Danny, I see you took my suggestion to heart. Good for you.
I think a good place to start would be to closely consider verse 19 of chapter 2 of Genesis where it says: "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it." This is what I was referring to in the other thread concerning Adam "working" prior to his expulsion from Eden. Physiologically, it's normal to perspire when you exert yourself. If we didn't the body would get overheated leading to possible death. Like I said previously, I can't imagine Adam not sweating prior to the "Fall."
I'm not sure where you come up with the notion that the "devil" had many conversations with Eve prior to the temptation recorded in chapter three. I suppose it's possible. Not every detail of events that have occurred have been preserved for our info -- only that which we need.
I've read somewhere that some believe Cain was offspring of the devil. That is why Eve was "the mother of all living" and Adam was not referred to as the "father of all living." They gave the reason to why Cain was so upset and not giving God a good offering was he was jealous of Abel being the true son of Adam.
I've read somewhere that some believe Cain was offspring of the devil. That is why Eve was "the mother of all living" and Adam was not referred to as the "father of all living." They gave the reason to why Cain was so upset and not giving God a good offering was he was jealous of Abel being the true son of Adam.
In comparing Genesis 4, verses 3 through 5 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell." with Genesis 3:17 ". . . cursed is the ground for thy sake . . . ." I've always thought that the reason God rejected Cain's offering was due to the fact that God called the ground cursed and therefore anything offered to God from it would be sort of a slap in His face.
Speaking of the cursed ground -- I've got to get back to pulling weeds outta my garden. :)
In comparing Genesis 4, verses 3 through 5 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell." with Genesis 3:17 ". . . cursed is the ground for thy sake . . . ." I've always thought that the reason God rejected Cain's offering was due to the fact that God called the ground cursed and therefore anything offered to God from it would be sort of a slap in His face.
Speaking of the cursed ground -- I've got to get back to pulling weeds outta my garden. :)
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door: and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
If Cain knew what would please God, why didn't he do it?
Like children before they were kicked out of the garden.
The devil having many talks with Eve before the fruit day.
Could of been in the garden for years before fruit day.
How long a period these talks covered isn't known. Knowing human nature I imagine it was a fairly short time span. The Bible records that Adam and Eve had regular meetings and conversations with Heavenly Father.
It would not have done Satan much good if Eve were to mention, during one of these conversations, "I have met the most interesting man in the garden, we talk about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil."
Nope, that wouldn't have been good for Satan's cause. So one or two days max.
After they were put out God said you will sweat working.
Does that mean he didn't before when he worked.
Not work like you mean, not labor, building shelters, altars, hunting, etc. Climate controlled, no dangers, food and water always available-- Most that they did was twine a vine around a tree, pick branches off the ground. All at their own pace--no timeline, or due date.
He told them Pain in child bearing.
Does that mean there was no pain for the ones they had?
No children in the Garden. In the garden they were immortal so no need for children--children are the way the species is preserved. It was after the expulsion, after death entered the picture that children became necessary. Without the expulsion none of us would have existed. The LDS church teaches that Eve's disobedience was a necessary part of God's plan--for without it Adam and Eve would have never left the garden and none of us would hever have been born in human bodies.
If Cain knew what would please God, why didn't he do it?
I think the simple answer would be -- because he had free-will. Free-will is what got Adam & Eve in trouble but, without it no one can really and truly love God. We ain't robots -- thank God.
Related (in my head to this is) -- Cain didn't become a murderer over-night. His heart had to have been cultivating evil thoughts before he did the deed. How long those evil thoughts were growing inside him I cannot say but, I can imagine he entertained them before he made his offering. I'm not sure Cain was really motivated to please God. Maybe, he was angry that he never got to live in the Garden of Eden. Who knows.
. . .The LDS church teaches that Eve's disobedience was a necessary part of God's plan--for without it Adam and Eve would have never left the garden and none of us would hever have been born in human bodies.
Gen 1
28 And God blessed them, Gen. 5.1, 2 and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Their original instructions were to multiply
Gen 2
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, 1 because she was taken out of Man. 2
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh
Talking about sons leaving mom and dad?
Gen 3
16 Unto the woman he said,
I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception . . .
How can you multiply something that didn't exist? One million times zero is, zero.
Gen 4
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
I think the simple answer would be -- because he had free-will. Free-will is what got Adam & Eve in trouble but, without it no one can really and truly love God. We ain't robots -- thank God.
Related (in my head to this is) -- Cain didn't become a murderer over-night. His heart had to have been cultivating evil thoughts before he did the deed. How long those evil thoughts were growing inside him I cannot say but, I can imagine he entertained them before he made his offering. I'm not sure Cain was really motivated to please God. Maybe, he was angry that he never got to live in the Garden of Eden. Who knows.
But what was the source of the evil thoughts? Yes he had free will, but God took the time to ask why he was troubled. Something was bothering him. I don't what is was either. I do agree he didn't become a murderer overnight. Thoughts have a beginning (what was Cain's?), and their cultivation takes effort. He had to have had a reason in his mind for his actions (which were yes, of his free will).
Good question. I thought about it long ago but, can't remember a thing I may have come up with. Perhaps he was referring to future when one of his brothers or sisters may eventually "bump" into him. Afterall -- they did live a very, very long life.
His own mind. Why does evil thoughts have to have a source outside one's own mind? Some things are part of our nature -- like anger, sorrow and such -- we wouldn't be human if we didn't have those emotions. However, we can choose what we do with those emotions -- rather we control them or they control us. Hope that makes some sense. I still have weeds (in my garden) I'm thinking about -- but damn! -- it's hot out there. ;)
His own mind. Why does evil thoughts have to have a source outside one's own mind? Some things are part of our nature -- like anger, sorrow and such -- we wouldn't be human if we didn't have those emotions. However, we can choose what we do with those emotions -- rather we control them or they control us. Hope that makes some sense. I still have weeds (in my garden) I'm thinking about -- but damn! -- it's hot out there. ;)
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? . . .
It was available for Cain to change. An offering has to come from the heart. Abel offered firstling lambs, Cain offered cucumbers :) . Was it the actual offering or the heart behind it? If it was the heart Cain was already giving second rate offerings and was already bitter at God. God not having respect for his offering multiplied his anger. Cain kills Abel.
If it was the physical offering that was a problem, there's other reasoning.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Eve talk with the devil three years I took a new look at my old notes a three making it complete
books to read The First Book of Adam and Eve ---Also Called — The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan , The Second Book of Adam and Eve , The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, The Gnostic Society Library - The Nag Hammadi Library - On the Origin of the World , The Book of the Secrets of Enoch, Flavius Josephus Against Apion , The Egyptians , The Book of Jasher
just some of the many books one can read
Eve brought forth her first-born son, and with him a daughter. -birth of Cain and Luluwa in 02-02-3971 BC The First Book of Adam and Eve — Also Called — The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan Book 1 74:1- 6
Birth of Abel and Aklemia Eve again conceived, and when her days were xx-xx-3968 BC The First Book of Adam and Eve — Also Called — The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan Book 1 75:11,12; 77:9
they all thus lived together in the cave in which Eve had brought forth, until Cain was fifteen years old, and Abel twelve years old. The First Book of Adam and Eve — Also Called — The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan Book 1 77:9
Cain was offspring of the devil it does say but what is the devil but Adam fleshly lust
Abel being the true son of Adam no they both were but Abel follower Adam like a son out of love but Cain fought against Adam like he wanted to rule over Adam
respect came to Abel because he gave with love but Adam had to make Cain give
if they were to fill the earth with mankind they had need of children but the body must be ready too
Cain was worried about self Cain push all Adam's buttons while Abel did as Adam said out of love
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
ps I updated my time line with a more detail 1st 1,000 years
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 ¶ And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Cain must've been already married when he was cast out.
That's interesting Roy. I guess what your saying is true they were probably born as a husband-wife package.
Bolshevik: 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Does this word "but" have any significance?
Actually the whole phrase seems important for some reason. Perhaps a background understanding of culture might shed some light on the subject. I've always thought most during that time were nomads. Growing food would seem to require one to stay put in one place. After spending a lot of time in my garden (and still having much to do) I think I'd rather herd sheep. :)
"And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground."
I wonder what the phrase is trying to indicate. You're suggesting that Abel possibly had the easier work? hmm. If he was the favored son he would probably be given the easier, possibly more respected jobs. Maybe this is how Cain's jealousy began to develop.
His own mind. Why does evil thoughts have to have a source outside one's own mind? Some things are part of our nature -- like anger, sorrow and such -- we wouldn't be human if we didn't have those emotions. However, we can choose what we do with those emotions -- rather we control them or they control us. Hope that makes some sense. I still have weeds (in my garden) I'm thinking about -- but damn! -- it's hot out there. ;)
Where did that nature come from? If god is perfect and knows everything, and exists outside of time, he would know what our thoughts are and must have intentionally created humans to have anger, sorrow, etc and known how they would be used and how we would suffer as a result. He also should have had the power to help us avoid the suffering, but didn't for some reason.
This kind of stuff is part of the reason why I'm an atheist. It takes too much jumping through hoops to try to apply logic and justify the belief in any existence of gods and their alleged actions.
This kind of stuff is part of the reason why I'm an atheist. It takes too much jumping through hoops to try to apply logic and justify the belief in any existence of gods and their alleged actions.
Ah, but do you believe in the existance of government bodies?
Where did that nature come from? If god is perfect and knows everything, and exists outside of time, he would know what our thoughts are and must have intentionally created humans to have anger, sorrow, etc and known how they would be used and how we would suffer as a result. He also should have had the power to help us avoid the suffering, but didn't for some reason.
This kind of stuff is part of the reason why I'm an atheist. It takes too much jumping through hoops to try to apply logic and justify the belief in any existence of gods and their alleged actions.
I can't imagine what life would be like without emotions. Can you? Nothing wrong with emotions per se. So I can see why God would create us with the capacity to feel a broad spectrum of emotions and thus the answer to your question (as far as I'm concerned) is -- that nature comes from God.
Now as to whether God "knows everything" I think that theology comes from one of the early "Church Fathers" -- can't remember which one but, I'm not referring to those of the early first century. More likely the 3rd. I don't believe God "knows everything". However I think, like us, He can pretty much figure out outcomes of events given certain variables. First instance, we as parents, can know what our children will do in a given situation most or some of the time. Multiply that ability a thousand or a million fold and that's where I think God's foreknowledge comes into play. There are too many examples in the Bible for me to be convinced that God "knows everything". Just can't think of them off the top of my head.
I've spent a great deal of time discussing (on line) theology and philosophy with atheists. As a result I've gained a lot of respect for them. Have you ever heard of the SecWeb?
28 And God blessed them, Gen. 5.1, 2 and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Their original instructions were to multiply
Gen 5 is after the fall--"be frutiful and mulitiply"--while the context appears to be pre fall- the garden is actually an aside indicating before and after written to give context to the instructions. An aside that would have made perfect sense to Jews well steeped inthe traditions of their fathers.
You can tell from the writing styles that Genesis was the work of at least two authors--probably more--this was all oral tradition for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, before it was written down and codified into a "book". This means it hops around in the timeline --Children came after the fall.
Too think about it another way--If there had been no fall, and therefore NO DEATH, and every species, including man, were happily being "fruitful and multiplying" {aside from being a great boon to the genealogist } can anyone say Global Over Population???
Gen 2
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, 1 because she was taken out of Man. 2
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh
Talking about sons leaving mom and dad?
Talking about children leaving and mom and dad letting them go. Nuclear family-father, mother, children, is the building block of all societies. Grandparents , aunts, uncles, cousins, and siblings of the parents of a nuclear family may all share the same roof. But they should remain separate nuclear groups come together for the common good.
The more family in one space the more vital it is for there to be clear cut boundaries as to who is "in charge" of what and whom. Just as a business will fail, if the employees are constantly being told what to do by different bosses with different goals and agendas, whether by inefficiency or in ability to keep employees-- so will extended families implode if children are answerable to more than one set of parents and grown children are trying to simultaneously honor the wishes of spouse and parents.
.
Gen 3
16 Unto the woman he said,
I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception . . .
How can you multiply something that didn't exist? One million times zero is, zero.
having been banished from the garden Eve knew sorrow. Having eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil she knew those feeling, emotions and ideas we view as "sorrow'.I agree that in terms of conception a totally new concept of an event had never taken place before-"multiply is not the best word to use for the understanding of contemporary American English speakers.
But, we are talking King James English here--this idiomatic way of expressing the idea was understood by everyone. "Sorrow" was multiplied and since we are now in the plural tense "thy conception" referred to the eventuality of multiple conceptions and births.
Gen 4
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Who is Cain worried about?
"thou" is God --for it is God who has marked Cain and decreed his punishment.
Humanity, then, was not found world wide. We are talking a group of people that were all related by blood within say, three generations at most, if some of Cain and Abels younger sisters and brothers had already had children. They probably covered an area of maybe a hundred square miles all told.
I am Cain-- I killed my brother Abel-- every other person living on the face of the earth is either my father, mother, sister, brother, niece or nephew. THEY ALL KNOW-- and they all are, maybe a couple of exceptions, REALLY PO'D wiith me. Murder as an action has been introduced, never been done before, but now everyone knows it CAN BE!!!
Yup I'd be plenty worried about running into any of these folks. Even if they actually wouldn't kill me, my guilt would convince me otherwise.
**TL returns having forgot to address apoint made by other posters, returns**
By this time in history "sacrifice" had been introduced. Adam made an altar to the Lord as one of the first acts after he and Eve were forced out of the garden. The spilling of blood was the highest offering man could give to God. The blood atonement of sacrificed animals was how Adam and all the generation after him until Jesus Christ, became "clean" before Heavenly Father.
That being the case-- Cain knew that when offerings were made to God --Animals were appropriate sacrifice. Being a tiller of the ground was not a sin in and of itself. Growing foodstuffs for his family and livestock was perfectly fine with God. But when it came time to offer sacrifice to the Lord--then an animal was required. Abel simply took from his flocks--Cain having raised no animals himself--should have gone and purchased one from Abel. Instead Cain offered as a sacrifice something that was not only not acceptable to God but something Cain knew had no life blood and therefore could not "cleanse".
That was Cain's sin-- He tried to make God change the rules just for him. He tried to make a religious rite, to honor and appease God, into a personal competition between him and his brother Abel.
God knew Cain knew better. God knew Cain knew it wasn't about whether Cain grew vegetables better than Abel raised sheep but rather about giving God His due.
That is why He rebuked Cain saying "if thou doest well...."
Gen 5 is after the fall--"be frutiful and mulitiply"--while the context appears to be pre fall- the garden is actually an aside indicating before and after written to give context to the instructions. An aside that would have made perfect sense to Jews well steeped inthe traditions of their fathers.
You can tell from the writing styles that Genesis was the work of at least two authors--probably more--this was all oral tradition for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, before it was written down and codified into a "book". This means it hops around in the timeline --Children came after the fall.
Too think about it another way--If there had been no fall, and therefore NO DEATH, and every species, including man, were happily being "fruitful and multiplying" {aside from being a great boon to the genealogist } can anyone say Global Over Population???
. . .
Interesting T.L, so even the animals didn't reproduce before the Fall of Man?
Genesis Chapter 1
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
. . .
28 And God blessed them,and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Because it looks like God told the animals to be fruitful and multiply on the Fifth Day, but this is also an aside as Gen 1:28 is?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
21
26
22
44
Popular Days
Jul 12
34
Jul 11
29
Jul 18
23
Jul 19
16
Top Posters In This Topic
Abigail 21 posts
Danny 26 posts
cman 22 posts
Larry N Moore 44 posts
Popular Days
Jul 12 2007
34 posts
Jul 11 2007
29 posts
Jul 18 2007
23 posts
Jul 19 2007
16 posts
Danny
Maybe I should of named this tread
The Power Of Suggestion.
In pfal vp said there first born being the first murder.
Does it say any where he was there first born.
It does say God has given me a man.
Sort of like he already sent me a savior.
Or maybe he looked really special or acted special.
Maybe a man because all the girls before him.
How about in that day we make it up to heaven.
Will you go looking for Adam to have a little man to man with him?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God first
Beloved Danny
God loves you my dear friend
I been thinking about this tread even since I saw it
yes it reads in another book that the devil work on her for over two years before she ate the fruit
but I forget which book
I think Adam were in the garden until age 30 but I have not read a book that saids that
yes while they were in the shade while in the garden but they were cast out to live in the open
yes they did not sweat before the only work before was reaching up for food then eating
a easy life style
lay back
cain was born when they were 30 with pain that they never had before
Adam and Eve had 60 children so they made of had some without pain I do not know
there books that tell us how many children but again I not sure which ones
VP did not know from what I recalled he just used the work of others
I do not know 100 per cent either but I think Cain was first but to say think is only a guess
yes "Maybe a man because all the girls before him"
I have done talk to Adam image to image
keep "thinking a lot " it helps God work with you as he has here
I say a girl was first
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
Danny, I see you took my suggestion to heart. Good for you.
I think a good place to start would be to closely consider verse 19 of chapter 2 of Genesis where it says: "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it." This is what I was referring to in the other thread concerning Adam "working" prior to his expulsion from Eden. Physiologically, it's normal to perspire when you exert yourself. If we didn't the body would get overheated leading to possible death. Like I said previously, I can't imagine Adam not sweating prior to the "Fall."
I'm not sure where you come up with the notion that the "devil" had many conversations with Eve prior to the temptation recorded in chapter three. I suppose it's possible. Not every detail of events that have occurred have been preserved for our info -- only that which we need.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I've read somewhere that some believe Cain was offspring of the devil. That is why Eve was "the mother of all living" and Adam was not referred to as the "father of all living." They gave the reason to why Cain was so upset and not giving God a good offering was he was jealous of Abel being the true son of Adam.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
In comparing Genesis 4, verses 3 through 5 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell." with Genesis 3:17 ". . . cursed is the ground for thy sake . . . ." I've always thought that the reason God rejected Cain's offering was due to the fact that God called the ground cursed and therefore anything offered to God from it would be sort of a slap in His face.
Speaking of the cursed ground -- I've got to get back to pulling weeds outta my garden. :)
Edited by Larry N MooreLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door: and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
If Cain knew what would please God, why didn't he do it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
How long a period these talks covered isn't known. Knowing human nature I imagine it was a fairly short time span. The Bible records that Adam and Eve had regular meetings and conversations with Heavenly Father.
It would not have done Satan much good if Eve were to mention, during one of these conversations, "I have met the most interesting man in the garden, we talk about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil."
Nope, that wouldn't have been good for Satan's cause. So one or two days max.
Not work like you mean, not labor, building shelters, altars, hunting, etc. Climate controlled, no dangers, food and water always available-- Most that they did was twine a vine around a tree, pick branches off the ground. All at their own pace--no timeline, or due date.No children in the Garden. In the garden they were immortal so no need for children--children are the way the species is preserved. It was after the expulsion, after death entered the picture that children became necessary. Without the expulsion none of us would have existed. The LDS church teaches that Eve's disobedience was a necessary part of God's plan--for without it Adam and Eve would have never left the garden and none of us would hever have been born in human bodies.
Edited by templeladyLink to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
I think the simple answer would be -- because he had free-will. Free-will is what got Adam & Eve in trouble but, without it no one can really and truly love God. We ain't robots -- thank God.
Related (in my head to this is) -- Cain didn't become a murderer over-night. His heart had to have been cultivating evil thoughts before he did the deed. How long those evil thoughts were growing inside him I cannot say but, I can imagine he entertained them before he made his offering. I'm not sure Cain was really motivated to please God. Maybe, he was angry that he never got to live in the Garden of Eden. Who knows.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Gen 1
28 And God blessed them, Gen. 5.1, 2 and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Their original instructions were to multiply
Gen 2
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, 1 because she was taken out of Man. 2
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh
Talking about sons leaving mom and dad?
Gen 3
16 Unto the woman he said,
I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception . . .
How can you multiply something that didn't exist? One million times zero is, zero.
Gen 4
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Who is Cain worried about?
Edited by BolshevikLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
But what was the source of the evil thoughts? Yes he had free will, but God took the time to ask why he was troubled. Something was bothering him. I don't what is was either. I do agree he didn't become a murderer overnight. Thoughts have a beginning (what was Cain's?), and their cultivation takes effort. He had to have had a reason in his mind for his actions (which were yes, of his free will).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
Good question. I thought about it long ago but, can't remember a thing I may have come up with. Perhaps he was referring to future when one of his brothers or sisters may eventually "bump" into him. Afterall -- they did live a very, very long life.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
His own mind. Why does evil thoughts have to have a source outside one's own mind? Some things are part of our nature -- like anger, sorrow and such -- we wouldn't be human if we didn't have those emotions. However, we can choose what we do with those emotions -- rather we control them or they control us. Hope that makes some sense. I still have weeds (in my garden) I'm thinking about -- but damn! -- it's hot out there. ;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? . . .
It was available for Cain to change. An offering has to come from the heart. Abel offered firstling lambs, Cain offered cucumbers :) . Was it the actual offering or the heart behind it? If it was the heart Cain was already giving second rate offerings and was already bitter at God. God not having respect for his offering multiplied his anger. Cain kills Abel.
If it was the physical offering that was a problem, there's other reasoning.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Does this word "but" have any significance?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God first
Beloved all
God loves us all my dear friends
Eve talk with the devil three years I took a new look at my old notes a three making it complete
books to read The First Book of Adam and Eve ---Also Called — The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan , The Second Book of Adam and Eve , The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, The Gnostic Society Library - The Nag Hammadi Library - On the Origin of the World , The Book of the Secrets of Enoch, Flavius Josephus Against Apion , The Egyptians , The Book of Jasher
just some of the many books one can read
Eve brought forth her first-born son, and with him a daughter. -birth of Cain and Luluwa in 02-02-3971 BC The First Book of Adam and Eve — Also Called — The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan Book 1 74:1- 6
Birth of Abel and Aklemia Eve again conceived, and when her days were xx-xx-3968 BC The First Book of Adam and Eve — Also Called — The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan Book 1 75:11,12; 77:9
they all thus lived together in the cave in which Eve had brought forth, until Cain was fifteen years old, and Abel twelve years old. The First Book of Adam and Eve — Also Called — The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan Book 1 77:9
Cain was offspring of the devil it does say but what is the devil but Adam fleshly lust
Abel being the true son of Adam no they both were but Abel follower Adam like a son out of love but Cain fought against Adam like he wanted to rule over Adam
respect came to Abel because he gave with love but Adam had to make Cain give
if they were to fill the earth with mankind they had need of children but the body must be ready too
Cain was worried about self Cain push all Adam's buttons while Abel did as Adam said out of love
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
ps I updated my time line with a more detail 1st 1,000 years
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 ¶ And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Cain must've been already married when he was cast out.
That's interesting Roy. I guess what your saying is true they were probably born as a husband-wife package.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God first
Beloved Bolshevik
God loves you my dear friend
husband-wife package might be right
but I think Cain wanted the sister born with Abel and they fought over which sister they would get
yes Cain won the fight in the end
but I do not know 100 per cent because I have to re read so must
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Can't argue with that as being a possible scenario.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
Actually the whole phrase seems important for some reason. Perhaps a background understanding of culture might shed some light on the subject. I've always thought most during that time were nomads. Growing food would seem to require one to stay put in one place. After spending a lot of time in my garden (and still having much to do) I think I'd rather herd sheep. :)
Edited by Larry N MooreLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
"And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground."
I wonder what the phrase is trying to indicate. You're suggesting that Abel possibly had the easier work? hmm. If he was the favored son he would probably be given the easier, possibly more respected jobs. Maybe this is how Cain's jealousy began to develop.
Edited by BolshevikLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
Where did that nature come from? If god is perfect and knows everything, and exists outside of time, he would know what our thoughts are and must have intentionally created humans to have anger, sorrow, etc and known how they would be used and how we would suffer as a result. He also should have had the power to help us avoid the suffering, but didn't for some reason.
This kind of stuff is part of the reason why I'm an atheist. It takes too much jumping through hoops to try to apply logic and justify the belief in any existence of gods and their alleged actions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Ah, but do you believe in the existance of government bodies?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
I can't imagine what life would be like without emotions. Can you? Nothing wrong with emotions per se. So I can see why God would create us with the capacity to feel a broad spectrum of emotions and thus the answer to your question (as far as I'm concerned) is -- that nature comes from God.
Now as to whether God "knows everything" I think that theology comes from one of the early "Church Fathers" -- can't remember which one but, I'm not referring to those of the early first century. More likely the 3rd. I don't believe God "knows everything". However I think, like us, He can pretty much figure out outcomes of events given certain variables. First instance, we as parents, can know what our children will do in a given situation most or some of the time. Multiply that ability a thousand or a million fold and that's where I think God's foreknowledge comes into play. There are too many examples in the Bible for me to be convinced that God "knows everything". Just can't think of them off the top of my head.
I've spent a great deal of time discussing (on line) theology and philosophy with atheists. As a result I've gained a lot of respect for them. Have you ever heard of the SecWeb?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
Gen 5 is after the fall--"be frutiful and mulitiply"--while the context appears to be pre fall- the garden is actually an aside indicating before and after written to give context to the instructions. An aside that would have made perfect sense to Jews well steeped inthe traditions of their fathers.
You can tell from the writing styles that Genesis was the work of at least two authors--probably more--this was all oral tradition for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, before it was written down and codified into a "book". This means it hops around in the timeline --Children came after the fall.
Too think about it another way--If there had been no fall, and therefore NO DEATH, and every species, including man, were happily being "fruitful and multiplying" {aside from being a great boon to the genealogist
} can anyone say Global Over Population???
Talking about children leaving and mom and dad letting them go. Nuclear family-father, mother, children, is the building block of all societies. Grandparents , aunts, uncles, cousins, and siblings of the parents of a nuclear family may all share the same roof. But they should remain separate nuclear groups come together for the common good.The more family in one space the more vital it is for there to be clear cut boundaries as to who is "in charge" of what and whom. Just as a business will fail, if the employees are constantly being told what to do by different bosses with different goals and agendas, whether by inefficiency or in ability to keep employees-- so will extended families implode if children are answerable to more than one set of parents and grown children are trying to simultaneously honor the wishes of spouse and parents.
having been banished from the garden Eve knew sorrow. Having eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil she knew those feeling, emotions and ideas we view as "sorrow'.I agree that in terms of conception a totally new concept of an event had never taken place before-"multiply is not the best word to use for the understanding of contemporary American English speakers.
But, we are talking King James English here--this idiomatic way of expressing the idea was understood by everyone. "Sorrow" was multiplied and since we are now in the plural tense "thy conception" referred to the eventuality of multiple conceptions and births.
"thou" is God --for it is God who has marked Cain and decreed his punishment.
Humanity, then, was not found world wide. We are talking a group of people that were all related by blood within say, three generations at most, if some of Cain and Abels younger sisters and brothers had already had children. They probably covered an area of maybe a hundred square miles all told.
I am Cain-- I killed my brother Abel-- every other person living on the face of the earth is either my father, mother, sister, brother, niece or nephew. THEY ALL KNOW-- and they all are, maybe a couple of exceptions, REALLY PO'D wiith me. Murder as an action has been introduced, never been done before, but now everyone knows it CAN BE!!!
Yup I'd be plenty worried about running into any of these folks. Even if they actually wouldn't kill me, my guilt would convince me otherwise.
**TL returns having forgot to address apoint made by other posters, returns**
By this time in history "sacrifice" had been introduced. Adam made an altar to the Lord as one of the first acts after he and Eve were forced out of the garden. The spilling of blood was the highest offering man could give to God. The blood atonement of sacrificed animals was how Adam and all the generation after him until Jesus Christ, became "clean" before Heavenly Father.
That being the case-- Cain knew that when offerings were made to God --Animals were appropriate sacrifice. Being a tiller of the ground was not a sin in and of itself. Growing foodstuffs for his family and livestock was perfectly fine with God. But when it came time to offer sacrifice to the Lord--then an animal was required. Abel simply took from his flocks--Cain having raised no animals himself--should have gone and purchased one from Abel. Instead Cain offered as a sacrifice something that was not only not acceptable to God but something Cain knew had no life blood and therefore could not "cleanse".
That was Cain's sin-- He tried to make God change the rules just for him. He tried to make a religious rite, to honor and appease God, into a personal competition between him and his brother Abel.
God knew Cain knew better. God knew Cain knew it wasn't about whether Cain grew vegetables better than Abel raised sheep but rather about giving God His due.
That is why He rebuked Cain saying "if thou doest well...."
Edited by templeladyLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Interesting T.L, so even the animals didn't reproduce before the Fall of Man?
Because it looks like God told the animals to be fruitful and multiply on the Fifth Day, but this is also an aside as Gen 1:28 is?
Edited by BolshevikLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.