakes, lizards, and mammals. No death means over population.
Like if I walked up to you today and said how's the weather.
Next day say hows the weather sure is hot.
then the next day say How's the weather sure is hot Did you see the duck cooling over at the pond?
If I walked over to you and said how about going over to the wild side?
You would pick up a brick and that would be it.
But after I did all the sales job and said how about stepping out on the wild side
and giving you why it would be good like the duck cooling at the pond.
Good analogy Danny. I suppose it's possible that the serpent spoke to Eve on other occasions. I see nothing in the Bible that disputes that. The short verses written in Genesis concerning the episode doesn't exactly give every detail. If some stranger -- someone or something -- I've never seen before came up to me and started a conversation like the one recorded I would probably be taken a little back. But then, innocence can make you more open to strangers I suppose, also.
The revelation which Adam taught his son Seth in the seven hundreth year, saying:
Chapter 1
1. Listen to my words, my son Seth. When God had created me out of the earth, along with Eve, your mother, I went about with her in a glory which she had seen in the aeon from which we had come forth. She taught me a word of knowledge of the eternal God. And we resembled the great eternal angels, for we were higher than the god who had created us and the powers with him, whom we did not know.
2. Then God, the ruler of the aeons and the powers, divided us in wrath. Then we became two aeons. And the glory in our heart(s) left us, me and your mother Eve, along with the first knowledge that breathed within us. And it (glory) fled from us; it entered into [...] great [...] which had come forth, not from this aeon from which we had come forth, I and Eve your mother. But it (knowledge) entered into the seed of great aeons. For this reason I myself have called you by the name of that man who is the seed of the great generation or from whom (it comes). After those days, the eternal knowledge of the God of truth withdrew from me and your mother Eve. Since that time, we learned about dead things, like men. Then we recognized the God who had created us. For we were not strangers to his powers. And we served him in fear and slavery. And after these things, we became darkened in our heart(s). Now I slept in the thought of my heart.
3. And I saw three men before me whose likeness I was unable to recognize, since they were not the powers of the God who had created us. They surpassed [...] glory, and [...] men [...] saying to me, "Arise, Adam, from the sleep of death, and hear about the aeon and the seed of that man to whom life has come, who came from you and from Eve, your wife."
4. When I had heard these words from the great men who were standing before me, then we sighed, I and Eve, in our heart(s). And the Lord, the God who had created us, stood before us. He said to us, "Adam, why were you (both) sighing in your hearts? Do you not know that I am the God who created you? And I breathed into you a spirit of life as a living soul." Then darkness came upon our eyes.
5. Then the God who created us, created a son from himself and Eve, your mother. I knew sweet desire for your mother, for [...] in the thought of my [...] I knew a sweet desire for your mother. Then the vigor of our eternal knowledge was destroyed in us, and weakness pursued us. Therefore the days of our life became few. For I knew that I had come under the authority of death.
6. Now then, my son Seth, I will reveal to you the things which those men whom I saw before me at first revealed to me: after I have completed the times of this generation and the years of the generation have been accomplished, then [...] slave [...]. (p.68 blank)
7. For rain-showers of God the almighty will be poured forth, so that he might destroy all flesh [of God the almighty, so that he might destroy all flesh] from the earth on account of the things that it seeks after, along with those from the seed of the men to whom passed the life of the knowledge which came from me and Eve, your mother. For they were strangers to him. Afterwards, great angels will come on high clouds, who will bring those men into the place where the spirit of life dwells [...] glory [...] there, [...] come from heaven to earth. Then the whole multitude of flesh will be left behind in the waters.
8. Then God will rest from his wrath. And he will cast his power upon the waters, and he will give power to his sons and their wives by means of the ark along with the animals, whichever he pleased, and the birds of heaven, which he called and released upon the earth. And God will say to Noah - whom the generations will call 'Deucalion' - "Behold, I have protected <you> in the ark, along with your wife and your sons and their wives and their animals and the birds of heaven, which you called and released upon the earth. Therefore I will give the earth to you - you and your sons. In kingly fashion you will rule over it - you and your sons. And no seed will come from you of the men who will not stand in my presence in another glory."
9. Then they will become as the cloud of the great light. Those men will come who have been cast forth from the knowledge of the great aeons and the angels. They will stand before Noah and the aeons. And God will say to Noah, "Why have you departed from what I told you? You have created another generation so that you might scorn my power." Then Noah will say, "I shall testify before your might that the generation of these men did not come from me nor from my sons. [...] knowledge.
10. And he will [...] those men and bring them into their proper land, and build them a holy dwelling place. And they will be called by that name and dwell there six hundred years in a knowledge of imperishability. And the angels of the great Light will dwell with them. No foul deed will dwell in their heart(s), but only the knowledge of God.
11. Then Noah will divide the whole earth among his sons, Ham and Japheth and Shem. He will say to them, "My sons, listen to my words. Behold, I have divided the earth among you. But serve him in fear and slavery all the days of your life. Let not your seed depart from the face of God the Almighty. [...] I and your [...] son of Noah, "My seed will be pleasing before you and before your power. Seal it by your strong hand, with fear and commandment, so that the whole seed which came forth from me may not be inclined away from you and God the Almighty, but it will serve in humility and fear of its knowledge."
12. Then others from the seed of Ham and Japheth will come, four hundred thousand men, and enter into another land and sojourn with those men who came forth from the great eternal knowledge. For the shadow of their power will protect those who have sojourned with them from every evil thing and every unclean desire. Then the seed of Ham and Japheth will form twelve kingdoms, and their seed also will enter into the kingdom of another people.
13. Then [...] will take counsel [...] who are dead, of the great aeons of imperishability. And they will go to Sakla, their God. They will go in to the powers, accusing the great men who are in their glory.
14. They will say to Sakla, "What is the power of these men who stood in your presence, who were taken from the seed of Ham and Japheth, who will number four hundred <thousand> men? They have been received into another aeon from which they had come forth, and they have overturned all the glory of your power and the dominion of your hand. For the seed of Noah through his sons has done all your will, and (so have) all the powers in the aeons over which your might rules, while both those men and the ones who are sojourners in their glory have not done your will. But they have turned (aside) your whole throng."
15. Then the god of the aeons will give them (some) of those who serve him [...]. They will come upon that land where the great men will be who have not been defiled, nor will be defiled, by any desire. For their soul did not come from a defiled hand, but it came from a great commandment of an eternal angel. Then fire and sulphur and asphalt will be cast upon those men, and fire and (blinding) mist will come over those aeons, and the eyes of the powers of the illuminators will be darkened, and the aeons will not see them in those days. And great clouds of light will descend, and other clouds of light will come down upon them from the great aeons.
16. Abrasax and Sablo and Gamaliel will descend and bring those men out of the fire and the wrath, and take them above the aeons and the rulers of the powers, and take them away [...] of life [...] and take them away [...] aeons [...] dwelling place of the great [...] there, with the holy angels and the aeons. The men will be like those angels, for they are not strangers to them. But they work in the imperishable seed.
17. Once again, for the third time, the illuminator of knowledge will pass by in great glory, in order to leave (something) of the seed of Noah and the sons of Ham and Japheth - to leave for himself fruit-bearing trees. And he will redeem their souls from the day of death. For the whole creation that came from the dead earth will be under the authority of death. But those who reflect upon the knowledge of the eternal God in their heart(s) will not perish. For they have not received spirit from this kingdom alone, but they have received (it) from a [...] eternal angel. [...] illuminator [...] will come upon [...] that is dead [...] of Seth. And he will perform signs and wonders in order to scorn the powers and their ruler.
18. Then the god of the powers will be disturbed, saying, "What is the power of this man who is higher than we?" Then he will arouse a great wrath against that man. And the glory will withdraw and dwell in holy houses which it has chosen for itself. And the powers will not see it with their eyes, nor will they see the illuminator either. Then they will punish the flesh of the man upon whom the holy spirit came.
19. Then the angels and all the generations of the powers will use the name in error, asking, "Where did it (the error) come from?" or "Where did the words of deception, which all the powers have failed to discover, come from?"
20. Now the first kingdom says of him that he came from [...]. A spirit [...] to heaven. He was nourished in the heavens. He received the glory of that one and the power. He came to the bosom of his mother. And thus he came to the water.
21. And the second kingdom says about him that he came from a great prophet. And a bird came, took the child who was born, and brought him onto a high mountain. And he was nourished by the bird of heaven. An angel came forth there. He said to him "Arise! God has given glory to you." He received glory and strength. And thus he came to the water.
22. The third kingdom says of him that he came from a virgin womb. He was cast out of his city, he and his mother. He was brought to a desert place. He was nourished there. He came and received glory and strength. And thus he came to the water.
23. The fourth kingdom says of him that he came from a virgin. [...] Solomon sought her, he and Phersalo and Sauel and his armies, which had been sent out. Solomon himself sent his army of demons to seek out the virgin. And they did not find the one whom they sought, but the virgin who was given them. It was she whom they fetched. Solomon took her. The virgin became pregnant and gave birth to the child there. She nourished him on a border of the desert. When he had been nourished, he received glory and power from the seed from which he was begotten. And thus he came to the water.
24. And the fifth kingdom says of him that he came from a drop from heaven. He was thrown into the sea. The abyss received him, gave birth to him, and brought him to heaven. He received glory and power. And thus he came to the water.
25. And the sixth kingdom says that [...] down to the aeon which is below, in order to gather flowers. She became pregnant from the desire of the flowers. She gave birth to him in that place. The angels of the flower garden nourished him. He received glory there, and power. And thus he came to the water.
26. And the seventh kingdom says of him that he is a drop. It came from heaven to earth. Dragons brought him down to caves. He became a child. A spirit came upon him and brought him on high to the place where the drop had come forth. He received glory and power there. And thus he came to the water.
27. And the eighth kingdom says of him that a cloud came upon the earth and enveloped a rock. He came from it. The angels who were above the cloud nourished him. He received glory and power there. And thus he came to the water.
28. And the ninth kingdom says of him that from the nine Muses one separated away. She came to a high mountain and spent (some) time seated there, so that she desired herself alone in order to become androgynous. She fulfilled her desire and became pregnant from her desire. He was born. The angels who were over the desire nourished him. And he received glory there, and power. And thus he came to the water.
29. The tenth kingdom says of him that his god loved a cloud of desire. He begot him in his hand and cast upon the cloud above him (some) of the drop, and he was born. He received glory and power there. And thus he came to the water.
30. And the eleventh kingdom says that the father desired his own daughter. She herself became pregnant from her father. She cast [...] tomb out in the desert. The angel nourished him there. And thus he came to the water.
31. The twelfth kingdom says of him that he came from two illuminators. He was nourished there. He received glory and power. And thus he came to the water.
32. And the thirteenth kingdom says of him that every birth of their ruler is a word. And this word received a mandate there. He received glory and power. And thus he came to the water, in order that the desire of those powers might be satisfied.
33. But the generation without a king over it says that God chose him from all the aeons. He caused a knowledge of the undefiled one of truth to come to be in him. He said, "Out of a foreign air, from a great aeon, the great illuminator came forth. And he made the generation of those men whom he had chosen for himself shine, so that they could shine upon the whole aeon"
34. Then the seed, those who will receive his name upon the water and (that) of them all, will fight against the power. And a cloud of darkness will come upon them.
35. Then the peoples will cry out with a great voice, saying, "Blessed is the soul of those men because they have known God with a knowledge of the truth! They shall live forever, because they have not been corrupted by their desire, along with the angels, nor have they accomplished the works of the powers, but they have stood in his presence in a knowledge of God like light that has come forth from fire and blood.
36. "But we have done every deed of the powers senselessly. We have boasted in the transgression of all our works. We have cried against the God of truth because all his works [...] is eternal. These are against our spirits. For now we have known that our souls will die the death."
37. Then a voice came to them, saying "Micheu and Michar and Mnesinous, who are over the holy baptism and the living water, why were you crying out against the living God with lawless voices and tongues without law over them, and souls full of blood and foul deeds? You are full of works that are not of the truth, but your ways are full of joy and rejoicing. Having defiled the water of life, you have drawn it within the will of the powers to whom you have been given to serve them.
38. "And your thought is not like that of those men whom you persecute [...] desire [...]. Their fruit does not wither. But they will be known up to the great aeons, because the words they have kept, of the God of the aeons, were not committed to the book, nor were they written. But angelic (beings) will bring them, whom all the generations of men will not know. For they will be on a high mountain, upon a rock of truth. Therefore they will be named "The Words of Imperishability and Truth," for those who know the eternal God in wisdom of knowledge and teaching of angels forever, for he knows all things."
39. These are the revelations which Adam made known to Seth, his son, And his son taught his seed about them. This is the hidden knowledge of Adam, which he gave to Seth, which is the holy baptism of those who know the eternal knowledge through those born of the word and the imperishable illuminators, who came from the holy seed: Yesseus, Mazareus, Yessedekeus, the Living Water.
I Adam greet you with love for the one who created me in the waters to be birthed from the waters after I grow old enough to be born into this world God set up for me to rule as the first son of his great love.
From me he God formed Eve to be the mother of all that were to be called mankind but in the beginning we were children in his glory of love the image of God that gave us life.
Like young children we believe that we knew more than he who formed us from the dust but we were wrong as children that get in trouble were they can not handle so did we.
A great wild beast of the field of open waters of the deep bite us like a snake bites that which he is afraid of to be on his way.
The bite was the bite of sin and our natural white blood cells went to the bite to fight the germs that attacked the body.
That is why I looked forward for John the Baptist to come and wash the bite cleaning it so Jesus Christ could come and cleansed it with fire sealing the snake bite so no more germs could enter to destroy my life.
This who God told me would come to get me back in the grace of God’s love that which is and was to get me out of the trouble of sin I got in by my foolish running head long into pride of self against the loving guiding hand of God who gave me life.
I gave myself pain and death but God sent one to give me healing and life after life I just had to wait until the promise was for filled.
Once me and Eve left the loving covering of God’s garden were God prepared everything for us to live with the ease of love we had to begin to labor hard just to find water and anything to eat.
The animals that we love fought against us because we no longer had food to reward them with so we had to hide from them at night in a cave.
We look for a way to get God’s forgiveness but while God was willing to forgive us we had went to far and it would take a new creation of life to come.
We begin looking for that son in our first son who rebel against our God because he could not see God but our second son walk in love like our God did doing as we taught him.
We went to our two sons and said we need to give thanks to the God who has blessed us with you.
The first son laugh at us and said I will give him these weeds that grow in my garden but the second son said I will give him my fates lamb to bless him for all he God gave us.
Adam told his second son Abel he could pick a wife to have children of his own because he has honored the God that gave us life but the first son Cain got mad.
Cain I am older I will pick the first wife but Adam gave Abel his pick so Cain took a rock and killed Abel then ran away with Abel wife by taking her away to rule has his own.
Adam said to Cain were is their brother for our God has heard Abel crying has his blood went into the earth.
This is your punishment which God has set over you Cain told Adam that is to hard tell your God how about this.
Adam went to God has what do because Cain was stronger than Adam so God as Cain said so be his punishment but keep your people away from Cain dwelling for ever more or I may have to destroy all mankind .
I Adam had another son who I named Seth and I taught him all that God taught me and he save gifts unto God of both his garden the purest wheat and his lambs of one year old.
I Adam had many other children who Seth rule as king teaching them to stay away from the kingdom of Cain until I die a happy old men.
If the animals were fruitful and multipled beoire the fall there would be the same problem. The planet would soon be over run with mice, birds, snakes, lizards, and mammals. No death means over population.
I'd like to think God would've had a plan for that scenario, like He did for our redemption.
I'd like to think God would've had a plan for that scenario, like He did for our redemption.
He did have a plan--- noo death means no need for reproduction. It was through Adam that death was brought into the world. Not just for man but for every living thing.
There is this "urban myth" that circulates in the back of many Christian brains that runs....
If Adam and Eve hadn't "sinned" we would all be living in bliss in theGarden of Eden.
It just doesn't work that way--
No fall=
No death=
no need for reporduction=
no us
Adam and Eve had it pretty good surrounded in a garden with every type of plantlife on earth and every animal on earth- no worries, no cares. But after 1 or 2 or 3 hundred years I wonder how that life would have been? Would it still have been wonderful--or just a boring routine of never varying exactitude.
He did have a plan--- noo death means no need for reproduction. It was through Adam that death was brought into the world. Not just for man but for every living thing.
There is this "urban myth" that circulates in the back of many Christian brains that runs....
If Adam and Eve hadn't "sinned" we would all be living in bliss in theGarden of Eden.
It just doesn't work that way--
No fall=
No death=
no need for reporduction=
no us
Adam and Eve had it pretty good surrounded in a garden with every type of plantlife on earth and every animal on earth- no worries, no cares. But after 1 or 2 or 3 hundred years I wonder how that life would have been? Would it still have been wonderful--or just a boring routine of never varying exactitude.
TL that's a very good point. For many years I thought that if Adam didn't sin there would be no us. Part of my thinking on this comes from Genesis 2:18 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." It seems to me that originally the whole point of Eve being created was to fulfill a need that Adam had -- companionship. With the "Fall" man's (Adam) need shifted towards redemption and since Adam was unable to redeem himself (due to his choice) it became necessary that Adam and Eve reproduced. Companionship is still the primary reason for two becoming one and many couples can live very happily without children entering the arrangement.
Judaism teaches it was ALWAYS God plan for Adam and Eve to eat. Where they screwed up was in eating of it too soon - before the sabbath, before they were properly prepared.
Judaism also teaches the eating of it was akin to an evolution, it turned them from 'animals' who operated on instinct alone to human beings who could think logically, emotionally, etc. - more or less what we are today.
I agree, they were always going to be fruitful and multiply, that was always the plan.
Eve sitting around naked what you think what happen to old
Adam yea he said wow I want some of that.
god would of had to come back and re invent the wheel after the
the fall to put all those things in place.
And I'm sure old eve said I want some of that to.
It's something that was imprinted in us before we were born.
Sex drive.
Nothing wrong with it if you do it right.
Danny, I don't think anyone would disagree that Adam & Eve had a sexual relationship prior to the "Fall." The question is whether they reproduced. Now, I'm no authority on this but, I've heard it said that some foods are able to prohibit pregnancy from occurring. If that's true -- and God would obviously know this -- then perhaps Adam and Eve incorporated this type of food in their diets. Afterall -- there are records in the Bible saying what God recommended and disallowed for consumption. Most of the time the medical reasoning behind refraining from eating certain foods was never given. God knew and man obeyed and that usually is sufficient.
for what its worth ....i think you guys might get more out of the book if you started to see Adam and Eve as very important multi-layered archetypes and principles in a creation myth
...rather than an account of 2 specific people
for me, this approach has made Genesis more valid and valuable then it was before
also, i think it will help if we start finding a way to come to terms with the ethnocentric (i.e. racial) boundaries of the book
and maybe we will appreciate the depth and beauty of jewish thought even more
and no...i am not talking about merely knowing one's way around concordances and lexicons
...but perhaps finally understanding that much broader range of attitudes around story and scripture and religion and ritual, in general
and no..this is not the same as legalism and a return to law...but a more genuine appreciation of the arts and literature and practices that actually exists on the topic
...and yes, there is a lot ...which is as much good news as it is bad news, of course
but i think we have gone way too far in our estimation of what we think we can know from way too little information
...and this is causing a lot of trouble and confusion in our world...and in our lives
and...i know it might be a stretch for many...but i sincerely implore you all to stretch your wings a bit on these ideas
not sure how else to say it
but so as not to kill the thread...and the whole doctrinal section
i will take my leave unless i am called to the carpet for my words
There is not any scripture that says it was a fall.
It is a doctrine of men.
The transgression of Adam had to happen.
As well as what Eve did.
Jesus didn't do what he did because of Adam but for us ALL.
As well As what Adam did in giving his life for life.
Without all subject to what Adam did.
No one would be subject to what the last Adam did.
cman, you're correct in that the Bible doesn't specifically refer to what happened to Adam as the "Fall." It's a theological term used to describe a condition -- that being -- going from a higher plane of existence to a lower one. From a spiritual plane to a senses one. Thus a fall. It works for me.
I'm not sure what source you rely on to conclude that Adam's transgression "had to happen." Can you cite it?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
21
26
22
44
Popular Days
Jul 12
34
Jul 11
29
Jul 18
23
Jul 19
16
Top Posters In This Topic
Abigail 21 posts
Danny 26 posts
cman 22 posts
Larry N Moore 44 posts
Popular Days
Jul 12 2007
34 posts
Jul 11 2007
29 posts
Jul 18 2007
23 posts
Jul 19 2007
16 posts
cman
hmmm....
Cain a tiller of the ground, the charge to Adam also.
Abel a keeper of sheep-beasts.
-spoken to Cain.Sin-theirs sin in here?
Interesting.
Adam directly did what 'god' said not to do and received both the promises of the god and the serpent.
Knowing good and evil, being as gods, to know what god knows.
Apparently Abel still has a voice. And it is heard.
Just some observations.
Have some of us tasted of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
Knowledge is dead without works, if it is acted upon it father's results.
Call no man your father-Jesus said.
It's seems that no man fathers what Jesus is talking about.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
This has gone fast lot to handle.
Forgive me if I don't reply to every thing.
great stuff.
Gen 1:28 Telling them to multiply.
Before the fall.
Does't ever say how long it was when the fall happened.
What else you got to do. Yes they were mortal. But why not do what God said?
I personally think they started multiplying.
Gen 4:1 never says first born. But sort of indicating he might be the savior.
Gen 5:1 list the generation of Adam No Cain or Abel So why not other kids?
Other places in Gen. in other couples not everyone named and sometimes first born.
Gen. 4:8 Cain killed him never said it was the first killing
Why would Cain say Gen.4:14 that everyone will kill me.
Because it 's something that happened more than once or first time.
As far as Satan talking to Eve
Like if I walked up to you today and said how's the weather.
Next day say hows the weather sure is hot.
then the next day say How's the weather sure is hot Did you see the duck cooling over at the pond?
If I walked over to you and said how about going over to the wild side?
You would pick up a brick and that would be it.
But after I did all the sales job and said how about stepping out on the wild side
and giving you why it would be good like the duck cooling at the pond.
I really think I have to get out of the box sometimes.
The power of suggestion. If my group says Adam was black i would start reading into what it
tells me. find a reason why he might be black or just not even look and know he is black.
We have been told So many wrong thinks. Looking through others eyes is good.
Thanks Will post and think a little
Edited by DannyLink to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
If the animals were fruitful and multipled beoire the fall there would be the same problem. The planet would soon be over run with mice, birds, snakes, lizards, and mammals. No death means over population.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Where does it say no death.
God said have dominion over them. How about some steak tonight Eve.
Well they had to kill something to have the steak.
TL
Take this in the right light You give some of the
most insightful post sometimes but you just have to show me for me to understand.
Or we have to just take all that we were told and lot of it is wrong.
TL sure had to have death Whales eat tons of creel to live.
Sort of like the lion king the circle of life.
Big cats eat little animals. they die.
All kind of creatures have to eat something?
What did the mice birds and all eat?
Something died for them to eat.
The power of suggestion sometimes is over powering for us to move beyond.
If we look at it in a different light maybe new understanding.
Logic is blocked because we saw it one way when it is clear another way.
I never read the bible till I was 17.
And for a Dr. to tell me it's like this . Religion
I have to let that go and see it for what it is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
Good analogy Danny. I suppose it's possible that the serpent spoke to Eve on other occasions. I see nothing in the Bible that disputes that. The short verses written in Genesis concerning the episode doesn't exactly give every detail. If some stranger -- someone or something -- I've never seen before came up to me and started a conversation like the one recorded I would probably be taken a little back. But then, innocence can make you more open to strangers I suppose, also.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God first
Beloved friends
Here a book that said to be wrote from Adam words to Seth maybe you will like it maybe not
compare it to Genesis
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Gnostic Society Library
The Nag Hammadi Library
The Apocalypse of Adam
Translated by George W. MacRae
Preface
The revelation which Adam taught his son Seth in the seven hundreth year, saying:
Chapter 1
1. Listen to my words, my son Seth. When God had created me out of the earth, along with Eve, your mother, I went about with her in a glory which she had seen in the aeon from which we had come forth. She taught me a word of knowledge of the eternal God. And we resembled the great eternal angels, for we were higher than the god who had created us and the powers with him, whom we did not know.
2. Then God, the ruler of the aeons and the powers, divided us in wrath. Then we became two aeons. And the glory in our heart(s) left us, me and your mother Eve, along with the first knowledge that breathed within us. And it (glory) fled from us; it entered into [...] great [...] which had come forth, not from this aeon from which we had come forth, I and Eve your mother. But it (knowledge) entered into the seed of great aeons. For this reason I myself have called you by the name of that man who is the seed of the great generation or from whom (it comes). After those days, the eternal knowledge of the God of truth withdrew from me and your mother Eve. Since that time, we learned about dead things, like men. Then we recognized the God who had created us. For we were not strangers to his powers. And we served him in fear and slavery. And after these things, we became darkened in our heart(s). Now I slept in the thought of my heart.
3. And I saw three men before me whose likeness I was unable to recognize, since they were not the powers of the God who had created us. They surpassed [...] glory, and [...] men [...] saying to me, "Arise, Adam, from the sleep of death, and hear about the aeon and the seed of that man to whom life has come, who came from you and from Eve, your wife."
4. When I had heard these words from the great men who were standing before me, then we sighed, I and Eve, in our heart(s). And the Lord, the God who had created us, stood before us. He said to us, "Adam, why were you (both) sighing in your hearts? Do you not know that I am the God who created you? And I breathed into you a spirit of life as a living soul." Then darkness came upon our eyes.
5. Then the God who created us, created a son from himself and Eve, your mother. I knew sweet desire for your mother, for [...] in the thought of my [...] I knew a sweet desire for your mother. Then the vigor of our eternal knowledge was destroyed in us, and weakness pursued us. Therefore the days of our life became few. For I knew that I had come under the authority of death.
6. Now then, my son Seth, I will reveal to you the things which those men whom I saw before me at first revealed to me: after I have completed the times of this generation and the years of the generation have been accomplished, then [...] slave [...]. (p.68 blank)
7. For rain-showers of God the almighty will be poured forth, so that he might destroy all flesh [of God the almighty, so that he might destroy all flesh] from the earth on account of the things that it seeks after, along with those from the seed of the men to whom passed the life of the knowledge which came from me and Eve, your mother. For they were strangers to him. Afterwards, great angels will come on high clouds, who will bring those men into the place where the spirit of life dwells [...] glory [...] there, [...] come from heaven to earth. Then the whole multitude of flesh will be left behind in the waters.
8. Then God will rest from his wrath. And he will cast his power upon the waters, and he will give power to his sons and their wives by means of the ark along with the animals, whichever he pleased, and the birds of heaven, which he called and released upon the earth. And God will say to Noah - whom the generations will call 'Deucalion' - "Behold, I have protected <you> in the ark, along with your wife and your sons and their wives and their animals and the birds of heaven, which you called and released upon the earth. Therefore I will give the earth to you - you and your sons. In kingly fashion you will rule over it - you and your sons. And no seed will come from you of the men who will not stand in my presence in another glory."
9. Then they will become as the cloud of the great light. Those men will come who have been cast forth from the knowledge of the great aeons and the angels. They will stand before Noah and the aeons. And God will say to Noah, "Why have you departed from what I told you? You have created another generation so that you might scorn my power." Then Noah will say, "I shall testify before your might that the generation of these men did not come from me nor from my sons. [...] knowledge.
10. And he will [...] those men and bring them into their proper land, and build them a holy dwelling place. And they will be called by that name and dwell there six hundred years in a knowledge of imperishability. And the angels of the great Light will dwell with them. No foul deed will dwell in their heart(s), but only the knowledge of God.
11. Then Noah will divide the whole earth among his sons, Ham and Japheth and Shem. He will say to them, "My sons, listen to my words. Behold, I have divided the earth among you. But serve him in fear and slavery all the days of your life. Let not your seed depart from the face of God the Almighty. [...] I and your [...] son of Noah, "My seed will be pleasing before you and before your power. Seal it by your strong hand, with fear and commandment, so that the whole seed which came forth from me may not be inclined away from you and God the Almighty, but it will serve in humility and fear of its knowledge."
12. Then others from the seed of Ham and Japheth will come, four hundred thousand men, and enter into another land and sojourn with those men who came forth from the great eternal knowledge. For the shadow of their power will protect those who have sojourned with them from every evil thing and every unclean desire. Then the seed of Ham and Japheth will form twelve kingdoms, and their seed also will enter into the kingdom of another people.
13. Then [...] will take counsel [...] who are dead, of the great aeons of imperishability. And they will go to Sakla, their God. They will go in to the powers, accusing the great men who are in their glory.
14. They will say to Sakla, "What is the power of these men who stood in your presence, who were taken from the seed of Ham and Japheth, who will number four hundred <thousand> men? They have been received into another aeon from which they had come forth, and they have overturned all the glory of your power and the dominion of your hand. For the seed of Noah through his sons has done all your will, and (so have) all the powers in the aeons over which your might rules, while both those men and the ones who are sojourners in their glory have not done your will. But they have turned (aside) your whole throng."
15. Then the god of the aeons will give them (some) of those who serve him [...]. They will come upon that land where the great men will be who have not been defiled, nor will be defiled, by any desire. For their soul did not come from a defiled hand, but it came from a great commandment of an eternal angel. Then fire and sulphur and asphalt will be cast upon those men, and fire and (blinding) mist will come over those aeons, and the eyes of the powers of the illuminators will be darkened, and the aeons will not see them in those days. And great clouds of light will descend, and other clouds of light will come down upon them from the great aeons.
16. Abrasax and Sablo and Gamaliel will descend and bring those men out of the fire and the wrath, and take them above the aeons and the rulers of the powers, and take them away [...] of life [...] and take them away [...] aeons [...] dwelling place of the great [...] there, with the holy angels and the aeons. The men will be like those angels, for they are not strangers to them. But they work in the imperishable seed.
17. Once again, for the third time, the illuminator of knowledge will pass by in great glory, in order to leave (something) of the seed of Noah and the sons of Ham and Japheth - to leave for himself fruit-bearing trees. And he will redeem their souls from the day of death. For the whole creation that came from the dead earth will be under the authority of death. But those who reflect upon the knowledge of the eternal God in their heart(s) will not perish. For they have not received spirit from this kingdom alone, but they have received (it) from a [...] eternal angel. [...] illuminator [...] will come upon [...] that is dead [...] of Seth. And he will perform signs and wonders in order to scorn the powers and their ruler.
18. Then the god of the powers will be disturbed, saying, "What is the power of this man who is higher than we?" Then he will arouse a great wrath against that man. And the glory will withdraw and dwell in holy houses which it has chosen for itself. And the powers will not see it with their eyes, nor will they see the illuminator either. Then they will punish the flesh of the man upon whom the holy spirit came.
19. Then the angels and all the generations of the powers will use the name in error, asking, "Where did it (the error) come from?" or "Where did the words of deception, which all the powers have failed to discover, come from?"
20. Now the first kingdom says of him that he came from [...]. A spirit [...] to heaven. He was nourished in the heavens. He received the glory of that one and the power. He came to the bosom of his mother. And thus he came to the water.
21. And the second kingdom says about him that he came from a great prophet. And a bird came, took the child who was born, and brought him onto a high mountain. And he was nourished by the bird of heaven. An angel came forth there. He said to him "Arise! God has given glory to you." He received glory and strength. And thus he came to the water.
22. The third kingdom says of him that he came from a virgin womb. He was cast out of his city, he and his mother. He was brought to a desert place. He was nourished there. He came and received glory and strength. And thus he came to the water.
23. The fourth kingdom says of him that he came from a virgin. [...] Solomon sought her, he and Phersalo and Sauel and his armies, which had been sent out. Solomon himself sent his army of demons to seek out the virgin. And they did not find the one whom they sought, but the virgin who was given them. It was she whom they fetched. Solomon took her. The virgin became pregnant and gave birth to the child there. She nourished him on a border of the desert. When he had been nourished, he received glory and power from the seed from which he was begotten. And thus he came to the water.
24. And the fifth kingdom says of him that he came from a drop from heaven. He was thrown into the sea. The abyss received him, gave birth to him, and brought him to heaven. He received glory and power. And thus he came to the water.
25. And the sixth kingdom says that [...] down to the aeon which is below, in order to gather flowers. She became pregnant from the desire of the flowers. She gave birth to him in that place. The angels of the flower garden nourished him. He received glory there, and power. And thus he came to the water.
26. And the seventh kingdom says of him that he is a drop. It came from heaven to earth. Dragons brought him down to caves. He became a child. A spirit came upon him and brought him on high to the place where the drop had come forth. He received glory and power there. And thus he came to the water.
27. And the eighth kingdom says of him that a cloud came upon the earth and enveloped a rock. He came from it. The angels who were above the cloud nourished him. He received glory and power there. And thus he came to the water.
28. And the ninth kingdom says of him that from the nine Muses one separated away. She came to a high mountain and spent (some) time seated there, so that she desired herself alone in order to become androgynous. She fulfilled her desire and became pregnant from her desire. He was born. The angels who were over the desire nourished him. And he received glory there, and power. And thus he came to the water.
29. The tenth kingdom says of him that his god loved a cloud of desire. He begot him in his hand and cast upon the cloud above him (some) of the drop, and he was born. He received glory and power there. And thus he came to the water.
30. And the eleventh kingdom says that the father desired his own daughter. She herself became pregnant from her father. She cast [...] tomb out in the desert. The angel nourished him there. And thus he came to the water.
31. The twelfth kingdom says of him that he came from two illuminators. He was nourished there. He received glory and power. And thus he came to the water.
32. And the thirteenth kingdom says of him that every birth of their ruler is a word. And this word received a mandate there. He received glory and power. And thus he came to the water, in order that the desire of those powers might be satisfied.
33. But the generation without a king over it says that God chose him from all the aeons. He caused a knowledge of the undefiled one of truth to come to be in him. He said, "Out of a foreign air, from a great aeon, the great illuminator came forth. And he made the generation of those men whom he had chosen for himself shine, so that they could shine upon the whole aeon"
34. Then the seed, those who will receive his name upon the water and (that) of them all, will fight against the power. And a cloud of darkness will come upon them.
35. Then the peoples will cry out with a great voice, saying, "Blessed is the soul of those men because they have known God with a knowledge of the truth! They shall live forever, because they have not been corrupted by their desire, along with the angels, nor have they accomplished the works of the powers, but they have stood in his presence in a knowledge of God like light that has come forth from fire and blood.
36. "But we have done every deed of the powers senselessly. We have boasted in the transgression of all our works. We have cried against the God of truth because all his works [...] is eternal. These are against our spirits. For now we have known that our souls will die the death."
37. Then a voice came to them, saying "Micheu and Michar and Mnesinous, who are over the holy baptism and the living water, why were you crying out against the living God with lawless voices and tongues without law over them, and souls full of blood and foul deeds? You are full of works that are not of the truth, but your ways are full of joy and rejoicing. Having defiled the water of life, you have drawn it within the will of the powers to whom you have been given to serve them.
38. "And your thought is not like that of those men whom you persecute [...] desire [...]. Their fruit does not wither. But they will be known up to the great aeons, because the words they have kept, of the God of the aeons, were not committed to the book, nor were they written. But angelic (beings) will bring them, whom all the generations of men will not know. For they will be on a high mountain, upon a rock of truth. Therefore they will be named "The Words of Imperishability and Truth," for those who know the eternal God in wisdom of knowledge and teaching of angels forever, for he knows all things."
39. These are the revelations which Adam made known to Seth, his son, And his son taught his seed about them. This is the hidden knowledge of Adam, which he gave to Seth, which is the holy baptism of those who know the eternal knowledge through those born of the word and the imperishable illuminators, who came from the holy seed: Yesseus, Mazareus, Yessedekeus, the Living Water.
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Link to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God first
Book of Adam
07-12-2007
I Adam greet you with love for the one who created me in the waters to be birthed from the waters after I grow old enough to be born into this world God set up for me to rule as the first son of his great love.
From me he God formed Eve to be the mother of all that were to be called mankind but in the beginning we were children in his glory of love the image of God that gave us life.
Like young children we believe that we knew more than he who formed us from the dust but we were wrong as children that get in trouble were they can not handle so did we.
A great wild beast of the field of open waters of the deep bite us like a snake bites that which he is afraid of to be on his way.
The bite was the bite of sin and our natural white blood cells went to the bite to fight the germs that attacked the body.
That is why I looked forward for John the Baptist to come and wash the bite cleaning it so Jesus Christ could come and cleansed it with fire sealing the snake bite so no more germs could enter to destroy my life.
This who God told me would come to get me back in the grace of God’s love that which is and was to get me out of the trouble of sin I got in by my foolish running head long into pride of self against the loving guiding hand of God who gave me life.
I gave myself pain and death but God sent one to give me healing and life after life I just had to wait until the promise was for filled.
Once me and Eve left the loving covering of God’s garden were God prepared everything for us to live with the ease of love we had to begin to labor hard just to find water and anything to eat.
The animals that we love fought against us because we no longer had food to reward them with so we had to hide from them at night in a cave.
We look for a way to get God’s forgiveness but while God was willing to forgive us we had went to far and it would take a new creation of life to come.
We begin looking for that son in our first son who rebel against our God because he could not see God but our second son walk in love like our God did doing as we taught him.
We went to our two sons and said we need to give thanks to the God who has blessed us with you.
The first son laugh at us and said I will give him these weeds that grow in my garden but the second son said I will give him my fates lamb to bless him for all he God gave us.
Adam told his second son Abel he could pick a wife to have children of his own because he has honored the God that gave us life but the first son Cain got mad.
Cain I am older I will pick the first wife but Adam gave Abel his pick so Cain took a rock and killed Abel then ran away with Abel wife by taking her away to rule has his own.
Adam said to Cain were is their brother for our God has heard Abel crying has his blood went into the earth.
This is your punishment which God has set over you Cain told Adam that is to hard tell your God how about this.
Adam went to God has what do because Cain was stronger than Adam so God as Cain said so be his punishment but keep your people away from Cain dwelling for ever more or I may have to destroy all mankind .
I Adam had another son who I named Seth and I taught him all that God taught me and he save gifts unto God of both his garden the purest wheat and his lambs of one year old.
I Adam had many other children who Seth rule as king teaching them to stay away from the kingdom of Cain until I die a happy old men.
Thank you for reading
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Thanks all.
If you take just a few more storys away I think it was Lot and the angels
came by they looked like men. He invited them in every thing was cool.
The crazys in the town wanted to have sex with them.
I'm would think if a snake came by and started talking Eve would of said you won't believe this
Adam I was sittting over there and the funniest thing you ever saw this snake said came eat.
All we know is he was subtle and if we take other accounts of angels maybe you got something.
That song Angels in blue jeans.
I have met some pretty crafty salesmen.
hey want to take this class that will make you rich(More Abundant) and have singing(harmony)
in your home.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I'd like to think God would've had a plan for that scenario, like He did for our redemption.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
He did have a plan--- noo death means no need for reproduction. It was through Adam that death was brought into the world. Not just for man but for every living thing.
There is this "urban myth" that circulates in the back of many Christian brains that runs....
If Adam and Eve hadn't "sinned" we would all be living in bliss in theGarden of Eden.
It just doesn't work that way--
No fall=
No death=
no need for reporduction=
no us
Adam and Eve had it pretty good surrounded in a garden with every type of plantlife on earth and every animal on earth- no worries, no cares. But after 1 or 2 or 3 hundred years I wonder how that life would have been? Would it still have been wonderful--or just a boring routine of never varying exactitude.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Templelady
This is not a call you on the carpet kind of deal but where
in the world did come up with that.
Man was born with reproductive organs.
What did you think old Adam and Eve did.
God gave us sex nothing wrong with it.
In Chapter one way before the fall he said multiply.
I would love to believe you just show me.
I can't see any of that you are saying.
Where does it say no death.
If they ate only plants there would be death to the plants.
Its ok for animals to do what they do God said do it.
Just show me.
One day the are shooting blanks next day they aren't
Hey honey you won't believe this I'm pregnat.
Wow how did that happened.
Like was she on the pill.
Why is there no room for multiply like he said.
What did the whale eat in the meantime.
Creel just like they do now Tons of it.
The creel die.
What did the trees and plants live on.
I no how hard it is to leave what you have been taught
or what was put in you head.
The power of suggestion.
Look if I'm wrong I will say upfront I'm not that smart
and can and will change show me so I can understand.
Edited by DannyLink to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
God did have a plan.
When Cain said oh they will kill me.
he knew what it was cause it happened before he killed
Able.
A few verses latter he builds a city for his son.
Why a city?
If there was just one son he would build a house
not a city.
Lot of people by then.
Only nine months a new person.
Just plain math you can get 1 million very quickly.
No us.
It says he knew us before the foundations of the world.
I can get the verse if I need.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
TL that's a very good point. For many years I thought that if Adam didn't sin there would be no us. Part of my thinking on this comes from Genesis 2:18 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." It seems to me that originally the whole point of Eve being created was to fulfill a need that Adam had -- companionship. With the "Fall" man's (Adam) need shifted towards redemption and since Adam was unable to redeem himself (due to his choice) it became necessary that Adam and Eve reproduced. Companionship is still the primary reason for two becoming one and many couples can live very happily without children entering the arrangement.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Just help me out.
That taught patter runs counter what is written in bible.
Where is the verses.
Don't eat or you will die.
Well he lived another 800 years it says.
So help me understand.
Please
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
Sorry Danny but, if you're addressing me I must confess I'm not sure what you're asking of me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Another thing on the sex thing I'm
not a pervert or something,or at least I
think I'm not
You see nice looking breast and you say wow.
Eve sitting around naked what you think what happen to old
Adam yea he said wow I want some of that.
god would of had to come back and re invent the wheel after the
the fall to put all those things in place.
And I'm sure old eve said I want some of that to.
It's something that was imprinted in us before we were born.
Sex drive.
Nothing wrong with it if you do it right.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Danny,
Judaism teaches it was ALWAYS God plan for Adam and Eve to eat. Where they screwed up was in eating of it too soon - before the sabbath, before they were properly prepared.
Judaism also teaches the eating of it was akin to an evolution, it turned them from 'animals' who operated on instinct alone to human beings who could think logically, emotionally, etc. - more or less what we are today.
I agree, they were always going to be fruitful and multiply, that was always the plan.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Gen 1:28
Then-man
Be fruitful and multiply
Then some more days other things happen
and the fall
Does it ever say 1 day 1 year 100 years
Abi would love to read some of that stuff.
thanks all peace
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
Danny, I don't think anyone would disagree that Adam & Eve had a sexual relationship prior to the "Fall." The question is whether they reproduced. Now, I'm no authority on this but, I've heard it said that some foods are able to prohibit pregnancy from occurring. If that's true -- and God would obviously know this -- then perhaps Adam and Eve incorporated this type of food in their diets. Afterall -- there are records in the Bible saying what God recommended and disallowed for consumption. Most of the time the medical reasoning behind refraining from eating certain foods was never given. God knew and man obeyed and that usually is sufficient.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
There was no 'fall' of Adam or anyone.
Only progression.
There is not any scripture that says it was a fall.
It is a doctrine of men.
The transgression of Adam had to happen.
As well as what Eve did.
Jesus didn't do what he did because of Adam but for us ALL.
As well As what Adam did in giving his life for life.
Without all subject to what Adam did.
No one would be subject to what the last Adam did.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
for what its worth ....i think you guys might get more out of the book if you started to see Adam and Eve as very important multi-layered archetypes and principles in a creation myth
...rather than an account of 2 specific people
for me, this approach has made Genesis more valid and valuable then it was before
also, i think it will help if we start finding a way to come to terms with the ethnocentric (i.e. racial) boundaries of the book
and maybe we will appreciate the depth and beauty of jewish thought even more
and no...i am not talking about merely knowing one's way around concordances and lexicons
...but perhaps finally understanding that much broader range of attitudes around story and scripture and religion and ritual, in general
and no..this is not the same as legalism and a return to law...but a more genuine appreciation of the arts and literature and practices that actually exists on the topic
...and yes, there is a lot ...which is as much good news as it is bad news, of course
but i think we have gone way too far in our estimation of what we think we can know from way too little information
...and this is causing a lot of trouble and confusion in our world...and in our lives
and...i know it might be a stretch for many...but i sincerely implore you all to stretch your wings a bit on these ideas
not sure how else to say it
but so as not to kill the thread...and the whole doctrinal section
i will take my leave unless i am called to the carpet for my words
peace
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
cman, you're correct in that the Bible doesn't specifically refer to what happened to Adam as the "Fall." It's a theological term used to describe a condition -- that being -- going from a higher plane of existence to a lower one. From a spiritual plane to a senses one. Thus a fall. It works for me.
I'm not sure what source you rely on to conclude that Adam's transgression "had to happen." Can you cite it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Larry this is not cited anywhere.
Why is dieing that day thought to be a bad thing.
Didn't Jesus die and accomplish a great deal?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Perhaps one should look up dieing, die, death and see what it actually means.
Scripturally that is, besides the tons of info available at our finger tips that remain untapped.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.