IMHO, I really wish the moderators of this site would censure this garbage. Because this really isn't about VPW. It's about the relentless rantings of some people who never had the courage to stand up to VPW while he was alive, but now some 17 years later after his death, hide under handles, needing to massage their own ever inflating cowardly egos and elevating their self-propagating sinless existences by their endless overly-pious putdowns and diatribes directed toward folks like me, who still respect VPW for teaching the Word.
If I started "censures", I would have to do it on both sides. Granted there are very passionate discussions all the time. Very Very few of the people here are "people who never had the courage to stand up to VPW when he was alive" I will always allow both sides to state their positions.
"Handles" This has been discussed lately. I will always honor someone's right to use a handle. It is very useful. If you use your real name and a search is done of your name, this site will show up. Many people don't want to broadcast their real name in association with a discussion board on the internet. This has been the case for many years. I don't understand why so many equate a screenname with lack of courage, honesty or integrity. It is an empty arguement, in my opinion.
I don't understand why so many equate a screenname with lack of courage, honesty or integrity. It is an empty arguement, in my opinion.
Pawtucket, it's really no big deal. However, some people have been known to register multiple user IDs for purposes that aren't exactly honest. Even if you were to track IP addresses of those who post here there's ways around that as well. Proxy servers are a dime a dozen. I suppose if someone wanted to start crap with someone in a manner which isn't typical for them to do having multiple IDs would be the way to go. But, like I said (even though I personally have seen this done) -- it's no big deal to me.
WW, whenever you accuse someone of something the potential for creating controversy always exist. I don't remember what started this whole affair and I just stepped in when I read Bluesman's request for verification of your accusation. I still don't consider it (your accusation) a fair assessment of what I read in the other thread -- not being able to see what you were talking about -- but so what. I'm convinced no ones opinion will be changed irregardless of what is true or false. It is just what it is.
...and I don't really care if it's 17 years, 25 years or 100 years after his death...
if there are still people out there practicing his controlling, perverted brand of religion it should be exposed...
...not defended. IMO of course.
The only problem is you think your IMO opinion is good enough to teach other people a lesson. I’ve got news for you. You're not the only person who considers their opinion more relevant and above somebody else's. But let me tell you what your opinion says about you. It says you are making a complete a$$ of yourself deciding you’re the expert on Dr. Wierwille. But you aren't the only one out there making an a$$ of themselves over him. Some people never met the man and they now think they know everything there is to know because they were easily swayed by some jerk's opinion of him. I on the other hand did meet Dr. Wierwille on a number of occassions, and I still don’t claim to be the expert on him like many out there on the internet claim to be and what they want others to believe.
There is this one thing I learned about Dr. Wierwille after I met him, and what I learned was good enough for me. That is, Dr. Wierwille didn’t give his life to drivel down to morons like those who attack him do. I am sure there are people who will respond to this post with a snappy comeback which I can expect from them. But only a fool draws a snap judgment so don’t expect a snappy comment in return as I am addressing my remarks to talk to intelligent people – not morons! Just what lesson do they hope to teach us by their coward's attack?
Do they want us to respect their cause? - They just damned their cause.
Do they want to make us fear? - They just steel our resolve.
Do they want to tear us apart? - They just bring us together.
I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know the truth, as you, I think do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble because there will always be recrimination - even among those on the inside. There will always be someone’s accusation and finger pointing to determine just whose failure allowed this thing or that thing to happen, and what can be done to prevent it from ever happening again. The steel inside us is not readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us.
So I ask you again - what is it that you hope to teach us by your highly over-inflated opinion and your cowards attack? It seems to me you just want us to know the depth of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. But take this message in return:
We are not about trying to recapture the past or trying to recapture the good-old-by-gone days with our heads filled with nostalgia. No! We are looking forward to the future which our God has in store for us. If Dr. Wierwille’s life and ministry stood for anything, it stood for integrity in every breath of Christian living! Please don't misunderstand. I am not here to "toot Dr. Wierwille's horn" by proclaiming or suggesting he is/was the perfect example to follow because he was always perfect at it - but only that he strove to do so. I know that is what he did - because that is what he taught us to do. That is why you don’t know us or the truth! You don’t know what we are capable of, and you don’t know what you’ve started. But you are about to learn!!
did he really say that ? i have to go back (double )
That is why you don’t know us or the truth! You don’t know what we are capable of, and you don’t know what you’ve started. But you are about to learn!!
The only problem is you think your IMO opinion is good enough to teach other people a lesson. I’ve got news for you. You're not the only person who considers their opinion more relevant and above somebody else's. But let me tell you what your opinion says about you. It says you are making a complete a$$ of yourself deciding you’re the expert on Dr. Wierwille.
No, it says we have an opinion and we are no longer afraid to express it. I don't think anyone here has declared themself a big expert... just folks firmly saying what they know and what they experienced, and not letting others talk them out of it. If that's different from what you experienced. Good for you. You were lucky.
There is this one thing I learned about Dr. Wierwille after I met him, and what I learned was good enough for me. That is, Dr. Wierwille didn’t give his life to drivel down to morons like those who attack him do.
Hmm... just how did you learn this after you met him? What are you so afraid of that you resort to calling those of us who have our own stories and experiences with Doc Vic "morons"? We may not agree with yours, but we don't resort to name-calling, which I consider to be the most immature, least intelligent way in which to argue your point. If you have real points to make, please do. I appreciate hearing things here from all sides. Sometimes it reinforces what I already think, and sometimes it (((gasp))) causes me to change my thinking!!!
I am sure there are people who will respond to this post with a snappy comeback which I can expect from them. But only a fool draws a snap judgment so don’t expect a snappy comment in return as I am addressing my remarks to talk to intelligent people – not morons! Just what lesson do they hope to teach us by their coward's attack?
Okay, just what constitutes a "snap judgement"? It took some of us YEARS to make a decision about VP, and for some of us (while we may be leaning one way) the verdict STILL isn't really in. We are still trying to understand a man who could be so different to so many people.
I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know the truth, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me.
Wow, almost too much here to address... you have no fear of contradiction because you KNOW the truth as other do not. Well, yippy-skippy for you, I guess. Personally, I "KNOW" that you are sadly mistaken. Which of us is right? Obviously you think you are, and well, yeah, I kinda think I am... can't we just leave it at that?
It also causes me to tremble because there will always be recrimination - even among those on the inside.
Just who is on the inside? Us? You? Them? Others?
There will always be someone’s accusation and finger pointing to determine just whose failure allowed this thing or that thing to happen, and what can be done to prevent it from ever happening again.
Aaaaannnnnd.... the problem with trying to understand and avoid the same mistakes again iiiiissss.....????
The steel inside us is not readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us.
oooh... color me scared
So I ask you again - what is it that you hope to teach us by your highly over-inflated opinion and your cowards attack? It seems to me you just want us to know the depth of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. But take this message in return: We are not about trying to recapture the past or trying to recapture the good-old-by-gone days with our heads filled with nostalgia. No! We are looking forward to the future which our God has in store for us.
Look, no one is looking to "teach" you anything. It is your own aggressive, up-front personality that takes what other people post here that way. The rest of us are just enjoying the freedom of being able to vent and say what we really think after YEARS of being suppressed mentally, emotionally, and spiritually by the tenets set up by the guy you think is so great.
If Dr. Wierwille’s life and ministry stood for anything, it stood for integrity in every breath of Christian living! Please don't misunderstand. I am not here to "toot Dr. Wierwille's horn" by proclaiming or suggesting he is/was the perfect example to follow because he was always perfect at it - but only that he strove to do so. I know that is what he did - because that is what he taught us to do. That is why you don’t know us or the truth!
I don't KNOW why he taught what he taught, because I couldn't climb inside his head and neither could you. I'd rather SEE a sermon than HEAR one any day, and I'm sorry, but the example this man set by his own actions was so contradictory to what he taught, it is way beyond "oops, he was trying his best but goss-o-jeepers he just messed up because he's human". This man routinely preyed on the people around him. He systematically black-listed anyone who disagreed with him. He taught his highest ranking pupils to follow in his perverted footsteps. These are the documentable results of his actions. Can you say the same of your claim?
You don’t know what we are capable of, and you don’t know what you’ve started. But you are about to learn!!
This sounds like a threat. Is that really necessary? You cannot take a heated discussion without resorting to THIS?
NO ONE here, yoseff included, will pronounce the FINAL judgment on vic, or anyone else, for that matter... but we do get to decide, based on our own insight, what we consider him to have been---patriarch or self-promoter extroardinaire. And some here certainlyknew the man far more than you did. He was not the altruistic champion you still seem to want so desperately to believe him to be...
And YOU are the gawd-given one to set us all straight, eh??? yep, you just keep tellin' yoseff that, boy-o.....
Hmmm...there are two kinds of opinions, at least -
A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.
A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
An opinion expressed can be either, both, or a combination I would think. It could be based on expert knowledge, but not substantiated in detail at the time it's given.
A person could say "it's my opinion that it was warm today, but not so as to be uncomfortable, it felt quite comfortable".
No temperature is quoted, no description of the person's activity levels, what they wore or did, or what time they did it.
That doesn't make it any less "true". It is, in fact, true for the person that said it. They are an "expert" giving their "opinion" on what the temperature felt like to them today.
There will be people who disagree - "it felt muggy to me, kind of hot", and that could indeed be true, it may have been "muggy".
So the weather is whatever it is and people react to it differently. I could tell the person all day long "it WAS HOT and HUMID, and it was 83 degrees", and the reasonable response would be "fine, if you say so, but I didn't feel hot". And that's that.
IMO, opinions are and can be very valid. It isn't valid to view them as "they're just opinions, so what, they don't mean anything". They can mean a lot, if discussed and considered. Why does a person have the opinion they do. Why do the feel a certain way about something? It can beworth finding out.
NO ONE here, yoseff included, will pronounce the FINAL judgment on vic, or anyone else, for that matter... but we do get to decide, based on our own insight, what we consider him to have been---patriarch or self-promoter extroardinaire. And some here certainlyknew the man far more than you did. He was not the altruistic champion you still seem to want so desperately to believe him to be...
And YOU are the gawd-given one to set us all straight, eh??? yep, you just keep tellin' yoseff that, boy-o.....
just wanted to clarify there is a break between the first sentence, my reply to TheHighWay, and the rest of my post directed to wattagasbag....
I am sure there are people who will respond to this post with a snappy comeback which I can expect from them. But only a fool draws a snap judgment so don’t expect a snappy comment in return as I am addressing my remarks to talk to intelligent people – not morons! Just what lesson do they hope to teach us by their coward's attack?
(What The Hey @ Jul 12 2007, 04:33 PM)
The steel inside us is not readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us.
(What The Hey @ Jul 12 2007, 04:33 PM)
So I ask you again - what is it that you hope to teach us by your highly over-inflated opinion and your cowards attack? It seems to me you just want us to know the depth of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. But take this message in return: We are not about trying to recapture the past or trying to recapture the good-old-by-gone days with our heads filled with nostalgia. No! We are looking forward to the future which our God has in store for us.
YOUR God??!!! :o Who wants a God that can be owned?
(What The Hey @ Jul 12 2007, 04:33 PM)
You don’t know what we are capable of, and you don’t know what you’ve started. But you are about to learn!!
I met Wierwille a buncha times, too. And I think he was a jerk in reverend's clothing. I tried really hard not to believe that of him, and I certainly didn't start out thinking of him that way. But his actions spoke louder than his words.
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pawtucket
If I started "censures", I would have to do it on both sides. Granted there are very passionate discussions all the time. Very Very few of the people here are "people who never had the courage to stand up to VPW when he was alive" I will always allow both sides to state their positions.
"Handles" This has been discussed lately. I will always honor someone's right to use a handle. It is very useful. If you use your real name and a search is done of your name, this site will show up. Many people don't want to broadcast their real name in association with a discussion board on the internet. This has been the case for many years. I don't understand why so many equate a screenname with lack of courage, honesty or integrity. It is an empty arguement, in my opinion.
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Tom Strange
...and I don't really care if it's 17 years, 25 years or 100 years after his death...
if there are still people out there practicing his controlling, perverted brand of religion it should be exposed...
...not defended. IMO of course.
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Larry N Moore
Pawtucket, it's really no big deal. However, some people have been known to register multiple user IDs for purposes that aren't exactly honest. Even if you were to track IP addresses of those who post here there's ways around that as well. Proxy servers are a dime a dozen. I suppose if someone wanted to start crap with someone in a manner which isn't typical for them to do having multiple IDs would be the way to go. But, like I said (even though I personally have seen this done) -- it's no big deal to me.
WW, whenever you accuse someone of something the potential for creating controversy always exist. I don't remember what started this whole affair and I just stepped in when I read Bluesman's request for verification of your accusation. I still don't consider it (your accusation) a fair assessment of what I read in the other thread -- not being able to see what you were talking about -- but so what. I'm convinced no ones opinion will be changed irregardless of what is true or false. It is just what it is.
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What The Hey
The only problem is you think your IMO opinion is good enough to teach other people a lesson. I’ve got news for you. You're not the only person who considers their opinion more relevant and above somebody else's. But let me tell you what your opinion says about you. It says you are making a complete a$$ of yourself deciding you’re the expert on Dr. Wierwille. But you aren't the only one out there making an a$$ of themselves over him. Some people never met the man and they now think they know everything there is to know because they were easily swayed by some jerk's opinion of him. I on the other hand did meet Dr. Wierwille on a number of occassions, and I still don’t claim to be the expert on him like many out there on the internet claim to be and what they want others to believe.
There is this one thing I learned about Dr. Wierwille after I met him, and what I learned was good enough for me. That is, Dr. Wierwille didn’t give his life to drivel down to morons like those who attack him do. I am sure there are people who will respond to this post with a snappy comeback which I can expect from them. But only a fool draws a snap judgment so don’t expect a snappy comment in return as I am addressing my remarks to talk to intelligent people – not morons! Just what lesson do they hope to teach us by their coward's attack?
Do they want us to respect their cause? - They just damned their cause.
Do they want to make us fear? - They just steel our resolve.
Do they want to tear us apart? - They just bring us together.
I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know the truth, as you, I think do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble because there will always be recrimination - even among those on the inside. There will always be someone’s accusation and finger pointing to determine just whose failure allowed this thing or that thing to happen, and what can be done to prevent it from ever happening again. The steel inside us is not readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us.
So I ask you again - what is it that you hope to teach us by your highly over-inflated opinion and your cowards attack? It seems to me you just want us to know the depth of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. But take this message in return:
We are not about trying to recapture the past or trying to recapture the good-old-by-gone days with our heads filled with nostalgia. No! We are looking forward to the future which our God has in store for us. If Dr. Wierwille’s life and ministry stood for anything, it stood for integrity in every breath of Christian living! Please don't misunderstand. I am not here to "toot Dr. Wierwille's horn" by proclaiming or suggesting he is/was the perfect example to follow because he was always perfect at it - but only that he strove to do so. I know that is what he did - because that is what he taught us to do. That is why you don’t know us or the truth! You don’t know what we are capable of, and you don’t know what you’ve started. But you are about to learn!!
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Ham
Pretty big "if"..
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Larry N Moore
Not as big as some of the butts I've seen. :)
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excathedra
Hey What !
exactly what did "the doctor" GIVE his life for ?--
those he tossed aside / almost destroyed / absolutely did destroy ?
i'm knew him somewhat personally -- no snap judgment either
--
(i also read the rest where you said not to misunderstand)
INTEGRITY IN EVERY BREATH OF CHRISTIAN LIVING ?????????????????????????????????????????????
i'll say a little prayer for you
dear god,
love, a moron
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excathedra
oh sorry i didn't read what's written. you were posting to intelligent people....
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Larry N Moore
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Ham
"we"??
sounds kinda troubling to me..
maybe like Pinky and the Brain.. figuring out some way to rule the world..
if you're thinking of wreaking havoc on the world, I think a few people beat you to it..
hmm. maybe.. using your mystic powers to melt the internet?
I know.. maybe it's a class action suit, filed for all the cults of the world against places like this..
I know what loy and gang were "capable" of..
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excathedra
what are the morons about to learn ?
did he really say that ? i have to go back (double
)
ooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkkkaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
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waysider
Who are "us" and "we"?
Just askin'
Kinda reminds me of that Pink Floyd song------
Us--Us--Us
and
Them--Them--Them
What's the lesson that's about to unfold?
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Ham
and after all, we're only ordinary men..
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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Ham
I don't know if you've noticed, but the world is on fire..
If you could do ANYTHING.. I wish you'd put out this damned fire..
some of us "little people" could use some help..
:)
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TheHighWay
No, it says we have an opinion and we are no longer afraid to express it. I don't think anyone here has declared themself a big expert... just folks firmly saying what they know and what they experienced, and not letting others talk them out of it. If that's different from what you experienced. Good for you. You were lucky.
Hmm... just how did you learn this after you met him? What are you so afraid of that you resort to calling those of us who have our own stories and experiences with Doc Vic "morons"? We may not agree with yours, but we don't resort to name-calling, which I consider to be the most immature, least intelligent way in which to argue your point. If you have real points to make, please do. I appreciate hearing things here from all sides. Sometimes it reinforces what I already think, and sometimes it (((gasp))) causes me to change my thinking!!!
Okay, just what constitutes a "snap judgement"? It took some of us YEARS to make a decision about VP, and for some of us (while we may be leaning one way) the verdict STILL isn't really in. We are still trying to understand a man who could be so different to so many people.
Wow, almost too much here to address... you have no fear of contradiction because you KNOW the truth as other do not. Well, yippy-skippy for you, I guess. Personally, I "KNOW" that you are sadly mistaken. Which of us is right? Obviously you think you are, and well, yeah, I kinda think I am... can't we just leave it at that?
Just who is on the inside? Us? You? Them? Others?
Aaaaannnnnd.... the problem with trying to understand and avoid the same mistakes again iiiiissss.....????
oooh... color me scared
Look, no one is looking to "teach" you anything. It is your own aggressive, up-front personality that takes what other people post here that way. The rest of us are just enjoying the freedom of being able to vent and say what we really think after YEARS of being suppressed mentally, emotionally, and spiritually by the tenets set up by the guy you think is so great.
I don't KNOW why he taught what he taught, because I couldn't climb inside his head and neither could you. I'd rather SEE a sermon than HEAR one any day, and I'm sorry, but the example this man set by his own actions was so contradictory to what he taught, it is way beyond "oops, he was trying his best but goss-o-jeepers he just messed up because he's human". This man routinely preyed on the people around him. He systematically black-listed anyone who disagreed with him. He taught his highest ranking pupils to follow in his perverted footsteps. These are the documentable results of his actions. Can you say the same of your claim?
This sounds like a threat. Is that really necessary? You cannot take a heated discussion without resorting to THIS?
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alfakat
cogent post, TheHighWay!
nice bit o' flatulence, wattagasbag!
You tar yourself w/ the same brush, bucko...
NO ONE here, yoseff included, will pronounce the FINAL judgment on vic, or anyone else, for that matter... but we do get to decide, based on our own insight, what we consider him to have been---patriarch or self-promoter extroardinaire. And some here certainly knew the man far more than you did. He was not the altruistic champion you still seem to want so desperately to believe him to be...
And YOU are the gawd-given one to set us all straight, eh??? yep, you just keep tellin' yoseff that, boy-o.....
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Ham
Naw.. let the poor guy have five minutes of godhood.. let's see how many fires he can put out..
I really wish somebody could..
:)
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socks
Hmmm...there are two kinds of opinions, at least -
An opinion expressed can be either, both, or a combination I would think. It could be based on expert knowledge, but not substantiated in detail at the time it's given.
A person could say "it's my opinion that it was warm today, but not so as to be uncomfortable, it felt quite comfortable".
No temperature is quoted, no description of the person's activity levels, what they wore or did, or what time they did it.
That doesn't make it any less "true". It is, in fact, true for the person that said it. They are an "expert" giving their "opinion" on what the temperature felt like to them today.
There will be people who disagree - "it felt muggy to me, kind of hot", and that could indeed be true, it may have been "muggy".
So the weather is whatever it is and people react to it differently. I could tell the person all day long "it WAS HOT and HUMID, and it was 83 degrees", and the reasonable response would be "fine, if you say so, but I didn't feel hot". And that's that.
IMO, opinions are and can be very valid.
It isn't valid to view them as "they're just opinions, so what, they don't mean anything". They can mean a lot, if discussed and considered. Why does a person have the opinion they do. Why do the feel a certain way about something? It can beworth finding out.
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socks
They're ba-ack...
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alfakat
just wanted to clarify there is a break between the first sentence, my reply to TheHighWay, and the rest of my post directed to wattagasbag....
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Ham
I wonder what someone may have slipped in his coffee..
Calm down a little.. just cause you see the walls breathing doesn't mean they really are alive or something, fella..
:)
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doojable
YOUR God??!!! :o Who wants a God that can be owned?
Us. We. Our. Just who are you talking about?
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T-Bone
We are the Borg - resistance is futile.
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shazdancer
I met Wierwille a buncha times, too. And I think he was a jerk in reverend's clothing. I tried really hard not to believe that of him, and I certainly didn't start out thinking of him that way. But his actions spoke louder than his words.
Signed,
Another moron
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